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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:32 am

Ryanair01 wrote:

seahawk wrote:
You are missing the point, keeping Tegel open or quickly extending BER is not gonna win you an election in Berlin or Brandenburg, it will do the exact opposite.


Erm, no...... Have you ever been to Berlin or know anyone who lives there? Your statement only stands if you ignore all the available facts https://www.dw.com/en/berlin-votes-to-keep-tegel-airport-open/a-40667155
.

A non-binding vote that has already been rejected by the senate.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:04 am

CARST wrote:

It's not their terminal. They don't own it. Germany also doesn't know the concept of long time terminal leases. Either an airline owns it, or it belongs to the airport company, which has to maintain it.


Thanks CARST for your always very good and informative posts!

Just for the records, there is one example for a terminal (partly) owned by an airline in Germany. Terminal 2 at Munich (MUC) is owned 40% by LH (Lufthansa). Planning, construction and operation was always made by LH and MUC together.
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Lewton
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:58 pm

People want TXL to remain open, they want to fly from it all the time instead of taking the S-Bahn to SXF, and on top of that they complain that it is extremely slow and crowded.
Something has to give.
As an ex Berliner who loves visiting the city often, I would be OK with Terminal A and tiny terminal B remaining open, but with the airport increasing its fees and reducing the number of flights. Then it would become something between LIN and LCY.
Terminal C has to go, it is a disgrace.
From Hamburg with love.
 
ExpatVet
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:37 am

Thibault973 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps LH should make a big investment to fix the intolerable conditions at TXL...if they want it to remain open.


While super practical, TXL has to be the worst airport in "the western world" I've ever flown to and from. No rapid transit, hours to get your luggage after landing and an horrible horrible and crowed layount. The worst.


Oh, I don't know, LTN is a pest hole, and I can't say LGA is a rousing endorsement of aviation...
L101, 733/4/5/8/9, 741/2/3 (never managed 744!), MD 80/2/3/8/90, MD11, DHC8/3/Q4, E170, E195, 757, 77W, 763/4, Travel Air 2000. A300/310, A319/320/321, A333, ATR-72, probably a few others I forget. Passenger, not pilot, alas! BUD based.
 
Noshow
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:41 am

Just for the records, there is one example for a terminal (partly) owned by an airline in Germany.


Ryanair owns a (minor) terminal at Bremen as well.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 322
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:02 am

ExpatVet wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Perhaps LH should make a big investment to fix the intolerable conditions at TXL...if they want it to remain open.


While super practical, TXL has to be the worst airport in "the western world" I've ever flown to and from. No rapid transit, hours to get your luggage after landing and an horrible horrible and crowed layount. The worst.


Oh, I don't know, LTN is a pest hole, and I can't say LGA is a rousing endorsement of aviation...


Ok maybe not THE wort. Let's change that to "the worst main airport". Actually the worst in Europe to me would have to be Budapest low-cost "mini" terminal which really feels more like a slaugther house (but that's off topic).
 
Noshow
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:07 am

Tegel operates way beyond it's designed capacity. No surprise it's maxed out and not fun to use anymore. The airport layout itself used to be the smoothest to use I know of globally back then when they operated at the planned numbers. The BER delay made Tegel the main airport at much grown traffic numbers.
If they would invest a bit they could make Tegel a pleasure to use again. Because of BER they didn't for some time.
Tegel's Terminal could be expanded easily: Just put a roof over the inner yard and you'd have space for security and shops forever.

The former airport director said yesterday Tegel should be continued to be used after any BER opening and it would remain profitable then.
Tegel could be Berlin's LaGuardia forever. It would make sense to keep it.
 
bhxalex
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:55 pm

The shed of a terminal used by various airlines for Non-Schengen flights has to be the worst facility of any capital city airport in the developed world. I wasn't expecting a lot, but I was astounded by it when I flew out of TXL 3 months ago. Makes LGA and the old LTN look good. The sooner they sort out the BER mess, the better.
 
Noshow
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:18 pm

You haven't been traveling a lot on low-cost airlines haven't you? The shed is a copy of a shed built at Berlin Schönefeld before.
 
ExpatVet
Posts: 145
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:08 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
ExpatVet wrote:
Thibault973 wrote:

While super practical, TXL has to be the worst airport in "the western world" I've ever flown to and from. No rapid transit, hours to get your luggage after landing and an horrible horrible and crowed layount. The worst.


Oh, I don't know, LTN is a pest hole, and I can't say LGA is a rousing endorsement of aviation...


Ok maybe not THE wort. Let's change that to "the worst main airport". Actually the worst in Europe to me would have to be Budapest low-cost "mini" terminal which really feels more like a slaugther house (but that's off topic).


I'm based in Budapest, and that mini terminal is a step up - it used to be a tent! (No, I'm not joking!)
L101, 733/4/5/8/9, 741/2/3 (never managed 744!), MD 80/2/3/8/90, MD11, DHC8/3/Q4, E170, E195, 757, 77W, 763/4, Travel Air 2000. A300/310, A319/320/321, A333, ATR-72, probably a few others I forget. Passenger, not pilot, alas! BUD based.
 
SFOThinker
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:04 pm

Thank-you, CARST and other posters who have helped me better understand a fascinating monumental screw-up and its ongoing aftermath.
The phenomenal growth of air traffic in Berlin, beyond the planned capacity of BER, seems to me to be a clue that two airports can be easily supported, and the map posted by CARST indicates there is no danger of a second Mirabel or Malpensa. What I don't really know is what is driving that growth. My guess would be tourism and business, including the nascent hi tech sector. Good air connections are important for hi tech growth, as well as other businesses. So if Berlin wants to find a niche in the global hi tech world, it can't strangle its airports on the basis of green extremism. People will locate their venture businesses elsewhere, where key people can easily travel.
A little part of me wishes that the BER terminal be preserved but never used, a monument to remind to future generations about politicians But my uninformed guess is that it will end up torn down and rebuilt, either from scratch with more gates, or using the foundations and rebuilding to the original plan with the old architects and contractors brought back, and the use of hard stands.
 
MHG
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:29 am

raylee67 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
If TXL stays open, BER has no future, even after all the nightmare ends. Berlin does not need two airports. It cannot support two. If TXL stays open and there is no restriction on how it is used, no one would use BER.

BER will become YMX, unless TXL is restricted to serve limited routes, such as restrictions put on LIN, LGA, DAL, HND (initially when NRT opened) and SHA.


Berlin has a population of 3.5m, rising to over 6m in the Berlin/Brandenburg Metropolitan Region, the second largest urban area in the EU after London, London supports 5 airports, Berlin should be able to support 2.


Population itself is not the only factor to consider though. Singapore has a population of 6 million too, but it only needs one airport with three runways. Greater Tokyo Area has a population of 32 million and it only has two airports, with 6 runways in total.

The difference between Berlin and London is that London has a lot of premium business traffic, and it is naturally the trans-Atlantic transit point. While although Berlin is the political centre of Germany (and arguably the implicit political centre of EU), it is not where the businesses are. The financial sector traffic is in FRA, and manufacturing sector traffic mainly in MUC or along the Rhine. Also, at least at this point, Berlin is not a hub for any major airline, and I don't think LH has any plan to dilute its hub operations at FRA and MUC to make BER the 3rd inter-continental transit hub.

If TXL stays open without restrictions, premium traffic will stay there. No one wants to go out of the way to go to a far-away airport. The state-of-the-art (supposingly) BER will then either become a back-up airport to serve airlines which cannot get slots at TXL, or it will become a LCC airport. I am sure that's not the intended purpose of building BER.

Singapore only needs one airport ??? That´s the reason why they just built a new terminal and re-opened XSP for scheduled passenger flights ...
(the fact that flights are not yet operating is related to political rows between Singapore and Malaysia due to problems with XSP´s ILS requiring building height restrictions in Johor Bahru ...)
Tokyo metropolitan area has more than two airports ...

Despite LH does not like to operate from two airports in one city (for economical reasons of course) they certainly would serve both TXL and BER adjusting their services/routes to customer demand.
(as they do e.g. in NYC area by serving both JFK and EWR)

LH will not establish a longhaul hub at BER (since the FRA/MUC tandem works just fine) but certainly consider setting up a true regional hub (to a greater degree compared to what is up and running already)
As soon as BER (its new terminal in particular) is up and running it will offer a premium experience way exceeding that of TXL after a refurbishment could ever do. Thus "full service carriers" will not avoid BER. Ground links to/from BER will be further improved (read faster links) by then and the travelling public will primarily choose their departure airport by convenience.
... and TXL is not more conveniently located for all business travellers as is repeatedly said.
"Airtravel heavy businesses" have moved quite a bit towards the central and eastern part of the city in recent years (Potsdamer Platz, etc.) so both airports are equally far away for those now in terms of travel time.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:51 pm

Without any argumenation the facts are that a BER with the infamous T1 plus the T2 complex on the northern side,, formerly known as SXF,, will not be sufficient to handle the traffic not only of the future. It won't be able to cope with today* s figures.

Furthermore, a single Airport BER has the movements capped to 360.000 p.a. BERlin badly needs a thrd runway.

The answers are on the Hand, Keep TXL open.. Evem the most stubborn politician must meanwhile have relaiued that .. If not he / she is breachin the oath of Office.

As tothe LH CEO, he is responsigle to the shareholders. Thus he needed to make a Statement to Keep TXL open.. Simply because a single BER would be expensive for the Company.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
MHG
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:41 pm

PanHAM wrote:
Without any argumenation the facts are that a BER with the infamous T1 plus the T2 complex on the northern side,, formerly known as SXF,, will not be sufficient to handle the traffic not only of the future. It won't be able to cope with today* s figures.

Furthermore, a single Airport BER has the movements capped to 360.000 p.a. BERlin badly needs a thrd runway.

The answers are on the Hand, Keep TXL open.. Evem the most stubborn politician must meanwhile have relaiued that .. If not he / she is breachin the oath of Office.

As tothe LH CEO, he is responsigle to the shareholders. Thus he needed to make a Statement to Keep TXL open.. Simply because a single BER would be expensive for the Company.

Correct.
Even with a capacity status as is now (incl. the new terminal, of course) BER would already be at its design limit from day one if TXL is not availlable anymore.

Unfortunately those politicians already have proven to ignore facts when they decided to close THF.
They were unwilling to accept the facts and closed THF for ideological reasons.
Economics were not at play despite they stated otherwise.
It´s easy to manipulate demand for an airport if you want to close it. (when you own/operate all three airports in that city as is the case in Berlin ...).
Btw. all promises made for the use of the former airport were fake and the result is still visible at THF to date ...
So, badly needed capacity was destroyed beforehand and now TXL is likely the next desaster killing even more capacity of what is already too little today (remember TXL already runs at 200% of its design capacity - at least 5 days a week ! )
It is an understatement to say these politicians are stubborn.
In my opinion they have already crossed the line of intentionally damaging the local economy.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
787X30
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:07 pm

PanHAM wrote:
...
The answers are on the Hand, Keep TXL open.. Evem the most stubborn politician must meanwhile have relaiued that .. If not he / she is breachin the oath of Office.

As tothe LH CEO, he is responsigle to the shareholders. Thus he needed to make a Statement to Keep TXL open.. Simply because a single BER would be expensive for the Company.

But will Berlin's politicians be stubborn enough not to draw a line from expensive-for-the-carriers to lucrative-for-Berlin?

Thus, ruining the Berlin state treasury is serving what oath you say?

MHG wrote:
... (remember TXL already runs at 200% of its design capacity - at least 5 days a week ! )...

:scratchchin:
 
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CARST
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:18 am

SFOThinker wrote:
What I don't really know is what is driving that growth. My guess would be tourism and business, including the nascent hi tech sector. Good air connections are important for hi tech growth, as well as other businesses. So if Berlin wants to find a niche in the global hi tech world, it can't strangle its airports on the basis of green extremism. People will locate their venture businesses elsewhere, where key people can easily travel.


The growth factors you listed are exactly what's driving the growth for Berlin. I first and foremost would say, driver for growth number 1 are the low prices. Air travel is getting cheaper and cheaper and thus more people can travel. Also travelling (due to prices, availability, more routes, etc.) has become more of a commodity. Especially here in Europe, where distances (and thus again prices) are very low. Espeically for young people it's so normal now to make at least one weekend-trip to some European destionation every month. This doesn't only drive growth here in Berlin, but all over Europe (as well as in many other parts of the world), but it's a factor here, too.

Factor number two is that Berlin is getting "mature" regarding its econimical stance within Germany. Berlin and the east German states (former East German GDR territory) are still way poorer than the states in the former West, but especially Berlin (but also cities like Leipzig and Dresden) are slowly catching up. So while there is no real industry in Berlin, because all industries left Berlin after worldwar 2 towards West Germany (awway from the Russians), as you noted above, Berlin has a lot of hi-techn/IT companies, start-ups, service industries and also more and more headquarters, large company representations, as well as profit and non-profit organisations and agencies setting up camp here, mainly to be close to the federal government of Germany being close by.

Tourism is the third factor and is also growing every year. For a long time you had the feeling that new hotels were built on every corner in the city center. In 2018 Berlin saw over to 13 million tourists, with about 55% arriving by airplane. That's a growth close to 5% year on year. Another 10 million people came to town for congresses and exhibitions, which is a 2.5% growth year on year.


As you pointed out, all this is extremely dependent on air traffic. When AirBerlin went into insolvency in September/October 2017, hotel bookings in Berlin went down 6% immediately for the next four months until EasyJet had fully replaced AirBerlin here and started the operation from TXL in early/mid January 2018. And of course, all that businesses here, but also companies with HQs and organisations with international business are all reliant on working airports and a good network to all major cities in the EU and in the world.


SFOThinker wrote:
A little part of me wishes that the BER terminal be preserved but never used, a monument to remind to future generations about politicians But my uninformed guess is that it will end up torn down and rebuilt, either from scratch with more gates, or using the foundations and rebuilding to the original plan with the old architects and contractors brought back, and the use of hard stands.


A fun idea. Not too bad actually. Would teach some people a lesson... ^^
 
SCQ83
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:32 am

The coming economic collapse in Germany will hit Berlin specially as there is no real economy in the city; it is all air.

I expect both TXL and SXF to lose a few million PAX in the very near future. Many easyJet/Ryanair/Eurowings routes were already quite unsustainable, so the economic crash will cut them. That will take away some pressure from both airports and give some additional time for thinking about new strategies.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:36 am

SFOThinker wrote:
What I don't really know is what is driving that growth. My guess would be tourism and business, including the nascent hi tech sector.


Debt, quantitative easing, stock market and speculation (Berlin real estate bubble). When everything hits the wall, all that "phenomenal growth" will be a "phenomenal collapse".
 
Lewton
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:46 pm

Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:39 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
The coming economic collapse in Germany will hit Berlin specially as there is no real economy in the city; it is all air.

I expect both TXL and SXF to lose a few million PAX in the very near future. Many easyJet/Ryanair/Eurowings routes were already quite unsustainable, so the economic crash will cut them. That will take away some pressure from both airports and give some additional time for thinking about new strategies.

Define collapse please.
From Hamburg with love.
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 549
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Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:43 am

Berlin is not going to collapse. It's hot shit for tourism and has a lot more years of growth in it. It's also a magnet for young creatives in Europe, which will continue to put pressure on real estate and continue to lure tech companies chasing talent.
 
MHG
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

Re: Lufthansa CEO Spohr changes his stance on Berlin, wants TXL to be kept open...

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:41 am

SCQ83 wrote:
SFOThinker wrote:
What I don't really know is what is driving that growth. My guess would be tourism and business, including the nascent hi tech sector.


Debt, quantitative easing, stock market and speculation (Berlin real estate bubble). When everything hits the wall, all that "phenomenal growth" will be a "phenomenal collapse".
SCQ83 wrote:
The coming economic collapse in Germany will hit Berlin specially as there is no real economy in the city; it is all air.

I expect both TXL and SXF to lose a few million PAX in the very near future. Many easyJet/Ryanair/Eurowings routes were already quite unsustainable, so the economic crash will cut them. That will take away some pressure from both airports and give some additional time for thinking about new strategies.

Well, you really don´t know if there will be a "wall" to run against at all.
It´s not likely that everything will be hit by a recession - neither in Berlin nor in the rest of Germany.
I´d rather expect a dent in growth will occur eventually and you can´t predict the severity nor when it´ll happen.
Hope you are aware that economy goes up and down in cycles.

Something I´d wish to happen is that local politicians in Berlin one day wake up from still believing and governing the city like it´s in kind of a bubble - no matter what they do nobody is really held accountable.
(it was like a protected bubble when isolated and surrounded by the GDR ...)

But no matter what happens to the economy - in Berlin in particular - it is unrealistic to expect passenger numbers will plummet by millions in any realistic scenario.
I can see even a further boost for Berlin due to Brexit (with e.g. London being on the loosing end - not dramatically but visible)

Those LCC routes (and those of legacies) that are unsustainable will be given up eventually (like everywhere else) - when the red line is crossed is still the airlines discretion.
Other routes will be tried ...
The city certainly hasn´t reached its peak - it´s not even close to it.
Berlin has lagged far behind in terms of air connectivity (and general economy as well) for a long time and is continously catching up now.
That process is primarily slowed down due to the local political chaos. Unfortunately I don´t see this particular governing problem being solved anytime soon.

Just to clarify:
I do not live in Berlin nor am I related to the city in any way. I do just observe development of the city and its connectivity by all means of (public) transport.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

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