george77300
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:00 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
garf25 wrote:
Thanks for such good replies on this question.

You can see my point on this, take out the word 'transatlantic', and I don't see any reason why this couldn't be done. It's more a case of contracts/working arrangements, and even culture that means crew nightstop.
If UK airlines (and have done for years) undertake UK to Egypt returns (East/West), the only difference really with the shortest of the transatlantic hops is the water beneath. BRS SAL was mentioned, but one could argue that fatigue levels could differ due to the flight being North South and being less affected by sunrise/sunset.

Great discussion.


LHR-CAI is quite a bit shorter than LHR-YHZ. Shorter than BOS-PDX. Even DUB-TLV is shorter than LHR-YHZ.

I'm assuming you mean BRS-SID, not SAL? Still shorter than LHR-YHZ.


LHR-CAI is shorter. But NCL-HRG is very similar distance wise. That’s a long day as mentioned.

george77300 wrote:
Yes for example the NCL-HRG (Newcastle, UK - Hurghada, Egypt) flights are 2 sector days. That’s 13 hours from takeoff to landing back at Newcastle plus commute to airport and prep before. A long day.
Timings:
1100-1830
1945-2355
 
phllax
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 pm

AA94 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
SoCalFlyer wrote:
BOS-PDX-BOS when we have it is a red eye turn.


Does the flight deck do that as a turn too?

I know years ago when they flew JFK-TUS, the flight crew did it as a turn. It sounded miserable when they mentioned it to me. I'd be sucking on the oxygen mask the whole leg east.


Negative. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any flight crew pairings built as transcon turns. For inflight, JFK-ABQ; JFK-DEN; JFK-RNO; JFK-SLC; BOS-DEN; BOS-SLC; MCO-LAX are ones that come to mind as transcon turns.


Is the daylight JFK-BUR still a turn?
 
garf25
Topic Author
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:26 pm

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:58 pm

So, Air Canada YYT - LHR return. Can it:

a. Be done legally
b. Be done within agreed union working arrangements

Thanks :)
 
matt
Posts: 740
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:36 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 pm

longhauler wrote:
smallmj wrote:
At the risk of going off topic, I thought the YUL-YHZ flights were a mix of AC Express and mainline. Yesterday and today they were AC 7556, 7558, 672, 668, and 7566 with the 7000 series operated by express and the 600 series operated by mainline on A320 aircraft. It doesn't affect your point though since no 737 Max aircraft currently operate the route, so the YUL pilots would have to meet their aircraft in YHZ.

That is correct. But as I said above, another factor is the longer flying time from YHZ-LHR. If looking at 672 YUL-YHZ, as you note, an A320, operates 1600-1828, then 860 YHZ-LHR 2025-0630. In my opinion with roughly 2 hours between flights, that would be acceptable. And with a bit more control over the AC flight YUL-YHZ, again, acceptable.

However, the duty day would be about 11 hours. With a max duty day of 12 hours on an operation like this, I am guessing those smarter than me have decided that the risk was not worth it, especially out of YHZ. In the winter, it can be a bit of a bear. So, the crew positions into YHZ the night before, then when they start their operation out of YHZ, they actually have about 4 1/2 hours to play with, should delays arise.

As only YUL crews do the Atlantic on the Max, a duty delay out of YHZ would require bringing in another crew from YUL, ... the end result would likely be another discussion on this site about the horrendous delay followed by, or including the facebook comments! ;)

As more 737s arrive, I think you will see more efficient use of crews, much like when YWG A320 crews were doing the A319 YYT-LHR.


Thank you, Longhauler, for this information. As I said in my previous post, I know there was a logical explanation for this. Makes sense. Crew scheduling is very complex and many factors have to be considered.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-MIA-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-FRA-MLA-FRA-YUL-YQM
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6274
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

Re: Norwegian and Air Canada 737 MAX Transatlantic crew

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:27 am

garf25 wrote:
So, Air Canada YYT - LHR return. Can it:

a. Be done legally
b. Be done within agreed union working arrangements

Thanks :)


longhauler wrote:
It is in Air Canada's contract that after any eastbound Trans-Atlantic flight, a layover must follow. So even though YYT-LHR-YYT would technically be within Canadian Air Regs, for fatigue issues it is not done. If an enroute diversion is made, it is up to the crew to assess their condition whether to continue. It would be allowed for them not to continue per the contract, but per CARs, they could continue.


While I did answer that earlier, it is actually a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, it could be done legally, per CARs, but not the way it is scheduled. The aircraft sits on the ground in LHR for about 5 hours. This allows more connections to the westbound flight.

So YYT-LHR-YYT would be within Canadian Air Regs, but only if the aircraft sat for an hour at LHR then returned.

Among the most senior pilot pairings sought after at AC are the (daytime) long single day turns. YYZ-SFO-YYZ, YUL-YVR-YUL, YYZ-AUA-YYZ for example. Actually with a morning start from your own bed, returning that night to your own bed and time zone, it is not even remotely tiring! When I was a (senior) A320 Captain I did YYZ-YVR-YYZ turns on Tuesdays and YYZ-AUA-YYZ turns on Thursdays. It was a pretty easy 85 hour month when you only fly 8 days!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!

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