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lightsaber
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:44 am

tnair1974 wrote:

Since new build A320s are already in effect built to ESG 1 hours/cycles, I wonder if new builds today will able to be upgraded to ESG II standards years from now (as pointed out earlier, today's oldest A320s have been unable to be upgraded to ESG II).

The A320 life is impressive, but what ESG II? Testing was started, issues were found, and no further information.

There are rumors the A320 could serve longer, but how many more cycles and how many more hours? All we know is the original goal of 90,000 FC and 180,000 FH was more than the airframe could take. I've heard rumors the issue was cycles (which wear gear, wing/body join, pressure bulkheads, and numerous attachment points near the ends of the aircraft not hours (wears wing spar, wing control surfaces, horizontal stabilizer, sometimes vertical stabilizer).

I think Airbus will one day extend the A320 life, but the original ESG II has been sidelined.

That said, the fact the earliest retirements, excluding a few scrapped early, is at 26 years speaks well for the type. Anything beyond 20 years doesn't matter at initial purchase (future value is too low to include in the purchase price decision).

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sciing
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:32 pm

D-AIPC is now also out of service.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-aipc
28 Oct 2019 Munich (MUC) Castellon (CDT) LH9922 1:57 11:30 11:53 13:45 Landed 13:51


https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb.main?LC=nav4
Airbus A320 -211 71 D-AIPC Lufthansa ferried 28oct19 MUC-CDT, for part-out & scrap ex F-WWIG
 
tnair1974
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:08 am

PacoMartin wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
It may not be surprising if DL's current oldest A320s retire due to rising maintenance costs rather than cycles/hours. And even that could still be years from now.

I was under the impression that aircraft that were otherwise performing efficiently were typically retired when they were scheduled for a D check, or a "heavy maintenance visit" (HMV) and the cost of the HMV check was higher than the residual value of the aircraft. I thought that was typically the third D check. The aircraft was usually sold in the third world.

I'm no expert, but this may be largely true. However, seems I recall at least some DL MD-88s have been retired even though they could have received at least one more C-check. The MD-88 that was struck by the tug at ATL earlier this year was declared a WO and later scrapped at Atlanta (it was suppose to be one of the last 88s to retire and may have already had ADS-B installed). A second MD-88s that was about to be retired was instead given a C-check to take the place of the other 88.

Is there a suttle difference between a D-check and a HMV? Do different aircraft have different time gaps between HMVs?


I thought that maximum cycles or flight hours were almost never reached.

Of course, the likes of DC-8s and 707s in decades past had relatively short careers (even if the UPS DC-8s were roughly 40 years old when finally retired).

Even today, planes seem to not come overly close to running out of cycles/hours. True, the AF A320-100s cycled out relatively quickly, or at least came close. The -100s only went to 40K cycles and unlike the -200s could not receive the life extension (EFG).

LH has now retired three of their more elderly A320-200s, including two just in the last week or so. The first plane had just shy of 57K cycles and hypothetically could have received one more heavy check and flown the relatively short time to the EFG established limit of 60K cycles. But as Lightsaber touched on earlier, the economics of such a move would probably not be justified. AF and LH running out of cycles (but not hours) is interesting but also indicative of the many shorter routes their A320s flew. This contrasts with DL/NW; had Delta's oldest A320s not received EFG years ago, they would have run out of hours (but not cycles).

Not picking on the A320. It's actually one of my favorite airliners. But until the life extensions arrived, the A320 trailed the 737s and especially the MD-80s in cycles/hours by a good margin.
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:26 am

lightsaber wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:

Since new build A320s are already in effect built to ESG 1 hours/cycles, I wonder if new builds today will able to be upgraded to ESG II standards years from now (as pointed out earlier, today's oldest A320s have been unable to be upgraded to ESG II).

The A320 life is impressive, but what ESG II? Testing was started, issues were found, and no further information.

There are rumors the A320 could serve longer, but how many more cycles and how many more hours? All we know is the original goal of 90,000 FC and 180,000 FH was more than the airframe could take. I've heard rumors the issue was cycles (which wear gear, wing/body join, pressure bulkheads, and numerous attachment points near the ends of the aircraft not hours (wears wing spar, wing control surfaces, horizontal stabilizer, sometimes vertical stabilizer).

I think Airbus will one day extend the A320 life, but the original ESG II has been sidelined.

That said, the fact the earliest retirements, excluding a few scrapped early, is at 26 years speaks well for the type. Anything beyond 20 years doesn't matter at initial purchase (future value is too low to include in the purchase price decision).

Lightsaber

Thanks for clearing up my somewhat clumsy insight on the A320 life extension.

Your further explanations on the different stresses put on pressurized aircraft by cycles vs hours are very interesting and enlightening. I'm somewhat familiar with heavy maintenance for the likes of small Cessnas and Pipers (including engine overhauls/TBOs). Some of my older relatives are/were private pilots and I have assisted in financial issues regarding their small unpressurized aircraft. But my knowledge of maintenance for pressurized planes (even of pressurized versions of smaller General Aviation aircraft like the Beechcraft Baron and the single engine Cessna 210, much less a 757) have left much be desired.
 
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:55 am

tnair1974 wrote:
Even today, planes seem to not come overly close to running out of cycles/hours.


This is true in most cases but there are occasional exceptions, such as Delta 757s that got within a HMV of the 50,000 cycle limit, and JAL short-range 777s that approached the cycle limit as well. We've also seen a few 747s, 767s, and A330s start to approach the hours limit for those types (which is more common with widebodies than approaching cycle limits).
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:45 am

Over the last decade or so, A320's has been the a/c I'm most likely to fly. Just returned from another florida trip (cruise) and typically found a good deal on jet blue. Although I've flown the 320 on other carriers even a transcon on virgin American. I realise that I'm likely getting on a plane that might be 20 years old, but it doesn't bother me a bit. It's not my favorite plane, but I never mind flying on one.
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:24 pm

Is there any ESG planned for the A330? The LOV for flight hours is 100,000, which is pretty low for a widebody. Delta's first A330s, delivered in 2003, are already close to 75,000 hours. The've flown 767s to nearly 140,000 hours. Seems like they, at least, could benefit from a life extension.
 
sf260
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:46 am

seabosdca wrote:
Is there any ESG planned for the A330?

It's already available, some operators have already done it. For early A330's, there is an ISG which raises the limit to 33000FC/100000FH, then an ESG to 40000FC/130000FH (126000FH for -200). Currently available.
For later built A330's, DSG is immedately at 33000FC/100000FH, no ISG. No aircraft is even close to this limit and that's why Arbus hasn't developed it yet.
 
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:39 am

longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!



Amazing...at a legacy carrier too...it is still used 'normally' or on a more forgiving kind of 'lite' flight schedule?...


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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:32 am

Great milestone, congrats to the operators and the manufacturer! And the countless mechanics...

I was very surprised to learn about LH's old birds. Kinda amazing. But almost a question mark -- for such a well-financed and run airline, wouldn't replacing with newer builds have provided some savings (like fuel with better engines)? Or they already have relative recent engines (of CEO variant, obviously)?

Finally, and this is what I confess I mostly think when I see the MD-90 or old 320/737 threads... how dirty they must be. What about the garbage and dirt that gathers on every crack in the floor, between panels and galley structures, in the cockpit panels... I realise of course that the planes are probably well cleaned at some point and there's heavy maintenance. But does the cabin flooring cover come off for instance in a D-check? Do instrument panels get emptied of instruments and cabling and vacuumed?
 
a2b7
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:36 pm

Faro wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!



Amazing...at a legacy carrier too...it is still used 'normally' or on a more forgiving kind of 'lite' flight schedule?...


Faro

You might want to have a look at #71 in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412813&start=50#p21420461) and the corresponding discussion starting around #63 (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412813&start=50#p21420315)

AirlineCritic wrote:
Great milestone, congrats to the operators and the manufacturer! And the countless mechanics...

I was very surprised to learn about LH's old birds. Kinda amazing. But almost a question mark -- for such a well-financed and run airline, wouldn't replacing with newer builds have provided some savings (like fuel with better engines)? Or they already have relative recent engines (of CEO variant, obviously)?

Finally, and this is what I confess I mostly think when I see the MD-90 or old 320/737 threads... how dirty they must be. What about the garbage and dirt that gathers on every crack in the floor, between panels and galley structures, in the cockpit panels... I realise of course that the planes are probably well cleaned at some point and there's heavy maintenance. But does the cabin flooring cover come off for instance in a D-check? Do instrument panels get emptied of instruments and cabling and vacuumed?

You might want to have a look at the discussion starting at #56 (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1412813&start=50#p21011779).
I think replacing the old LH A320s by A320neos takes more time than LH expected - due to delivery delays and P&W engine issues - so LH ended up ordering more end-of-the line A320ceos.
These A320s reaching 30 years are powered by older engine versions, the CFM56-5A (Jordan Aviation, Lufthansa, Air Canada) and the V2500-A1 (Global Aviation).
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:44 am

blacksoviet wrote:
I once read that the A320 is what forced Boeing to develop the 73G and the 738. United was not impressed with the 734 and refused to order it.

I think that anecdote is certainly true. The only variants not ordered by United were the 737-100, 737-400, and 737-600

The 734 was first delivered 24 weeks after the first A320 delivered on 28 March 1988 and still had 10 tonnes less MTOW.
The 738 with the same MTOW as the A320 was first delivered a decade later on 22. Apr. 1998 after 76 321s were delivered 1994-1997.

======================================================
Background
======================================================
731 - 50.0 tonne MTOW
732 - 58.1 tonne MTOW
..
733 - 62.8 tonne MTOW - first delivery 3 yrs, 4 months before A320 initial delivery
320 - 78.0 tonne MTOW first model to be delivered in 28 March 1988
734 - 68.0 tonne MTOW - first delivery 24 weeks after A320 initial delivery
735 - 60.6 tonne MTOW
..
736 - 65.5 tonne MTOW
73G - 70.1 tonne MTOW
738 - 79.0 tonne MTOW

318 - 68.0 tonne MTOW
319 - 75.5 tonne MTOW
321-100 - 83.0 tonne MTOW
321-200 - 93.5 tonne MTOW

752 - 115.7 tonne MTOW
753 - 123.8 tonne MTOW
========================

A310 312 Airbus A310-200
A310 313 Airbus A310-300
A318 318 Airbus A318
A318 32C Airbus A318 (sharklets)
A319 319 Airbus A319
A319 32D Airbus A319 (sharklets)
A320 320 Airbus A320
A320 32A Airbus A320 (sharklets)
A321 321 Airbus A321
A321 32B Airbus A321 (sharklets)

B732 732 Boeing 737-200
B733 733 Boeing 737-300
B734 734 Boeing 737-400
B735 735 Boeing 737-500
B736 736 Boeing 737-600
B737 73G Boeing 737-700
B738 738 Boeing 737-800
B739 739 Boeing 737-900
 
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:24 am

PacoMartin wrote:
I was under the impression that aircraft that were otherwise performing efficiently were typically retired when they were scheduled for a D check, or a "heavy maintenance visit" (HMV) and the cost of the HMV check was higher than the residual value of the aircraft. I thought that was typically the third D check. The aircraft was usually sold in the third world.


None of the FBW Airbus aircraft have D checks, they were from outset designed to the newer MSG goals, they have smaller A/B/C checks over a 6 year cycle and designed to be damage tolerant, that is different to earlier aircraft.

An aircraft that is 30 years old has gone through 5 cycles.
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:37 pm

sergegva wrote:
sergegva wrote:

The list of A320 to reach 30 years old is now as follows:

1. MSN 029, JY-JAC (Jordan Aviation, flying for Cubana) - 30.7 y.o. - still flying, 2-3 cycles/day (irregular)
2. MSN 053, ZS-GAR (Correndon), 30.4 y.o. - still flying, around 5 cycles/day
3. MSN 054, ZS-GAW (Correndon), 30.3 y.o - still flying, 4-5 cycles/day
4. MSN 064, ZS-GAL (Correndon), 30.2 y.o - still flying, around 4 cycles/day
5. MSN 070 - D-AIPB (Lufthansa), 30.1 y.o - still flying, around 6 cycles/day
6. MSN 071 - D-AIPC (Lufthansa), 30.0 y.o - still flying, around 6 cycles/day


7. MSN 076 - ZS-GAS (Correndon #4). Base: Antalya
8. MSN 078 - D-AIPE (Lufthansa #3). Base: Munich
9. MSN 081 - ZS-GAZ (Correndon #5). Base: Antalya
10. MSN 083 - D-AIPF (Lufthansa #4). Base: Munich
11. MSN 086 - D-AIPH (Lufthansa #5). Base: Munich - First flight was 30 years and 1 day ago

Air Canada soon!

In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)
 
sciing
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:31 am

MSN 78, D-AIPE is on its last flight.
https://fr24.com/DLH9924/23707be9

Skyliner
Airbus A320 -211 78 D-AIPE Lufthansa ferried 07jan20 MUC-LETL, for part-out &scrap ex F-WWIU
 
787SIN
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:37 am

Another thing that may hamper early frames longevity is if they still have early CFMI -5A or IAE A1 engines on them.

Parts for these may be running low globally and any aircraft now being scrapped that have life on internal engine parts may even be going up in value to support what remains in service.
 
ei146
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:00 am

sciing wrote:
MSN 78, D-AIPE is on its last flight.
https://fr24.com/DLH9924/23707be9


Amazing to see how she was heavily used until the very last day.
 
a2b7
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:37 pm

a2b7 wrote:
sergegva wrote:
sergegva wrote:

The list of A320 to reach 30 years old is now as follows:

1. MSN 029, JY-JAC (Jordan Aviation, flying for Cubana) - 30.7 y.o. - still flying, 2-3 cycles/day (irregular)
2. MSN 053, ZS-GAR (Correndon), 30.4 y.o. - still flying, around 5 cycles/day
3. MSN 054, ZS-GAW (Correndon), 30.3 y.o - still flying, 4-5 cycles/day
4. MSN 064, ZS-GAL (Correndon), 30.2 y.o - still flying, around 4 cycles/day
5. MSN 070 - D-AIPB (Lufthansa), 30.1 y.o - still flying, around 6 cycles/day
6. MSN 071 - D-AIPC (Lufthansa), 30.0 y.o - still flying, around 6 cycles/day


7. MSN 076 - ZS-GAS (Correndon #4). Base: Antalya
8. MSN 078 - D-AIPE (Lufthansa #3). Base: Munich
9. MSN 081 - ZS-GAZ (Correndon #5). Base: Antalya
10. MSN 083 - D-AIPF (Lufthansa #4). Base: Munich
11. MSN 086 - D-AIPH (Lufthansa #5). Base: Munich - First flight was 30 years and 1 day ago

Air Canada soon!

In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)

There has been another 30th birthday:
16. MSN 104 D-AIPM (Lufthansa #8)
I wonder if the next 30th birthday will take place later due to the Corona virus.
 
IWMBH
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:53 pm

a2b7 wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
sergegva wrote:

7. MSN 076 - ZS-GAS (Correndon #4). Base: Antalya
8. MSN 078 - D-AIPE (Lufthansa #3). Base: Munich
9. MSN 081 - ZS-GAZ (Correndon #5). Base: Antalya
10. MSN 083 - D-AIPF (Lufthansa #4). Base: Munich
11. MSN 086 - D-AIPH (Lufthansa #5). Base: Munich - First flight was 30 years and 1 day ago

Air Canada soon!

In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)

There has been another 30th birthday:
16. MSN 104 D-AIPM (Lufthansa #8)
I wonder if the next 30th birthday will take place later due to the Corona virus.


I don't think so because a lot of AC birds are up next. And I don't see AC retire A320's as long as their replacement (the MAX) is still grounded.
But, with the present Corona crises this of course can change.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:08 pm

Those EX Anett 320's had so so much room, not like modern day A320/neos!
 
WayexTDI
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:11 pm

BrianWilkes wrote:
Those EX Anett 320's had so so much room, not like modern day A320/neos!

You know that the seating configuration has nothing to do with the fact the aircraft is an older A320 or a brand-new A320neo, right? Airlines configure this or that fleet based on the intended use; so, some older frames doing short hops would most likely be pack as much as possible while newer more efficient frames could be configured with less seats (to make place for premium seating and longer flights, see AA A321s transcontinental).
 
a2b7
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:34 pm

IWMBH wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)

There has been another 30th birthday:
16. MSN 104 D-AIPM (Lufthansa #8)
I wonder if the next 30th birthday will take place later due to the Corona virus.


I don't think so because a lot of AC birds are up next. And I don't see AC retire A320's as long as their replacement (the MAX) is still grounded.
But, with the present Corona crises this of course can change.

This year, there were 5 AC A320s that could become 30 years old: C-FDSN, C-FDST, C-FDSU, C-FFWI and C-FFWJ. But C-FFWJ already flew to MZJ on 6th April, see https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFFWJ , together with their oldest A320 C-FDQQ https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFDQQ and with C-FPWE https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CFPWE . skyliner-aviation.de also said that they went there for part out and scrap, but this has disappeared in the meantime.
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:50 am

Delta's oldest A320 (N309US) turns the Big 3-Zero on August 1st. Another turning 30 this year is N312US on December 12th.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e96yqe
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e246g3
 
a2b7
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Wed May 27, 2020 8:49 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
Delta's oldest A320 (N309US) turns the Big 3-Zero on August 1st. Another turning 30 this year is N312US on December 12th.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e96yqe
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e246g3

Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.

There's an update regarding the old Lufthansa A320s from skyliner-aviation.de:
D-AIPF, D-AIPH, D-AIPM, D-AIPY ferried 20may20 to LETL
D-AIPT, D-AIQA, D-AIQH ferried 27may20 to LETL for onward storage

I doubt that they will return to service, except for maybe the youngest (D-AIQH), as Lufthansa has announced that it will retire 11 A320s, see https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... a5d5b2c0d3
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Thu May 28, 2020 2:38 am

a2b7 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Delta's oldest A320 (N309US) turns the Big 3-Zero on August 1st. Another turning 30 this year is N312US on December 12th.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e96yqe
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e246g3

Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.

There's an update regarding the old Lufthansa A320s from skyliner-aviation.de:
D-AIPF, D-AIPH, D-AIPM, D-AIPY ferried 20may20 to LETL
D-AIPT, D-AIQA, D-AIQH ferried 27may20 to LETL for onward storage

I doubt that they will return to service, except for maybe the youngest (D-AIQH), as Lufthansa has announced that it will retire 11 A320s, see https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... a5d5b2c0d3


We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?
 
strfyr51
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Thu May 28, 2020 2:54 am

WayexTDI wrote:
So much for the a.net reputation that Airbus aircraft are throw-away POS's...

No airplane is a throw away. Airbus did not really intend for the A320 to be around 30 years as they thought airlines would continually seek to replace them with Newer models, but? they sold a lot of them but not very many cycled out older models for newer except America West in the USA. The airplanes they replaced them with?
Are flying pretty hard for American, via USAir. and they will reach 30 years in the near future. Some of United's are at or near the 30 year mark as well. as some of Delta's via Northwest.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:39 am

delete
Winter is coming.
 
milhaus
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:56 am

No airplanes except chinese are throw away. But I do not know what is exact problem with those MA60 and others, which have short lives with all airlines outside China...
 
rjmf22
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 am

Does anybody know the oldest US based A320? I know UA has some relatively old ones, maybe some ex NWA Delta birds as well.
United Airlines
 
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Polot
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:21 am

rjmf22 wrote:
Does anybody know the oldest US based A320? I know UA has some relatively old ones, maybe some ex NWA Delta birds as well.

N309US, a DL A320 first delivered to NW in October 1990. Currently parked due to the corona virus with all of the other DL A320s.

UA’s oldest A320 is from late 1993. Almost half of DL’s A320 fleet is older than that.
 
brilondon
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:45 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!


I'm guessing AC's DC-9-32s went for about 30 years as well? I remember flying one YVR-SFO late spring of 1996.


I remember flying on AC on their flight from Halifax to Victoria B.C. making stops in Fredricton, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, London, Windsor, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Vancouver and finally Victoria. My travel agent thought I was crazy. After landing in Winnipeg, I agreed with her.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm

Was the Jordan Av airframe planned to be retired? As the demand is dropping, This is the golden chance not only for Jordan Av but also for DL, UA, LH, AC to retire their oldest frames.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
airnorth
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:07 pm

brilondon wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
I am old enough to remember when A320s started replacing 727-200s. The feeling among "experts" (like us) was that this "disposable French airplane would never last as long as a Boeing".

Air Canada's first A320 will hit 30 years old at the end of this year ... the 727-200s it replaced lasted roughly half that at Air Canada!


I'm guessing AC's DC-9-32s went for about 30 years as well? I remember flying one YVR-SFO late spring of 1996.


I remember flying on AC on their flight from Halifax to Victoria B.C. making stops in Fredricton, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, London, Windsor, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Vancouver and finally Victoria. My travel agent thought I was crazy. After landing in Winnipeg, I agreed with her.


Crazy??? I would book that right now if possible, lol.
 
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longhauler
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:58 pm

Hell yeah.

Before it was flown by a DC-9, it was a Viscount route. But I don’t think it went any further west than the prairies before changing flight numbers. Who here wouldn’t want to cross the country in a Viscount? I flew on the YUL-YOW-YXU-YQG-YWG portion of the flight, just for fun. (And came back on a Vanguard, YWG-YQT-YAM-YYZ).
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
So much for the a.net reputation that Airbus aircraft are throw-away POS's...

No airplane is a throw away. Airbus did not really intend for the A320 to be around 30 years as they thought airlines would continually seek to replace them with Newer models, but? they sold a lot of them but not very many cycled out older models for newer except America West in the USA. The airplanes they replaced them with?
Are flying pretty hard for American, via USAir. and they will reach 30 years in the near future. Some of United's are at or near the 30 year mark as well. as some of Delta's via Northwest.

Well, there were some people on here (and elsewhere in the industry) who kept saying that Airbus aircraft were just throw-away POSs; this proves them wrong.
 
brilondon
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:21 pm

airnorth wrote:
brilondon wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:

I'm guessing AC's DC-9-32s went for about 30 years as well? I remember flying one YVR-SFO late spring of 1996.


I remember flying on AC on their flight from Halifax to Victoria B.C. making stops in Fredricton, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, London, Windsor, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Vancouver and finally Victoria. My travel agent thought I was crazy. After landing in Winnipeg, I agreed with her.


Crazy??? I would book that right now if possible, lol.


You are a glutton for punishment. After 4 stops, I was done. I use to fly 2 million miles a year. I thought the same thing as you. This would be cool. After four cups of airplane coffee, two meals of questionable meat like sandwiches. Up and down. I was done by Winnipeg.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
tnair1974
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:00 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Delta's oldest A320 (N309US) turns the Big 3-Zero on August 1st. Another turning 30 this year is N312US on December 12th.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e96yqe
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e246g3

Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.
[snip]


We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?

Anybody know if its mainly the oldest DL A320s being stored at SBD and VCV (where many but not all planes at SBD/VCV get broken up) while the newer DL A320s are parked at places that don't part out planes? Or did the remaining "green time" a particular DL A320 had render where it got stored....regardless of the plane's age?
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:55 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.
[snip]


We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?

Anybody know if its mainly the oldest DL A320s being stored at SBD and VCV (where many but not all planes at SBD/VCV get broken up) while the newer DL A320s are parked at places that don't part out planes? Or did the remaining "green time" a particular DL A320 had render where it got stored....regardless of the plane's age?


There are 34 (by my count) A320's 27 years, or older. Of that group, 11 are at SBD (a long-term storage site), 4 are probably at DL's TechOps (ex-NW) facility at MSP and the other 19 are divided between MCI & BHM in short/medium-term storage. I imagine the ones still stored at MCI will have to be either put back into service soon, or moved to a long-term storage facility like SBD or MZJ. DL has had a long-standing arrangement at BHM for storing surplus planes, so I don't think the need for relocation of the A320's there will be too pressing.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines
 
tnair1974
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:54 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
tnair1974 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?

Anybody know if its mainly the oldest DL A320s being stored at SBD and VCV (where many but not all planes at SBD/VCV get broken up) while the newer DL A320s are parked at places that don't part out planes? Or did the remaining "green time" a particular DL A320 had render where it got stored....regardless of the plane's age?


There are 34 (by my count) A320's 27 years, or older. Of that group, 11 are at SBD (a long-term storage site), 4 are probably at DL's TechOps (ex-NW) facility at MSP and the other 19 are divided between MCI & BHM in short/medium-term storage. I imagine the ones still stored at MCI will have to be either put back into service soon, or moved to a long-term storage facility like SBD or MZJ. DL has had a long-standing arrangement at BHM for storing surplus planes, so I don't think the need for relocation of the A320's there will be too pressing.

https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Delta-Air-Lines

Nice info, thanks. I also can't see the planes at MCI (and BHM for that matter) staying too long; high humidity and the threat of damaging storms are of course not ideal storage conditions.

To my knowledge, DL has said nothing official as to what they will do with their A320s. Who knows what COVID-19 will/won't do in the months/years ahead until a vaccine is ready. But as touched on in other threads, it wouldn't be too surprising if any of the oldest Delta A320s that are soon due a heavy check may end up being retired/scrapped instead. This may be especially true for the remaining (older) DL A320s that still use the early vintage -5A1 version of the CFM56 engine (more recent DL A320s are powered by the -5A3 variant).

Just a guess, but any of the newer A320s that will soon time out on heavy check hours could simply stay parked, maybe give up a few parts, but not retired right away.
 
a2b7
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:40 am

A few more Lufthansa A320 have flown to LETL for retirement in the meantime (see http://scrappedairliners.blogspot.com/ )
D-AIPL and D-AIPR flew there on 03 Jun, and D-AIPP, D-AIPS and D-AIPZ on 05 Jun
That means, there are only D-AIQD and D-AIQF remaining from the oldest batch.
 
a2b7
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:50 pm

a2b7 wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
sergegva wrote:

7. MSN 076 - ZS-GAS (Correndon #4). Base: Antalya
8. MSN 078 - D-AIPE (Lufthansa #3). Base: Munich
9. MSN 081 - ZS-GAZ (Correndon #5). Base: Antalya
10. MSN 083 - D-AIPF (Lufthansa #4). Base: Munich
11. MSN 086 - D-AIPH (Lufthansa #5). Base: Munich - First flight was 30 years and 1 day ago

Air Canada soon!

In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)

There has been another 30th birthday:
16. MSN 104 D-AIPM (Lufthansa #8)
I wonder if the next 30th birthday will take place later due to the Corona virus.


FLALEFTY wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Delta's oldest A320 (N309US) turns the Big 3-Zero on August 1st. Another turning 30 this year is N312US on December 12th.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e96yqe
https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... nes/e246g3

Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.

There's an update regarding the old Lufthansa A320s from skyliner-aviation.de:
D-AIPF, D-AIPH, D-AIPM, D-AIPY ferried 20may20 to LETL
D-AIPT, D-AIQA, D-AIQH ferried 27may20 to LETL for onward storage

I doubt that they will return to service, except for maybe the youngest (D-AIQH), as Lufthansa has announced that it will retire 11 A320s, see https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... a5d5b2c0d3


We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?

17. MSN 118 N309US (Delta #1)
left SBD on 22 Jul (see the SoCal Boneyard Storage and Activity Thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1445691&start=500#p22335575)
and celebrated its 30th birthday yesterday.
According to https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n309us it operated DL435 yesterday.
 
tnair1974
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:19 pm

Good to see N309US escape the scrappers at least one more time.

Delta recently announced that a portion of their A320s (among other aircraft types) have been/will be retired this year. N326US, a 1992 bird that was initially stored at MCI as the pandemic spread, was ferried MSP-SBD a couple weeks ago in what may have been its final flight.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N326US

Otherwise, so far to my knowledge all DL A320s that have left storage have returned to service including a mix of old (including N309US) and newer models.

IIRC, Air Canada will speed up retirement of some of their A320s as well...anybody have more details?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:24 pm

a2b7 wrote:
A few more Lufthansa A320 have flown to LETL for retirement in the meantime (see http://scrappedairliners.blogspot.com/ )
D-AIPL and D-AIPR flew there on 03 Jun, and D-AIPP, D-AIPS and D-AIPZ on 05 Jun
That means, there are only D-AIQD and D-AIQF remaining from the oldest batch.

For the two remaining, I imagine their fate is met when they need an expensive part.

to all:
Any new one set a record for hours or cycles?

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:33 pm

a2b7 wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
In the meantime a few more have reached 30 years, including the first for Air Canada:
12. MSN 067 ZS-GAO (Global Aviation #6) - has been operating for Mango recently, see also https://avherald.com/h?article=4cf1fd0b
13. MSN 059 C-FDQQ (Air Canada #1)
14. MSN 093 D-AIPK (Lufthansa #6) - flew to HAM on 9 Dec and should be used as a technical trainer, see https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/historic
15. MSN 094 D-AIPL (Lufthansa #7)

There has been another 30th birthday:
16. MSN 104 D-AIPM (Lufthansa #8)
I wonder if the next 30th birthday will take place later due to the Corona virus.


FLALEFTY wrote:
a2b7 wrote:
Yes that's true. Let's see whether they will break the 30-year in service mark: N309US is currently stored in SBD and N312US in MCI according to planespotters.net.

There's an update regarding the old Lufthansa A320s from skyliner-aviation.de:
D-AIPF, D-AIPH, D-AIPM, D-AIPY ferried 20may20 to LETL
D-AIPT, D-AIQA, D-AIQH ferried 27may20 to LETL for onward storage

I doubt that they will return to service, except for maybe the youngest (D-AIQH), as Lufthansa has announced that it will retire 11 A320s, see https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... a5d5b2c0d3


We might need to keep a watch to see if Delta decides to return their A320 fleet back to service. Currently all 62 are parked at various locales. It is the only aircraft type that they fully parked during the COVID-19 crisis. There are 31 parked at long-term storage locations (30 at SBD and 1 at VCV) and I wonder how many of these are coming due for heavy checks?

17. MSN 118 N309US (Delta #1)
left SBD on 22 Jul (see the SoCal Boneyard Storage and Activity Thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1445691&start=500#p22335575)
and celebrated its 30th birthday yesterday.
According to https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n309us it operated DL435 yesterday.


Indeed! I noticed that 30-year-old A320 coming back on the line, too. How much longer it will fly is anybody's guess, but it is good to see it back in the air for the time being.

Delta issued this statement as part of their June 2020 Quarterly Financial Results:

https://ir.delta.com/news/news-details/ ... fault.aspx

It seems that a portion of the A320 fleet will be officially retired soon, with number being bandied about being 10 frames (for now). I imagine those retired will be A320's nearing, or due for HVM checks. This does not necessairly track with the aircraft's age. Overall, it appears some of the A320 fleet will soldier on until at least 2022-23, maybe a bit longer.
 
miegapele
Posts: 58
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:02 pm

Is there anything else over 30 years currently flying pax scheduled ops? I know Jet2 has some old 757, and all these 727 in Canada. Is there anything else?
 
JakTrax
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:31 pm

You mean 732s in Canada surely? As far as I know the last Canadian 727s (Cargojet) were retired at least a year ago.

Karl
 
smartplane
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:52 pm

In a COVID / post-COVID World, OEM's will re-price aircraft life to speed up retirements / sell new aircraft.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:55 pm

smartplane wrote:
In a COVID / post-COVID World, OEM's will re-price aircraft life to speed up retirements / sell new aircraft.

Aircraft life is part of service contracts and limit if Validity. Those cannot be modified.

Newer aircraft have dropped in price about 10%, that is enough to push down used aircraft on the older end of the spectrum 25% or more. See the aircraft lease value thread (prior had more on distribution on price drops): viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1440991

This means, in the recovery, in the fixed versus variable costs, newer aircraft will be more attractive due to reduced purchase price.

Allegiant has made it clear that they will scrap A319s and the oldest A320s and instead buy newer (but not factory new) A320CEOs: newer sit 6 more seats, critical for the ancillary revenue model, lower fuel burn, better dispatch reliability (avionics with predictive maintenance) and less maintenance in general (newer). Not one quote, a running discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438059

I believe that older A320 will be run to next heavy maintenance visit (Heavy C) and then likely become parts. Avionics and engine version will play a role, but so will airline cash flow and passenger demand.

With so many newer CEO being returned by Indigo, AirAsia, and GoJet alone, we will see a market out of balance for at least 3 years.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
a2b7
Posts: 47
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:10 pm

tnair1974 wrote:
Good to see N309US escape the scrappers at least one more time.

Delta recently announced that a portion of their A320s (among other aircraft types) have been/will be retired this year. N326US, a 1992 bird that was initially stored at MCI as the pandemic spread, was ferried MSP-SBD a couple weeks ago in what may have been its final flight.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N326US

Otherwise, so far to my knowledge all DL A320s that have left storage have returned to service including a mix of old (including N309US) and newer models.

IIRC, Air Canada will speed up retirement of some of their A320s as well...anybody have more details?

According to the Air Canada Q2 2020 Results MD&A, there is no fleet plan for this year yet due to the uncertainties caused by the pandemic and the 737 MAX grounding. Their previous fleet plan (Q4 2019 MD&A) was to go from 38 to 16 A320s by the end of 2020 and to have 30 737 MAX in service then. On planespotters.net, the A320 fleet size is currently 35 aircraft, i.e., there have only been 3 retirements out of 22 so far. Let's see how many they retire this year and how they continue to deal with the 737 MAX grounding, and the pandemic of course.

MD&As:
https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q2.pdf
https://www.aircanada.com/content/dam/a ... MDA_q4.pdf
 
a2b7
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:53 pm

Air Canada stored several A320s at MCI last week according to https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=1
C-FDSN, C-FDSU, C-FFWI, C-FTJS, C-FGYI and C-FLSS (just a few days before C-FDSN's 30th birthday on 19th Sep)
I wonder whether any of them will be scrapped at MCI.

The oldest active Air Canada A320 is currently C-GPWG, who had its first flight on 7 Feb 1991, see https://www.planespotters.net/airline/Air-Canada

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