Looking at the route network of THR Airport it seems that Iran has quite an extensive number of airlines and flights operating within its borders. Iran isn't particularly vast nor wealthy and it also is a single mass system. Is it that there are no alternatives to air travel?

lhrsfosyd wrote:

Looking at the route network of THR Airport it seems that Iran has quite an extensive number of airlines and flights operating within its borders. Iran isn't particularly vast nor wealthy and it also is a single mass system. Is it that there are no alternatives to air travel?

Excuse me, but your perception of Iran couldn't be more wrong! Iran is a very wealthy country and the second largest economy in the Middle East despite all hostilities and sanctions. Unfortunately Iran is ruled by a corrupt system, but that doesn't mean we're not a wealthy nation.

Iran's infrastructure is one of the best in West-Asia with in most cities a well connected and modern sub-way, bus and train network. Iran is a very large country ruled by a middle-class population of more than 80 Million mostly living in urban areas.

The reason why Iran has a huge domestic network is, because there is demand for it and most people can actually afford to fly. Iranians are all about convenience and how to get to destination X the fastest and easiest way. That's air-travel.

I hope I answered your question.

Blerg wrote:

Aren't domestic fares set by the government?

Also, it makes sense for Tehran to be well connected with the rest of the country, what about other cities? How easy is it from someone from Tabriz to go to Mashhad? Or from Esfahan to any other city?

Yes, most fares are set by the government, unless it's from a private entity.

For secondary cities, we've a well connected train and bus network. Air-travel is also an option, but due to the lack of planes, the number of seats and frequency is limited. That's why Iran had all those ATR's and narrow-body planes on order, which couldn't go through unfortunately.

Trains in Iran are comfortable though and a good mode of transportation. The cheaper option is by bus which offers free WIFI, Personal TV in some buses, snacks and seats are as comfortable as any other western nation. I've actually traveled from Esfahan to Shiraz by bus and it took me 6 hours and didn't had any difficulties. It cost me 30.000 tomans or 2.5USD for a single trip and met a lot of tourists from Australia, Singapore, Germany and two travelers from Chicago!

lhrsfosyd wrote:

Looking at the route network of THR Airport it seems that Iran has quite an extensive number of airlines and flights operating within its borders. Iran isn't particularly vast nor wealthy and it also is a single mass system. Is it that there are no alternatives to air travel?

You answered your own question. Iran has an extensive number if airlines and flights operating within its borders because it is vast and wealthy and like anywhere else, air travel is the preferred way of getting around, especially in such a big country.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

Looking at the route network of THR Airport it seems that Iran has quite an extensive number of airlines and flights operating within its borders. Iran isn't particularly vast nor wealthy and it also is a single mass system. Is it that there are no alternatives to air travel?

Iran is probably at its ‘poorest’ level as it can get due to years of sanctions and economic mismanagement and it’s economy is still as large as many European and Latin American countries and it’s certainly a powerhouse in the Middle East . I would be cautious to call Iran poor. But rich and poor are relative terms. It’s not small either, around the size of Alaska with over 80 million people. So people do fly and in fact the aviation sector can not meet the demand due to sanctions. It has a very long history with Aviation that spans a century and it’s young middle class population enjoys traveling domestically (can you blame them? The country is a walking meuseum). As others mentioned the terrain is definitely another reason to catch a flight. But some of the densest routes like THR-IFN and THR-MHD are also extensively served by major highways and railroads so it’s not just terrain.

Blerg wrote:

Aren't domestic fares set by the government?

Also, it makes sense for Tehran to be well connected with the rest of the country, what about other cities? How easy is it from someone from Tabriz to go to Mashhad? Or from Esfahan to any other city?

You can fly from anywhere in the country to both cities! Especially Mashhad which gets massive crowds due to its importance as a holy city in Shia faith and basically is connected to almost every major airport in the country. Tabriz is also heavily served so are Isfahan, Shiraz and Bandar Abbas as well as the island of Kish which is very popular with most Iranians. There’s also a lot of routings like Isfahan and Shiraz or Shiraz to Bandar Abbas that are heavily served. Sure Tehran gets most of the glory but there’s a lot of demand all around.

Blerg wrote:

By the way, what routes IR's Atrs operate? From what I recall they are not based in Tehran.

Looking at flightradar, it seems they operate many routes between smaller airports, some are frequently in Shiraz. Have look at https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ep-itb and replace the last letter of the registration in ascending order to see more. There are some airports in the list that I never heard of when trying to find flights around Iran...

persiangulf93 wrote:

lhrsfosyd wrote:

Looking at the route network of THR Airport it seems that Iran has quite an extensive number of airlines and flights operating within its borders. Iran isn't particularly vast nor wealthy and it also is a single mass system. Is it that there are no alternatives to air travel?

Excuse me, but your perception of Iran couldn't be more wrong! Iran is a very wealthy country and the second largest economy in the Middle East despite all hostilities and sanctions. Unfortunately Iran is ruled by a corrupt system, but that doesn't mean we're not a wealthy nation.

Iran's infrastructure is one of the best in West-Asia with in most cities a well connected and modern sub-way, bus and train network. Iran is a very large country ruled by a middle-class population of more than 80 Million mostly living in urban areas.

The reason why Iran has a huge domestic network is, because there is demand for it and most people can actually afford to fly. Iranians are all about convenience and how to get to destination X the fastest and easiest way. That's air-travel.

I hope I answered your question.

Thanks for giving your invariably precious contribution to this forum - we need more people like you.
Thanks also for adding some 'international' perspective into the discussion.
Again, without crucial inputs like yours geography seems to remain largely a mere perception on this forum, rather than anything else!

Keep the thread on topic or it will be locked. Political comments belong in the Non Aviation Forum. Let's stick to talking about airplanes here.

✈️ atcsundevil

With the experience gained maintaining their older fleet, I am surprised they have not attempted to build their own aircraft. perhaps starting with a regional turbo prop

So, to what extent are LCCs present in Iran, and how do they affect local and/or regional operations, not only out of Tehran, but viability and competiveness on interational/regional markets from other cities - such as Eshfahan, Shiraz, Tabriz, Kish Island, Bandar-e-Abbas example? I assume that with the presence of not only hybrid needs (tourism to Kish), port activities at Bandar-e-Abbas, petrochemical industry traffic, et al - this is why we see so many 'specialized' carriers all operating? Are they all, also, operating at the government's mandated prices, or are some private and thus can set fares to greater autonomy?

Additionally impressive when discussing Iran, is to consider the security challenges that it faces, with boarders shared with Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan - I can see the act of securing such a region's flights to be quite a task.

On another side topic - what are the views of the current regime towards foreign investment in, or the creation of new carriers?

What are the current legal, or foreseeable, possibilities for Iranian carriers, who will undoubtedly have to replace their current fleets?

News like this certainly brings that fact to prescient discussion;
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/middleea ... index.html

Of course, our thoughts and prayers are with all of those who were affected by this tragedy.

Rajahdhani wrote:

On another side topic - what are the views of the current regime towards foreign investment in, or the creation of new carriers?

What are the current legal, or foreseeable, possibilities for Iranian carriers, who will undoubtedly have to replace their current fleets?

News like this certainly brings that fact to prescient discussion;
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/14/middleea ... index.html

Of course, our thoughts and prayers are with all of those who were affected by this tragedy.

Or, what is the legal framework and/or policy in Iran to allow 5th freedom flights, as well as foreign airlines to operate domestic flights? While I realize that this is a complex issue on several levels (highlighted recently by the Norwegian 737 stuck in Shiraz for almost 2 months), there are no sanctions on foreign airlines to operate to, via or inside Iran (or if there are, they are obviously not enforced). Wouldn't allowing this be at least a partial solution to Iran's aged fleet problem? Sacrifice the local airlines, but let the local market have access to safe and modern aircraft.

georgiabill wrote:

With the experience gained maintaining their older fleet, I am surprised they have not attempted to build their own aircraft. perhaps starting with a regional turbo prop

They have a small amount of experience in this, with the IR-AN140, a license built version of the Ukrainian AN-140, but there were a couple of crashes, and combined with a few high profile Tupolev crashes, Iranian people really don't like flying on anything 'Russian'. If Sukhoi can get a Russified Superjet sold to them, it'll be interesting to see if that perception changes. Also, as mentioned before, Iran is gigantic, with many cities and a large population. Some cities only see flights a few times a week, and if a large shipment of new aircraft (somewhere in the low hundreds) could be brought in, they'd all get put to use! Mostly for new routes, and to a lesser extent to replace the older 737s, MD-80s, Avros and Fokkers that still fly everywhere. You never see an empty or only half-full flight within Iran.

Anyway, Iranians love to travel, they love good American technology like Boeing, and despite what people may think from the media, they are all lovely, hospitable people. It is almost impossible to visit their country and not be invited to tea, or to be given phone numbers so they can be contacted to show you around if you visit their city. It's almost embarrassingly friendly for us.

Alas Iranian skies got a little quieter this last week with the retirement of the 727s. I enjoyed 4 lovely flights on all 3 of the passenger jets in the last few years.

opticalilyushin wrote:

They have a small amount of experience in this, with the IR-AN140, a license built version of the Ukrainian AN-140, but there were a couple of crashes, and combined with a few high profile Tupolev crashes, Iranian people really don't like flying on anything 'Russian'. If Sukhoi can get a Russified Superjet sold to them, it'll be interesting to see if that perception changes.

Would that not add further sanctions against Russia, from the U.S.? They may not care, however - with the recent Huawei arrest, I cannot imagine that the U.S. would allow that to go quitely - especially if we can demonstrate that they 'Russified' an example that would otherwise require U.S. technology to work. My thought was the via One-Belt-One-Road, and to recuperate a trade balance with Iran further - the ARJ-21 could also be 'invested' in Iran. Either way, both manufacturers are facing the severe teething issues of supply chain dynamics - which are proving to be the greatest snare for most producers, especially sensitive so at this size, time of development. Iranians have been keeping those aged Boeing aircraft still flying, and as work horses - as true a testament to how ruggedly and well built those aircraft were - and how dogged and ingenious Iranian technicians and repair facilities have had to been to reverse engineer exact fits to keep these planes in the sky.

opticalilyushin wrote:

Also, as mentioned before, Iran is gigantic, with many cities and a large population. Some cities only see flights a few times a week, and if a large shipment of new aircraft (somewhere in the low hundreds) could be brought in, they'd all get put to use! Mostly for new routes, and to a lesser extent to replace the older 737s, MD-80s, Avros and Fokkers that still fly everywhere. You never see an empty or only half-full flight within Iran.

This was something that fascinated me during the removal of the sanctions, and then the return later - despite massive orders, most of these aircraft were essentially order book clean ups for both Boeing and Airbus. It was a white-tail sale, and Iran was essentially taking on as much capacity as possible - not to expand massively, not to launch 'the world's next best airline' - precisely because the new influx of aircraft would fundamentally change the local aviation market. It's hard to see how the government would have to control prices to begin with, if there were the planes to operate to demand of the flying public. It would have also required changes at airlines (new systems to handle new demand, more efficient crew scheduling et al). The ripple on effect would have been significant, and perhaps a boon to an overall economy that is literally screaming for jobs, and career paths for a young and well educated population. It would not have been a silver bullet, but before Iran even could consider greater tourism, or situating itself as the ME5 - it would have to work on these domestic and regional routes first. It was a pragmatic step forward, and the Iranian orders would have clearly demonstrated that - pragmatic steps out of an artificially created black hole of need. I mean, we laud a 737 Max's efficiency today, when comparing it to the past generation that it is replacing. How much more efficient is a 737 MAX when compared to a 707? I am sure that Boeing would love to make that sales graphic.

opticalilyushin wrote:

Anyway, Iranians love to travel, they love good American technology like Boeing, and despite what people may think from the media, they are all lovely, hospitable people. It is almost impossible to visit their country and not be invited to tea, or to be given phone numbers so they can be contacted to show you around if you visit their city. It's almost embarrassingly friendly for us.

I think that this is validly the reason that we should have left the conversation, devoid of rhetoric that was not pertinent directly to the main topic. A false equivalence between the ruling bodies of the Islamic Republic of Iran (and their decisions) and the people of the nation of Iran - are a distinct division that many cannot contemplate, much less understand - unless they were exposed to it. Experiencing it as a thought is only half the issue - speaking to those who live through it is another, as their experience brings a single though into the tapestry that is modern reality. The fact that they are 'embarrassingly friendly', is even moreso impressive - given that they have been under sanctions for decades, and are often powerless to the decisions of the government - who enacts policies that effect sanctions that effect the people of the nation. High prices for everything, sanctions preventing the majority of western items from entrance into the nation, inferior 'one-off' products to meet local demand, a devalued currency, corruption - and they still find the place and time to be nice. Alot understand - what the government of Iran wants, and the people of Iran need, have not been congruently pursued in a while. The sanctions don't as harshly affect the rich - and backing to the topic - it makes expendable income even more valuable. Why go to Eshfahan for holidays, when Dubai is right around the corner? You can shop until you drop, not have to worry as much about 'values' being policed, and not be as tied to the sanctions. I see why the Gulf carriers enjoy such premier status in Iran - and as long as the local market is depressed/suppressed - they are likely the short-medium term winners on the long-haul markets.

This is a last reminder to users:

Political discussion belongs in the Non Aviation Forum ONLY.

This thread is not about Iran's wealth, GDP, political situation, religion, etc. This thread is about aviation in Iran. Let's please try to have one thread about Iranian aviation that manages to stay on-topic and without being locked.

Off-topic comments will be removed, and users may be warned or banned. The thread will be locked if it persists.

Blerg wrote:

Last year TK signed some sort of an agreement to promote Kish as a destination. Does anyone know if something became of it? Wouldn't it make sense for them to launch flights though I don't know how successful those would be.

On a somewhat tangential note, is Qeshm still visa-free to visit?

Blerg wrote:

Homadreaming86 wrote:

Blerg wrote:

Aren't domestic fares set by the government?

Also, it makes sense for Tehran to be well connected with the rest of the country, what about other cities? How easy is it from someone from Tabriz to go to Mashhad? Or from Esfahan to any other city?

You can fly from anywhere in the country to both cities! Especially Mashhad which gets massive crowds due to its importance as a holy city in Shia faith and basically is connected to almost every major airport in the country. Tabriz is also heavily served so are Isfahan, Shiraz and Bandar Abbas as well as the island of Kish which is very popular with most Iranians. There’s also a lot of routings like Isfahan and Shiraz or Shiraz to Bandar Abbas that are heavily served. Sure Tehran gets most of the glory but there’s a lot of demand all around.

Thank you, that's the answer I was looking for.

By the way, what routes IR's Atrs operate? From what I recall they are not based in Tehran.

You are welcome! It seems others have a better grasp of the ATR usage and have shared already!

It is truly fascinating how the Iranian aviation sector has continued to maintain such a solid and active operability despite decades of extremely aggressive sanctions. It speaks to the strength and professionalism of the industry there.

Would that not add further sanctions against Russia, from the U.S.?

The issue is not explicitly sanctions on Russia- since SSJ is a civilian type. The issue is the sanctions on Iran, and an aircraft with a certain % of components from the US has to seek approval from US regulators before the sale is approved. Given the US is guaranteed to be non-cooperative, that is the whole point behind the SSJ-100R, to reduce US components below that % threshold.