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Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:53 pm
by jwjsamster
Hi forum,

My friend recently traveled back to Vienna for Christmas and ended up flying on Austrian 71/72 on a Boeing 767-300er. As any avgeek I decided to do some research onto the aircraft that they were flying on. I noticed that Austrian's 767 fleet is getting on in age ( with their oldest being 28 years old !) and they don't seem to have a direct replacement in planning in the works.

Anyway I was wondering what you all expect to see from them in the future as a replacement for their 767 fleet and maybe their 777 fleet. Seeing that they have been moving towards an airbus centric short haul fleet could we potentially see a a330neo? or a350-900s and 1000s to help with fleet commonality?

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:12 pm
by Bhoy
Lufthansa have said they're waiting for OS to turn a profit before looking at a fleet replacement plan (as the LH Group do the ordering centrally)

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:15 pm
by oschkosch
According to LH CEO Carsten Spohr they will get "f**k all" unless they become profitable in the near future.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ak-balance

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:27 pm
by FlightLevel360
787-9 will be a great fit for them

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:34 pm
by VSMUT
oschkosch wrote:
According to LH CEO Carsten Spohr they will get "f**k all" unless they become profitable in the near future.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ak-balance

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Well either that, or just hand-me-downs from Lufthansa or cheap second-hand aircraft.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:54 pm
by IWMBH
Don't they need newer, more fuel efficient planes to become profitable?

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:59 pm
by spinotter
oschkosch wrote:
According to LH CEO Carsten Spohr they will get "f**k all" unless they become profitable in the near future.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ak-balance

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I think I like that man Carsten Spohr. What else does an airline exist for than to make money, right? It's really only in France, though, that workers can successfully combat the low wage levels that are part of what the superrich filch from the merely middle class. So maybe make money but not so much money that your workers are on food stamps?

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:01 pm
by asuflyer
We talk about this every few weeks, please see

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1389303&hilit
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1394305&start=50&hilit

As others have stated Spohr indicated that OS would not get a newer fleet until its financial performance improves. Since he made those remarks nothing has really changed at OS. Anyways, OS's 763's are been well maintained and they have for the most part have not experienced serious maintenance issues unlike 767's at AA, WS, UA (before the overhauls). For wide-bodies, the LH fleet plan released in 2017 the replacement for the LX/EW/LH A330's and OS 763's was stated to be a single replacement. LH has a plan to standardize all A320 series A/C at LH/EW/LX/OS/ and eventually SN and WK, so they are more easily swapped between airlines.

OS newest acquired 772 was a used example from AM. If anything they will probably continue with 1 for 1 wide-bodies replacements with newer used examples. OS' expansion to HKG (already cut) and MIA (reduced frequencies) and LAX has not been regarded as very successful.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:04 pm
by Polot
spinotter wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
According to LH CEO Carsten Spohr they will get "f**k all" unless they become profitable in the near future.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ak-balance

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I think I like that man Carsten Spohr. What else does an airline exist for than to make money, right? It's really only in France, though, that workers can successfully combat the low wage levels that are part of what the superrich filch from the merely middle class. So maybe make money but not so much money that your workers are on food stamps?

His position only works to a point though. As they say sometimes you got to spend money to make money. If you are stuck flying older less efficient planes because you are not profitable enough for the group to give you new planes, and direct competitors are competing with planes 20%+ more fuel efficient, how are you ever going to compete and become profitable?


(Answer:you won’t, and just get increasingly more unprofitable)

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:04 pm
by InnsbruckFlyer
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:26 pm
by VSMUT
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.


*Eurowings operated by Austrian

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:59 pm
by geoshina
I recently flew CDG-VIE-BKK with OS and had a great experience all around.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:17 pm
by spinotter
Polot wrote:
spinotter wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
According to LH CEO Carsten Spohr they will get "f**k all" unless they become profitable in the near future.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... ak-balance

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I think I like that man Carsten Spohr. What else does an airline exist for than to make money, right? It's really only in France, though, that workers can successfully combat the low wage levels that are part of what the superrich filch from the merely middle class. So maybe make money but not so much money that your workers are on food stamps?

His position only works to a point though. As they say sometimes you got to spend money to make money. If you are stuck flying older less efficient planes because you are not profitable enough for the group to give you new planes, and direct competitors are competing with planes 20%+ more fuel efficient, how are you ever going to compete and become profitable?


(Answer:you won’t, and just get increasingly more unprofitable)


But if it were that simple, then I think Carsten Spohr beancounter would be offering those fuel-efficient planes next week. To me it sounds like a structural problem at OS, level of wages, pilot contracts, etc. Don't tell me there's none of that. Compare with LX, LH, SN?

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:38 pm
by OA940
How much are they losing? Is it really that much? Couldn't they place a single order for the replacements of SN's and LX's A330s and OS's 767s and 777s as a single type?

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:02 pm
by InnsbruckFlyer
VSMUT wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.


*Eurowings operated by Austrian


I’ll do you one better and say that he’ll merge Austrian and Eurowings Europe

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:11 pm
by spinotter
OA940 wrote:
How much are they losing? Is it really that much? Couldn't they place a single order for the replacements of SN's and LX's A330s and OS's 767s and 777s as a single type?


Just stirring the pot, but if I were Carsten Spohr I would pay good money for LX planes, but not a cent for OS until they show a profit!

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:17 pm
by VSMUT
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.


*Eurowings operated by Austrian


I’ll do you one better and say that he’ll merge Austrian and Eurowings Europe


You are right. It's actually a bit weird (ominous?) that they have 2 separate airlines in Austria like that. Almost as if they heard the story about how Tyrolean took over Austrian, and now want to repeat that with Eurowings :banghead:

IWMBH wrote:
Don't they need newer, more fuel efficient planes to become profitable?


Because more fuel efficient planes are just a drop in the water when it comes to an airline with poor cost management. New more efficient planes failed to save more than one ailing airline in the past.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:29 pm
by Blerg
But are they realistically expecting OS to turn a profit soon? How can they when OS' home airport is currently a battlefield with Wizz Air, Level, easyJet and Laudamotion all dumping seats on a market that's not that big to start with. It will be years before OS is able to restore some healthy yields. I am sure LH knows this... then again, I wonder if there would be backclash in Austria if they tried to replace an iconic brand such as OS with something as bland as EW.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:56 pm
by DUSZRH
OS is profitable, but the target is 8% ROE. 2017’s EBIT was 100m EUR, LHG wants something around 150m.

Older planes, if well-maintained aren’t necessarily bad. A lot of US-Airlines fly profitably transatlantic with 767s and the 772s are also only one generation old.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:44 pm
by stylo777
Yes, continental traffic is really a bloodbath in VIE and quite a challenging one if you compare it to other LHG hubs and focus cities. None of their mothers and sisters experience the same level of competition at home.
On the other hand longhaul is still untouched except for the usual ME and Asian carriers.
Particularly the last comment of DUSZRH is very valid. Old plane in age doesn't mean necessarily bad and unprofitable. First off, you have much less capital costs which will be absorbt by the fuel savings. Moreover, they recently refitted their planes with their newest product and are about to rollout premium eco for the whole widebody fleet.

AFAIK all longhaul destination decisions for LH, LX and OS are taken collaboratively meaning they aren't left alone. LHG doesn't cannibalize and shift capacities accordingly. Actually 2018/19 showed us some major shifts for OS and another one is due in April (YUL iso YYZ). Along with that comes the feeder traffic, because without that their longhaul won't work. Therefore, I still see a positive battlefield for OS since the competition is currently strongest on p2p only. Oh, and EW Europe is already fighting it with the advantage for OS of providing feed via codeshare.

Last but not least, those ebit margins aren't so bad, but why not increasing the ambitions if you are in the position to do so (=c.spohr).

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 am
by aemoreira1981
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.


*Eurowings operated by Austrian


I’ll do you one better and say that he’ll merge Austrian and Eurowings Europe


I honestly see that as happening, with the decision then being to fold down to these public brands within the group: Eurowings, Lufthansa (from FRA and MUC), Swiss, and Edelweiss---with Brussels Airlines and Austrian brands disappearing. OS' long-haul routes would likely go to Eurowings, and for that, I see the long-haul fleet being renewed with a massive B789 order (which could also cover LX and WK). The profitable long-haul routes from VIE would go to Eurowings, while other customers would be funneled through ZRH, FRA, or MUC.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:35 am
by aviationaware
IWMBH wrote:
Don't they need newer, more fuel efficient planes to become profitable?

If the higher cost of capital eats away the potential fuel savings, renewing the fleet without any hopes of better profit margins does not make much sense.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:37 am
by Blerg
I suppose they made a profit in 2017, we will have to see how they performed in 2018. I am especially curious about Q4 18 as that's when they added, I think close to 50 weekly flights, to counter the LCC expansion. These must have affected their finances. As for their long-haul, I think only New York could work without feed, I guess LH knows that and that's why they are not planning on sending EW long-haul planes there.

That said, I think OS will make it in the end, if I had to bet on someone folding in Vienna then my first choice would be Wizz Air.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:14 am
by FatCat
I'll be flying on an Austrian Dash 8-400 VIE-BLQ in a month... last time I flew on one of those funny thingy (STR-ZRH) was a terrible experience. ATRs are way better... SAABs the better ones.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am
by VSMUT
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly see that as happening, with the decision then being to fold down to these public brands within the group: Eurowings, Lufthansa (from FRA and MUC), Swiss, and Edelweiss---with Brussels Airlines and Austrian brands disappearing. OS' long-haul routes would likely go to Eurowings, and for that, I see the long-haul fleet being renewed with a massive B789 order (which could also cover LX and WK). The profitable long-haul routes from VIE would go to Eurowings, while other customers would be funneled through ZRH, FRA, or MUC.


One would question the longevity of Edelweiss as well. Could end up as Eurowings Switzerland...

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:25 am
by stylo777
VSMUT wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I honestly see that as happening, with the decision then being to fold down to these public brands within the group: Eurowings, Lufthansa (from FRA and MUC), Swiss, and Edelweiss---with Brussels Airlines and Austrian brands disappearing. OS' long-haul routes would likely go to Eurowings, and for that, I see the long-haul fleet being renewed with a massive B789 order (which could also cover LX and WK). The profitable long-haul routes from VIE would go to Eurowings, while other customers would be funneled through ZRH, FRA, or MUC.


One would question the longevity of Edelweiss as well. Could end up as Eurowings Switzerland...

eeehm - no.
rest assured that this won't happen.

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:08 pm
by TheEuphorian
InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
With Carsten Spohr in charge, he'll probably just make OS a low cost carrier and give them old LH Airbuses.


aka Eurowings Austria

Re: Austrian Airlines Fleet Renewal

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:08 pm
by jwjsamster
Sorry to come back to this conversation a little late. After speaking to my friend, who is Austrian, she said that the Austrian brand is still held in quite high regard within the country and that people will not be happy to see the brand disappear. I for one would also be sad to say goodbye to Austrian for it to become Eurowings Austria.

I would personally like to see it renew it'S current fleet and expand it's European fleet so it doesn't have to rely on other Lufthansa group airlines in order to feed it's network. In the same way that Swiss has started using the A220s I think Austrian could benefit something similar. Not necessarily larger narrowbodies but something that still has long legs and can feed it'S smaller network.

Anyway, thank you everybody for your feedback and I'm sorry if this has been addressed before

JWJ