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Taxi645
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Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:56 am

Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?


Probably the thing that is costing Airbus the most money right now is narrowbody engine availability and reliability. Lack of sufficient supply of reliable engines is a constrained on combined A220/A320 ramp up.

Introducing an ultrafan for the A220-A320-200 thrust class has several advantages:

- Helps lift engine constraints for Airbus.
- Gives Airbus another SFC boost to the A320 when Boeing probably has it's hands full on NMA.
- Provides RR with a extra and steady revenue stream.
- Excluding the A321 thrust class allows it's core to be better optimized for the A220. The A321 can then group together with the LR and XLR (and possibly A322) with a larger core.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:49 am

No. And here's why:

1. RR has their hands full trying to iron out problems with the engines they already have.
2. A new program takes AGES to bring to market; by that time, GE/LEAP and PW will have their respective acts together, and the opportunity will have passed.
3. What's the market for this? The need is already being met (even if the options are currently a complete disaster).
4. Airbus has already JUST FINISHED a re-engine of the A320. That's a monumentally expensive process, and they won't be keen to dump the brand new LEAP or GTF option for another new program which will, inevitably, have its own EIS problems.
 
LDRA
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:22 am

Better to reactivate IAE partnership to help PW fix GTF. Airbus should drive this if PW still can't get GTF fixed

PW either has cultural issues or their product development process is broken.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:41 am

Rolls Royce needs to sort out its obligations as they currently stand before they attempt to tackle any projects. With the complete lack of adequate quality control they've had on project after project frankly they're lucky they're still in business as is.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:52 am

madpropsyo wrote:
With the complete lack of adequate quality control they've had on project after project frankly they're lucky they're still in business as is.

Jesus it only took three threads. Why not bash GE when GE90 was hell, CFM for the Leap disaster and PW for the whole lots of issue with GTF? Unless you provide with proof what you said is complete nonsense.

Michael
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:56 am

eamondzhang wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
With the complete lack of adequate quality control they've had on project after project frankly they're lucky they're still in business as is.

Jesus it only took three threads. Why not bash GE when GE90 was hell, CFM for the Leap disaster and PW for the whole lots of issue with GTF? Unless you provide with proof what you said is complete nonsense.

Michael



Here's one entitled "Rolls-Royce engine woes stretch company to the limit" Will that suffice?

https://www.ft.com/content/90847700-e41 ... 2428919cee
 
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Taxi645
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:33 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
No. And here's why:
1. RR has their hands full trying to iron out problems with the engines they already have.


We would be talking post 2025 EIS....


2. A new program takes AGES to bring to market; by that time, GE/LEAP and PW will have their respective acts together, and the opportunity will have passed.


There is always opportunity if there is enough improvement potential.


3. What's the market for this? The need is already being met (even if the options are currently a complete disaster).


A 50+ planes a month market?!?




4. Airbus has already JUST FINISHED a re-engine of the A320. That's a monumentally expensive process, and they won't be keen to dump the brand new LEAP or GTF option for another new program which will, inevitably, have its own EIS problems.


First flight was 2014..... By 2025 that's more than a decade! That's a normal period for a new engine.

Apart from the SFC improvement from tech level the smaller core would be lighter and provide higher bypass ratio on the A220. This would also help reduce range reduction for a 500 simple strech.

Apart from the above it would provide engine choise on the A220 and make room for the PW GTF the focus on the more capable part of the A320 series (A321XLR etc).

A significant SFC boost coinciding with an updated wing(box) for the A320 could put Boeing into trouble when they're having their hands full with NMA.

I would agree though that a partnership would be more likely than RR going at it alone.
Innovation is seeing opportunity before obstacle.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:56 pm

It would probably be an uphill fight against PW. It seems 35-50k lbs would seem a better space. Probably they are working on this already. Cooperation in an alliance with companies like GE, PW, Safran, Honeywell, MTU would improve feasibility / access to additional technology and financing. PW/MTU would maybe be the best.

Image

That fan blade pitch for reverse gives me headaches when imagining the airstreams.. what would feed air to the core engine? How about compressor stall...
Last edited by keesje on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
cc2314
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:57 pm

Only one thing springs to mind with rr and aviation right now.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:02 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
Rolls Royce needs to sort out its obligations as they currently stand before they attempt to tackle any projects. With the complete lack of adequate quality control they've had on project after project frankly they're lucky they're still in business as is.

RR will be kicked out of the business if they do not get onto new platforms. It is a balance.
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
fsabo
Posts: 189
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:47 pm

keesje wrote:
It would probably be an uphill fight against PW. It seems 35-50k lbs would seem a better space. Probably they are working on this already. Cooperation in an alliance with companies like GE, PW, Safran, Honeywell, MTU would improve feasibility / access to additional technology and financing. PW/MTU would maybe be the best.

Image

That fan blade pitch for reverse gives me headaches when imagining the airstreams.. what would feed air to the core engine? How about compressor stall...


As I see it when the fan tips are in negative pitch for reverse thrust, the inner part of the fan will still be in positive pitch and pushing air towards the compressor. Am I missing something?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Should RR launch an ultra-fan for A220 to A320-200 thrust class?

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:51 pm

RR has the 330 and 350 sole sourced and is on the 787, they need to be 1 of 2 engines on the 797, but all of their issues makes getting a new program running right is difficult. Meanwhile PW has roared back with its GTF, lots of problems but now producing 50+ engines a month. Once that smooths out it will be hard to get back in the market with both Leap and the GTF having the market. The V2500 production is ramping down.

The problems with the Trents on the 787 has shifted new orders toward GE, they started with over 50% but recent engine orders are going 2/3 with GE, in particular with airlines that do not have RR already on the 787

So it needs to get on new platforms that are successful.

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