garf25
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Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:45 pm

What do the crew do on these sectors? Are they single sector days and hotel?
It would seem that some of these flights could be completed on 2 sector days given the flight times/durations. Similar to TUI UK to Egypt and return.

Interested.......
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Jeez. I would not want to work for you (nor TUI for that matter).
 
a340crew
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:01 pm

For Norwegian at least (I am sure AC is similar) the 737max is treated similar to Norwegian Long Haul. For both the pilots and cabin crew it’s typically 3 day trips, working one leg each way and laying over on the middle day. Since the max flying is all 2 pilot crews it will never be possible to work a turn from a duty time perspective.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:48 pm

I don't think any airline in Europe rosters 2 sector days in any transatlantic trip. Not even Icelandair despite having maybe the shortest TATL trips to Halifax? Neither any airline from America I believe.
 
Cavalier44
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:03 pm

As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:14 pm

Looking at the schedule of the FI Keflavik-Halifax route... the whole turnaround is around 12 hours, which tends to be the maximum one same crew can fly.

Leaves 6:05pm, arrives in Halifax at 7:40pm. Departs back to Iceland 9:30pm and lands in Keflavik at 4:45pm. Turnaround in YHZ is nearly 2 hours, assuming the crew checks-in one hour before departure (it could easily be more), and counts with 30mins after landing to check-out (could be less/maybe more) their duty would be:

Check in: 5:05pm
Departure from KEF: 6:05pm
Arrival at KEF: 04:45am
Check out: 05:15am
Flight time: 8:50min
Total duty: 12 hours and 10mins.

I'd say this crew does not fly the two sectors.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:29 pm

garf25 wrote:
What do the crew do on these sectors? Are they single sector days and hotel?
It would seem that some of these flights could be completed on 2 sector days given the flight times/durations. Similar to TUI UK to Egypt and return.

Interested.......


That would leave the crew if possible, and I’m skeptical rostered pretty much to max duty hours, only a slight delay and the crew would need to extend. Forgetting any diversion would potentially cause crew to run out of hours mid duty. M Depending on their contract may or may not be possible— very high risk approach.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:30 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.


What an inefficient trip that is! All trip rig, five days to log a whole 13 hours. Most US contracts that’d be a four on, three off month., paying about 25 hours, 13 flying and 12 hours of credit.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
bx737
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:31 pm

I have heard rumours WestJet crew did YYT-DUB-YYT without staying in DUB, it is about four hours each way, which pushes crew to near their maximum legal hours
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:09 pm

Crews can actually fly extended hours, and that’s described within the FTL rules. VY crews used to fly BCN-ACC without staying there, and that was around 5 hours each sector. They still do the same to Banjul.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cavalier44 wrote:
As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.


What an inefficient trip that is! All trip rig, five days to log a whole 13 hours. Most US contracts that’d be a four on, three off month., paying about 25 hours, 13 flying and 12 hours of credit.

It is normally a 3 day or 4 day pairing depending on the day of the week. DHYUL-YYT fly YYT-LHR layover then fly LHR-YYT then DH YYT-YUL. The layover is either 24 (ish) or 48 (ish) hours depending on the day of the week, as it is not a daily flight. The 5 day pairing (there is only one) is for the YHZ-LHR flights due to the longer legs.

It is in Air Canada's contract that after any eastbound Trans-Atlantic flight, a layover must follow. So even though YYT-LHT-YYT would technically be within Canadian Air Regs, for fatigue issues it is not done. If an enroute diversion is made, it is up to the crew to assess their condition whether to continue. It would be allowed for them not to continue per the contract, but per CARs, they could continue.

Regardless, there are Total Hour Guarantees in the contract, so even the credit for the 5 day pairing is quite lucrative and normally only three would be required in a month.
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sixtyseven
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:16 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cavalier44 wrote:
As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.


What an inefficient trip that is! All trip rig, five days to log a whole 13 hours. Most US contracts that’d be a four on, three off month., paying about 25 hours, 13 flying and 12 hours of credit.

GF


They get 4:25 per day or the trip credit total whichever is higher.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:22 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Cavalier44 wrote:
As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.


What an inefficient trip that is! All trip rig, five days to log a whole 13 hours. Most US contracts that’d be a four on, three off month., paying about 25 hours, 13 flying and 12 hours of credit.

GF


They get 4:25 per day or the trip credit total whichever is higher.

Or 6:00 per 24 hours away from base, whichever is higher ... in this case that would kick in. (That is the THG credit on the pairing).
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:28 pm

Gotcha. I was thinking YUL-YYT-LHR could and I understand is operated in one duty period and is on the return. That makes sense.

GF
 
caaardiff
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:29 pm

One of TUIs longest routes is cape verde. The majority of these flights the crew do operate one way and night stop. But in recent years BRS-SAL was operated there and back by the same crew. It's about a 5 - 5 1/2 hour flight each way so roughly 14-15 hour day. Was certainly very close to limits! Not sure if they do now night stop on the BRS flights.
 
APYu
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:46 pm

Astraeus cabin crew in th U.K. Used to do gatwick to Deer Lake (Canada) charters as there and backs.
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DDR
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:48 pm

Didn't jetBlue do some testing awhile back that had crews fly JFK-LAX-JFK without a layover. Does anyone know how that went? I would think in the winter time they would be pushing duty limits.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:08 am

Small Planet used to do MAN-SID (Sal) and LGW-BJL) as a turnaround with 1 extra captain, 1 SCCM and 1 CCM taking it on turn having rest during the flight
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Gotcha. I was thinking YUL-YYT-LHR could and I understand is operated in one duty period and is on the return. That makes sense.

Like most airlines, after pairings are built, risk assessments are made. I notice that on some days, the DH YUL-YYT is done the day before the YYT-LHR.

I would imagine it is a balance, in that you want enough time between flights but not too much as to make the day onerous. Also, in this case, the DH YUL-YYT is not on Air Canada, but Air Canada Express. That means Air Canada's Systems Operations Control has no control over the flight. If they deemed that too risky, or if in winter it were delay prone ... they may make the decision to send them a day early and build the pairing so.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:10 am

bx737 wrote:
I have heard rumours WestJet crew did YYT-DUB-YYT without staying in DUB, it is about four hours each way, which pushes crew to near their maximum legal hours

Nope. Unless it was a one off IIROP that is not how the crew is scheduled.
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matt
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:11 am

That makes sense. Rather than deadhead the first sector, would it also be possible for the crew to operate YYZ-YHZ-LHR on the same day, then layover, and then on day 3 operate LHR-YHZ-YYZ?
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:59 am

matt wrote:
That makes sense. Rather than deadhead the first sector, would it also be possible for the crew to operate YYZ-YHZ-LHR on the same day, then layover, and then on day 3 operate LHR-YHZ-YYZ?

YHZ-LHR-YHZ is operated by a YUL crew, so you get into the same issues, as YUL-YHZ-YUL is flown by Air Canada Express. But, you also have the added issue of the longer leg across the Atlantic vs from YYT. When YHZ-LHR was flown by a (YYZ) 767 crew, that is how they were routed. YYZ-YHZ-LHR with the sane return after the layover.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am

And I didn’t know it AC Express, not mainline, that flew YUL-YYT. Explains a lot.

GF
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:31 am

longhauler wrote:
matt wrote:
That makes sense. Rather than deadhead the first sector, would it also be possible for the crew to operate YYZ-YHZ-LHR on the same day, then layover, and then on day 3 operate LHR-YHZ-YYZ?

YHZ-LHR-YHZ is operated by a YUL crew, so you get into the same issues, as YUL-YHZ-YUL is flown by Air Canada Express. But, you also have the added issue of the longer leg across the Atlantic vs from YYT. When YHZ-LHR was flown by a (YYZ) 767 crew, that is how they were routed. YYZ-YHZ-LHR with the sane return after the layover.


Oh I see. Interesting. I know there are probably valid reasons YUL-based crews operate the YHZ-LHR flight, but it seems it would be more efficient if it were YYZ-based crews as the plane comes in from Toronto into Halifax just before flying to London... I would avoid the deadhead issue. But like I said, I'm sure there are valid reasons for that.

Off topic a little bit... Speaking of deadheads, does AC see a need to deadhead crews within Europe? I doubt, as most flights are daily and thus do not require deadheads for efficiency. I wonder if AC rouge sees a need for it. When used to work as cabin crew for NX and then TS, we would deadhead all the time instead of staying in a city for 3 or 4 nights. Made sense.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:00 am

Hang on a mo, the Air Canada B737 LHR services start at YYZ not YUL surely. I have been tracking the AC860 and AC822 and the operating 73M lands from YYZ, certainly from Oct. Is that not current?
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:15 am

skipness1E wrote:
Hang on a mo, the Air Canada B737 LHR services start at YYZ not YUL surely. I have been tracking the AC860 and AC822 and the operating 73M lands from YYZ, certainly from Oct. Is that not current?

The airplane may well originate in YYZ , but only YUL crews are presently flying the Atlantic with it.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:30 am

matt wrote:
longhauler wrote:
matt wrote:
That makes sense. Rather than deadhead the first sector, would it also be possible for the crew to operate YYZ-YHZ-LHR on the same day, then layover, and then on day 3 operate LHR-YHZ-YYZ?

YHZ-LHR-YHZ is operated by a YUL crew, so you get into the same issues, as YUL-YHZ-YUL is flown by Air Canada Express. But, you also have the added issue of the longer leg across the Atlantic vs from YYT. When YHZ-LHR was flown by a (YYZ) 767 crew, that is how they were routed. YYZ-YHZ-LHR with the sane return after the layover.


Oh I see. Interesting. I know there are probably valid reasons YUL-based crews operate the YHZ-LHR flight, but it seems it would be more efficient if it were YYZ-based crews as the plane comes in from Toronto into Halifax just before flying to London... I would avoid the deadhead issue. But like I said, I'm sure there are valid reasons for that.

Off topic a little bit... Speaking of deadheads, does AC see a need to deadhead crews within Europe? I doubt, as most flights are daily and thus do not require deadheads for efficiency. I wonder if AC rouge sees a need for it. When used to work as cabin crew for NX and then TS, we would deadhead all the time instead of staying in a city for 3 or 4 nights. Made sense.


AC Rouge crews usually only deadhead for the first/last flight at each station for the season. Occasionally layovers will be as long as 96 hours, that’s just the nature of the flying Rouge does.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:46 am

DDR wrote:
Didn't jetBlue do some testing awhile back that had crews fly JFK-LAX-JFK without a layover. Does anyone know how that went? I would think in the winter time they would be pushing duty limits.


I can’t answer your question. In regards to what you said.... Not only would the winter time pose any problems but considering how delayed prone JFK can be. Couldn’t see how that would work myself.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:22 am

JetBlueCLT wrote:
DDR wrote:
Didn't jetBlue do some testing awhile back that had crews fly JFK-LAX-JFK without a layover. Does anyone know how that went? I would think in the winter time they would be pushing duty limits.


I can’t answer your question. In regards to what you said.... Not only would the winter time pose any problems but considering how delayed prone JFK can be. Couldn’t see how that would work myself.


We still have them at Jetblue. The transcon turns. We have a maximum scheduled duty day of 14hrs so they’re doable. However, since we launched MINT non of the MINT crews turn because of the longer ground time required by the A321. That did piss off a lot of senior FA’s because they absoultey love the red eye turns and day turns, but those are scarce now. We do have a pairing where you report at 1700 and do MCO-LAX 45min ground time and then do LAX-BUF on a red eye...12hr day sleep and then do the opposite in reverse where you go BUF-LAX and then on back to MCO on the red eye.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:29 am

DDR wrote:
Didn't jetBlue do some testing awhile back that had crews fly JFK-LAX-JFK without a layover. Does anyone know how that went? I would think in the winter time they would be pushing duty limits.

BOS-PDX-BOS when we have it is a red eye turn. A of FA’s are still pissed we don’t really have anymore transcon day turns or red eye turns. I think SLC is the longest red eye turn out of BOS now. They’re very popular with the FA’s. But now with MINT no more turns. It’s even more interesting because only JFK and BOS based FA’s can work MINT flights, no other base unless there is an IROP. So that’s taken flying out all the other 3 crew bases. The reason being only JFK/BOS are MINT bases, and the crew stays together for the entire pairing. So they deadhead us to other bases and we operate their transcons...it’s a touchy subject to say the least and the FA’s that aren’t based in JFK/BOS, are not happy about it.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am

This is a good thread. Informative, not repetitive like so many others lately.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:58 am

bx737 wrote:
I have heard rumours WestJet crew did YYT-DUB-YYT without staying in DUB, it is about four hours each way, which pushes crew to near their maximum legal hours


Good rumor but no. Scheduled as a 24 hr layover in DUB, restrictions on operating after a redeye flight as well.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:06 am

IIRC, on my HA flight from LAX-OGG 2 years ago, one of the FAs said the LAX based crews often do same day turns to the islands, so LAX-HNL/OGG/KOA-LAX, which is a pretty long day I think.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:11 am

bd777 wrote:
IIRC, on my HA flight from LAX-OGG 2 years ago, one of the FAs said the LAX based crews often do same day turns to the islands, so LAX-HNL/OGG/KOA-LAX, which is a pretty long day I think.


I had a LAA flight attendant friend that was based in LAX and he often did a turn on the 757 LAX-Hawaii-LAX but that was about 12 years ago so not sure if they still do that or not.. that’s a long day for sure!
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:21 am

SoCalFlyer wrote:
BOS-PDX-BOS when we have it is a red eye turn.


Does the flight deck do that as a turn too?

I know years ago when they flew JFK-TUS, the flight crew did it as a turn. It sounded miserable when they mentioned it to me. I'd be sucking on the oxygen mask the whole leg east.
 
garf25
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:02 am

Thanks for such good replies on this question.

You can see my point on this, take out the word 'transatlantic', and I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done. It's more a case of contracts/working arrangements, and even culture that means crew nightstop.
If UK airlines (and have done for years) undertake UK to Egypt returns (East/West), the only difference really with the shortest of the transatlantic hops is the water beneath. BRS SAL was mentioned, but one could argue that fatigue levels could differ due to the flight being North South and being less affected by sunrise/sunset.

Great discussion.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:44 am

Yes for example the NCL-HRG (Newcastle, UK - Hurghada, Egypt) flights are 2 sector days. That’s 13 hours from takeoff to landing back at Newcastle plus commute to airport and prep before. A long day.
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:09 am

It’s interesting reading crew duty time and cultural norms. In medicine 12 hours would be considered a pretty standard shift for most grades, but a sizeable majority do work a 24 hour day. We don’t have enforced break/rest periods. Legally and contractually “natural rest” is considered sufficient. 4 x 12.5 hour nigh shifts are normal working pattern, repeated 4-8 weekly.

The evolution of work practices is interesting, in two “safety critical” environments.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:24 am

SoCalFlyer wrote:
only JFK and BOS based FA’s can work MINT flights, no other base unless there is an IROP.


I guess the reason why only BOS and JFK are the ones who are rostered with MINT flights is that only routes to those bases can support the demand needed to break even with the MINT cabin?
Last edited by a350lover on Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:30 am

BrianDromey wrote:
It’s interesting reading crew duty time and cultural norms. In medicine 12 hours would be considered a pretty standard shift for most grades, but a sizeable majority do work a 24 hour day. We don’t have enforced break/rest periods. Legally and contractually “natural rest” is considered sufficient. 4 x 12.5 hour nigh shifts are normal working pattern, repeated 4-8 weekly.

The evolution of work practices is interesting, in two “safety critical” environments.


Very interesting comparison. I guess physicians do not work crossing time zones, which is the main particularity behind the air crew's profession. The feeling of 12 hours in the ground is not exactly the same flight crews experience at 36.000ft. Said that, the level of concentration, situational awareness and rest required to work as a doctor/nurse/etc. makes me think it'd be absolutely reasonable for medicine professionals to have some shift controls and limits.
 
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:37 pm

Cavalier44 wrote:
As I understand it, Air Canada’s YYT-LHR trip on the 737 MAX is accomplished over five days during the summer months. The crew begins the pairing in YUL, does one flight to YYT on the first day and then has a layover there. The second day, they operate a single flight to LHR followed by a 30-hour layover there, taking care of the third day. On the fourth day, one leg back to YYT for another layover, and finally back to YUL on the fifth day.


The ME3 have just 24 hours in JFK on their flights to the US and they are literally back in 3 days. The same applies for most of their destinations, maybe more than 24 hours for the longer West Coast. I was shocked when I flew on EK's A345 in 2009 to JFK and the FAs told me it was only a 24 hour rest. Ten years later it still applies. Those FAs don't have it easy!

Seems a bit excessive for the AC flights above to take 5 days.
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longhauler
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Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:59 pm

Flightsimboy wrote:
The ME3 have just 24 hours in JFK on their flights to the US and they are literally back in 3 days. The same applies for most of their destinations, maybe more than 24 hours for the longer West Coast. I was shocked when I flew on EK's A345 in 2009 to JFK and the FAs told me it was only a 24 hour rest. Ten years later it still applies. Those FAs don't have it easy!

Seems a bit excessive for the AC flights above to take 5 days.

YYZ-HKG/PVG/PEK/HND-YYZ, YVR-MEL/SYD/BNE-YVR, YYZ-DEL/BOM-YYZ, YYZ-DXB-YYZ are all three day pairings when daily . ULH is a breeze for planning, especially when it is a daily flight.

With all of the factors noted above, if you think you can build a more efficient pairing to fly YYT-LHR-YYT or YHZ-LHR-YHZ, then I am sure Air Canada would love to hear from you.

ALL factors are taken into account, then pilot pairings are built to minimum cost. After pairing construction, the proposal is sent to various union committees to look for "problems" and adjustments are made.

So ... I am listening. Take into account ... only YUL crews fly the Atlantic on the Max, only Air Canada Express flies YUL to either YYT or YHZ, after the YYT/YHZ-LHR leg a layover must follow and the flights are not daily. How would you do it? Look mostly at covering the YHZ-LHR-YHZ flying, as I noted above the YYT-LHR is coverd on 3 or 4 day pairings depending on the day of the week.

(This is not said accusingly nor condescendingly. It is an interesting problem and "pairing generation" is a challenge. But, sometimes, some people see an answer where others dont!)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:08 pm

longhauler wrote:
Flightsimboy wrote:
The ME3 have just 24 hours in JFK on their flights to the US and they are literally back in 3 days. The same applies for most of their destinations, maybe more than 24 hours for the longer West Coast. I was shocked when I flew on EK's A345 in 2009 to JFK and the FAs told me it was only a 24 hour rest. Ten years later it still applies. Those FAs don't have it easy!

Seems a bit excessive for the AC flights above to take 5 days.

YYZ-HKG/PVG/PEK/HND-YYZ, YVR-MEL/SYD/BNE-YVR, YYZ-DEL/BOM-YYZ, YYZ-DXB-YYZ are all three day pairings when daily . ULH is a breeze for planning, especially when it is a daily flight.

With all of the factors noted above, if you think you can build a more efficient pairing to fly YYT-LHR-YYT or YHZ-LHR-YHZ, then I am sure Air Canada would love to hear from you.

ALL factors are taken into account, then pilot pairings are built to minimum cost. After pairing construction, the proposal is sent to various union committees to look for "problems" and adjustments are made.

So ... I am listening. Take into account ... only YUL crews fly the Atlantic on the Max, only Air Canada Express flies YUL to either YYT or YHZ, after the YYT/YHZ-LHR leg a layover must follow and the flights are not daily. How would you do it? Look mostly at covering the YHZ-LHR-YHZ flying, as I noted above the YYT-LHR is coverd on 3 or 4 day pairings depending on the day of the week.

(This is not said accusingly nor condescendingly. It is an interesting problem and "pairing generation" is a challenge. But, sometimes, some people see an answer where others dont!)


It''s not daily. There we go. Thanks longhauler. Btw I do like reading your posts and of course your profile pic rocks (wink)
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
AA94
Posts: 722
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:31 pm

chrisair wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
BOS-PDX-BOS when we have it is a red eye turn.


Does the flight deck do that as a turn too?

I know years ago when they flew JFK-TUS, the flight crew did it as a turn. It sounded miserable when they mentioned it to me. I'd be sucking on the oxygen mask the whole leg east.


Negative. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any flight crew pairings built as transcon turns. For inflight, JFK-ABQ; JFK-DEN; JFK-RNO; JFK-SLC; BOS-DEN; BOS-SLC; MCO-LAX are ones that come to mind as transcon turns.
 
SoCalFlyer
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:16 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:25 pm

AA94 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
BOS-PDX-BOS when we have it is a red eye turn.


Does the flight deck do that as a turn too?

I know years ago when they flew JFK-TUS, the flight crew did it as a turn. It sounded miserable when they mentioned it to me. I'd be sucking on the oxygen mask the whole leg east.


Negative. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any flight crew pairings built as transcon turns. For inflight, JFK-ABQ; JFK-DEN; JFK-RNO; JFK-SLC; BOS-DEN; BOS-SLC; MCO-LAX are ones that come to mind as transcon turns.


No the pilots don’t turn they layover. They only turn(or used to) was one of the British West Indies flights. It’s only 3x weekly. So a 2 pilots work down, 2 DH in the back, and they swap out on the flight back. The 2 DH pilots now work and the other 2 DH back to JFK. I can’t recall which blue city it is.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 1903
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:50 pm

a350lover wrote:
I don't think any airline in Europe rosters 2 sector days in any transatlantic trip. Not even Icelandair despite having maybe the shortest TATL trips to Halifax? Neither any airline from America I believe.


Off topic, I know, but I do remember flying with some first officers who flew C-5s in the U.S. Air Force; they had flown C-5s from Dover, Delaware to Ramstein and back in a single day during the Gulf War. And yes, they said it was very hard on their bodies.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
smallmj
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:39 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:02 pm

At the risk of going off topic, I thought the YUL-YHZ flights were a mix of AC Express and mainline. Yesterday and today they were AC 7556, 7558, 672, 668, and 7566 with the 7000 series operated by express and the 600 series operated by mainline on A320 aircraft. It doesn't affect your point though since no 737 Max aircraft currently operate the route, so the YUL pilots would have to meet their aircraft in YHZ.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6278
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:26 pm

smallmj wrote:
At the risk of going off topic, I thought the YUL-YHZ flights were a mix of AC Express and mainline. Yesterday and today they were AC 7556, 7558, 672, 668, and 7566 with the 7000 series operated by express and the 600 series operated by mainline on A320 aircraft. It doesn't affect your point though since no 737 Max aircraft currently operate the route, so the YUL pilots would have to meet their aircraft in YHZ.

That is correct. But as I said above, another factor is the longer flying time from YHZ-LHR. If looking at 672 YUL-YHZ, as you note, an A320, operates 1600-1828, then 860 YHZ-LHR 2025-0630. In my opinion with roughly 2 hours between flights, that would be acceptable. And with a bit more control over the AC flight YUL-YHZ, again, acceptable.

However, the duty day would be about 11 hours. With a max duty day of 12 hours on an operation like this, I am guessing those smarter than me have decided that the risk was not worth it, especially out of YHZ. In the winter, it can be a bit of a bear. So, the crew positions into YHZ the night before, then when they start their operation out of YHZ, they actually have about 4 1/2 hours to play with, should delays arise.

As only YUL crews do the Atlantic on the Max, a duty delay out of YHZ would require bringing in another crew from YUL, ... the end result would likely be another discussion on this site about the horrendous delay followed by, or including the facebook comments! ;)

As more 737s arrive, I think you will see more efficient use of crews, much like when YWG A320 crews were doing the A319 YYT-LHR.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5410
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:54 pm

garf25 wrote:
Thanks for such good replies on this question.

You can see my point on this, take out the word 'transatlantic', and I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done. It's more a case of contracts/working arrangements, and even culture that means crew nightstop.
If UK airlines (and have done for years) undertake UK to Egypt returns (East/West), the only difference really with the shortest of the transatlantic hops is the water beneath. BRS SAL was mentioned, but one could argue that fatigue levels could differ due to the flight being North South and being less affected by sunrise/sunset.

Great discussion.


LHR-CAI is quite a bit shorter than LHR-YHZ. Shorter than BOS-PDX. Even DUB-TLV is shorter than LHR-YHZ.

I'm assuming you mean BRS-SID, not SAL? Still shorter than LHR-YHZ.
 
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XLA2008
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:53 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:59 pm

UK-Egypt are VERY close to the legal limits, I have operated many UK-Egypt as crew before and a few times have been stuck down route on a night stop due to delayed departure putting us out of hours to operate the flight back, it’s a horrible duty! Also operated a few LGW-BJL but we carried additional crew onboard so that we could take rest however that was a very tight turnaround and couldn’t afford any delays. Although have to say I have never operated TATL as a round trip, even though some of them would be within legal hours as a return trip it was due to time zone changes in flight, the circadian rhythm of the body causing fatigue etc from sunrise/sunset changes and hours of the flights... but it could be done as a round trip I’m unaware of any actual legal regulations on TATL flights. I also think it wasn’t done as a round trip as most flights towards the west depart in the morning and arrive in the morning and then depart in the evening to arrive the following morning which you couldn’t operate legally as you’d be on turnaround for a very long time.
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