TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:32 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If UA wants a hub in the southeast then they will have to build facilities regardless of where they go. I think taking on AA at CLT would be a major undertaking and not worth the effort. CHS is experiencing rapid growth but it is prone to some nasty weather during hurricane season. MEM has the facilities but a lack of local traffic. I think the only real option is BNA. They would have to contend with Southwest though. And UA certainly couldn't use any 50 seat regional jets or they will be in trouble very quickly. It would take a lot commitment but I think they could pull it off.


This is literally the same thing I have always thought, lol.


Is there room for expansion at BNA? I think if they could build a 30-40 gate complex at BNA then they could have a rolling hub to maximize utilization.
 
Fargo
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:39 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If UA wants a hub in the southeast then they will have to build facilities regardless of where they go. I think taking on AA at CLT would be a major undertaking and not worth the effort. CHS is experiencing rapid growth but it is prone to some nasty weather during hurricane season. MEM has the facilities but a lack of local traffic. I think the only real option is BNA. They would have to contend with Southwest though. And UA certainly couldn't use any 50 seat regional jets or they will be in trouble very quickly. It would take a lot commitment but I think they could pull it off.


This is literally the same thing I have always thought, lol.


Is there room for expansion at BNA? I think if they could build a 30-40 gate complex at BNA then they could have a rolling hub to maximize utilization.


A. There isn't any room at BNA for a 30-40 gate complex, they could only expand either A or B (but not both) and both would net you maybe 15-20 gates max.

B. WN is too big now for UA to make a serious push and BNA isn't big enough of a market for both a UA hub and a large WN focus city
 
alasizon
Posts: 1530
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:40 am

RyanCLT wrote:
First major thing I see wrong with that is there is no E Concourse and with all the money the Airport/AA is putting into E Con currently between renovations and expanding the concourse I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon


The midfield satellite is supposed to replace E. Now as far as when CLT intends to arrive at this point, I have no idea.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
Fargo
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:41 am

UA isn't going to hub or put a focus city in CLT, end of story. Unlike DL in Texas, there are simply no viable options for them to fill their SE gap
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:51 am

Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

This is literally the same thing I have always thought, lol.


Is there room for expansion at BNA? I think if they could build a 30-40 gate complex at BNA then they could have a rolling hub to maximize utilization.


A. There isn't any room at BNA for a 30-40 gate complex, they could only expand either A or B (but not both) and both would net you maybe 15-20 gates max.

B. WN is too big now for UA to make a serious push and BNA isn't big enough of a market for both a UA hub and a large WN focus city


Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.
 
Fargo
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Is there room for expansion at BNA? I think if they could build a 30-40 gate complex at BNA then they could have a rolling hub to maximize utilization.


A. There isn't any room at BNA for a 30-40 gate complex, they could only expand either A or B (but not both) and both would net you maybe 15-20 gates max.

B. WN is too big now for UA to make a serious push and BNA isn't big enough of a market for both a UA hub and a large WN focus city


Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:05 am

WPvsMW wrote:
Fervent agreement on "IAD remains an important international gateway". My point is that UA's 56 years of trying to grow IAD as a domestic hub have been unsuccessful despite MWAA's diverting DCA revenue to support IAD, Virginia's state subsidies, adding a Silver line stop, etc. What's different now that would make a 6-bank operation succeed when a 4-bank doesn't? Seems as logical as "we lose money on each unit, but we'll make it up on volume". My premise: UA needs a plan B for the Southeast, IAD isn't it. IAD will always be constrained by the internal network dynamic of EWR/DCA/IAD, and externally by BWI, esp., WN at BWI. IMO, UA's best options are CLT, BNA, or GSO.

So abandon IAD for GSO....sure why not
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:06 am

Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:

A. There isn't any room at BNA for a 30-40 gate complex, they could only expand either A or B (but not both) and both would net you maybe 15-20 gates max.

B. WN is too big now for UA to make a serious push and BNA isn't big enough of a market for both a UA hub and a large WN focus city


Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


I don't see WN as an issue. WN seems to coexist just fine in other cities. DL at ATL, UA both in Houston and Chicago, AA in Chicago and Dallas.

Everyone said that Delta would kill off Alaska within a couple of years in SEA. Well that certainly hasn't happened. Alaska is as strong as ever and the two seem to get along ok.

Wanting to keep UA out of the southeast is nothing more than blind hatred from DL and WN fanboys.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:06 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If UA wants a hub in the southeast then they will have to build facilities regardless of where they go. I think taking on AA at CLT would be a major undertaking and not worth the effort. CHS is experiencing rapid growth but it is prone to some nasty weather during hurricane season. MEM has the facilities but a lack of local traffic. I think the only real option is BNA. They would have to contend with Southwest though. And UA certainly couldn't use any 50 seat regional jets or they will be in trouble very quickly. It would take a lot commitment but I think they could pull it off.


This is literally the same thing I have always thought, lol.


Is there room for expansion at BNA? I think if they could build a 30-40 gate complex at BNA then they could have a rolling hub to maximize utilization.

a rolling hub requires a very large local market to make up for reduced connections that are lost with long connect times at a rolling hub
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:11 am

WPvsMW wrote:
56 years and counting. My point is that UA needs a domestic connex hub serving the SE (IAD isn't it and has never been it) .... or UA never penetrates the SE.

Do you realize that the only thing UA loses by not having a SE hub is traffic within the south? Anything that goes outside the region (ie the majority of the traffic) is covered by IAH, IAD or ORD. How much SE-SE traffic is there that UA is losing?

BTW UA didnt have a hub in IAD 56 years ago, it was around the late 1980s. So it isnt 56 years and counting.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13394
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


I don't see WN as an issue. WN seems to coexist just fine in other cities. DL at ATL, UA both in Houston and Chicago, AA in Chicago and Dallas.

Everyone said that Delta would kill off Alaska within a couple of years in SEA. Well that certainly hasn't happened. Alaska is as strong as ever and the two seem to get along ok.

Wanting to keep UA out of the southeast is nothing more than blind hatred from DL and WN fanboys.


I don’t really care if UA has a hub in the southeast, but BNA - an O&D market of 13 or 14 million with scads of OAL service - isn’t really a sensible place. Why not BHM or MEM?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Fargo
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:00 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


I don't see WN as an issue. WN seems to coexist just fine in other cities. DL at ATL, UA both in Houston and Chicago, AA in Chicago and Dallas.

Everyone said that Delta would kill off Alaska within a couple of years in SEA. Well that certainly hasn't happened. Alaska is as strong as ever and the two seem to get along ok.

Wanting to keep UA out of the southeast is nothing more than blind hatred from DL and WN fanboys.


Big difference. Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston have tons more O&D traffic than Nashville.

Trust me, I agree 100% UA needs a SE hub, and I actually advocated for a UA BNA hub in the past, but I just can't realistically see it now. Other than maybe DL hubbing AUS in the future, I don't think we'll see another US3 hub built again.

And BTW, In regards to SEA, I think there is a very real chance DL buys AS at some point to gain full access to the airport. DL knows they eventually need to get SEA on par with UA in SFO, and the only way to do that is to eliminate AS.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:41 am

Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:

It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


I don't see WN as an issue. WN seems to coexist just fine in other cities. DL at ATL, UA both in Houston and Chicago, AA in Chicago and Dallas.

Everyone said that Delta would kill off Alaska within a couple of years in SEA. Well that certainly hasn't happened. Alaska is as strong as ever and the two seem to get along ok.

Wanting to keep UA out of the southeast is nothing more than blind hatred from DL and WN fanboys.


Big difference. Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, Houston have tons more O&D traffic than Nashville.

Trust me, I agree 100% UA needs a SE hub, and I actually advocated for a UA BNA hub in the past, but I just can't realistically see it now. Other than maybe DL hubbing AUS in the future, I don't think we'll see another US3 hub built again.

And BTW, In regards to SEA, I think there is a very real chance DL buys AS at some point to gain full access to the airport. DL knows they eventually need to get SEA on par with UA in SFO, and the only way to do that is to eliminate AS.


Delta doesn't compete with Alaska on international flights. Delta could start whatever TPAC flights they wanted to from SEA. But SEA will never be SFO. Buying AS would give DL no advantages. The airport has already accommodated Delta with plenty of additional gates so that's not an issue. The joint venture with Korean Air is their solution. Get the DL passengers to ICN and then Korean will take it from there.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1354
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:08 am

Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Fargo wrote:

A. There isn't any room at BNA for a 30-40 gate complex, they could only expand either A or B (but not both) and both would net you maybe 15-20 gates max.

B. WN is too big now for UA to make a serious push and BNA isn't big enough of a market for both a UA hub and a large WN focus city


Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


Alright, so let me start by saying that ANY of AA/DL/UA hubbing at BNA WILL NOT happen. Nor should it, Nashville is not the type of market that will support a legacy hub.

But it actually is possible within the existing airport property to set up a (small) hub either with additions to the existing terminal (coupled with potentially moving some parking and ground utilities) or building a second terminal building.

Google Maps shot:
Image

There is room for a small terminal (though nothing in the way of close in parking with it) in the northwest corner between the two runways. Alternately the Cargo areas could be replaced with a new terminal (that is, I believe, the site of the previous terminal building). Likewise, the ANG base could be replaced with a terminal. Either of those OR a new terminal could also be built to the east of the 3rd parallel runway where there is a lot of mostly vacant land...a good portion of which MNAA already owns or has plans to acquire should a 4th parallel runway ever be needed.

It will not happen and is not needed, but it is doable.

But UA will not be building a hub in the southeast. Not at CLT. Not at BNA. Certainly not at BHM or MEM. They don't have the resources to waste, they're not losing enough potential passenger traffic to make it worth it, and they have good enough coverage for people travelling to or from the area from somewhere else with their existing hubs.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:40 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
56 years and counting. My point is that UA needs a domestic connex hub serving the SE (IAD isn't it and has never been it) .... or UA never penetrates the SE.

Do you realize that the only thing UA loses by not having a SE hub is traffic within the south? Anything that goes outside the region (ie the majority of the traffic) is covered by IAH, IAD or ORD. How much SE-SE traffic is there that UA is losing?

BTW UA didnt have a hub in IAD 56 years ago, it was around the late 1980s. So it isnt 56 years and counting.


I disagree. UA loses more than traffic "within the south". How much of DL' traffic at ATL is "within the south", ditto AA at CLT? A network planner (one of my former jobs) would want that traffic. $$$$$ Now, how about "to and from the South"? An even bigger pie... that UA also loses because only UA captives are going to fly to EWR or IAD from anywhere other than Chicago to go to a destination in the South, be it TX, FL, the Carolinas, or points in between.

I did not state that UA had a hub at IAD 56 years ago... NO ONE had a hub there because JFK and Dwight had just cut the ribbon. Has UA tried to build a hub at IAD... yes, a domestic hub to complement what became UA's premier E. Coast international gateway (just for fun... really, it's EWR). When United Express "replaced" Independence Air (ch.11) at IAD 2006, UA really began efforts to build a domestic hub at IAD, but has to date not overcome the EWR/DCA/IAD dynamics of its own network nor the competition of WN at BWI and of every carrier at DCA. Independence Air was the only domestic competitor UA ever had at IAD.

Since 2006, UA has had no meaningful domestic competition at IAD. Check our the cities served.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washingto ... al_Airport: Airlines and Destinations.
Being completely dominant for domestic connections at IAD... and yet UA struggles... why is that? Are there expansion constraints or not?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:51 am

antoniemey wrote:
Fargo wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Ever hear of something called eminent domain? If UA decides that they really need a hub in the southeast and BNA is their choice then I highly doubt the city of Nashville is going to tell them to F off.


It's not just lack of space, it's the terminal building itself and the fact that it can't be very easily expanded. Other than an expansion of A or B, it is not very expandable. It is surrounded by roads/highways and terminals. You can't just eminent domain it. Rather than pursuing this "BNA Vision" project, BNA would have been better of bulldozing the terminal and replacing it with a more efficient design that could be expanded more easily (e.g. RDU/AUS).

Plus, you already have a large WN focus city that is now pusing 120+ flights, how is UA going to compete with that?


Alright, so let me start by saying that ANY of AA/DL/UA hubbing at BNA WILL NOT happen. Nor should it, Nashville is not the type of market that will support a legacy hub.

But it actually is possible within the existing airport property to set up a (small) hub either with additions to the existing terminal (coupled with potentially moving some parking and ground utilities) or building a second terminal building.

Google Maps shot:
Image

There is room for a small terminal (though nothing in the way of close in parking with it) in the northwest corner between the two runways. Alternately the Cargo areas could be replaced with a new terminal (that is, I believe, the site of the previous terminal building). Likewise, the ANG base could be replaced with a terminal. Either of those OR a new terminal could also be built to the east of the 3rd parallel runway where there is a lot of mostly vacant land...a good portion of which MNAA already owns or has plans to acquire should a 4th parallel runway ever be needed.

It will not happen and is not needed, but it is doable.

But UA will not be building a hub in the southeast. Not at CLT. Not at BNA. Certainly not at BHM or MEM. They don't have the resources to waste, they're not losing enough potential passenger traffic to make it worth it, and they have good enough coverage for people travelling to or from the area from somewhere else with their existing hubs.


Never is a very strong word. People who use it are bound to look foolish at some point. The airline industry changes quite frequently.
 
LH658
Posts: 680
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:35 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:39 am

Without DC as a capital, UA wouldn't really be their, most of their international flights serve for government/corporate contracts. Obviously serves as a relief for EWR, just as PHL serves a relief for AA JFK hub.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:30 am

Traffic to and from the south is captured from existing hubs as I said. And to say UA has had no meaningful competition at IAD misses that DCA kept seeing beyond the perimeter flights added and AA as a stronger competitor to UA than US. Ill try and find out how much infra south traffic is, but I doubt it is very much. I’m sure some website will have that answer.

TYS-ORD-SFO/SEA is no worse than via atl or clt and TYS-IAH-PHX/LAX/SAN is no worse than via atl or clt.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 427
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am

LH658 wrote:
Without DC as a capital, UA wouldn't really be their, most of their international flights serve for government/corporate contracts. Obviously serves as a relief for EWR, just as PHL serves a relief for AA JFK hub.


I think you are confused. A reliever hub is the smaller of two hubs. PHL is much bigger for AA than JFK. They don't even run 100 departures from JFK anymore. What's left of JFK is whatever local traffic they can capture.
 
tbboko802
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 am

[quote="CLTRampRat"]Good morning all,

During a meeting amongst the tenants at CLT recently United said they were taking Concourse A phase III when it opens (around 2022).
Currently United flies to IAD/EWR/DEN/ORD/IAH on mostly E175s and CRJ-700s. They run roughly 5 mainline flights a day to EWR/ORD/DEN.

Actually, Flights from IAH to CLT (and vice versa) are a of mix of 1-2 738s and 1-2 E175s/ day, ORD and EWR are more typically all E175s and E 170s with mainline 1-2x week. DEN runs 2 flights usually of 2 E175s . IAH is the only UA Hub that runs mainline everyday to CLT.
Be Open to Change
 
CLTDAL
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:36 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:10 pm

Like I keep saying- MEM is the BEST place for an airline to setup. Its being completely redone and will be very nice once completed. Im sure operating costs are lower considering its a city thats not doing so well, but on the other hand would be a SOLID competitor to both CLT and ATL. FedEx is there with a huge cargo hub and the city is making a turn around. They have a nice soul music scene, great barbeque, affordable housing not to mention the location on the map. It would allow for multiple easy connections thru out the South and the West.....amongst others. NW and Republic both did fine there. Have UA get into the city and promote it....get involved....make Memphis feel good and welcome to the brand. It would work. Why wouldn't a passenger want to connect thru a brand new airport that is clean and convenient???? I think UA could really make MEM shine.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5214
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:16 pm

[quote="WPvsMW"]

Independence Air was the only domestic competitor UA ever had at IAD.[quote]

Presidential?
New York Air?
Continental?

UA had some other hub competition at IAD, however briefly.
Next up: STL-ATL-NAS-ATL-STL. :cloudnine:
 
Boof02671
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:39 pm

CLTDAL wrote:
Like I keep saying- MEM is the BEST place for an airline to setup. Its being completely redone and will be very nice once completed. Im sure operating costs are lower considering its a city thats not doing so well, but on the other hand would be a SOLID competitor to both CLT and ATL. FedEx is there with a huge cargo hub and the city is making a turn around. They have a nice soul music scene, great barbeque, affordable housing not to mention the location on the map. It would allow for multiple easy connections thru out the South and the West.....amongst others. NW and Republic both did fine there. Have UA get into the city and promote it....get involved....make Memphis feel good and welcome to the brand. It would work. Why wouldn't a passenger want to connect thru a brand new airport that is clean and convenient???? I think UA could really make MEM shine.

MEM is a failed hub. So if DL couldn’t make it work after the NW merger why do you think it would work for UA?

Also where are the planes coming from to start another hub?
 
blockski
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:50 pm

UA’s hub at Dulles is indeed a hub, it’s been a hub for a long time and it’s likely to remain a hub into the future. The only question is how much bigger it could be.

There’s a reason why, despite every opportunity to cut IAD, the hub remains.
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:21 pm

Not sure UA is considering a SE Hub or SE Focus City. Location/economy/population/runways/etc....the only candidates would be: SDF, MEM, BHM, GSO. Of those SDF is the strongest. (UPS Worldport is there for one reason: Location.)
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2254
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:34 pm

Flew WN into CLT yesterday and arrived in the new section of concourse A. It’s a huge improvement! Very open and bright with lots of amenities, including a really cool pet relief area.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
csweet
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:49 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:35 pm

Bluegrass60 wrote:
Not sure UA is considering a SE Hub or SE Focus City. Location/economy/population/runways/etc....the only candidates would be: SDF, MEM, BHM, GSO. Of those SDF is the strongest. (UPS Worldport is there for one reason: Location.)


This thread has gone wild. Do you really think UA would make SDF a Focus City? IAD is a remarkable airport, IMO, and can not be comparable to any SE airport. GSO, BHM, and SDF have roughly 64 gates total. IAD has 123 and counting, I really don't see anything to come for UA in the Southeast.
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:47 pm

CSWEET - I don't think UA is going to create a hub or focus in SE. I am suggesting that SDF would be a solid location if they did. Population, economy etc also make it better than MEM, BHM or GSO. Terminal would need to be expanded...and they can do that at SDF.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:49 pm

Guess you all forgot CO lite tried GSO and failed.

A lot of you are grasping at straws.

UA will not make CLT a hub nor a focus city.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:59 pm

UA must open a SE hub and UA must buy B6. That’s the two themes on this site now.

I recall when this site insisted that AA was going to close CLT as a hub.
 
afcjets
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:25 pm

RDU would be the obvious choice if UA wanted a SE hub outside of IAD.

I actually think a small GSO hub (upto 100 flights or so) could work today if O&D fares were priced below CLT, which in the past has had some of the highest fares in the country. GSO is only 80 miles from CLT and 65 miles from RDU. The catchment area is huge and the population of it has grown tremendously in the past 25 years since CO Lite.
 
codc10
Posts: 2305
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:40 pm

It is pretty clear to me that the plan is for UA to move into the next phase of A upon completion, likely with a similar footprint, with perhaps some additional gates, that will be necessary to support planned growth at IAD, DEN and IAH, along with eventual SFO service. UA also has approximately 150 narrowbody (A319/320/73MAX) aircraft on order over the next few years, and not only will they need places to fly the airplanes, they'll also need places to park them.
 
Bluegrass60
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:01 pm

RDU/GSO are too far East...and would "compete' with IAD. UA would look further west. MEM, BHM, SDF are the only candidates that would make sense. Again...I don't think UA is looking to do anything in the SE
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:23 pm

I don't get this obsession with UA not having a footprint in deep Dixie. What kind of money are they leaving on the table? Stuff like TYS-FLL? RIC to MCO? Markets well covered by DL & AA with lots of ULCC competition.
It would involve allot of capital with questionable results.

What UA lacks in the deep South they make up for in the West. Two geographic and economic crown jewels; DEN is the de facto 'capital' of the intermountain region and SFO is....well...SFO (even with operational issues).
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1218
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:37 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
What UA lacks in the deep South they make up for in the West. Two geographic and economic crown jewels; DEN is the de facto 'capital' of the intermountain region and SFO is....well...SFO (even with operational issues).


If I remember correctly, it's $300 million. That was the amount Smisek associated with losing US as a codeshare partner. (I think that $300 million was just the codeshare revenue.)

While we are counting, there are more people in the South than the West. Someone else can speak to the level of economic activity.
 
TWFlyGuy
Posts: 351
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:53 pm

I'm mostly enjoying this thread because while every city has gotten a 2019 routes thread, CLT has not so at least we're getting some publicity. With that said, I'm not betting on any substantial adds by UA. If they can barely get to mainline to their hubs, why add more? Also, what would they add? They serve some of the top cities by virtue of their hub locations.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2092
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:02 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
I don't get this obsession with UA not having a footprint in deep Dixie. What kind of money are they leaving on the table? Stuff like TYS-FLL? RIC to MCO? Markets well covered by DL & AA with lots of ULCC competition.
It would involve allot of capital with questionable results.

What UA lacks in the deep South they make up for in the West. Two geographic and economic crown jewels; DEN is the de facto 'capital' of the intermountain region and SFO is....well...SFO (even with operational issues).

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
drdisque
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:10 pm

UA just sees an opportunity to avoid spending money on gateless RON spots and make their operation at CLT work better while also gaining the ability to sublease those gates to potential new entrants for minimal additional cost.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:13 pm

CLTDAL wrote:
Like I keep saying- MEM is the BEST place for an airline to setup. Its being completely redone and will be very nice once completed. Im sure operating costs are lower considering its a city thats not doing so well, but on the other hand would be a SOLID competitor to both CLT and ATL. FedEx is there with a huge cargo hub and the city is making a turn around. They have a nice soul music scene, great barbeque, affordable housing not to mention the location on the map. It would allow for multiple easy connections thru out the South and the West.....amongst others. NW and Republic both did fine there. Have UA get into the city and promote it....get involved....make Memphis feel good and welcome to the brand. It would work. Why wouldn't a passenger want to connect thru a brand new airport that is clean and convenient???? I think UA could really make MEM shine.


you can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. In this case MEM is an hour from the IAH hub. It's not going to be attractive to SE-SE traffic any more than IAH is today. Who is going to fly Florida-MEM-Northeast? Or intrasouth via MEM vs CLT or ATL? A new terminal frequently does NOT equal lower costs. As you point out MEM itself isn't doing well. There's not nearly enough O&D traffic. It's up to the locals to make MEM a place to visit, not an airline. Beale St is nice, but it has nothing on 6th St Austin or Music Row in Nashville. The BBQ is great, but MEM currently isn't as safe or tourist friendly as the two other cities I mentioned. There's no business case to hub at MEM right now.
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753/762/763/764/772/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440/700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:49 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:

Independence Air was the only domestic competitor UA ever had at IAD.

Presidential?
New York Air?
Continental?

UA had some other hub competition at IAD, however briefly.


I did say "meaningful competition" in one instance... and omitted it in the other instance. Independence Air was started by Atlantic Coast Airlines specifically to be its independent brand and lasted 17 years at IAD. Independence Air had the right idea, but was a total failure at marketing (while refusing to join GDSs). In the late 80s, Presidential lasted less than 2 years before becoming a feeder for CO, then dissolved 2 years later. I flew their BAe-146 several times in the 80s ... the best regional jet of the era, IMO.

I forget CO's lifespan at IAD, but IAD was a feeder (... maybe briefly a focus city) for CO even after absorbing NYAir, PeopleExpress, and Presidential, and IIRC was some mainline but mostly regionals, e.g., Q200s. CO was interested in growing ... EWR (not IAD), which meant feeding EWR TATL to compete with UA TATL ex-IAD.
https://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-New ... m-U-S-hubs

Some background. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=564321
and a little piece of pessimism from 2016: https://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.co ... ulles-hub/


As for MEM, no argument that Memphis_the_city is a standout, and that MEM works for FX, but MEM is too close to IAH, just as IAD is too close to EWR, for hubbing by UA. ATL is slightly closer to MEM than IAH is to MEM... and MEM didn't work for pm DL.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:16 pm

codc10 wrote:
It is pretty clear to me that the plan is for UA to move into the next phase of A upon completion, likely with a similar footprint, with perhaps some additional gates, that will be necessary to support planned growth at IAD, DEN and IAH, along with eventual SFO service. UA also has approximately 150 narrowbody (A319/320/73MAX) aircraft on order over the next few years, and not only will they need places to fly the airplanes, they'll also need places to park them.

A lot of those planes are for fleet renewal, not growth.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:20 pm

AA and DL have RDU locked up.

Theses places you mention aren’t ready for an airline to just move in tomorrow and make it a hub.

Do you realize the infrastructure, facilities, employees and equipment is needed?
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Follow-up on the MEM:ATL and IAD:EWR analogy. The decision that DL faced with MEM post-merger is the same decision UA faces with IAD post-merger, with two off-setting exceptions, UA's TATL traffic (which MEM didn't have), and DL didn't have a major focus city 25 miles away. It's a tough call for UA... do they double-down or retrench. My premise is that "elsewhere" is a better use of resources. UA should print money with premium heavy TATL and build a SE hub in ....(CLTRampRat knows where ;) ;) ).
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5423
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:37 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
As for MEM, no argument that Memphis_the_city is a standout, and that MEM works for FX, but MEM is too close to IAH, just as IAD is too close to EWR, for hubbing by UA. ATL is slightly closer to MEM than IAH is to MEM... and MEM didn't work for pm DL.


You do realize the distance between CLT-EWR (529 miles) and IAH-MEM (468 miles) is almost the same. So if MEM is too close to IAH, then your odd desire for CLT to be a UA hub would have the same problem. And GSO/RDU would be even closer to EWR.

Bottomline, there really isn't any good option for UA to open a SE hub. Any of the options proposed would lose money hand over fist...far worse than IAD!! IAD can at least rely on international/transcon traffic to keep it afloat.

IAD is far from ideal, but if UA wants to grow connecting flows along the East Coast, it's really the only option...which is exactly why UA has been adding markets like ILM, HHH, CHA, LEX, etc to IAD.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:48 pm

I think CLT is UA's Plan B, ORD redux, with the AA/UA ratio (ultimately) reversed (UA would be miniscule at first). Plan B is implemented if Plan A, double down on IAD, doesn't work.

Anyone in the thread who lives inside the Capitol Beltway or south of I-66 and willingly chooses IAD for a domestic flight, even a transcon flight? A transcon flight other than LAX or SFO?

In contrast, O&D at CLT is growing, largely driven by BoA and WellsFargo and to a lesser degree by the I-85 Sprawl.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5423
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:55 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
I think CLT is UA's Plan B, ORD redux, with the AA/UA ratio (ultimately) reversed (UA would be miniscule at first). Plan B is implemented if Plan A, double down on IAD, doesn't work.


There's simply not enough gates at CLT (now or in the future) for UA to build a hub there. Plus, given the local market size and loyalty, UA would have a hub that relies almost 100% on connections which will never make money! ORD works as a dual-hub because it has a vastly larger O&D pool (domestic and international).

I suspect Plan B is just to keep IAD around its current size if the current growth doesn't work. Long-term, I suspect UA will keep IAD and use it as a capacity valve, when times are good IAD will grow and pick-up more connecting flow, when times are bad, IAD will shrink and the flow will go back to EWR. However, long-term, IAD's O&D must grow some as DCA is now tapped out. IAD has been growing for the past 2 years, while DCA's traffic is flat to slightly negative.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:58 pm

FlyPNS1 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
....UA would be miniscule at first).

.

UA at CLT would necessarily start small.
Stated succinctly, UA has been trying to right-size IAD since 1985, and is still trying to right-size IAD.

Going to DEN or connecting at DEN and live inside the Capitol Beltway or south of I-66? Chances are you're on an F9 nonstep ex-DCA (3x daily. UA has 1 nonstop daily ex-DCA, but 5x daily ex-IAD, 3 of which are the 1600-1900 bank).
 
afcjets
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
AA and DL have RDU locked up.

Theses places you mention aren’t ready for an airline to just move in tomorrow and make it a hub.

Do you realize the infrastructure, facilities, employees and equipment is needed?


No one has RDU locked up and WN flies to more places nonstop from RDU than AA.

BNA, RDU, SJU and I am guessing also SJC did not have the infrastructure, facilities and equipment needed when AA announced hubs in those cities and unless you’re announcing a hub anywhere other than an abandoned hub like PIT or MEM that is always going to be the case. Airline jobs especially at airports are easy to fill.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 959
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 pm

Italianflyer wrote:
I don't get this obsession with UA not having a footprint in deep Dixie. What kind of money are they leaving on the table? Stuff like TYS-FLL? RIC to MCO? Markets well covered by DL & AA with lots of ULCC competition.
It would involve allot of capital with questionable results.

What UA lacks in the deep South they make up for in the West. Two geographic and economic crown jewels; DEN is the de facto 'capital' of the intermountain region and SFO is....well...SFO (even with operational issues).


I’ve made this argument in the past and was run off the thread as some idiot looser. Apparently, unbeknownst to my ignorant and uneducated mind, dollar general and advance auto parts are headquartered somewhere in Alabama, so of course there’s tons of money being thrown around on travel in the SE
 
codc10
Posts: 2305
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Rumor: United adding gates at CLT

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:19 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
It is pretty clear to me that the plan is for UA to move into the next phase of A upon completion, likely with a similar footprint, with perhaps some additional gates, that will be necessary to support planned growth at IAD, DEN and IAH, along with eventual SFO service. UA also has approximately 150 narrowbody (A319/320/73MAX) aircraft on order over the next few years, and not only will they need places to fly the airplanes, they'll also need places to park them.

A lot of those planes are for fleet renewal, not growth.


Theoretically, they can be, but there are no plans to draw down any of the foregoing fleets in 2019. After 2020, it's anyone's guess, but UA invested in the life-extension package for its A319/320 fleet which was supposed to take the current fleet out beyond 2023-25.

I can see some of the early 737-700/800s on the chopping block (1998-1999 builds) as well as the transcon 757 fleet, but nothing substantial.

A lot of these airplanes are for planned growth.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos