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CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 30, 2021 11:37 am

B757236GT wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
johnconquest wrote:
First A320 I've flown on was a B6 one in 2007, N529JB, which is still flying for them and is 19.9 years old. The oldest A320 I've flown on is N320US with DL which is 30.2 years old.


While not anywhere close to oldest, I would wonder how it ranks above hours, and if anyone racks up hours on narrow body planes faster than JetBlue. Some could be racing against timing out and age 30. I do expect some JetBlue A320s to pass 100,000 hours.


I suspect some of the LCCs A320 families are racking up the hours. Easyjets are used pretty intensively but they do have more down time in the winter months. I know one thing for certain, when i started on config on the A320 family in 1994 that we would get to where in terms of the early build frames I'm not sure i would have believed you. Those early frames were effectively genesis and as such any potential issues would be found in these to the extent they certainly kept R&D busy. I retired when the oldest frames were 20 years of age and i remember being impressed how many very early frames were still giving excellent service.


LCCs in Europe, though, tend to "cycle" the planes more heavily rather then "hour" them. Eight to ten legs a day with an hour something block time would be far more probable than achieving the 3:1 ratio hours to cycles that JetBlue planes do. So hardly a chance to achieve 75k hours over there, I guess?
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 1150
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:44 pm

CRJockey wrote:
B757236GT wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

While not anywhere close to oldest, I would wonder how it ranks above hours, and if anyone racks up hours on narrow body planes faster than JetBlue. Some could be racing against timing out and age 30. I do expect some JetBlue A320s to pass 100,000 hours.


I suspect some of the LCCs A320 families are racking up the hours. Easyjets are used pretty intensively but they do have more down time in the winter months. I know one thing for certain, when i started on config on the A320 family in 1994 that we would get to where in terms of the early build frames I'm not sure i would have believed you. Those early frames were effectively genesis and as such any potential issues would be found in these to the extent they certainly kept R&D busy. I retired when the oldest frames were 20 years of age and i remember being impressed how many very early frames were still giving excellent service.


LCCs in Europe, though, tend to "cycle" the planes more heavily rather then "hour" them. Eight to ten legs a day with an hour something block time would be far more probable than achieving the 3:1 ratio hours to cycles that JetBlue planes do. So hardly a chance to achieve 75k hours over there, I guess?


North to South is still a big distance even in Europe. Even from central locations like Germany to Greece or Portugal is a 2+ hour flight. So as long as the aircraft gets rotated enough through the different legs a ratio of 2:1 should be achievable. So if an airline keeps the aircraft very long it could rack up both, hours and cycles. But chances are high, that it will cycle out before it will time out.

This fits about exactly with the actual designed life of an A320 which has a 2:1 flight hour to cycle time.

Can this early builds get the ESG II or is only the ESG I possible? I wonder if the ESG II would be economically viable (if it is possible) for JetBlue.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2412
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:22 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
B757236GT wrote:

I suspect some of the LCCs A320 families are racking up the hours. Easyjets are used pretty intensively but they do have more down time in the winter months. I know one thing for certain, when i started on config on the A320 family in 1994 that we would get to where in terms of the early build frames I'm not sure i would have believed you. Those early frames were effectively genesis and as such any potential issues would be found in these to the extent they certainly kept R&D busy. I retired when the oldest frames were 20 years of age and i remember being impressed how many very early frames were still giving excellent service.


LCCs in Europe, though, tend to "cycle" the planes more heavily rather then "hour" them. Eight to ten legs a day with an hour something block time would be far more probable than achieving the 3:1 ratio hours to cycles that JetBlue planes do. So hardly a chance to achieve 75k hours over there, I guess?


North to South is still a big distance even in Europe. Even from central locations like Germany to Greece or Portugal is a 2+ hour flight. So as long as the aircraft gets rotated enough through the different legs a ratio of 2:1 should be achievable. So if an airline keeps the aircraft very long it could rack up both, hours and cycles. But chances are high, that it will cycle out before it will time out.

This fits about exactly with the actual designed life of an A320 which has a 2:1 flight hour to cycle time.

Can this early builds get the ESG II or is only the ESG I possible? I wonder if the ESG II would be economically viable (if it is possible) for JetBlue.


Yes, but there are also a lot of short Airbus flights in Europe. To use your example, even a FRA-LIS turn (between 2:45-3:15 in the air) gets wiped below that 2:1 quickly if the same aircraft turns and operates any of the domestic turns (or AMS or BRU), all of which are well under 2 hours and many of which see the same equipment and multiple daily flights. It strikes me that LH in particular would have a hard time just because there are so many short flights. But it's probably easier for the LCCs overall with their heavier mix of sunshine flights, which is what we're really talking about, but maybe not for U2 in particular.
 
miegapele
Posts: 108
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Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:43 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
Can this early builds get the ESG II or is only the ESG I possible? I wonder if the ESG II would be economically viable (if it is possible) for JetBlue.

There is no ESG II, only ESG I, 120,000 hours, 60,000 cycles. Delta oldest plane has already 90,000 hours so it should be possible for all.
 
miegapele
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:24 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:47 pm

IADCA wrote:
It strikes me that LH in particular would have a hard time just because there are so many short flights. But it's probably easier for the LCCs overall with their heavier mix of sunshine flights, which is what we're really talking about, but maybe not for U2 in particular.

Lufthansa retired one of it's oldest a320 just short of 60000 cycles, at 30 years of age. So they can manage. I think it's documented in this thread.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:33 pm

brilondon wrote:
I use to fly 2 million miles a year.

How is that even feasible? That means 5,500 miles per day. From Amsterdam to San Francisco. Every single day of the year.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2412
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:05 pm

miegapele wrote:
IADCA wrote:
It strikes me that LH in particular would have a hard time just because there are so many short flights. But it's probably easier for the LCCs overall with their heavier mix of sunshine flights, which is what we're really talking about, but maybe not for U2 in particular.

Lufthansa retired one of it's oldest a320 just short of 60000 cycles, at 30 years of age. So they can manage. I think it's documented in this thread.


That's pretty much what I mean. That's a lot of cycles (and indeed near the original limit), but that airframe didn't have anywhere near 120,000 hours.

MartijnNL wrote:
brilondon wrote:
I use to fly 2 million miles a year.

How is that even feasible? That means 5,500 miles per day. From Amsterdam to San Francisco. Every single day of the year.


High class, high-usage drug mule? :shock: :lol: But seriously, I can't fathom why you'd do that: even a weekly round-trip from LHR to AKL, which is nearly antipodal, would get you barely 1.2 million.
 
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fanoftristars
Posts: 1700
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:57 pm

masi1157 wrote:
dennypayne wrote:
It did seem less noisy than the AA A320 (ex-US) I flew a few weeks before that, even though I was in First on AA and only had exit row on DL. I had chalked that up to IAE vs CFM, but maybe the new sidewalls were really the factor there?

The effect of the new sidewalls is very small, even so small that you would hardly hear the difference in a direct A-B comparison. No way you could ever hear a difference between 2 different aircraft on 2 different flights on 2 different days.

But there is in fact a difference between the front, mid and aft cabin, that you might have noticed. The mid cabin usually is quieter the far up front.


Gruß, masi1157


I wonder if the amount of noise has to do with the fact that the new interior has far less parts - I believe the Zodiac/Isis interior reduces the amount of parts in the sidewall from 11 to 4, so less stuff moving around and making noise?
 
masi1157
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:51 pm

fanoftristars wrote:
I wonder if the amount of noise has to do with the fact that the new interior has far less parts - I believe the Zodiac/Isis interior reduces the amount of parts in the sidewall from 11 to 4, so less stuff moving around and making noise?

No, absolutely not. Or do you think in an aircraft it sounds like rattling parts of the sidewalls? I could tell you quite a lot about it, but in this thread here it would be off-topic.


Gruß, masi1157
 
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fanoftristars
Posts: 1700
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Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:17 pm

masi1157 wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
I wonder if the amount of noise has to do with the fact that the new interior has far less parts - I believe the Zodiac/Isis interior reduces the amount of parts in the sidewall from 11 to 4, so less stuff moving around and making noise?

No, absolutely not. Or do you think in an aircraft it sounds like rattling parts of the sidewalls? I could tell you quite a lot about it, but in this thread here it would be off-topic.


Gruß, masi1157


Well certainly when the plan is taxiing or in turbulence there are a lot of rattles and squeaks. I haven't noticed that as much on DL as I did on a LUS A320 on AA.
 
a2b7
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:17 pm

Re: The first Airbus A320 to break the 30-year in service mark

Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:43 pm

debonair wrote:
European Air Charter A320 fleet is of 1991 vintage, the countdown is ticking... AFAIK, first one will be LZ-LAE, ff 11OCT91, msn 259. Fun fact, the aircraft was stored from OCT 2009 to MAR 2017, I guess one of the oldest A320 but with the lowest hours and cycles... :thumbsup:

Indeed LZ-LAE (MSN 259) became the 22nd A320 to celebrate its 30th birthday in service, and N321US (MSN 262) the 23rd on 21 Oct 2021.

I didn't expect any airline to take up one of the more than 30 years old ex-Air Canada A320s, but skyliner-aviation.de reports that MSN 210 C5-SUA (ex C-GQCA) was delivered MCI-KEF-ISL to SU Airlines. As SU Airlines is based in Gambia according to suairlines.com, I wonder whether it went to ISL for maintenance or paint.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2678
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:47 am

masi1157 wrote:
fanoftristars wrote:
I wonder if the amount of noise has to do with the fact that the new interior has far less parts - I believe the Zodiac/Isis interior reduces the amount of parts in the sidewall from 11 to 4, so less stuff moving around and making noise?

No, absolutely not. Or do you think in an aircraft it sounds like rattling parts of the sidewalls? I could tell you quite a lot about it, but in this thread here it would be off-topic.


Gruß, masi1157


Actually, quite a bit of the cabin noise can come (and indeed on some aircrafts comes) from rattling sidewall panels. This is (was) especially true for old Boeings, right down to the 707, the 727, the 732 (very noticeable behind the wing), and to some extent still present on older non-BSI 738s.
If you speak to people old enough to have worked on BAC, or Douglas aircraft they can attest that these tended to 'age better', particularly inside. I remeber flying on 30+ yo BAC1-11 and DC-9s whose paneling and interior fittings were absolutely rattle-free.
Airbus aircrafts cabin fittings have always tended to rattle less, but they somewhat squeak more; and it's something that to my knowledge is due to the more lightweight fittings.
 
masi1157
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A first Airbus A320 broke through the 30-year into service mark

Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:59 am

oldannyboy wrote:
Actually, quite a bit of the cabin noise can come (and indeed on some aircrafts comes) from rattling sidewall panels. This is (was) especially true for old Boeings...

Well, this is an A320 thread, so I was talking of them (and other Airbus types). And I am talking about cruise flight. In other phases of the flight, particularly takeoff and touchdown, there will be a lot of other things to hear. But if you hear any rattling during cruise on an A320 it might be annoying but has close to zero effect on the noise level. And adding to that we put quite some effort on stopping any rattling by design.


Gruß, masi1157

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