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seahawk
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Germania ceases operations

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:46 am

The airline has announced that is has to find options to cover short-term liquidity needs. Flight Ops are not affected.

https://www.flygermania.com/en-de/unter ... em-anlass/
Last edited by atcsundevil on Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
SCQ83
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:58 am

With the German economy now doing worse, I think we will see some consolidation in the leisure holiday market in Germany. If I am not missing anything there are those players:

- Condor
- Germania
- Sundair
- SunExpress Deutschland
- TUI fly Deutschland

And then there are:

- Lufthansa / Eurowings
- Big foreign players like Corendon Airlines
- Low cost carriers like Ryanair/Laudamotion increasingly touching those holiday markets
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:22 am

seahawk wrote:
The airline has announced that is has to find options to cover short-term liquidity needs. Flight Ops are not affected.

https://www.flygermania.com/en-de/unter ... em-anlass/

Wow, knocking on wood they will manage to solve these financial problems. Would be a pitty to loose this traditional operator:


SCQ83 wrote:
With the German economy now doing worse, I think we will see some consolidation in the leisure holiday market in Germany.

I agree with the consilidation part but the German economy is not (yet) doing worse. Many economists foresee the end of the growth period, that's correct.
Last edited by N14AZ on Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Luxair747SP
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:22 am

It’s harder and harder for the smaller traditional charter outlets as the big players, mostly EW, these days took over many routes which AB served for years. And EW can offer the tour operators a lot cheaper bulk fares than e.g. ST.
I remember the days when there was the following line up at SCN on a Saturday morning : Tuifly to PMI, ST to LPA, AB to PMI, XQ to AYT, Sky to AYT just on the charter side. This is all gone now and mostly there is just EW to PMI and many people drive to HHN to fly FR somewhere as many traditional booking agencies just book people on them.
I hope ST survives as they have quite a few niche charters, AIB shuttle to TLS and several automotive charters along with their TLV BEY flights from many smaller airports.
 
Byrdluvs747
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:22 am

An opportunity for IAG?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
ei146
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:31 am

I really hope they can sort out their issues and wish them good luck. Germania with its predecessor Special Air Transport has a history of 40 years. While their core business is the holiday and charter market they also serve some interesting niches. For instance they fly to some smaller airports in Germany like Erfurt, Rostock or Friedrichshafen and they serve places like Kittilä, Pristina, Yerewan, Teheran or Erbil.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:47 am

Luxair747SP wrote:
I remember the days when there was the following line up at SCN on a Saturday morning : Tuifly to PMI, ST to LPA, AB to PMI, XQ to AYT, Sky to AYT just on the charter side. This is all gone now and mostly there is just EW to PMI and many people drive to HHN to fly FR somewhere as many traditional booking agencies just book people on them.


I flew this summer for the 1st time from SCN. SCN-PMI on EW on a late July Saturday morning (hence super peak season) for 29.99 EUR with a few weeks in advance. My flight was not even full. How is that remotely profitable?

The holiday German market is oversaturated. In summer 2018, Ryanair/Laudamotion has been key. You could see 14.99 or 19.99 EUR fares all summer long to places like PMI (specially from Berlin or Cologne/DUS) or other Southern European holiday resorts. Ryanair has basically flooded the market with plenty of new routes or frequencies that nobody had asked for.

If in summer 2019 the economy is doing worse, Germans will take fewer holidays. So some carriers will suffer.
 
a350lover
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:59 am

LAUDA offers pretty much constant all days of the week 1€ promo fares Palma-Berlin. I guess it happens the same to some other destinations.

I wonder if the fleet could all go under Ryanair/LAUDA. Since they have a pretty interesting mix of 737s (-700s though) but also A320/21s.... maybe it's just the easiest solution.
Last edited by a350lover on Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:01 am

I would not write off Germania straight away. Certain disclosures are necessary and I would assume that Germania solves its difficulties.

Otherwise I would agree, that the possible future slowing of the German economy could hardly have had an impact yet. The "bad" news are based on future expectations aka Business Climate Index of the Ifo Institute. That index has been falling.

Growth in Germany has been 2.2 % in 2018 (up from expected 1.5 %) and is now expected to be 1.5 % in 2019 (the best indication there is that taxes have brought in more money than expected in 2018.
That has to be compared to a very slow population growth, that would be negative without immigration. The higher growth rate in the USA has to be seen against a much faster population growth.

We have seen an steady decrease in unemployment and a rise in salaries from 2010. That trend has not turned yet and I would say is the most important aspect in regards to the holiday makers, that is the primary customer group of Germania.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:05 am

Hopefully they will pull through, since the Air Berlin collapse they have been filling the gap of the airline flying from regional airports to the sun and popular holiday destinations. There are some airports where they are the primary airline.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:48 am

Funny how everyone is talking macro economics here. That's got little bearing on Germania. Germania hasn't been able to turn a profit over the large scale expansion of the German economy over the past few years. They are back to the wall, if they can't find an investor they will be toast very shortly. The time were macro economics could have saved them are in the past.
 
leghorn
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:49 am

Germany 2019 is nothing like Ireland 2008. I was in Ireland in 2008 and I'm in Germany in 2019.
budget surplus is huge. balance of trade is hugely positive.
Enough Chicken Little.
The market for cheap trips to Sunny places is being intentionally saturated by certain operators and they are hoping to pick off operators like Germania.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:20 am

aviationaware wrote:
Funny how everyone is talking macro economics here. That's got little bearing on Germania. Germania hasn't been able to turn a profit over the large scale expansion of the German economy over the past few years. They are back to the wall, if they can't find an investor they will be toast very shortly. The time were macro economics could have saved them are in the past.


Macroeconomics are very linked to aviation industry. Anyway I quit about arguing about Germany. It is as useless as talking to people in Spain in 2006 about how ridiculous the situation was there (at that point unemployment was lower in Spain than Germany and Spain was to surpass Germany in GDP per capita) because during economic bubbles most people live in denial. Back in the day, Spain was the European miracle (praised by the WSJ or the FT) and Germany "a mess".

IMO the German bubble will burst sooner than later. Let's wait and see.
 
leghorn
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:38 am

I'm not in denial. If you want to compare somewhere to Ireland in 2008 compare Ireland in 2019 which is one small external financial shockwave away from deja vu, not Germany where the people are as parsimonious as they ever were.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:53 am

Has Germania been in trouble for years with Laudamotion simply the last problem that Germania finds to be too much ? Or was it the case that Germania was doing ok (not well, but good enough to keep everyone happy) and 2018 was a sudden huge change ?
I'm wondering also if a major shareholder in Germania has had a change of mind on Germania and now simply wishes to sell their shares in the company which has triggered all of this...
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:43 pm

I wonder what made them disclose the financial problems, without the need for it ? If some German media outlets will pick it up, it will harm forward bookings and they get even more in trouble.
Germania was until 2005 manged by Mr Bischoff which was also the first director of Hapag Lloyd airline (now TuiFly) in Germany. At the time it was a very well managed business which always knew where deals to be made and core business was the aircraft leasing business.

Somewhat this seem to have changed since, perhaps ambitions were too high to compete with the bigger outlets. I remember being on a Germania flight from Tegel to Faro, it was almost empty in mid summer. All this, because everyone wanted to get something from the Air Berlin remains and jumped into flying the same routes at almost same times. The same btw I experienced also on Laudamotion, Ryanair and Eurowings on the same routes, but perhaps they can compensate it in someway or another.

Sad to see they having troubles, as crews and service were always good.
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Noshow
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:55 pm

I think they switched their traditional owned 737 fleet to cheaper used aircraft and ended up with some painful maintenance hogs, especially one or two A321 from north Africa...
Now they want to move back to new built A320neos that are to be delivered from next year I guess.
 
Birdwatching
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:05 pm

I think it is worth noting that Germania, unlike any other holiday carrier in Germany, will serve you a free hot meal on your flight. I think that is pretty amazing, and certainly does not fit into this day and age. Sadly I'm afraid this won't last for long. Didn't FR say they earn little to nothing on fares and make most of their profit on upsell and ancillary fees? Hard to compete with that when you feed your pax for free.
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Delta777Jet
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Birdwatching wrote:
I think it is worth noting that Germania, unlike any other holiday carrier in Germany, will serve you a free hot meal on your flight. I think that is pretty amazing, and certainly does not fit into this day and age. Sadly I'm afraid this won't last for long. Didn't FR say they earn little to nothing on fares and make most of their profit on upsell and ancillary fees? Hard to compete with that when you feed your pax for free.


I believe there is a certain niche in the holiday flight sector where people like to fly with a service airline. Dont forget, also on Germania you can pay for luggage, pre seat assignment etc. , just they did not use too much force to sell it and yes on board service free of charge.

I would even say they have a better quality image than Ryanair or Eurowings, perhaps more close or similar to Tuifly.
717/722/732/733/735/736/73G/739/739/741/742/743/744/748/74L/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/77L/788/789/781/DC10/L10/L15/M80/M90/320/321/319/AB6/312/313/332/333/342/343/346/359/388/T54/IL18/AT4/AT7/DH1/DH3/DH4/E145/170/1790/Bae146/RJ85/F50/F70/100/CR2/CR7/CR9
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:32 pm

Better than Tuifly. Meals, drinks more package. Germania has the best service of all holiday airlines in Germany. It is more like Condor in the 1990ies.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:37 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
I wonder what made them disclose the financial problems, without the need for it ? If some German media outlets will pick it up, it will harm forward bookings and they get even more in trouble.


If they felt the need to disclose and (assuming management are not stupid) this is presumably a desperate call for cash from companies that they haven't already spoken to.

I imagine that by now they will have already talked to Lufthansa, IAG, AirFrance-KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz and anybody else who will listen but not yet found anybody willing to give them the cash they need - in such a situation management are now issuing what is essentially a public plea for help
 
Blerg
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:43 pm

Germania announced a base in PRN this year, they will mostly fly to German cities and will work with local agencies who sell flights to expats. Seems like safe cash for them. It would be bad news for PRN (and great news for SKP) if they go bust.
 
gerald05
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:30 pm

They also announced flighs to TIA this summer
 
smartplane
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:04 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
I wonder what made them disclose the financial problems, without the need for it ? If some German media outlets will pick it up, it will harm forward bookings and they get even more in trouble.


If they felt the need to disclose and (assuming management are not stupid) this is presumably a desperate call for cash from companies that they haven't already spoken to.

I imagine that by now they will have already talked to Lufthansa, IAG, AirFrance-KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizz and anybody else who will listen but not yet found anybody willing to give them the cash they need - in such a situation management are now issuing what is essentially a public plea for help

Certainly the way to get the message out quickly to potential partners and white knights. Their OEM might assist directly / indirectly. HiFly?

Responsible to disclose, but may pre-empt mandatory disclosure if covenants close to being breached.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:59 pm

Earlier in January, there was plenty of press coverage indicating that Germania had found its financial saviour and all was fine again.
Problem is that the unnamed saviour has apparently missed the agreed deadline for providing the money to keep Germania going again

Anyone know more about this ?
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Germania in trouble

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:38 pm

Consolidation should happen in the German scene no matter what. Sadly for aviation enthusiasts liveries will disappear, but this is how the market and business goes. All the historic charter airlines that were catering for travel agents changed vocation, even those under the financial and management control of TOs, and they are just airlines now selling flight-only fares and have VFR and business customers depending on each destination they serve. Condor is the best example, but the particularity is the focus on secondary longhaul routes. Germania also has some niche, but did it go a little crazy with expansion the past few years?! I don't know..
 
hitower3
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:43 pm

https://www.aero.de/news-30854/Germania-verpasst-Gehaltstermin-im-Januar.html
Latest news: Germania CEO Carsten Balke informed his employees that the salary payments for January will be delayed. Payment was due today. Also, there are reports of employees calling in sick.
The background is that the promised cash injection of 15+ MM€ has not been fully paid out.

IMHO, this does not look good at all, since the salary payments receive priority over any other creditors. Germania is definitely in deep trouble.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:14 pm

hitower3 wrote:
https://www.aero.de/news-30854/Germania-verpasst-Gehaltstermin-im-Januar.html
Latest news: Germania CEO Carsten Balke informed his employees that the salary payments for January will be delayed. Payment was due today. Also, there are reports of employees calling in sick.
The background is that the promised cash injection of 15+ MM€ has not been fully paid out.

IMHO, this does not look good at all, since the salary payments receive priority over any other creditors. Germania is definitely in deep trouble.

Wow.. delayed pay is HUGE I understand employees getting a blue flu.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Noshow
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:26 pm

All the best. I hope they survive. It's a nice small airline with some competent people. It would deserve to stay.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:34 pm

January/February is always a peak season for bankruptcies.

With the German economy going downhill, there will be a major impact in those leisure carriers.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:05 pm

Know people who have worked for Germania . App very badly run airline and they were glad to get out . I think as economic conditions worsen smaller airlines and those in tight financials may disappear or be bought
 
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dangerhere
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:22 pm

leghorn wrote:
Germany 2019 is nothing like Ireland 2008. I was in Ireland in 2008 and I'm in Germany in 2019.
budget surplus is huge. balance of trade is hugely positive.
Enough Chicken Little.
The market for cheap trips to Sunny places is being intentionally saturated by certain operators and they are hoping to pick off operators like Germania.


I'm in the same boat. I can certainly say that here in Berlin, the property bubble / crazy speculation going on the last few years is going to end exactly the same way as it did in Dublin. At least Dublin / Ireland for all it's faults has an proper economy so to say, whereas the Berlin 'economy' is largely made up of spätkaufs and easyjet tourists.
 
C010T3
Posts: 1956
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:33 pm

The issei with Germania does not have anything with the economy slowing down.

It has everything to do with the fact that they tried spread their wings further after the bankruptcy of Air Berlin.

The issue is that they don’t have deep pockets and every other airline also tried spreading their wings. Something is gotta give.

Everyone in this site was in agreements that the market was flooded which was the reason Air Berlin was forced to its knees. If anyone takes a look at the numbers now, they are equivalent or exceed the Air Berlin days.
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:40 pm

C010T3 wrote:
The issei with Germania does not have anything with the economy slowing down.

It has everything to do with the fact that they tried spread their wings further after the bankruptcy of Air Berlin.

The issue is that they don’t have deep pockets and every other airline also tried spreading their wings. Something is gotta give.

Everyone in this site was in agreements that the market was flooded which was the reason Air Berlin was forced to its knees. If anyone takes a look at the numbers now, they are equivalent or exceed the Air Berlin days.
Totally agree. Germania had better stay in its size for a while. It was in a winning game picking up here and there prudently.
 
THY748i
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:33 pm

A shame to see them go, hope they make it. Apart from resorty/beachy destinations they‘ve been operating some interesting routes out of ZRH like ZRH-BEY and ZRH-ESB.
It‘s also worh noting that they‘ve been doing some aggressive marketing lately in Switzerland. I‘ve seen quite a few billboards by them lately (as opposed to 0 ever before).
 
SCQ83
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Re: Germania in trouble

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:49 pm

TS-IOR wrote:
C010T3 wrote:
The issei with Germania does not have anything with the economy slowing down.

It has everything to do with the fact that they tried spread their wings further after the bankruptcy of Air Berlin.

The issue is that they don’t have deep pockets and every other airline also tried spreading their wings. Something is gotta give.

Everyone in this site was in agreements that the market was flooded which was the reason Air Berlin was forced to its knees. If anyone takes a look at the numbers now, they are equivalent or exceed the Air Berlin days.
Totally agree. Germania had better stay in its size for a while. It was in a winning game picking up here and there prudently.


Of course it has to do with.

First, the supposedly investor has evaporated or "has not been fully paid out" which might mean 2nd thoughts because of bleak prospects.

Secondly, this part of the year is quite common for carriers to go burst since it is one of the slowest (aka less cash flowing in). With less confidence in the economy, Germans might be buying less tickets for the coming spring/summer season.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/31/reuters ... years.html

German retail sales slump at fastest rate in 11 years

German retail sales plummeted by 4.3 percent on the month in December, the fastest rate in 11 years, data released by the state statistics office on Thursday showed, sending a worrying signal about household spending in Europe's biggest economy. The fall in real terms was far weaker than a Reuters consensus forecast for a 0.6 percent drop.


It has a lot to do with Eurowings/Ryanair, and the economy is just the cherry on the cake.
 
C010T3
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:18 am

The slowdown hasn’t had an effect in the employment numbers, therefore the holy vacation are guaranteed. Trust me, Germans will not forego their vacation travel.
 
Blerg
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:52 am

They are supposed to open a PRN base in a few months, let's see if that ever happens. I think they are desperate for cash and I think the airport gave them some subventions.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:33 am

The economic downturn in Germany will kill them.
 
FatCat
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:47 am

SCQ83 wrote:
With the German economy now doing worse

It's the only economy that goes well in Europe...
Germania can be bought from TUI I think. Slots, planes and crews are way too interesting to let someone else buy them
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:51 pm

Can we stick to the original topic and discuss Germania please ?
GDP growth rates of different countries are probably best discussed on another thread
 
Blerg
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:21 pm

Anyone know what measures they've taken in order to stay operational?
 
devron
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Re: Germania in trouble

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:55 pm

I think this weekend Eurowings, Condor, lufthansa, and maybe Ryanair will get some applications. Not paying employees in a country with 1.2 mil open positions is the start of the end.

What is going wrong after air berlin prices increased but now they have come down a bit what is the cause and I do not believe what is said by managment dollar / euro ratio and fuel prices there most be more?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Germania in trouble

Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:42 pm

Reports on PPRuNe of problems at Germania coming to a head. No idea if it is true or not
 
dcajet
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Re: Germania in trouble

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:13 pm

According to some sources at PPRuNE, Germania has been de-listed from the Amadeus GDS,
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
a350lover
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Re: Germania in trouble

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:49 pm

ST4914 has been canceled tonight in Tegel before leaving to Tel Aviv. Apparently passengers let about this right at the airport. A bit of confusion on whether this is the beginning of the end. Flightradar doesn't show any flight in the air at the moment.

The website flygermania.com doesn't work/retrieve any content. This is definitely NOT LOOKING GOOD.
Last edited by a350lover on Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SNN99
Posts: 24
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Re: Germania in trouble

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:51 pm

Website has been taken down
 
dcajet
Posts: 4237
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Re: Germania in trouble

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:01 am

SNN99 wrote:
Website has been taken down


Just checked from here (SF, CA) and it seems to be working fine.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 405
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Germania in trouble

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:01 am

Website still responds to me. Admittedly slow, but given a bit of time the home page does still work - without any message about closure
 
B747forever
Posts: 13798
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Re: Germania in trouble

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:11 am

While the website still loads, it is impossible to book any tickets.
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