Homadreaming86
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Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:37 am

Ok we all might have strong opinions regarding the current situation in our politics and Ofcourse the whole shutdown and the reasons behind it. Let’s keep that for the non civ threads. As of midnight the current shutdown will be the longest in American history. How is this truly impacting air travel and civil aviation?

So far I know of a few smaller protests by air traffic controllers regarding unpaid wages and MIA closing a terminal early and moving flights over to other terminals to cope with TSA agent call outs. Long lines are reported in some airports around the country. But things seem to be humming along otherwise... so far.

Could anyone share any insights or more news of how airports, airlines and the entire industry is coping with this?

and could we have a non-political (I know it’s hard) conversation about the effects of this historic shutdown on American aviation in the short term and potentially long term if the stalemate continues?


Cheers!
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:40 pm

AA has two 737-8MAX ready for delivery or is it delivered but waiting for entry into service.. but all postponed because of the Shutdown.
 
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Berevoff
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:54 pm

TS-IOR wrote:
AA has two 737-8MAX ready for delivery or is it delivered but waiting for entry into service.. but all postponed because of the Shutdown.


Because nobody's there to process paperwork?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:57 pm

Berevoff wrote:
TS-IOR wrote:
AA has two 737-8MAX ready for delivery or is it delivered but waiting for entry into service.. but all postponed because of the Shutdown.


Because nobody's there to process paperwork?

FAA safety inspectors have been furloughed.
 
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iahcsr
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:25 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
TS-IOR wrote:
AA has two 737-8MAX ready for delivery or is it delivered but waiting for entry into service.. but all postponed because of the Shutdown.


Because nobody's there to process paperwork?

FAA safety inspectors have been furloughed.

UA has two 9Max and one 78J that would’ve been delivered by now if not waiting on FAA
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:35 pm

iahcsr wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Berevoff wrote:

Because nobody's there to process paperwork?

FAA safety inspectors have been furloughed.

UA has two 9Max and one 78J that would’ve been delivered by now if not waiting on FAA

The knock-on effects will impact every department currently affected, and will take weeks or in many cases months to recover after the shutdown ends. Many FAA projects are expected to be delayed for potentially up to a year or more, including En Route CPDLC implementation originally scheduled for this winter/spring and ADS-B in January 2020. It will also affect several major route structure changes in and out of several metroplexes, and particularly changes to the Atlantic routes and Northeast Corridor. As for the inspectors, I suspect it will take them quite a while to clear their backlog that is accumulating by the day. I can only imagine the impact it's having on airlines having aircraft ready for revenue service simply sitting idle. The impacts are farther and wider than many people realize.
 
teachpdx
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:39 pm

The EIS for the DL A220s may very well be delayed as there are no FAA folks to add it to DL’s operating certificate. Unfortunate for all the folks (myself included) with tix on the inaugural flights.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:53 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Berevoff wrote:
TS-IOR wrote:
AA has two 737-8MAX ready for delivery or is it delivered but waiting for entry into service.. but all postponed because of the Shutdown.


Because nobody's there to process paperwork?

FAA safety inspectors have been furloughed.


The determination between "essential" and "non-essential" personnel is pretty arbitrary. It seems most "non-essential" personnel are more essential than their agencies determined.

Then again, it sucks to work and not get paid.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:29 pm

Jouhou wrote:
The determination between "essential" and "non-essential" personnel is pretty arbitrary. It seems most "non-essential" personnel are more essential than their agencies determined.

It seems to be that way.

Jouhou wrote:
Then again, it sucks to work and not get paid.

Speaking as one of the many who are currently working without pay, it does indeed suck. I think it's only a matter of time before the impacts become more apparent if this isn't resolved soon. Furloughed employees are eligible to collect unemployment benefits (to be paid back after the end of the shutdown), but essential employees aren't eligible. No one ever wants to walk off the job, but some people may be forced into that position so that they have a way to pay the bills.
 
deebee278
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 pm

Despite the banner on so-called 'Headline News', my impression from the actual story is that only a security checkpoint has been closed. Access to the terminal in question can be obtained via the next checkpoint over. Still a pain in the you-know-what for the pax.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:41 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The determination between "essential" and "non-essential" personnel is pretty arbitrary. It seems most "non-essential" personnel are more essential than their agencies determined.

It seems to be that way.

Jouhou wrote:
Then again, it sucks to work and not get paid.

Speaking as one of the many who are currently working without pay, it does indeed suck. I think it's only a matter of time before the impacts become more apparent if this isn't resolved soon. Furloughed employees are eligible to collect unemployment benefits (to be paid back after the end of the shutdown), but essential employees aren't eligible. No one ever wants to walk off the job, but some people may be forced into that position so that they have a way to pay the bills.


In past furloughs I've been deemed "essential" and worked without pay. I just got lucky this time that the DoD was already funded. I hear ya.
 
Homadreaming86
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:51 pm

Wow thanks everyone! I didn’t even think of all the new aircraft having to be placed on hold at the moment. Any airlines taking big deliveries this month besides what was mentioned?

I’m really hoping folks in Washington come to their senses soon but if we continue to see this shutdown let’s say go into two months, at what point could we see major disruptions to actual travel? Or is that not possible?

Would Airlines eventually have to park aircraft currently in service because of FAA?

Airport wise, there’s gonna be a lot of pain with folks not getting paid, etc... I would think that could potentially lead to some bigger issues...

Which leads me to believe perhaps there needs to be further legislation regarding what is ‘essential’ and what is not... I feel air traffic controllers and TSA agents, many folks at the FAA should be considered ‘essential’ for very obvious reasons and I hope the industry lobbies for these changes.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:55 pm

The FAA is not approving structural repairs now. If an airline needs FAA approval for a repair and there isn’t someone with delegated authority, the airplane has to wait. This will be affecting some airplanes returning to service from C and D Checks.

The FAA has also stopped reviewing and approving service bulletins and other modifications. A backlog is forming that will take months to recover.

As time goes on more and more airplanes will be grounded because either they can’t get delivered or other FAA approvals are not available. FAA approvals are all over the industry including various manuals, procedures and repairs.
 
september
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:17 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
The FAA is not approving structural repairs now. If an airline needs FAA approval for a repair and there isn’t someone with delegated authority, the airplane has to wait. This will be affecting some airplanes returning to service from C and D Checks.
.


Could a plane be send for those checks to EU or other country where there mutual recognition on aviation approvals?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:31 pm

At least the DOD is funded and not on a CR. I think it is the 3rd time in 12 years that DOD has a full budget so new programs can begin. With a Continuing Resolution only projects already in place can continue, that messed up so many things.

The law needs to be changed where essential personnel get paid during a shutdown and those that were working get more than the non essential. In the current situation everyone gets paid eventually, but the non-essential got added vacation, basically. A lot of the FAA concerning inspections and type certificates etc should be essential.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:39 pm

september wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
The FAA is not approving structural repairs now. If an airline needs FAA approval for a repair and there isn’t someone with delegated authority, the airplane has to wait. This will be affecting some airplanes returning to service from C and D Checks.
.


Could a plane be send for those checks to EU or other country where there mutual recognition on aviation approvals?

If the plane is coming from the US, who is going to issue the permit? Either way, I'm pretty sure an N registered aircraft would require an FAA inspection.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:46 pm

september wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
The FAA is not approving structural repairs now. If an airline needs FAA approval for a repair and there isn’t someone with delegated authority, the airplane has to wait. This will be affecting some airplanes returning to service from C and D Checks.
.


Could a plane be send for those checks to EU or other country where there mutual recognition on aviation approvals?


The airline operating the airplane is who needs to get the approval. It is based on the registration of the airplane. A US airline can’t get an EASA approval for a Boeing airplane as far as I know.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:31 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
At least the DOD is funded and not on a CR. I think it is the 3rd time in 12 years that DOD has a full budget so new programs can begin. With a Continuing Resolution only projects already in place can continue, that messed up so many things.

The law needs to be changed where essential personnel get paid during a shutdown and those that were working get more than the non essential. In the current situation everyone gets paid eventually, but the non-essential got added vacation, basically. A lot of the FAA concerning inspections and type certificates etc should be essential.

Yes they should be considered essential, but the same could be said for most government employees.. FAA inspections are essential for the aviation industry, but NPS guides are essential to the tourist industry in park towns, BLM permitting is essential to the oil industry, ATF personal are essential for breweries....There are some useless goverment employees, but in general they are all essential to somebody.

The law says only employees neccessary for the protection of life and property are essential. What that means is open to interpretation.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:42 am

With respect to aircraft delivery delays, something will have to give. Either retirements will be delayed (doubtful in my opinion) or else we will start to see some schedule changes (more likely in my opinion).
 
capejet
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:14 am

Is this shutdown affecting Southwest Airlines in their attempt to complete the certification process to begin service to Hawaii?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:27 am

Keep this thread focused on discussing aviation impacts -- NOT politics. Political discussions belong in the Non Aviation Forum. If you cannot avoid discussing politics, then your comment belongs there.

atcsundevil
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:38 am

If, heaven forbid, there is some kind of air tragedy, heads will roll.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
blockski
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:26 am

lavalampluva wrote:
If, heaven forbid, there is some kind of air tragedy, heads will roll.


Additionally, the NTSB is currently short-staffed as well and are not able to investigate lots of incidents.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... e33ad7e030
 
bob75013
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:04 am

capejet wrote:
Is this shutdown affecting Southwest Airlines in their attempt to complete the certification process to begin service to Hawaii?


It sure is.
 
jonnyclam123
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:27 am

The shutdown is also affecting Silver Airways ATR 72-600 entry into service on Feb 13th
 
JamesRenard
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:05 am

Is the shutdown affecting the renewal of Essential Air Service contracts?
 
ryanov
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:22 am

How does making more people essential help? More people that will have to work without pay?
 
A3801000
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:00 am

TSA checkpoint closed in Houston due to staffing issues

The security checkpoint and ticketing counter in Terminal B at George Bush Intercontinental Airport closed at 4:30p Sunday due to “staffing issues associated with the partial shutdown of the federal government”
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:03 am

"Unscheduled absences " are ticking up daily.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... amid%3famp
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:19 am

Would wet-leases or dry-leases also be affected should an airline seeking subs for aircraft sitting on tarmac(delivery or return from C-/D-Checks) try to lease one?
 
USAirKid
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:23 am

The opening of commercial service at PAE (Paine Field in Everett, WA north of Seattle) could be delayed. This would give AS and QX a bit of heart burn.

https://www.heraldnet.com/news/federal- ... r-flights/
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:34 am

Not that this is ANYWHERE near as “woe as me” as those not getting paid right now, the shutdown is effecting my ability to get my Instrurment certification. I can take the Written test, but it won’t process. I am really thinking the backlog of Practical/Oral testing will delay things even further even after the shutdown ends.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
MO11
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:47 am

JamesRenard wrote:
Is the shutdown affecting the renewal of Essential Air Service contracts?


No.

SeoulIncheon wrote:
Would wet-leases or dry-leases also be affected should an airline seeking subs for aircraft sitting on tarmac(delivery or return from C-/D-Checks) try to lease one?


Not all heavy checks need an FAA sign-off. It depends on the type of repairs needed. No additional airplanes can be added to an airline's ops specs, so deliveries and dry-leases are out. Wet-leases would be OK if the operating airline's ops specs don't need to be changed.
 
jakubz
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:06 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
"Unscheduled absences " are ticking up daily.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... amid%3famp


So does that mean that TSA now stands for Thousands Staying Away instead of Thousands Standing Around? :duck:
KORD>RJAA>KORD day trip? Why not! The beauty of non-reving.
Yes, I use ICAO codes
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I work for United Airlines, but I don't speak for the company.
 
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cpd
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:12 pm

ryanov wrote:
How does making more people essential help? More people that will have to work without pay?



Surely they will all give up on that, you only do so much for the love of the job before you call it quits.

What should happen is that the shortfall in funding should come directly from the entitlements and pay of the politicians (and President). When they feel the pinch, they will act differently. Spare those workers, they don’t deserve this.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:22 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
"Unscheduled absences " are ticking up daily.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... amid%3famp

The Flu is hitting many places very hard right now. Nothing unusual, but it does make for a good scare story.
 
winginit
Posts: 1911
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:28 pm

Another interesting tidbit here is that DB1B and T100 data is delayed as well. While that won't have customer impacts, if it goes too long it will be frustrating for the analytics teams within airlines who rely on that data to refresh industry modeling.
 
jporterfi
Posts: 496
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:41 pm

I just passed my private pilot checkride last week, and was issued a temporary paper certificate. Because of the shutdown, the FAA is not processing applications submitted through IACRA, so I have no idea when I'll receive my plastic certificate.
PPC (ASEL) | Aircraft Flown: PA28, C172, DA20
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:10 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
"Unscheduled absences " are ticking up daily.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.co ... amid%3famp

The Flu is hitting many places very hard right now. Nothing unusual, but it does make for a good scare story.

Except the absence numbers were compared to last year, which actually had more flue in January.

Are questioning the fact that low wage workers are prone to not show up if they are not being paid?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 349
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:22 pm

Another effect of the shutdown:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/01/15/del ... month.html

The partial U.S. government shutdown will cost Delta Air Lines about $25 million in revenue this month as fewer government contractors and employees are traveling, the airline's, CEO Ed Bastian, said Tuesday.
The shutdown is the longest ever and has left some 800,000 government employees furloughed or working without pay.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:23 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Another effect of the shutdown:

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/01/15/del ... month.html

The partial U.S. government shutdown will cost Delta Air Lines about $25 million in revenue this month as fewer government contractors and employees are traveling, the airline's, CEO Ed Bastian, said Tuesday.
The shutdown is the longest ever and has left some 800,000 government employees furloughed or working without pay.


I figure the effects on AA/UA/WN must be higher as they have hubs in the Washington area.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 324
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:42 pm

So the US government is spending well over 100 million a month on air travel????????

Good grief, we have an out of control government.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:28 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
So the US government is spending well over 100 million a month on air travel????????

Good grief, we have an out of control government.


I'm pretty sure it's not all direct government spending. Some of it would also be employees/contractors deferring/canceling personal trips due to not being paid.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Shutdown disruption on Aviation

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:18 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
So the US government is spending well over 100 million a month on air travel????????

Good grief, we have an out of control government.


All the government travel spending is significantly discounted, "The City Pair Program (CPP) offers fares considerably lower than comparable commercial fares, saving the federal government billions of dollars annually"


Read about it here:
https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/tr ... ir-program
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