Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:53 pm

parapente wrote:
It's around now ( I believe) that the new even larger overhead bins are being introduced as part of the interior upgrade.


Can't wait until more of the A320 fleet gets these (called "Airspace XL" in Airbus-speak). AA, at least, will be retrofitting its newer A319s and A321s with them. In my experience the 737 Space Bins have drastically reduced overhead space conflicts and issues, compared with either the original Sky Interior bins or the 737NG fixed bins, and Airspace XL should have the same effect.
 
Carpethead
Posts: 2619
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:15 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:37 pm

So how come AF & NH retired their A320-200s after about 20 to 24 years in service, while LH & AC keep going?
LH has a tendency to keep their fleet modern, so why did they not replace their old A320s with new CEOs or NEOs?
The old Braniff A320-231s inherited by HP-US-AA were retired the past couple of years. NW retired some of their early builds back when they were in Chapter 11.
Air India's are an anomaly due to their four-wheel main gears but I think most of them are now removed from service.
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:45 pm

Carpethead wrote:
So how come AF & NH retired their A320-200s after about 20 to 24 years in service, while LH & AC keep going?
LH has a tendency to keep their fleet modern, so why did they not replace their old A320s with new CEOs or NEOs?
The old Braniff A320-231s inherited by HP-US-AA were retired the past couple of years. NW retired some of their early builds back when they were in Chapter 11.
Air India's are an anomaly due to their four-wheel main gears but I think most of them are now removed from service.


LH and AC have pretty extensive maintenance and repair ops, no? That might be part of the reason.

AC has spent a lot on new aircraft since 2008 - new 777s, 787s and new 737 MAX. Taking on excessive debt after restructuring by replacing serviceable A320s earlier might not have been in the cards - they needed a new long-haul fleet worse than narrowbody replacement.

This is all speculation, of course.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:06 am

Carpethead wrote:
So how come AF & NH retired their A320-200s after about 20 to 24 years in service, while LH & AC keep going?
LH has a tendency to keep their fleet modern, so why did they not replace their old A320s with new CEOs or NEOs?


IL and D checks are expensive. So whenever a big check is due, you always ask yourself if the check is worth the effort. Given the condition of the aircraft it might make sense to do a check on a 24yr old bird.

As for LH there was no reason to remove the old A320s as they were still in good condition. It's as simple as that. Without the 30yr IL I guess they would've used them up to the ESG cycle limit
 
User avatar
sergegva
Topic Author
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:12 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:42 am

I'm interested to know if all old LH A320 are very close to their next heavy check, or if some of them have still 1 or 2 years before it, and thus will pass the 30 years mark.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:57 am

sergegva wrote:
Jordan Aviation's Airbus A320 JY-JAC, 29th on the line, ex-Ansett Airlines, BH Air & Greece Airways, first flight January 5th, 1989, just became the first A320 to reach 30 years in service last week.
According to FR24, it is currently flying segments around Ammann almost every day.

What kind of flights does it operate? Scheduled? Charter? Wet lease flights for another carrier? Wikipedia in english indicates that Jordan Aviation also operates flights for the UN peacekeeping forces...

Next aircraft to break the 30 years mark will be Kulula's ZS-GAR & ZS-GAW in Johannesburg (April 25th and June 6th this year), then Lufthansa's D-AIPA (August 2nd). Does anyone know if the date of the next major maintenance of Lufthansa and Air Canada's 1989 A320s is still far enough away to allow these aircraft to bite into their 31st year, or will they be withdrawn before the end of this year?


A320s are just more awesome than any narrow body. When I finally got the seniority I wanted on the 737, 757 and 320 at my airline I went and looked at the trips each flew, the 737 had at the time some better trips... then I looked at the cockpits.

Hell no am I going to th 737. I’d flown the 88, that thing was crap, reminded me of it in a lot of ways. I had done the 757 but the 320 had better technology. A few years later we got the new 321s and man have they been a joy to fly.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1285
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:10 pm

They really utilized this aircraft don't they, lol.

The cycle must be pretty low. Let's see if we could find one that reach 35-40 years of age in couple years.
Last edited by ewt340 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15272
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:11 pm

d8s wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
So much for the a.net reputation that Airbus aircraft are throw-away POS's...


They are the reason duct tape was invented..


Not duct tape, speed tape ;)
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
xwb565
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:17 pm

The older a320s while sturdy birds are said to be a pain in terms of hydraulics reliability. I am not sure if the hydraulics are upgrade-able to newer standards during heavy checks.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:42 pm

sergegva wrote:
I'm interested to know if all old LH A320 are very close to their next heavy check, or if some of them have still 1 or 2 years before it, and thus will pass the 30 years mark.


Planning is volatile (inspection findings, capacity, economy) but most likely there will be LH A320s flying in their 30s in the near future. No bird is expected to enter its 32nd year.
 
GianiDC
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:30 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:18 pm

sergegva wrote:

Meanwhile, Jordan Aviation's JY-JAC (30 years and 5 months) is still flying daily, but was sent to Central America in March 2019.
Does anyone know what company he's flying for now?

It should be flying for Cubana according to Flightradar 24. Even regullary into CCS.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:21 pm

Several people have made reference to the increasing costs of HMVs as an airplane ages. My response: so what? Its still several tens of millions of dollars less than a new airplane and the engines/fuel burn are essentially unchanged comoared to a new CFM56 powered variant. I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit?

Imho the A320 was the crowning achievement of Airbus and has defined tbe company. And I was not initally a fan, I was win over.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:34 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit


2000 cycles per year, 60k limit with ESG -> 30yrs. That's a typical utilization where I work.
I guess we will see A320s getting significantly older as I suppose there are a lot of them not flown on 7-8 cycles/day missions but fly on longer routes. At least that's why the ESG increased the hour/cycle ratio from 1.2 to 2.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20556
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:01 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Several people have made reference to the increasing costs of HMVs as an airplane ages. My response: so what? Its still several tens of millions of dollars less than a new airplane and the engines/fuel burn are essentially unchanged comoared to a new CFM56 powered variant. I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit?

Imho the A320 was the crowning achievement of Airbus and has defined tbe company. And I was not initally a fan, I was win over.

So what is one more factor in the replacement decision. An A320NEO burns $135,000 less fuel per month, but has a $300,000 lease payment. (My $100k is vs. a new CEO). A HMV already costs about $4.5 million. For these old airframes, they just aren't as reliable as a new. For new aircraft, For new aircraft, one has a ready standby 5% to 6% if the fleet. For 30 year old aircraft, double the number if standby aircraft. In fact, these are usually kept as the standby aircraft if cheap enough.

Then consider the added fuel burn (Sharklets cannot be retrofitted to the older line numbers, I have a list delineating the phases of A320s).

If you look at cost per flight, the maximum hours per day these older aircraft are economical us about 6.5 hours. There is a reason Allegiant isn't buying older than 14 years for their 7.7 hour per day utilization.

If major cracking or corrosion is found, forget it. That takes six months to fix and $8 million plus. The business case switches to buying newer aircraft.

Also remember these aircraft are worth a minimum of $8 million in scrap value. So not scrapping them is forfeiting a nice payout. One must take the cost of new and subtract scrap value, cost of the HMV, cost of delayed flights (reliability), cost if inability to surge to higher flight hours, cost if added care and attention, cost of not being able to fly longer missions, and cost of fuel.

The higher the daily utilization, they earlier the replacement time. There us a reason EasyJet leases and replaces typically at 12 to 14 years. If one looks at LH, DL, AA, UA, G4, and Vistara, one sees these aircraft sitting on off days (Tuesday, Wednesday, September) and flying reduced duty or sitting as the backup aircraft.

One of the most facinating lessons I've learned while on a.net is the 3 tiers of aircraft utilization.
1. Top tier, 10+ hours per day. Aircraft usually rotated out of this duty by 10 years of age.
2. Mid tier, 8 to 10 hours of duty per day. Airlines like DL buy end if line 739s or A320 CEOs for this duty (or anything else sold at a bargain) or hand me down older aircraft. This is new build freighters (hint, they aren't as profitable to sell or support).
3. Low tier. < 8 hours per day Think Allegiant, Volotea, or DL's MD-80s. Always older aircraft, but prior to the max grounding younger A319s and as young as 12 year old A320s.

The issue is you are comparing 30 year old, deep in the low tier of utilization to new. AA isn't buying new A319s for this duty, they buy at scrap value planes that are only 12-15 years old. Other airlines use hand me down aircraft.

There is a well established second hand market in aircraft. A we'll run airline looks at a multitude of factors that makes few aircraft reliable enough to consider past 20 years. The fact the A320 has enough continuous improvement to make it to 30 is outstanding.

Even the vaunted MD-80 has trouble at 30 years. You do realize the latest A320CEOs and all NEOs have predictive maintenance built in far more advanced than the pre 2010 A320s? To fully acheive the reliability of new avionics requires:
1. Updating cockpit, about $4 million
2. Replacing the fadacs, not possible on pre-2000 engines (note, I'm estimating the year, anyone know a better number?) at $2 million per aircraft.
3. Replacing the actuators and aircraft wiring. Ouch, this is about $7 million. There is a reason I rarely see this done.

Dispatch misses have a cost. The A320 early birds had some good FBW. Today's predictive maintenance cannot be run on the limited few hundred thousand lines of code the old avionics is limited to. The rule of thumb is that to receive a perceived 2x improvement in software capability, 10x the code must be run which requires 10x the capability.

The 787 predictive maintenance is now working excellently. Yes, it had a rough start, but now instead of the 777 being the benchmark, it is the 787.

I'm not saying CEOs and NGs do not have a future. But once about 5,000 NEOs, MAXes, A220s, and E2s are in service, they will be rightfully looked at like the MD-80s were.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:22 pm

Sorry Lightsaber but...
[Ironi on} Can you please explain LH, that they have to utilize their near 30 years old A220-200 only 6 h per day and not as regular seen, the 14 to 17 h per day and 6 flights/day? [/ironi of}

It seems, LH Group is just not aware, old jets have to fly less hours and circles.

D-AIPB A320-211 70 20.10.1989 29,7 MUC LH active Heidelberg to leave fleet 24OCT 

06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Moscow (DME)   LH2530  2:41 20:00 20:11 00:05 
Landed 23:53  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Budapest (BUD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1679  0:56 16:30 17:07 17:45 
Landed 18:03  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Budapest (BUD)   LH1678  0:53 14:35 14:59 15:50 
Landed 15:52  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Milan (MXP)  Munich (MUC)   LH1857  0:51 12:25 12:40 13:35 
Landed 13:31  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Milan (MXP)   LH1856  0:51 10:40 10:57 11:45 
Landed 11:48  KML  CSV 
 06 Jun 2019 Madrid (MAD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1807  2:07 07:10 07:16 09:35 
Landed 09:23  KML  CSV 


Sources:
https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-aipb
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:34 pm

T4thH wrote:
Sorry Lightsaber but...
[Ironi on} Can you please explain LH, that they have to utilize their near 30 years old A220-200 only 6 h per day and not as regular seen, the 14 to 17 h per day and 6 flights/day? [/ironi of}

It seems, LH Group is just not aware, old jets have to fly less hours and circles.

D-AIPB A320-211 70 20.10.1989 29,7 MUC LH active Heidelberg to leave fleet 24OCT 

06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Moscow (DME)   LH2530  2:41 20:00 20:11 00:05 
Landed 23:53  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Budapest (BUD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1679  0:56 16:30 17:07 17:45 
Landed 18:03  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Budapest (BUD)   LH1678  0:53 14:35 14:59 15:50 
Landed 15:52  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Milan (MXP)  Munich (MUC)   LH1857  0:51 12:25 12:40 13:35 
Landed 13:31  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Milan (MXP)   LH1856  0:51 10:40 10:57 11:45 
Landed 11:48  KML  CSV 
 06 Jun 2019 Madrid (MAD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1807  2:07 07:10 07:16 09:35 
Landed 09:23  KML  CSV 


Sources:
https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-aipb


So 1 day worth of evidence and lightsabers excellent post is trash?

He clearly stated that these aircraft are typically used low time and as spares. If they need to put in a 17hr day they can. But Lightsaber correctly pointed out that a 30 year old jet can’t do this everyday the reliability isn’t there.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19281
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:36 pm

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:48 pm

To be fair, this is LH group and this are Germans (as me), we are all little bit different...

Which airline in the world will fly their birds from first to last day, have their own maintenance facilities AND at the end of the live of the birds will scrap them in one of their own maintenance facilities? Papa Alpha (PAIA) is now at the LH maintenace facility in Bulgaria in scrapping by LH technics.
All these old birds are still in heavy daily duty
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Several people have made reference to the increasing costs of HMVs as an airplane ages. My response: so what? Its still several tens of millions of dollars less than a new airplane and the engines/fuel burn are essentially unchanged comoared to a new CFM56 powered variant. I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit?

Imho the A320 was the crowning achievement of Airbus and has defined tbe company. And I was not initally a fan, I was win over.

So what is one more factor in the replacement decision. An A320NEO burns $135,000 less fuel per month, but has a $300,000 lease payment. (My $100k is vs. a new CEO). A HMV already costs about $4.5 million. For these old airframes, they just aren't as reliable as a new. For new aircraft, For new aircraft, one has a ready standby 5% to 6% if the fleet. For 30 year old aircraft, double the number if standby aircraft. In fact, these are usually kept as the standby aircraft if cheap enough.

Then consider the added fuel burn (Sharklets cannot be retrofitted to the older line numbers, I have a list delineating the phases of A320s).

If you look at cost per flight, the maximum hours per day these older aircraft are economical us about 6.5 hours. There is a reason Allegiant isn't buying older than 14 years for their 7.7 hour per day utilization.

If major cracking or corrosion is found, forget it. That takes six months to fix and $8 million plus. The business case switches to buying newer aircraft.

Also remember these aircraft are worth a minimum of $8 million in scrap value. So not scrapping them is forfeiting a nice payout. One must take the cost of new and subtract scrap value, cost of the HMV, cost of delayed flights (reliability), cost if inability to surge to higher flight hours, cost if added care and attention, cost of not being able to fly longer missions, and cost of fuel.

The higher the daily utilization, they earlier the replacement time. There us a reason EasyJet leases and replaces typically at 12 to 14 years. If one looks at LH, DL, AA, UA, G4, and Vistara, one sees these aircraft sitting on off days (Tuesday, Wednesday, September) and flying reduced duty or sitting as the backup aircraft.

One of the most facinating lessons I've learned while on a.net is the 3 tiers of aircraft utilization.
1. Top tier, 10+ hours per day. Aircraft usually rotated out of this duty by 10 years of age.
2. Mid tier, 8 to 10 hours of duty per day. Airlines like DL buy end if line 739s or A320 CEOs for this duty (or anything else sold at a bargain) or hand me down older aircraft. This is new build freighters (hint, they aren't as profitable to sell or support).
3. Low tier. < 8 hours per day Think Allegiant, Volotea, or DL's MD-80s. Always older aircraft, but prior to the max grounding younger A319s and as young as 12 year old A320s.

The issue is you are comparing 30 year old, deep in the low tier of utilization to new. AA isn't buying new A319s for this duty, they buy at scrap value planes that are only 12-15 years old. Other airlines use hand me down aircraft.

There is a well established second hand market in aircraft. A we'll run airline looks at a multitude of factors that makes few aircraft reliable enough to consider past 20 years. The fact the A320 has enough continuous improvement to make it to 30 is outstanding.

Even the vaunted MD-80 has trouble at 30 years. You do realize the latest A320CEOs and all NEOs have predictive maintenance built in far more advanced than the pre 2010 A320s? To fully acheive the reliability of new avionics requires:
1. Updating cockpit, about $4 million
2. Replacing the fadacs, not possible on pre-2000 engines (note, I'm estimating the year, anyone know a better number?) at $2 million per aircraft.
3. Replacing the actuators and aircraft wiring. Ouch, this is about $7 million. There is a reason I rarely see this done.

Dispatch misses have a cost. The A320 early birds had some good FBW. Today's predictive maintenance cannot be run on the limited few hundred thousand lines of code the old avionics is limited to. The rule of thumb is that to receive a perceived 2x improvement in software capability, 10x the code must be run which requires 10x the capability.

The 787 predictive maintenance is now working excellently. Yes, it had a rough start, but now instead of the 777 being the benchmark, it is the 787.

I'm not saying CEOs and NGs do not have a future. But once about 5,000 NEOs, MAXes, A220s, and E2s are in service, they will be rightfully looked at like the MD-80s were.

Lightsaber


These older '88/89 birds are still part of the same generation and variant as a brand new CEO off the line today. I agree with SteelChair, we will see these CEO's going well into their 30's after all of the newer 767's and 757's from the 2000's have become beer cans.

Airbus hasn't changed the design in 30 years because they don't have to - technology has not changed in 30 years.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:57 pm

Babyshark wrote:
sergegva wrote:
Jordan Aviation's Airbus A320 JY-JAC, 29th on the line, ex-Ansett Airlines, BH Air & Greece Airways, first flight January 5th, 1989, just became the first A320 to reach 30 years in service last week.
According to FR24, it is currently flying segments around Ammann almost every day.

What kind of flights does it operate? Scheduled? Charter? Wet lease flights for another carrier? Wikipedia in english indicates that Jordan Aviation also operates flights for the UN peacekeeping forces...

Next aircraft to break the 30 years mark will be Kulula's ZS-GAR & ZS-GAW in Johannesburg (April 25th and June 6th this year), then Lufthansa's D-AIPA (August 2nd). Does anyone know if the date of the next major maintenance of Lufthansa and Air Canada's 1989 A320s is still far enough away to allow these aircraft to bite into their 31st year, or will they be withdrawn before the end of this year?


A320s are just more awesome than any narrow body. When I finally got the seniority I wanted on the 737, 757 and 320 at my airline I went and looked at the trips each flew, the 737 had at the time some better trips... then I looked at the cockpits.

Hell no am I going to th 737. I’d flown the 88, that thing was crap, reminded me of it in a lot of ways. I had done the 757 but the 320 had better technology. A few years later we got the new 321s and man have they been a joy to fly.


It's the 1988 Factor. We're still in that year technologically.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
T4thH
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:00 pm

scbriml wrote:


OK, Air Canada bird C.FDQQ, one of the 15 oldest A320-200 still flying...

07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC255  1:17 22:30 23:16 23:03  
Landed 23:33  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Edmonton (YEG)   AC248  1:27 19:10 19:31 21:39 
Landed 21:58  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC251  1:13 17:30 17:32 18:03 
Landed 17:45  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Edmonton (YEG)   AC242  1:12 14:10 14:29 16:39 
Landed 16:41  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Calgary (YYC)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC215  1:26 12:15 12:31 12:41 
Landed 12:56  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Calgary (YYC)   AC206  1:29 09:00 09:03 11:23 
Landed 11:32  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC237  1:18 07:40 07:45 08:13 
Landed 08:03  KML  CSV 


Perhaps we have just to accept, these workhorses are able to do it, if they get the correct maintenace.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20556
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:23 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
sergegva wrote:
Jordan Aviation's Airbus A320 JY-JAC, 29th on the line, ex-Ansett Airlines, BH Air & Greece Airways, first flight January 5th, 1989, just became the first A320 to reach 30 years in service last week.
According to FR24, it is currently flying segments around Ammann almost every day.

What kind of flights does it operate? Scheduled? Charter? Wet lease flights for another carrier? Wikipedia in english indicates that Jordan Aviation also operates flights for the UN peacekeeping forces...

Next aircraft to break the 30 years mark will be Kulula's ZS-GAR & ZS-GAW in Johannesburg (April 25th and June 6th this year), then Lufthansa's D-AIPA (August 2nd). Does anyone know if the date of the next major maintenance of Lufthansa and Air Canada's 1989 A320s is still far enough away to allow these aircraft to bite into their 31st year, or will they be withdrawn before the end of this year?


A320s are just more awesome than any narrow body. When I finally got the seniority I wanted on the 737, 757 and 320 at my airline I went and looked at the trips each flew, the 737 had at the time some better trips... then I looked at the cockpits.

Hell no am I going to th 737. I’d flown the 88, that thing was crap, reminded me of it in a lot of ways. I had done the 757 but the 320 had better technology. A few years later we got the new 321s and man have they been a joy to fly.


It's the 1988 Factor. We're still in that year technologically.

LoL, no. Technology has moved on.

CFRP wings
predictive maintenance (avionics (
Underside laminar flow
Electrical subsystems (A220 saves 3% in fuel burn vs. A320 tech, next gen is better, half the line maintenance).
3D printing (it is time to design for the monolithic structures now possible).
Wider isles
Improved crown shape (more carry-on bags)
Better tail configurations (free cabin space). E.g., CFRP bulkhead a la 737-900ER.

Then all the stuff that could be retrofitted.

With all due respect, I read posts on how the DC-9 wing was the peak.

Upcoming tech:. Folding wingtips. Huge! I can design a CFRP wing with 4% lower fuel burn adding this tech. I couldn't be a bigger fan of the oh so simple concept.

What I don't get:. GLARE and other fancy alloys helped save weight in the past, why are these not applied more to narrowbodies?

I like the A320, do not get me wrong. But there is a reason the A220 will sell well. I'm a fan of the A220-500 concept, but until Toulouse can make A321s, Airbus cannot risk that.

I'm an engine nut, but half of the improvements, or more, are still in the airframe side. The simple fix of flying higher for less drag still applies (lack of this killed the MD-90 IMHO)

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
CHRISBA35X
Posts: 200
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:40 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:37 pm

Incredible really when you think about it. The hope is that one or two of these record breaking birds find homes in museums after they've flown a few more years.
 
Starfuryt
Posts: 195
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:58 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:53 pm

According to this: https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

all LH A320 between D-AIPB (msn 70) and D-AIQH (msn 217) will leave fleet by 2021, thjey should all be right around 30 years by the end of service. D-AIPB is stated to fly 4 days past 30th delivery anniversary.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:55 pm

T4thH wrote:
scbriml wrote:


OK, Air Canada bird C.FDQQ, one of the 15 oldest A320-200 still flying...

07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC255  1:17 22:30 23:16 23:03  
Landed 23:33  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Edmonton (YEG)   AC248  1:27 19:10 19:31 21:39 
Landed 21:58  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC251  1:13 17:30 17:32 18:03 
Landed 17:45  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Edmonton (YEG)   AC242  1:12 14:10 14:29 16:39 
Landed 16:41  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Calgary (YYC)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC215  1:26 12:15 12:31 12:41 
Landed 12:56  KML  CSV 
07 Jun 2019 Vancouver (YVR)  Calgary (YYC)   AC206  1:29 09:00 09:03 11:23 
Landed 11:32  KML  CSV 
 07 Jun 2019 Edmonton (YEG)  Vancouver (YVR)   AC237  1:18 07:40 07:45 08:13 
Landed 08:03  KML  CSV 


Perhaps we have just to accept, these workhorses are able to do it, if they get the correct maintenace.


Cripes - these things are the same age as me and are still considered state-of-the-art.

I guess my guilt fooling around with those 17 year olds recently was unwarranted :rotfl:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19281
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:13 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
It's the 1988 Factor. We're still in that year technologically.


Seriously dude, you need to move on.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1449
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:08 pm

lightsaber wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

A320s are just more awesome than any narrow body. When I finally got the seniority I wanted on the 737, 757 and 320 at my airline I went and looked at the trips each flew, the 737 had at the time some better trips... then I looked at the cockpits.

Hell no am I going to th 737. I’d flown the 88, that thing was crap, reminded me of it in a lot of ways. I had done the 757 but the 320 had better technology. A few years later we got the new 321s and man have they been a joy to fly.


It's the 1988 Factor. We're still in that year technologically.

LoL, no. Technology has moved on.

CFRP wings
predictive maintenance (avionics (
Underside laminar flow
Electrical subsystems (A220 saves 3% in fuel burn vs. A320 tech, next gen is better, half the line maintenance).
3D printing (it is time to design for the monolithic structures now possible).
Wider isles
Improved crown shape (more carry-on bags)
Better tail configurations (free cabin space). E.g., CFRP bulkhead a la 737-900ER.

Then all the stuff that could be retrofitted.

With all due respect, I read posts on how the DC-9 wing was the peak.

Upcoming tech:. Folding wingtips. Huge! I can design a CFRP wing with 4% lower fuel burn adding this tech. I couldn't be a bigger fan of the oh so simple concept.

What I don't get:. GLARE and other fancy alloys helped save weight in the past, why are these not applied more to narrowbodies?

I like the A320, do not get me wrong. But there is a reason the A220 will sell well. I'm a fan of the A220-500 concept, but until Toulouse can make A321s, Airbus cannot risk that.

I'm an engine nut, but half of the improvements, or more, are still in the airframe side. The simple fix of flying higher for less drag still applies (lack of this killed the MD-90 IMHO)

Lightsaber


With all due respect to your generally informative and thoughtful posts, I disagree with most of this post.

Most of the improvements you cite are marginal, and some are questionable. I've heard about reduced Line Maintenance for years. It never happens. For example, predictive maintenance. It doesn't mean the part won't have to be replaced, it just means it will be replaced before a service interruption (breaks at an outstation). And in many cases (I've seen it over and over) enhanced software and tech doesn't decrease workload, it increases it. Airline managers inevitably try to slice the apple finer, putting more parts "on condition" for example.

Weight savings doesn't matter much on short stage lengths. Imo the MD90 was killed because it was a crappy airplane built by a crappy company, with crappy engines to boot. I don't see airframe improvements of any significant percentage until we go to nonstandard shapes (flying wing?). Each successive tweak of a fraction of a percent makes subsequent improvement more difficult to achieve. I love the way some of the enthusiasts here say an airframe or an engine manufacturer and just do a pip and get another improvement....as if they didn't try hard enough in the previous 30 years of design and pips and further improvement are there for the taking.

CFRP wing. Hmmm. I would love for a nerd to produce a comparison between the MD80 wing and the CS100 wing. They have exactly the same area and almost exactly the same fuel capacity. Of course the shape is different and different aero is produced, and generally speaking the 80 wing is more optimized for short legs. I would love to know the weight differnce of the 2 wings. The CS is a heavy little airplane, I'm guessing the high weight is driven mostly by the GTF. But that GTF has to be supported by the pylon and wing.. ..which means more structure.

Folding wing producing -4% fuel burn? Hard to believe. Sure the span will be bigger, but it'll be heavier and most gates aren't constrained for narrowbody airplanes flying shorter routes in any event. Why not just make a wing with a longer fixed span? Once again, I could see it for long haul only.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:36 pm

Airbus did a fairly good job with this design... minus the A318 version of course.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
T4thH
Posts: 1101
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:51 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Airbus did a fairly good job with this design... minus the A318 version of course.

And of course, they expected, that only 700 A320 will be build...LOL.
 
tropical
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:04 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Several people have made reference to the increasing costs of HMVs as an airplane ages. My response: so what? Its still several tens of millions of dollars less than a new airplane and the engines/fuel burn are essentially unchanged comoared to a new CFM56 powered variant. I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit?

Imho the A320 was the crowning achievement of Airbus and has defined tbe company. And I was not initally a fan, I was win over.

So what is one more factor in the replacement decision. An A320NEO burns $135,000 less fuel per month, but has a $300,000 lease payment. (My $100k is vs. a new CEO). A HMV already costs about $4.5 million. For these old airframes, they just aren't as reliable as a new. For new aircraft, For new aircraft, one has a ready standby 5% to 6% if the fleet. For 30 year old aircraft, double the number if standby aircraft. In fact, these are usually kept as the standby aircraft if cheap enough.

Then consider the added fuel burn (Sharklets cannot be retrofitted to the older line numbers, I have a list delineating the phases of A320s).

If you look at cost per flight, the maximum hours per day these older aircraft are economical us about 6.5 hours. There is a reason Allegiant isn't buying older than 14 years for their 7.7 hour per day utilization.

If major cracking or corrosion is found, forget it. That takes six months to fix and $8 million plus. The business case switches to buying newer aircraft.

Also remember these aircraft are worth a minimum of $8 million in scrap value. So not scrapping them is forfeiting a nice payout. One must take the cost of new and subtract scrap value, cost of the HMV, cost of delayed flights (reliability), cost if inability to surge to higher flight hours, cost if added care and attention, cost of not being able to fly longer missions, and cost of fuel.

The higher the daily utilization, they earlier the replacement time. There us a reason EasyJet leases and replaces typically at 12 to 14 years. If one looks at LH, DL, AA, UA, G4, and Vistara, one sees these aircraft sitting on off days (Tuesday, Wednesday, September) and flying reduced duty or sitting as the backup aircraft.

One of the most facinating lessons I've learned while on a.net is the 3 tiers of aircraft utilization.
1. Top tier, 10+ hours per day. Aircraft usually rotated out of this duty by 10 years of age.
2. Mid tier, 8 to 10 hours of duty per day. Airlines like DL buy end if line 739s or A320 CEOs for this duty (or anything else sold at a bargain) or hand me down older aircraft. This is new build freighters (hint, they aren't as profitable to sell or support).
3. Low tier. < 8 hours per day Think Allegiant, Volotea, or DL's MD-80s. Always older aircraft, but prior to the max grounding younger A319s and as young as 12 year old A320s.

The issue is you are comparing 30 year old, deep in the low tier of utilization to new. AA isn't buying new A319s for this duty, they buy at scrap value planes that are only 12-15 years old. Other airlines use hand me down aircraft.

There is a well established second hand market in aircraft. A we'll run airline looks at a multitude of factors that makes few aircraft reliable enough to consider past 20 years. The fact the A320 has enough continuous improvement to make it to 30 is outstanding.

Even the vaunted MD-80 has trouble at 30 years. You do realize the latest A320CEOs and all NEOs have predictive maintenance built in far more advanced than the pre 2010 A320s? To fully acheive the reliability of new avionics requires:
1. Updating cockpit, about $4 million
2. Replacing the fadacs, not possible on pre-2000 engines (note, I'm estimating the year, anyone know a better number?) at $2 million per aircraft.
3. Replacing the actuators and aircraft wiring. Ouch, this is about $7 million. There is a reason I rarely see this done.

Dispatch misses have a cost. The A320 early birds had some good FBW. Today's predictive maintenance cannot be run on the limited few hundred thousand lines of code the old avionics is limited to. The rule of thumb is that to receive a perceived 2x improvement in software capability, 10x the code must be run which requires 10x the capability.

The 787 predictive maintenance is now working excellently. Yes, it had a rough start, but now instead of the 777 being the benchmark, it is the 787.

I'm not saying CEOs and NGs do not have a future. But once about 5,000 NEOs, MAXes, A220s, and E2s are in service, they will be rightfully looked at like the MD-80s were.

Lightsaber


Thank you for this most interesting and informative post, lightsaber :smile:
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:39 pm

sergegva wrote:
Next on the list to reach 30 years old are:

ZS-GAL, another ex-Braniff flying for Correndon: July 12th

And it still flies! Bringing people to Antalya every day, ZS-GAL celebrated its 30th birthday three days ago.



We'll see if it reaches the age of the previous holder of this reg, a DC-9-30 that was scrapped somewhere between 2007 and 2012 after at least 33 years of service.
There's also a photo of the current ZS-GAL in her birthday suit in the database:
 
WIederling
Posts: 9421
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:47 pm

T4thH wrote:
Sorry Lightsaber but...
[Ironi on} Can you please explain LH, that they have to utilize their near 30 years old A220-200 only 6 h per day and not as regular seen, the 14 to 17 h per day and 6 flights/day? [/ironi of}

It seems, LH Group is just not aware, old jets have to fly less hours and circles.

D-AIPB A320-211 70 20.10.1989 29,7 MUC LH active Heidelberg to leave fleet 24OCT 

06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Moscow (DME)   LH2530  2:41 20:00 20:11 00:05 
Landed 23:53  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Budapest (BUD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1679  0:56 16:30 17:07 17:45 
Landed 18:03  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Budapest (BUD)   LH1678  0:53 14:35 14:59 15:50 
Landed 15:52  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Milan (MXP)  Munich (MUC)   LH1857  0:51 12:25 12:40 13:35 
Landed 13:31  KML  CSV 
06 Jun 2019 Munich (MUC)  Milan (MXP)   LH1856  0:51 10:40 10:57 11:45 
Landed 11:48  KML  CSV 
 06 Jun 2019 Madrid (MAD)  Munich (MUC)   LH1807  2:07 07:10 07:16 09:35 
Landed 09:23  KML  CSV 


Sources:
https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-aipb


LH doesn't have old planes.
They have early builds :-)))
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
CarbonFibre
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:56 am

I wonder if ZS-GAL still has the Braniff livery underneath?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20556
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:31 pm

sergegva wrote:
longhauler wrote:
The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".


Indeed! I read a very old topic on airliners.net some times ago. Almost all posters were saying that A300 and A320 were built to serve around 20 years, at a maximum!

Early certification was 48,000 FC and 60,000 FH.

LH won't make 30 years due to being too close to the current limit of 120,000FH to justify maintenance. The 60,000FC is sufficient. For example, the high utilization AS MD-80 is being retired at 87,000+ FH and 48,000 FC (going from memory).

So well done. But before reinforcement was added, the A320 was a 20 year aircraft.

For reference, 737 and MD-80 certified for 110,000 FC (most was HA at, IIRC, 98,000).

737 at 125,000 FH (not all though).
mD-80 150,000 FH

Most widebodies are certified to around 160,000 FH and around 36,000FC. E.g wings and tail age on FH. Body, in particular pressure bulkheads, on cycles. Engines, nacelles, gear on cycles. Some

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3350
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:39 pm

30 years in service, impressive. Bodes well for Allegiant. :D
 
PennPal
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 12:35 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:16 pm

Wow...30 years in service?? What a remarkable airplane, and what a workhorse!! I'm wondering...other than a DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, 707,727,737,747, 757, 767, BAe146, F100 and countless Russian models ...has there ever been an airliner besides the A320 that has reached that unthinkable age??
 
wr911
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Several people have made reference to the increasing costs of HMVs as an airplane ages. My response: so what? Its still several tens of millions of dollars less than a new airplane and the engines/fuel burn are essentially unchanged comoared to a new CFM56 powered variant. I find myself wondering what makes 30 years a magic number for retirement? Until civil aviation airplane design advances, why not fly them indefinitely, or at least out to the cycles/hour limit?

Imho the A320 was the crowning achievement of Airbus and has defined tbe company. And I was not initally a fan, I was win over.

So what is one more factor in the replacement decision. An A320NEO burns $135,000 less fuel per month, but has a $300,000 lease payment. (My $100k is vs. a new CEO). A HMV already costs about $4.5 million. For these old airframes, they just aren't as reliable as a new. For new aircraft, For new aircraft, one has a ready standby 5% to 6% if the fleet. For 30 year old aircraft, double the number if standby aircraft. In fact, these are usually kept as the standby aircraft if cheap enough.

Then consider the added fuel burn (Sharklets cannot be retrofitted to the older line numbers, I have a list delineating the phases of A320s).

If you look at cost per flight, the maximum hours per day these older aircraft are economical us about 6.5 hours. There is a reason Allegiant isn't buying older than 14 years for their 7.7 hour per day utilization.

If major cracking or corrosion is found, forget it. That takes six months to fix and $8 million plus. The business case switches to buying newer aircraft.

Also remember these aircraft are worth a minimum of $8 million in scrap value. So not scrapping them is forfeiting a nice payout. One must take the cost of new and subtract scrap value, cost of the HMV, cost of delayed flights (reliability), cost if inability to surge to higher flight hours, cost if added care and attention, cost of not being able to fly longer missions, and cost of fuel.

The higher the daily utilization, they earlier the replacement time. There us a reason EasyJet leases and replaces typically at 12 to 14 years. If one looks at LH, DL, AA, UA, G4, and Vistara, one sees these aircraft sitting on off days (Tuesday, Wednesday, September) and flying reduced duty or sitting as the backup aircraft.

One of the most facinating lessons I've learned while on a.net is the 3 tiers of aircraft utilization.
1. Top tier, 10+ hours per day. Aircraft usually rotated out of this duty by 10 years of age.
2. Mid tier, 8 to 10 hours of duty per day. Airlines like DL buy end if line 739s or A320 CEOs for this duty (or anything else sold at a bargain) or hand me down older aircraft. This is new build freighters (hint, they aren't as profitable to sell or support).
3. Low tier. < 8 hours per day Think Allegiant, Volotea, or DL's MD-80s. Always older aircraft, but prior to the max grounding younger A319s and as young as 12 year old A320s.

The issue is you are comparing 30 year old, deep in the low tier of utilization to new. AA isn't buying new A319s for this duty, they buy at scrap value planes that are only 12-15 years old. Other airlines use hand me down aircraft.

There is a well established second hand market in aircraft. A we'll run airline looks at a multitude of factors that makes few aircraft reliable enough to consider past 20 years. The fact the A320 has enough continuous improvement to make it to 30 is outstanding.

Even the vaunted MD-80 has trouble at 30 years. You do realize the latest A320CEOs and all NEOs have predictive maintenance built in far more advanced than the pre 2010 A320s? To fully acheive the reliability of new avionics requires:
1. Updating cockpit, about $4 million
2. Replacing the fadacs, not possible on pre-2000 engines (note, I'm estimating the year, anyone know a better number?) at $2 million per aircraft.
3. Replacing the actuators and aircraft wiring. Ouch, this is about $7 million. There is a reason I rarely see this done.

Dispatch misses have a cost. The A320 early birds had some good FBW. Today's predictive maintenance cannot be run on the limited few hundred thousand lines of code the old avionics is limited to. The rule of thumb is that to receive a perceived 2x improvement in software capability, 10x the code must be run which requires 10x the capability.

The 787 predictive maintenance is now working excellently. Yes, it had a rough start, but now instead of the 777 being the benchmark, it is the 787.

I'm not saying CEOs and NGs do not have a future. But once about 5,000 NEOs, MAXes, A220s, and E2s are in service, they will be rightfully looked at like the MD-80s were.

Lightsaber


Very informative information, but Allegiant is now using brand new 319s on a variety of routes. I personally like it because I was never a fan of the MD-80s, speaking purely as a paying customer.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:51 pm

CarbonFibre wrote:
I wonder if ZS-GAL still has the Braniff livery underneath?


This is not how plane painting works, the old paint gets removed before the new paint is applied.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3x53tIBBoJA

PennPal wrote:
Wow...30 years in service?? What a remarkable airplane, and what a workhorse!! I'm wondering...other than a DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, 707,727,737,747, 757, 767, BAe146, F100 and countless Russian models ...has there ever been an airliner besides the A320 that has reached that unthinkable age??


They all made the 30 year mark, but none of the models that did are still being built as passenger aircraft today.
 
migair54
Posts: 2449
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:23 pm

In this link you can see the complete list of all the A320 ever produced.

https://www.airfleets.net/listing/a320-1.htm

Corendon Air, MSN 53, delivered to Braniff 7th Sept 1989 and MSN 54 , delivered to 2nd Sept 1989, Are the next ones in the "seniority" list.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1854
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:29 pm

IWMBH wrote:
CarbonFibre wrote:
I wonder if ZS-GAL still has the Braniff livery underneath?


This is not how plane painting works, the old paint gets removed before the new paint is applied.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3x53tIBBoJA

I thought I remember reading on here that an airline did find an old livery from a previous operator when they stripped a frame to repaint.
Anyone remembers?
 
a2b7
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
sergegva wrote:
longhauler wrote:
The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".


Indeed! I read a very old topic on airliners.net some times ago. Almost all posters were saying that A300 and A320 were built to serve around 20 years, at a maximum!

Early certification was 48,000 FC and 60,000 FH.

LH won't make 30 years due to being too close to the current limit of 120,000FH to justify maintenance. The 60,000FC is sufficient. For example, the high utilization AS MD-80 is being retired at 87,000+ FH and 48,000 FC (going from memory).

I'm sorry lightsaber but I am afraid the old LH A320s are retired based on the cycle limit. (They also were the cycle leaders)
According to a post at https://www.aero.de/forum/Kommentare-zu-aktuellen-Nachrichten/Lufthansa-mustert-ihre-erste-A320-aus/ , D-AIPA for example was retired with 56983 FC and 71402:28 FH. Compared to the AS MD-80, their average flight hours per flight cycle ratio is significantly smaller.
 
RB211trent
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:35 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:54 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
CarbonFibre wrote:
I wonder if ZS-GAL still has the Braniff livery underneath?


This is not how plane painting works, the old paint gets removed before the new paint is applied.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3x53tIBBoJA

I thought I remember reading on here that an airline did find an old livery from a previous operator when they stripped a frame to repaint.
Anyone remembers?

The old paint is not necessarily stripped, I’ve seen aircraft rubbed down and sprayed over.
 
TW870
Posts: 1244
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:22 am

longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!


Great post, and I was just thinking about this. I was in a Boy Scouts group that toured NW's engine shop at MSP in 1989 just as the first CFM56-5s were coming in for repair for the 320 fleet. The tour guides were talking about how the A320 was not built to last like the 727. Some A320s have already served longer than any 727 at NW. Right around that time I got to ride on NW's 727-51 N461US which lasted a long time, and was in service I believe from 1964 to 1991 or 1992, which at the time seemed like a very long time. DL is operating A320s that have already served longer than that.
 
airnorth
Posts: 462
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:00 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!


Interesting how at the old Crown Corp. they were modern. I remember how in a rather short matter of time the 727s were retired.

C-FDQQ is still going strong.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-fdqq



Along with C-GPWG, CP's first A320.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gpwg


Cool, we just flew on C-FDQQ the other day YQR - YYZ and I was surprised at how old she was, then to see an old pic here on anet, pretty cool.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 561
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:01 am

1989worstyear wrote:

These older '88/89 birds are still part of the same generation and variant as a brand new CEO off the line today. I agree with SteelChair, we will see these CEO's going well into their 30's after all of the newer 767's and 757's from the 2000's have become beer cans.

Airbus hasn't changed the design in 30 years because they don't have to - technology has not changed in 30 years.


77% of 757s built in 1989 (30 years old) are still in service
22% of A320s built in 1989 (30 years old) are still in service

The facts show that 757s last longer in service than A320s
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:24 am

IWMBH wrote:
CarbonFibre wrote:
I wonder if ZS-GAL still has the Braniff livery underneath?


This is not how plane painting works, the old paint gets removed before the new paint is applied.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3x53tIBBoJA

PennPal wrote:
Wow...30 years in service?? What a remarkable airplane, and what a workhorse!! I'm wondering...other than a DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, 707,727,737,747, 757, 767, BAe146, F100 and countless Russian models ...has there ever been an airliner besides the A320 that has reached that unthinkable age??


They all made the 30 year mark, but none of the models that did are still being built as passenger aircraft today.


It's because the technology has not changed in 30 years.

It's like the A320 entered service and the OEM's just threw their hands up and said "nope - we can't get any better than this".

The A320 is also after just turning 30, I relate way more to 16 year olds I meet than someone born in 1985.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1854
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:00 am

TW870 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!


Great post, and I was just thinking about this. I was in a Boy Scouts group that toured NW's engine shop at MSP in 1989 just as the first CFM56-5s were coming in for repair for the 320 fleet. The tour guides were talking about how the A320 was not built to last like the 727. Some A320s have already served longer than any 727 at NW. Right around that time I got to ride on NW's 727-51 N461US which lasted a long time, and was in service I believe from 1964 to 1991 or 1992, which at the time seemed like a very long time. DL is operating A320s that have already served longer than that.

That was the old "American supremacy" syndrome: no one can even remotely come close to what Americans do.
Airbus sure showed McDonnell-Douglas and Boeing that wasn't true.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1854
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:03 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

These older '88/89 birds are still part of the same generation and variant as a brand new CEO off the line today. I agree with SteelChair, we will see these CEO's going well into their 30's after all of the newer 767's and 757's from the 2000's have become beer cans.

Airbus hasn't changed the design in 30 years because they don't have to - technology has not changed in 30 years.


77% of 757s built in 1989 (30 years old) are still in service
22% of A320s built in 1989 (30 years old) are still in service

The facts show that 757s last longer in service than A320s

To be fair, in 1989, the 757 was in service for 6 years already; in 1989, the A320 was in service for a year or so.
In 1989, the 757 was a more mature aircraft than the A320 was.

Also, the mission profile of the A320 in its early years was shorter hops than the 757. So, more cycles.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5491
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:56 am

AFAIK early A320s were designed for less cycles. Early models are harder to keep airworthy than newer ones will be.

This would explain the difference in survival rates for these early models vs the 757, along with the fact that 757 tend to fly less cycles and have found a niche with US majors who are happy to fly them to the bitter end as there's little out there that can replace them until the A321XLR comes along and their business model seems to favor maximum amortization of flying assets.

I'm pretty sure newer A32X models would happily operate past the 30 years mark, except the way airplanes are operated and financed has changed so much that depreciation is much quicker nowadays. Airplanes, especially short-haul narrowbodies, retire younger.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
CarbonFibre
Posts: 728
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:02 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:58 am

RB211trent wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

This is not how plane painting works, the old paint gets removed before the new paint is applied.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3x53tIBBoJA

I thought I remember reading on here that an airline did find an old livery from a previous operator when they stripped a frame to repaint.
Anyone remembers?

The old paint is not necessarily stripped, I’ve seen aircraft rubbed down and sprayed over.


Image

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos