Good morning all,

During a meeting amongst the tenants at CLT recently United said they were taking Concourse A phase III when it opens (around 2022).
Currently United flies to IAD/EWR/DEN/ORD/IAH on mostly E175s and CRJ-700s. They run roughly 5 mainline flights a day to EWR/ORD/DEN. From what I've seen on the ramp they typically RON 9 aircraft; 5 on gates and 4 on hardstands. Phase III is slated to have between 12 and 16 gates so the gate space is needed for the evening terminators/morning originators.

It's no secret they are the airline without a southeast hub, and while 16 gates hardly cuts it as a focus city, I do have to wonder that should this pan out if they won't start running north-south connections through here with high gate utilization.

A quick Concourse A recap:
-Phase I opened over the summer and currently houses WN/F9/B6/UA/AC/Contour
-Delta is taking Phase II that is scheduled to be open by the end of next year.
-Once Delta takes Phase II AA is taking over the old concourse A so concourse D can be strictly international flights.
-And now United has stated their intent on taking Phase III.

Thoughts?

bigb wrote:

United probably just want the gate space just to have them for their RONs. They aren’t going to set up a hub in CLT....

I don’t know why everyone is obsessed with United needing to have a SE hub....

C'mon. It's Airliners.net. The idea of a United SE hub makes them more appealing for their merger with Silver Airways.

CLT is bursting at the seams, the terminal has not had a significant addition in 20 years. Concourse D needs expansion, it was fine for Piedmont and USair but not AA. The diagonal runway takes up precious space for terminal expansion it should go. This would allow for concourses B & C to be extended too.

bigb wrote:

United probably just want the gate space just to have them for their RONs. They aren’t going to set up a hub in CLT....

I don’t know why everyone is obsessed with United needing to have a SE hub....

That would be a very expensive way to handle RON's. And the rest of the day they sit relatively unused?

The only thing I can imagine is that Kirby has convinced people there is some opportunity to add some service. Seems duplicative to the IAD hub.

UA likely has some frequent flyers in the CLT market since both UA and US were in Star Alliance prior to the AA-US merger.

While I do not expect UA to add nonstop service to any non-UA hub destinations from CLT, I could see UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service since (a) AA is currently the only airline serving any West Coast destinations nonstop from CLT, (b) SFO is a major hub for UA, (c) there are many business travelers in the San Francisco Bay Area who prefer to fly on UA instead of AA, (d) there are additional international connecting opportunities available at SFO on UA, and (e) there are significant business ties between San Francisco and Charlotte to support CLT-SFO nonstop service on UA in addition to AA.

Concourse A Phase II isn't scheduled for completion until 2023, reference the airports website which is kept updated pretty well: http://www.cltairport.com/News/Pages/De ... jects.aspx
I'm fairly certain that they haven't even started construction yet.

No way they’d set up a hublet in CLT. Now an extra gate or two I could see as to be honest they could use some more frequencies and an SFO flight, but they really don’t need but two. Maybe they meant to grow IN phase III? Or just a united club in Phase III?

CLTRampRat wrote:

Good morning all,

During a meeting amongst the tenants at CLT recently United said they were taking Concourse A phase III when it opens (around 2022).
Currently United flies to IAD/EWR/DEN/ORD/IAH on mostly E175s and CRJ-700s. They run roughly 5 mainline flights a day to EWR/ORD/DEN. From what I've seen on the ramp they typically RON 9 aircraft; 5 on gates and 4 on hardstands. Phase III is slated to have between 12 and 16 gates so the gate space is needed for the evening terminators/morning originators.

It's no secret they are the airline without a southeast hub, and while 16 gates hardly cuts it as a focus city, I do have to wonder that should this pan out if they won't start running north-south connections through here with high gate utilization.

A quick Concourse A recap:
-Phase I opened over the summer and currently houses WN/F9/B6/UA/AC/Contour
-Delta is taking Phase II that is scheduled to be open by the end of next year.
-Once Delta takes Phase II AA is taking over the old concourse A so concourse D can be strictly international flights.
-And now United has stated their intent on taking Phase III.

Thoughts?

Appreciate your fondness for CLT, but not every gate move by an airline that is not AA means they are building a hub or focus city.

To wit this other thread you started: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1406121&p=20782899#p20782899

United CLT hublet idea = dead.

I don't think they'd make CLT a hub. Not even close. If they even tried putting some effort into here, it would be less than a focus city.
Why do people keep jumping to the United (insert SE airport) hub conclusion?
Im new here, I must have missed something.

I agree with a poster above that it'll for sure help with the RONs, and probably make it a little easier for them to add say an SFO or something.

I’m confused at your statement “16 gates hardly cuts it as a focus city...” Of course it does, that would be one hell of a hub which is larger than a focus city. With that said, it’s not going to happen.

I could see expansion for additional connecting frequencies to IAD replacing any EWR RJ flights, which would have additional mainline flights. Part of rebalancing connecting flow through IAD from EWR. Doesn't make sense if you are connecting, especially west, to fly over IAD to get to EWR.

Just two months ago, you posted about hearing “credible rumors” that DL would be taking those gates and creating a hublet:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1406121&p=20782845#p20782845

FACT CHECK: CLT has the least amount of local traffic of ANY trunk hub, as it was surpassed by SLC in 2016. Yet CLT is the third largest hub in the country measured in physical same airline capacity. Given that, there’s absolutely no way any other airline would be interested in anything beyond natural expansion at CLT — they’d absolutely get crushed.

CLT is the new Fresno! United setting up a hub alongside American. Qatar and Emirates starting service. New flights coming to all kinds of Asian cities. AA planing to make it their largest hub. Delta moving Atlanta hub to Charlotte. You name it.....CLT is THE AIRPORT!!!!

You forgot to mention the hyperloop tunnel to EXE, the new LHR.

On non-facetious vein, I see UA migrating hubness from IAD to CLT. IAD has long-term expansion constraints, CLT does not. Could be UA is chasing more BoA business.

OneAA wrote:

CLT is the new Fresno! United setting up a hub alongside American. Qatar and Emirates starting service. New flights coming to all kinds of Asian cities. AA planing to make it their largest hub. Delta moving Atlanta hub to Charlotte. You name it.....CLT is THE AIRPORT!!!!

Its the second largest hub in the AA system, just behind DFW and is very profitable and has the lowest costs per passenger out of any AA’s hubs.

jfk777 wrote:

CLT is bursting at the seams, the terminal has not had a significant addition in 20 years. Concourse D needs expansion, it was fine for Piedmont and USair but not AA. The diagonal runway takes up precious space for terminal expansion it should go. This would allow for concourses B & C to be extended too.

Ground traffic is terrible at CLT. Many flights I have been on after landing take 15-25 minutes to get to the gate. The taxiways were never meant to handle the number of flights at present. CLT is at maximum capacity.

Maximum Capacity can be measured in many ways. I would say just from experience that CLT is at max capacity for the current layout. One central landside makes ground transportation a nightmare, but it is being expanded. Concourses B, C and E are always very crowded and handle way to many aircraft. This will change in the future. The airport has plans to expand concourse B, C and E and add 2 more phases of concourse A. Runways and taxiways will also be modified. The potential is definitely there.

compensateme wrote:

Just two months ago, you posted about hearing “credible rumors” that DL would be taking those gates and creating a hublet:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1406121&p=20782845#p20782845

FACT CHECK: CLT has the least amount of local traffic of ANY trunk hub, as it was surpassed by SLC in 2016. Yet CLT is the third largest hub in the country measured in physical same airline capacity. Given that, there’s absolutely no way any other airline would be interested in anything beyond natural expansion at CLT — they’d absolutely get crushed.

CLT is actually the third largest single airline hub in the world, not just US.

jfk777 wrote:

Concourse D needs expansion, it was fine for Piedmont and USair but not AA.

Concourse D did not open until about a year after Piedmont merged with USAir, and it opened with only four mainline gates and a lower level for USAir Express gates. (Concourse E did not open until 2002 and D expansion was complete in 2003). Before D was a single lower level holding room with a covered open air linear pier for Piedmont's commuter flights. People Express 727s also used D with hard stand parking when they launched service from CLT-EWR in June 1985.

jplatts wrote:

UA likely has some frequent flyers in the CLT market since both UA and US were in Star Alliance prior to the AA-US merger.

While I do not expect UA to add nonstop service to any non-UA hub destinations from CLT, I could see UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service since (a) AA is currently the only airline serving any West Coast destinations nonstop from CLT, (b) SFO is a major hub for UA, (c) there are many business travelers in the San Francisco Bay Area who prefer to fly on UA instead of AA, (d) there are additional international connecting opportunities available at SFO on UA, and (e) there are significant business ties between San Francisco and Charlotte to support CLT-SFO nonstop service on UA in addition to AA.

Keep in mind that the guys in charge of UA's network (and airline operation) are ex AA, and in fact ex US guys, so at least they have a familiarity with what is possible at CLT. I don't know if this adds credibility or not, but I have seen how individual people led to greater focus in certain cities. JetBlue's focus on BOS for example was probably motivated by hires from other legacy carriers. Long list.

That is true but if UA tries to expand at CLT anything beyond non-hub flying, AA would likely do the same at DEN, IAH, or even SFO.

Flighty wrote:

jplatts wrote:

UA likely has some frequent flyers in the CLT market since both UA and US were in Star Alliance prior to the AA-US merger.

While I do not expect UA to add nonstop service to any non-UA hub destinations from CLT, I could see UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service since (a) AA is currently the only airline serving any West Coast destinations nonstop from CLT, (b) SFO is a major hub for UA, (c) there are many business travelers in the San Francisco Bay Area who prefer to fly on UA instead of AA, (d) there are additional international connecting opportunities available at SFO on UA, and (e) there are significant business ties between San Francisco and Charlotte to support CLT-SFO nonstop service on UA in addition to AA.

Keep in mind that the guys in charge of UA's network (and airline operation) are ex AA, and in fact ex US guys, so at least they have a familiarity with what is possible at CLT. I don't know if this adds credibility or not, but I have seen how individual people led to greater focus in certain cities. JetBlue's focus on BOS for example was probably motivated by hires from other legacy carriers. Long list.

Imaginations are running full time on here . Let’s be rational:

- US built CLT up as it phased out PIT, and continued to grow it even through the recession as it pioneered the strategy of utilizing larger, mainline aircraft with lower per-seat cost to pass low fares onto consumers (mimicked by DL at ATL, and being mimicked by UA at DEN).

- AA’s total hub capacity at CLT has not grown since the merger closed in December 2013. This is not a conincidence, and it is not because CLT is “bursting at the seems.” AA has continued to add new flights and destinations, but has downgauged many markets, moving many of the PMUS 319 movements to MIA and 321 to DFW. Obviously, AA believes CLT has reached saturation.

- Of all trunk hubs, CLT has the fewest local passengers - yet third-highest physical hub capacity, yielding as much as 90% connecting traffic on AA some quarters. Where are UA’s passengers going to come from?

- UA has a shortage of mainline jets, and has made it clear it’d like to continue to upgague flights and move away from RJ reliance — specifically at DEN — to remain competitive. Do you think CLT would be a priorory, especially given it costs large sums of capital to establish a consumer base?

- Do you seriously think UA is going to launch RDU-CLT-TLH on ERJ/CRJ when AA is using 319, 320 and 321 on the route?

Fact is, there’s no credible evidence to support that any other airline is interested in hubbing at CLT; the perpetual rumors on a.net are hyped by the same users and likely were manufactured by them. That CLT will serve as a hub, hublet or focus city for another into the near future is just a dream.

WPvsMW wrote:

You forgot to mention the hyperloop tunnel to EXE, the new LHR.

On non-facetious vein, I see UA migrating hubness from IAD to CLT. IAD has long-term expansion constraints, CLT does not. Could be UA is chasing more BoA business.

How does IAD have long term expansion constraints?

All this tells me is that United is seeing good yields to CLT and is committed to the market. There are people who live in United’s home markets that need to go to CLT and North Carolina has a strong economy.

I see no chance of UA intending to connect anyone through CLT. It is just a spoke, but spokes can have quite a few planes on the ground at the same time to other hubs. The true test of yields and strength in CLT will be if UA adds a nonstop CLT-SFO flight.

compensateme wrote:

- Of all trunk hubs, CLT has the fewest local passengers - yet third-highest physical hub capacity, yielding as much as 90% connecting traffic on AA some quarters. Where are UA’s passengers going to come from?

- UA has a shortage of mainline jets, and has made it clear it’d like to continue to upgague flights and move away from RJ reliance — specifically at DEN — to remain competitive. Do you think CLT would be a priorory, especially given it costs large sums of capital to establish a consumer base?

- Do you seriously think UA is going to launch RDU-CLT-TLH on ERJ/CRJ when AA is using 319, 320 and 321 on the route?

Fact is, there’s no credible evidence to support that any other airline is interested in hubbing at CLT; the perpetual rumors on a.net are hyped by the same users and likely were manufactured by them. That CLT will serve as a hub, hublet or focus city for another into the near future is just a dream.

I agree that UA is unlikely to ever add nonstop service to non-UA hub destinations such as RDU or TLH. On the other hand, I could see UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service due to UA having one of its major hubs at SFO. There are also banking industry business ties between Charlotte and San Francisco to support UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service, and there are also some business travelers in the San Francisco Bay Area who prefer to fly on UA over AA. CLT is also located in a larger market (by population) than some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to SFO on UA, including ABQ, AUS, BOI, CVG, IND, MCI, BNA, PIT, RDU, SLC, and SAT.

There is also already more O&D demand to the San Francisco Bay Area from CLT than from some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area on two or more airlines, including ABQ, BOI, CVG, MCI, RNO, SAT, and GEG.

UA would likely be able to stimulate additional demand for CLT-SFO service if it adds CLT-SFO nonstop service due to (a) banking industry ties, (b) UA FF's in the San Francisco Bay area who prefer to fly on UA over AA, and (c) CLT having more demand from SFO than some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area on 2 or more airlines.

CLTRampRat wrote:

Good morning all,

During a meeting amongst the tenants at CLT recently United said they were taking Concourse A phase III when it opens (around 2022).
Currently United flies to IAD/EWR/DEN/ORD/IAH on mostly E175s and CRJ-700s. They run roughly 5 mainline flights a day to EWR/ORD/DEN. From what I've seen on the ramp they typically RON 9 aircraft; 5 on gates and 4 on hardstands. Phase III is slated to have between 12 and 16 gates so the gate space is needed for the evening terminators/morning originators.

It's no secret they are the airline without a southeast hub, and while 16 gates hardly cuts it as a focus city, I do have to wonder that should this pan out if they won't start running north-south connections through here with high gate utilization.

A quick Concourse A recap:
-Phase I opened over the summer and currently houses WN/F9/B6/UA/AC/Contour
-Delta is taking Phase II that is scheduled to be open by the end of next year.
-Once Delta takes Phase II AA is taking over the old concourse A so concourse D can be strictly international flights.
-And now United has stated their intent on taking Phase III.

Thoughts?

Where are you getting this is DL moving concourses at CLT stuff from? All DL is doing at CLT is moving across the hall to the other side of A concourse once the renovations are finished - then AA is taking the gates DL is vacating.

jplatts wrote:

compensateme wrote:

- Of all trunk hubs, CLT has the fewest local passengers - yet third-highest physical hub capacity, yielding as much as 90% connecting traffic on AA some quarters. Where are UA’s passengers going to come from?

- UA has a shortage of mainline jets, and has made it clear it’d like to continue to upgague flights and move away from RJ reliance — specifically at DEN — to remain competitive. Do you think CLT would be a priorory, especially given it costs large sums of capital to establish a consumer base?

- Do you seriously think UA is going to launch RDU-CLT-TLH on ERJ/CRJ when AA is using 319, 320 and 321 on the route?

Fact is, there’s no credible evidence to support that any other airline is interested in hubbing at CLT; the perpetual rumors on a.net are hyped by the same users and likely were manufactured by them. That CLT will serve as a hub, hublet or focus city for another into the near future is just a dream.

I agree that UA is unlikely to ever add nonstop service to non-UA hub destinations such as RDU or TLH. On the other hand, I could see UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service due to UA having one of its major hubs at SFO. There are also banking industry business ties between Charlotte and San Francisco to support UA adding CLT-SFO nonstop service, and there are also some business travelers in the San Francisco Bay Area who prefer to fly on UA over AA. CLT is also located in a larger market (by population) than some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to SFO on UA, including ABQ, AUS, BOI, CVG, IND, MCI, BNA, PIT, RDU, SLC, and SAT.

There is also already more O&D demand to the San Francisco Bay Area from CLT than from some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area on two or more airlines, including ABQ, BOI, CVG, MCI, RNO, SAT, and GEG.

UA would likely be able to stimulate additional demand for CLT-SFO service if it adds CLT-SFO nonstop service due to (a) banking industry ties, (b) UA FF's in the San Francisco Bay area who prefer to fly on UA over AA, and (c) CLT having more demand from SFO than some of the other markets that already have nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area on 2 or more airlines.

I doubt it. CLT is a fortress hub.

UA has had decades to fly from CLT-SFO and they haven’t.

uconn99 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

You forgot to mention the hyperloop tunnel to EXE, the new LHR.

On non-facetious vein, I see UA migrating hubness from IAD to CLT. IAD has long-term expansion constraints, CLT does not. Could be UA is chasing more BoA business.

How does IAD have long term expansion constraints?

The problem is not the number of runways, or land transport access ... it's terminal facilities and the EWR/DCA/IAD dynamic.

The Dulle-bus
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/t ... ile-lounge
Incredible that the Dulle-bus (aka "mobile lounge" ????) is still faster than the aerotrain for many IAD gates .https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mid-atl ... overs.html
IDK which is more retro and annoying, the Dulle-bus at IAD or the wiki bus at HNL.

Passport Control
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... arrassment
"a national embarrassment"

Terminal condition: shabby. Third world restrooms.

Cost per emplanement: will rise after Virginia subsidies terminate, and MWAA is forced to stop DCA subsidies to IAD, given that DCA needs that money for its own improvements. https://crankyflier.com/2018/08/28/it-m ... ow-dulles/

From UA's POV, although IAD is a gold mine for international traffic, DCA is a MUCH better hub for domestic O&D and EWR is a MUCH better hub for connections. No one I know who lives inside the Beltway or south of I-66 would willingly choose IAD for a domestic flight, even a transcon flight.

UA has been trying to make IAD a connections hub (in addition to international O&D) since it was built, but EWR has ALWAYS worked better for the mid-Atlantic. I think UA will eventually abandon (if UA implements it) the proposed 6-bank scenario at IAD in favor of making CLT a connections hub... sort of an inverse ORD at CLT, with AA bigger than UA. UA can't plan on much domestic O&D at CLT (at least at the outset), just like AA didn't rely on domestic or international O&D at CLT... it's a connections strategy.

WPvsMW wrote:

uconn99 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

You forgot to mention the hyperloop tunnel to EXE, the new LHR.

On non-facetious vein, I see UA migrating hubness from IAD to CLT. IAD has long-term expansion constraints, CLT does not. Could be UA is chasing more BoA business.

How does IAD have long term expansion constraints?

The problem is not the number of runways, or land transport access ... it's terminal facilities and the EWR/DCA/IAD dynamic.

The Dulle-bus
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/t ... ile-lounge
Incredible that the Dulle-bus (aka "mobile lounge" ????) is still faster than the aerotrain for many IAD gates .https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mid-atl ... overs.html
IDK which is more retro and annoying, the Dulle-bus at IAD or the wiki bus at HNL.

Passport Control
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... arrassment
"a national embarrassment"

Terminal condition: shabby. Third world restrooms.

Cost per emplanement: will rise after Virginia subsidies terminate, and MWAA is forced to stop DCA subsidies to IAD, given that DCA needs that money for its own improvements. https://crankyflier.com/2018/08/28/it-m ... ow-dulles/

From UA's POV, although IAD is a gold mine for international traffic, DCA is a MUCH better hub for domestic O&D and EWR is a MUCH better hub for connections. No one I know who lives inside the Beltway or south of I-66 would willingly choose IAD for a domestic flight, even a transcon flight.

UA has been trying to make IAD a connections hub since it was built, but EWR has ALWAYS worked better for the mid-Atlantic. I think UA will abandon the proposed 6-bank scenario at IAD in favor of making CLT a connections hub... sort of an inverse ORD at CLT, with AA bigger than UA.

So by ‘growth by UA at IAD is hampered by capacity restrains,” you really meant that you feel UA needs a CLT hub because IAD is a dump. There’s just one major flaw with your assertion: Charlotte is not Washington, D.C.

Also, you need to educate yourself on what CPE is. It is not a check airlines to the airport, but rather a summarized average of what total costs paid by all airlines per enplanement. Most of UA’s costs at IAD are fixed, and UA’s contracted itself to these costs over the long-term. Because it’d be hubbing at a new facility in CLT, it’s going to have lease rates much higher than AA — and because it won’t have the volume of passengers (enplanments), its CPE will be higher than that of its CPE at Dulles.

I wrote "expansion constraints", not "capacity restrains" [sic].
Agreed that CPE is an accounting concept rather than a vendor. The checks written are to the components making up CPE.
Fixed costs are only fixed for the contract term.
Putting on a Chairman's hat, 20 year strategic timeline ... .has UA's failure to build a domestic connections hub at IAD over the past 56 years any predictive value, compared to what AA has done (largely courtesy of US) at CLT? Maybe CLT isn't the answer to a southeast connections hub for UA, but my premise is neither is IAD. Tried and failed. Maybe UA should buy Chester SC's airport. Huge, WWII triangular runways. Move the skydivers out.

If UA wants a hub in the southeast then they will have to build facilities regardless of where they go. I think taking on AA at CLT would be a major undertaking and not worth the effort. CHS is experiencing rapid growth but it is prone to some nasty weather during hurricane season. MEM has the facilities but a lack of local traffic. I think the only real option is BNA. They would have to contend with Southwest though. And UA certainly couldn't use any 50 seat regional jets or they will be in trouble very quickly. It would take a lot commitment but I think they could pull it off.

After the Concourse A expansion is complete, Concourse A will consist of four separate parts:

Gates A1-A13: The "old" concourse A that housed OALs. Currently only houses DL. AA will eventually take over this concourse in its entirety.
Phase I: Gates A21-29: Just opened this past summer, currently houses all OAL flights besides DL.

Phase II/III of the Concourse A expansion calls for the construction of two more piers that are more or less identical to Phase I, although I am unsure of the specific gate count at this time. Phase II gates will be exclusively for DL, as well as common use.

What I think was implied at the meeting was that UA plans to house their flights in Phase III of the airport. So the future Concourse A will look like this:

A1-A13: AA gates
A21-A29: WN/B6/F9, Common Use
AXX-XXX: DL, Common Use
AXX-XXX: UA/AC, Common Use

For simplicity sake, I wouldn't be surprised if gates A1-A13 are renamed to be part of the B Concourse.

Phase III also calls for the construction of a new terminal head house with ticketing and baggage claim for OAL flights.

I would take rumors from front line staff around the airport with a huge grain of salt. They are as reliable as flight crew rumors. Next week the person who started this thread most probably will post rumors WN is planning on a major expansion in CLT. It seems every couple of weeks these “rumors” seem to pop up, they fall in the absurd category in my opinion. I anxiously wait to see what speculation comes up on the next CLT rumor thread.

USAirALB wrote:

After the Concourse A expansion is complete, Concourse A will consist of four separate parts:

Gates A1-A13: The "old" concourse A that housed OALs. Currently only houses DL. AA will eventually take over this concourse in its entirety.
Phase I: Gates A21-29: Just opened this past summer, currently houses all OAL flights besides DL.

Phase II/III of the Concourse A expansion calls for the construction of two more piers that are more or less identical to Phase I, although I am unsure of the specific gate count at this time. Phase II gates will be exclusively for DL, as well as common use.

What I think was implied at the meeting was that UA plans to house their flights in Phase III of the airport. So the future Concourse A will look like this:

A1-A13: AA gates
A21-A29: WN/B6/F9, Common Use
AXX-XXX: DL, Common Use
AXX-XXX: UA/AC, Common Use

For simplicity sake, I wouldn't be surprised if gates A1-A13 are renamed to be part of the B Concourse.

Phase III also calls for the construction of a new terminal head house with ticketing and baggage claim for OAL flights.

I feel like I've seen in the past that the A1-A13 concourse will have its end removed to allow dual taxi-lanes on the ramp as part of this construction. Does anyone know anything about this? If so, that seems like a 4-6 gate reduction.

Where will the new terminal head house be located?

WPvsMW wrote:

uconn99 wrote:

WPvsMW wrote:

You forgot to mention the hyperloop tunnel to EXE, the new LHR.

On non-facetious vein, I see UA migrating hubness from IAD to CLT. IAD has long-term expansion constraints, CLT does not. Could be UA is chasing more BoA business.

How does IAD have long term expansion constraints?

The problem is not the number of runways, or land transport access ... it's terminal facilities and the EWR/DCA/IAD dynamic.

The Dulle-bus
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/t ... ile-lounge
Incredible that the Dulle-bus (aka "mobile lounge" ????) is still faster than the aerotrain for many IAD gates .https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mid-atl ... overs.html
IDK which is more retro and annoying, the Dulle-bus at IAD or the wiki bus at HNL.

Passport Control
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin ... arrassment
"a national embarrassment"

Terminal condition: shabby. Third world restrooms.

Cost per emplanement: will rise after Virginia subsidies terminate, and MWAA is forced to stop DCA subsidies to IAD, given that DCA needs that money for its own improvements. https://crankyflier.com/2018/08/28/it-m ... ow-dulles/

From UA's POV, although IAD is a gold mine for international traffic, DCA is a MUCH better hub for domestic O&D and EWR is a MUCH better hub for connections. No one I know who lives inside the Beltway or south of I-66 would willingly choose IAD for a domestic flight, even a transcon flight.

So... none of those are "long-term expansion constraints." And, in actuality, lots of those things are actually what gives Dulles the expansion potential. The AeroTrain is designed with growth in mind.

But none of these complaints about Dulles are new or original, and yet UA is growing at IAD and IAD remains an important international gateway.

UA has been trying to make IAD a connections hub (in addition to international O&D) since it was built, but EWR has ALWAYS worked better for the mid-Atlantic. I think UA will eventually abandon (if UA implements it) the proposed 6-bank scenario at IAD in favor of making CLT a connections hub... sort of an inverse ORD at CLT, with AA bigger than UA. UA can't plan on much domestic O&D at CLT (at least at the outset), just like AA didn't rely on domestic or international O&D at CLT... it's a connections strategy.

This is an absolutely bonkers idea. It would probably be a more effective way to lose money than just setting it on fire, I'll give you that.

ORD has two hubs because Chicago is a big market. Charlotte is not.

Fervent agreement on "IAD remains an important international gateway". My point is that UA's 56 years of trying to grow IAD as a domestic hub have been unsuccessful despite MWAA's diverting DCA revenue to support IAD, Virginia's state subsidies, adding a Silver line stop, etc. What's different now that would make a 6-bank operation succeed when a 4-bank doesn't? Seems as logical as "we lose money on each unit, but we'll make it up on volume". My premise: UA needs a plan B for the Southeast, IAD isn't it. IAD will always be constrained by the internal network dynamic of EWR/DCA/IAD, and externally by BWI, esp., WN at BWI. IMO, UA's best options are CLT, BNA, or GSO.

mikejepp wrote:

USAirALB wrote:

After the Concourse A expansion is complete, Concourse A will consist of four separate parts:

Gates A1-A13: The "old" concourse A that housed OALs. Currently only houses DL. AA will eventually take over this concourse in its entirety.
Phase I: Gates A21-29: Just opened this past summer, currently houses all OAL flights besides DL.

Phase II/III of the Concourse A expansion calls for the construction of two more piers that are more or less identical to Phase I, although I am unsure of the specific gate count at this time. Phase II gates will be exclusively for DL, as well as common use.

What I think was implied at the meeting was that UA plans to house their flights in Phase III of the airport. So the future Concourse A will look like this:

A1-A13: AA gates
A21-A29: WN/B6/F9, Common Use
AXX-XXX: DL, Common Use
AXX-XXX: UA/AC, Common Use

For simplicity sake, I wouldn't be surprised if gates A1-A13 are renamed to be part of the B Concourse.

Phase III also calls for the construction of a new terminal head house with ticketing and baggage claim for OAL flights.

I feel like I've seen in the past that the A1-A13 concourse will have its end removed to allow dual taxi-lanes on the ramp as part of this construction. Does anyone know anything about this? If so, that seems like a 4-6 gate reduction.

Where will the new terminal head house be located?

There's some pretty good info here on what the changes and timing of them at CLT are. Pretty exciting to see the growth.

http://www.cltairport.com/News/Pages/De ... jects.aspx

WPvsMW wrote:

Fervent agreement on "IAD remains an important international gateway". My point is that UA's 56 years of trying to grow IAD as a domestic hub have been unsuccessful despite MWAA's diverting DCA revenue to support IAD, Virginia's state subsidies, adding a Silver line stop, etc. What's different now that would make a 6-bank operation succeed when a 4-bank doesn't? Seems as logical as "we lose money on each unit, but we'll make it up on volume". My premise: UA needs a plan B for the Southeast, IAD isn't it. IAD will always be constrained by the internal network dynamic of EWR/DCA/IAD, and externally by BWI, esp., WN at BWI. IMO, UA's best options are CLT, BNA, or GSO.

Not going to happen.

Hello All,

First off I would like to see United add more flights into CLT but with the presences of AA its just not going to happen, that being said in terms of whats currently going on at the old concourse A is the entire north side of the concourse is closed Delta is using the entire south side, once the north is done Delta will switch back to the north side then the reconfig of the south side begins which includes wide body gates for AA

mikejepp wrote:

I feel like I've seen in the past that the A1-A13 concourse will have its end removed to allow dual taxi-lanes on the ramp as part of this construction. Does anyone know anything about this? If so, that seems like a 4-6 gate reduction.

Where will the new terminal head house be located?

In terms of a few gates being removed off the old A, I doubt they would especially since CLT needs all the gate space they can get a hold of right now, plus I think the airports main focus now that the New A phase I is done is getting the new roadway finished up and start the remodel of the front of the terminal itself

TTailedTiger wrote:

If UA wants a hub in the southeast then they will have to build facilities regardless of where they go. I think taking on AA at CLT would be a major undertaking and not worth the effort. CHS is experiencing rapid growth but it is prone to some nasty weather during hurricane season. MEM has the facilities but a lack of local traffic. I think the only real option is BNA. They would have to contend with Southwest though. And UA certainly couldn't use any 50 seat regional jets or they will be in trouble very quickly. It would take a lot commitment but I think they could pull it off.

This is literally the same thing I have always thought, lol.

56 years and counting. My point is that UA needs a domestic connex hub serving the SE (IAD isn't it and has never been it) .... or UA never penetrates the SE.

RyanCLT wrote:

Hello All,

First off I would like to see United add more flights into CLT but with the presences of AA its just not going to happen, that being said in terms of whats currently going on at the old concourse A is the entire north side of the concourse is closed Delta is using the entire south side, once the north is done Delta will switch back to the north side then the reconfig of the south side begins which includes wide body gates for AA

mikejepp wrote:

I feel like I've seen in the past that the A1-A13 concourse will have its end removed to allow dual taxi-lanes on the ramp as part of this construction. Does anyone know anything about this? If so, that seems like a 4-6 gate reduction.

Where will the new terminal head house be located?

In terms of a few gates being removed off the old A, I doubt they would especially since CLT needs all the gate space they can get a hold of right now, plus I think the airports main focus now that the New A phase I is done is getting the new roadway finished up and start the remodel of the front of the terminal itself

Actually now that I've gone and looked for it, you can see it on this future rendering that is apparently the latest plan for CLT. Old A concourse appears shortened to roughly the same length as the new A piers and has 9 gates and has dual taxilanes to the west of it on the ramp.

Though I've never seen this mentioned in writing anywhere or a timeline. Anyone have more information?

The same "shortening" is also see on D concourse.

First major thing I see wrong with that is there is no E Concourse and with all the money the Airport/AA is putting into E Con currently between renovations and expanding the concourse I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon

WPvsMW wrote:

56 years and counting. My point is that UA needs a domestic connex hub serving the SE (IAD isn't it and has never been it) .... or UA never penetrates the SE.

It was going to happen back when the Feds nixed the UA proposed takeover of US but that was before the market crash and the subsequent BK's of UA/DL/NW/AA. The combined route system of UA/US would have enabled UA to have a major hub in all areas, which it still does not have (unless one wants to consider IAD a southern hub). Regardless of AA's presence in CLT, UA could still have a small hub focused on intra-Carolina connections to SFO & DEN. It may be viable or not, but Kirby knows the pros & cons and He wouldn't think of it unless He saw a potential.

On the other hand, Bank #2 and Bank#3 in the US have "dual hubs" in both SFO & CLT. Wells Fargo, headquartered in SFO has more employees in CLT than in the Bay Area & BofA has lesser amounts in both Cities. Just by virtue of the two Banks, there should be sufficient demand for UA to at least have some traffic in the market. SFO is not a hotbed of AA or DL FF's as it serves as an endpoint for both carriers rather than a connecting Asian Hub or as a means to get to Hawaii.

As far as the contention by some on here regarding O&D, it's a bit irrelevant to an extent of profitability. The fact that SLC's O&D is larger is a joke as there's nothing within hundreds of miles of SLC to compete with. BIG "A"s O&D has been stated year after year as being less than 40% and CLT's has finally inched up to around 30%. As far as other factors, such as completion of the terminal renovations, the 4th parallel runway and the closing of the diagonal RWY 5-23, nothing is going to happen very soon until the new terminal A is completed, B&C extensions completed as well as a new midfield concourse started....at least another 4~5 years or more.

CLTRampRat wrote:

Good morning all,

During a meeting amongst the tenants at CLT recently United said they were taking Concourse A phase III when it opens (around 2022).
Currently United flies to IAD/EWR/DEN/ORD/IAH on mostly E175s and CRJ-700s. They run roughly 5 mainline flights a day to EWR/ORD/DEN. From what I've seen on the ramp they typically RON 9 aircraft; 5 on gates and 4 on hardstands. Phase III is slated to have between 12 and 16 gates so the gate space is needed for the evening terminators/morning originators.

It's no secret they are the airline without a southeast hub, and while 16 gates hardly cuts it as a focus city, I do have to wonder that should this pan out if they won't start running north-south connections through here with high gate utilization.

A quick Concourse A recap:
-Phase I opened over the summer and currently houses WN/F9/B6/UA/AC/Contour
-Delta is taking Phase II that is scheduled to be open by the end of next year.
-Once Delta takes Phase II AA is taking over the old concourse A so concourse D can be strictly international flights.
-And now United has stated their intent on taking Phase III.

Thoughts?

IF. Again, IF there is a hint of truth in this. Kirby would know better than anyone else at UA if there was opportunity there...and what AA would do to them Kirby OWES Parker (behind the scenes stuff) He wouldn't go there. PLUS DL would go nuts