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enilria
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:26 am

Norwegian says not closing PVD station. Says will downsize for Winter 2019-2020 which they do every year.

This is looking more and more like nothing dramatic.

https://www.providencejournal.com/news/ ... en-airport
 
F27500
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:35 am

... AVVIKLING.

This means "liquidation" in Norwegian. Overexpansion and cockiness is what ruined them. Goodbye, Norwegian. Sad to see.
 
737max8
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:54 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
enilria wrote:
It hit the press. This article seems to say Norwegian will exit narrowbody transatlantic service. I’d argue the 787s do worse than the 737s.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019 ... e-and-u-s/


With this and WOW's significant pullback we can see the ULCC TATL bubble has been duly popped. Good for remaining carriers; not good for passengers seeking cheap fares.


I just booked JFK-LIS-VCE on TAP (A330neo) for $211. I think discount TATL airfare is here to stay.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A343 A359 A388
 
rj1385
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:40 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
I assume Norwegian has a crew base at DUB? What with DUB-YHM starting soon and DUB-PVD/SWF seeming to be the only truly viable transatlantic services operated by the 737s from those secondary U.S. airports, it seems far more logical to have one Irish base rather than 2 American bases. While existing services from PVD and SWF are probably safe (for now), the base closures likely indicate that Norwegian sees no opportunities to grow those operations. No surprise there, since Brexit seems to be getting worse - and there just isn't much Norwegian could do from the U.S. with 737s beyond Ireland and the U.K. Ultimately, if South Florida ops are shifted to MIA and FLL abandoned entirely, whilst it has been said that the entire OAK operation may very well end up at SFO, I see no reason for Norwegian to continue serving airports that most Europeans and even many Americans have never heard of. The yields are simply so much better at BOS, EWR and JFK.


I figured that they would look to the Caribbean from SWF and PVD. I would assume that they could fly to the British Overseas Territories with no problem. Or even Bermuda. I assumed that they could then use the 737Max to do more locations from the islands to cities that do not have service.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 am

rj1385 wrote:
I figured that they would look to the Caribbean from SWF and PVD. I would assume that they could fly to the British Overseas Territories with no problem. Or even Bermuda. I assumed that they could then use the 737Max to do more locations from the islands to cities that do not have service.


With respect to the Caribbean, only 3 French territories are "Outermost regions" (OMR) that are legally a part of the European Union: Guadeloupe, Martinique and Saint Martin*. Other Outermost regions where E.U.-U.S. open skies traffic rights apply include the Azores, Canary Islands**, French Guiana*** and Madeira.

* Only the French half of Saint Martin island. The L'Espérance Airport in this realm only has a 3,937 ft/1,200 m runway - hardly sufficient for any kind of jet operations.
** Norwegian just so happens to be closing not one but two bases in this realm, so I highly doubt they're interested in trying any kind of services to the U.S.
*** Norwegian has indeed elected to serve the CAY market, but only from FDF and PTP, not the U.S.

Other Caribbean and North Atlantic territories like Aruba, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Curaçao, Greenland, Sint Maarten (SXM is located here) and Turks and Caicos are "overseas countries and territories" (OCT) that are *NOT* part of the E.U. Of course, even if the aforementioned British territories were in the E.U. they may very well be leaving it soon anyways! Given how contentious Norwegian has been with U.S. carriers in the first place, you can probably forget about the airline getting fifth freedom rights between the U.S. and any of these places. I certainly can't imagine a place like Bermuda jeopardizing its longstanding relationships with multiple U.S. carriers just to let Norwegian gain local/onward traffic rights, either...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
MountainFlyer
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:30 am

Boof02671 wrote:
You can’t shrink to profitability.

Base closings are a foreshadow.


Try telling Steve Jobs that circa 1997.
SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
 
toltommy
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:30 am

Boof02671 wrote:
I do believe the US based are Norwegian Employees and are unionized with a contract.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 11dc711a3a


Did you read the article? Not only does it state they are contracted through an affiliate, it names the affiliate!
A300/A310/A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/707/712/727/732/733/734/735/738/739/752/753/762/763/764/772/789/DC8/DC9-10/30/40/50/MD81/83/87/88/90/L1011-/250/500/CRJ200/440/700/900/EMB135/140/145/170/175/190/328Jet/F70/SF3/BE1/J31
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:06 am

holcakker wrote:
Don't see Mallorca suffering: 29 million pax (+4%) in 2018, even December was +21% compared to 2017.
Off season is getting stronger and stronger while the season is suffering from mass tourism if anything.


The devil is in the details.

PAX 2018 - 2019

UK: 5.66 million VS 5.43 million
Switzerland: 1.13 million VS 1.03 million

So major markets are shrinking (namely the UK) or at plateau (Italy, Netherlands)

Where the growth comes from:

Germany: 9.38 VS 9.86 million. The Laudamotion effect has certainly boosted those numbers.
Spain: 6.38 VS 7.01 million.

https://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2018/12 ... b4780.html

The number of German tourists fell by 207k in 2018, while British 60k. Despite the air traffic numbers to Germany growing. With 9.99 EUR fares all summer long, probably more Germans with 2nd homes in Mallorca are taking more weekends, more Germans are taking more shorter breaks in Mallorca (instead of a typical 1-week package) and even more Mallorcans are travelling to Germany for tourism.

I suspect in Barcelona the effect is relatively similar. Numbers hit record boosted by cheap prices (local demand growing) yet tourism numbers are falling.

Certainly all of this is unsustainable in the medium term.
 
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spinkid
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:00 am

The only other option I can think of is if they move SWF and PVD to Dreamliner flights.
SWF is my hometown airport. I was glad I got the chance to take them when I did. I would hate to see them go.
 
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AAR
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:27 am

Mortyman - I have confidential papers and even if NAS sell planes and even if they try to do savings for 2billion NOK there will still be a huge losses in 2019 and 2020
 
oslmgm
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:03 am

F27500 wrote:
... AVVIKLING.

This means "liquidation" in Norwegian. Overexpansion and cockiness is what ruined them. Goodbye, Norwegian. Sad to see.


No, it does not (usually) mean "liquidation" in Norwegian. The meaning of the word "avvikling" is very dependent on context. "Wind down" is probably the closest translation. (Avvikling is two words put together; av+vikling, literally "off+winding".) It could mean closing down a company, or a route or anything really. It can even mean to carry out something.

I'm not sure where you picked up the word, but in the case of Norwegian Air I've only seen it used about routes/bases, meaning "closing down some routes/bases".
 
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seahawk
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:22 am

a350lover wrote:
In a briefly review to the network of those Spanish bases that will be shut down, we can clearly see Germany is the market which without doubt will see the drop of routes. Taking into account the routes which link PMI/LPA/TFS to cities where Norwegian has not a base, from these 3 airports we get the following:

From Palma (PMI)
-MUC
-DUS
-AAL

From Gran Canaria (LPA)
-MUC
-DUS
-HAM
-CGN
-SXF
-AAL

From Tenerife:
-FCO
-CGN
-HAM
-SXF
-DUS
-MUC
-BIO

Not having a base doesn't necessarily have to mean they will 100% discontinue the route. They may always want to consider layovers, but, most of the routes aren't daily so I'd assume these are the ones which will be going.


It is the Eurowings factor. They hoped on getting the AB traffic, but they did not. And to be honest it is not a big surprise as they were not cheaper than EW or FR but often offered really unattractive departure times. Like DUS-ALC with a departure at 20:25 and an arrival at 23:15 in ALC. Same with TFS arrival at 23:00 in TFS. Now if you book it with a holiday (like many do) you loose one day compared to the competition as the return flight leaves TFS at 13:00. The Norwegians flights were avoided by most customers due to the uncomfortable flight times.

Condor or EW depart DUS at ~06:00 and the return flight departs TFS around 12:00.
 
Someone83
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:19 am

Announced route cuts and reduction so far

To be closed:
FCO-GOT
FCO-TLV
FCO-TFS
FCO-KEF

Known frequencies reduction:
PMI-CPH - from 14x to 13x weekly
PMI-OSL - from 9x to 8x weekly
PMI-DUS - from 9x to 7x weekly
PMI-HEL - from 7x to 6x weekly
FCO-HEL - from 6x to 4x weekly
TFS-MAD -from 9x to 7x weekly

Suprised PMI-DUS stays, and not sure how it will be operated. The other routes with reduction will just be operated from another base. Note that the bases here being closed is rather small
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:53 am

AMS pilot base also closing
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:14 am

SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
With this and WOW's significant pullback we can see the ULCC TATL bubble has been duly popped. Good for remaining carriers; not good for passengers seeking cheap fares.


And Primera Air going bankrupt.


I really don't think that counts as a "bubble" where the whole idea never even looked like it was working out.

Also, Norwegian, is this about cutting costs or is this because they need to start selling aircraft because they are buried too deep in debt?
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:29 am

Someone83 wrote:
FCO-KEF


So no more Rome-Iceland flights. This routes was previously flown by Vueling, and also chopped.

The only Iceland-Italy routes are KEF-MXP seasonal on Icelandair and WOW.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:44 am

Many of those are Vueling bases or markets, aren't they? Could it be related to the IAG interest in taking over Norwegian, or is it just complete random?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am

MountainFlyer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
You can’t shrink to profitability.

Base closings are a foreshadow.


Try telling Steve Jobs that circa 1997.

Apples to Oranges.

I’ve lived through several mergers and two bankruptcies in the airlines.

You can’t shrink to profitability.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:01 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Many of those are Vueling bases or markets, aren't they? Could it be related to the IAG interest in taking over Norwegian, or is it just complete random?


There is ZERO overlapping between VUELING and NORGEWIAN out of PMI.
They did compete on PMI-BIO and PMI-BCN and Norwegian lost out.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:04 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
MountainFlyer wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
You can’t shrink to profitability.

Base closings are a foreshadow.


Try telling Steve Jobs that circa 1997.

Apples to Oranges.

I’ve lived through several mergers and two bankruptcies in the airlines.

You can’t shrink to profitability.


You can if management is so bad at picking routes that trip revenue exceeds variable cost. Your experience with carriers doesn't give you a formal education in economics or finance.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:23 pm

Surprised about pmi but not the rest . Slots very valuable in pmi . Just shows how over expansion can be dangerous . It worked for Ryanair and easy but have caused demise of many carriers . Wow and Norwegian being hit hard . Can’t help but think that if they had stuck to short haul / Nordic holiday lh routes they would have done ok .
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:39 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
PAX 2018 - 2019

UK: 5.66 million VS 5.43 million
Switzerland: 1.13 million VS 1.03 million

So major markets are shrinking (namely the UK) or at plateau (Italy, Netherlands)

Where the growth comes from:

Germany: 9.38 VS 9.86 million. The Laudamotion effect has certainly boosted those numbers.
Spain: 6.38 VS 7.01 million.

https://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2018/12 ... b4780.html

The number of German tourists fell by 207k in 2018, while British 60k. Despite the air traffic numbers to Germany growing. With 9.99 EUR fares all summer long, probably more Germans with 2nd homes in Mallorca are taking more weekends, more Germans are taking more shorter breaks in Mallorca (instead of a typical 1-week package) and even more Mallorcans are travelling to Germany for tourism.

I suspect in Barcelona the effect is relatively similar. Numbers hit record boosted by cheap prices (local demand growing) yet tourism numbers are falling.

Certainly all of this is unsustainable in the medium term.


How much of the drop in British traffic last summer was down to the UK having a very hot June/July with weeks of sunshine? It was in the news in early-July that a lot of the package holiday companies were selling last minute holidays at the start of the school summer holiday period for ridiculously cheap prices per person. There may well be other factors at play (e.g. weak £ due to Brexit, England's long run in the World Cup), but certainly if I was in the market for a last-minute holiday last June/July the weather would have played a big part in the decision besides wanting a change of scenery for a short while.

For what it's worth, we booked a last minute holiday to Majorca last September with 2 weeks notice and we timed it right as we missed Storms Ali and Bronagh. Don't get me wrong, I love travelling, but if one of the motives is to go to sunnier climes I find it galling if it's nice at home whilst away given that normally the UK doesn't get many nice days/weeks and particularly where the weather is comparable to the Mediterranean. I accept though these things can't be predicted if booking well ahead in advance.

Jouhou wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
With this and WOW's significant pullback we can see the ULCC TATL bubble has been duly popped. Good for remaining carriers; not good for passengers seeking cheap fares.


And Primera Air going bankrupt.


I really don't think that counts as a "bubble" where the whole idea never even looked like it was working out.

Also, Norwegian, is this about cutting costs or is this because they need to start selling aircraft because they are buried too deep in debt?


I'd go one step further and suggest it was more of an experiment that a number of other airlines latched on to and have had their fingers burnt. Primera being the most notable one and the recent deep cuts at WOW Air. If it was a bubble, I'd say there would have been a lot more routes by now that would have been axed.

Additionally, I also maintain there's a reason why Ryanair haven't branched out into TATL operations despite O'Leary bringing it up once in a while (which hasn't been lately) and Jet2's TATL operations currently limited to Christmas break trips to EWR. Primera's demise and the cutbacks at WOW Air and now Norwegian are probably enough reasons for them to not join the party full time.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
MountainFlyer wrote:

Try telling Steve Jobs that circa 1997.

Apples to Oranges.

I’ve lived through several mergers and two bankruptcies in the airlines.

You can’t shrink to profitability.


You can if management is so bad at picking routes that trip revenue exceeds variable cost. Your experience with carriers doesn't give you a formal education in economics or finance.

You can’t in the US.

DL, AA, US, NW and UA all tried to shrink to profitability, didn’t work.

Didn’t work for PA, EA, TW and many others.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:02 pm

Airlines are a capital asset intensive industry. It's very hard to shrink to profitability because of the capital assets involved. Planes, ground equipment, operations centers, etc. These assets have fixed costs tied to them, particularly debt service costs. Possibly if an airline can return enough a/c and sell off enough non air assets. There's also all the people, some of which become unnecessary so the airline has to quickly and effectively par down staffing.

As an airline begins to cut routes it loses customers. An airline like Norwegian given its fare structure needs a butt in every seat. Low load factors will quickly become the death of any airline but an ULCC in particular.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:21 pm

Boeing74741R wrote:
How much of the drop in British traffic last summer was down to the UK having a very hot June/July with weeks of sunshine? It was in the news in early-July that a lot of the package holiday companies were selling last minute holidays at the start of the school summer holiday period for ridiculously cheap prices per person. There may well be other factors at play (e.g. weak £ due to Brexit, England's long run in the World Cup), but certainly if I was in the market for a last-minute holiday last June/July the weather would have played a big part in the decision besides wanting a change of scenery for a short while.

For what it's worth, we booked a last minute holiday to Majorca last September with 2 weeks notice and we timed it right as we missed Storms Ali and Bronagh. Don't get me wrong, I love travelling, but if one of the motives is to go to sunnier climes I find it galling if it's nice at home whilst away given that normally the UK doesn't get many nice days/weeks and particularly where the weather is comparable to the Mediterranean. I accept though these things can't be predicted if booking well ahead in advance..


Then you should compare with UK to Greece, Croatia or Turkey. I suspect those markets were up.

Mallorca - Germany is a different animal. With almost 10 million PAX (!!!!), Mallorca - Germany is more than a holiday market. You could almost consider PMI a domestic flight from Germany.
 
IADCA
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:34 pm

rbavfan wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I am not overly surprised.

Laudamotion (Ryanair) has opened tons of routes from Germany to Mallorca (main market). And PMI suffers from the recovery of Turkey.

Canarias a winter destination has also increasing competition from Morocco, Tunisia, Cabo Verde or Egypt.


Why does PMI in Spain suffer from Turkeys recovery.


I don't know whether it's supported by the facts, but the theory is that Turkish destinations like DLM and AYT compete with PMI (as well as some destinations elsewhere in Spain, Greece, Cyprus, and even on the African side of the Mediterranean) for the same customers - Northern Europeans seeking sunshine. Given the sheer size of the market and number of destinations, I'm not sure it works out, but in theory if you remove supply from one supplier (or make its products much less desirable), alternate suppliers benefit.
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:49 pm

IADCA wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
I am not overly surprised.

Laudamotion (Ryanair) has opened tons of routes from Germany to Mallorca (main market). And PMI suffers from the recovery of Turkey.

Canarias a winter destination has also increasing competition from Morocco, Tunisia, Cabo Verde or Egypt.


Why does PMI in Spain suffer from Turkeys recovery.


I don't know whether it's supported by the facts, but the theory is that Turkish destinations like DLM and AYT compete with PMI (as well as some destinations elsewhere in Spain, Greece, Cyprus, and even on the African side of the Mediterranean) for the same customers - Northern Europeans seeking sunshine. Given the sheer size of the market and number of destinations, I'm not sure it works out, but in theory if you remove supply from one supplier (or make its products much less desirable), alternate suppliers benefit.


I'm sorry, but you can't compare DLM and AYT with Mallorca. On paper, yes, they are sunny places in the Mediterranean. In practice, Mallorca's restaurants, cafes, nightlife, boutique hotels, mountains, landscape, art galleries, shopping and beautiful people are unbeatable.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:54 pm

IADCA wrote:
I don't know whether it's supported by the facts, but the theory is that Turkish destinations like DLM and AYT compete with PMI (as well as some destinations elsewhere in Spain, Greece, Cyprus, and even on the African side of the Mediterranean) for the same customers - Northern Europeans seeking sunshine. Given the sheer size of the market and number of destinations, I'm not sure it works out, but in theory if you remove supply from one supplier (or make its products much less desirable), alternate suppliers benefit.


Indeed. You just need to take a look at the big beach airports in 2018:

http://www.aena.es/csee/ccurl/463/358/1 ... e_2018.pdf

PALMA DE MALLORCA +4,0%
MALAGA-COSTA DEL SOL +2,1%
ALICANTE-ELCHE +4,0%
GRAN CANARIA +3,7%
TENERIFE-SUR -2,5%
IBIZA +2,5%
LANZAROTE -0,8%
FUERTEVENTURA +1,2%
TENERIFE-NORTE +16,7%
MENORCA +0,2%


Some flat or decreasing. And that is despite the growth in domestic passengers, specially since the Spanish government increased the discount for Island residents from 50 to 75%, which has produced a mini boom in domestic travel from and intra-islands.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:22 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Germany: 9.38 VS 9.86 million. The Laudamotion effect has certainly boosted those numbers.
Spain: 6.38 VS 7.01 million.

https://www.elmundo.es/baleares/2018/12 ... b4780.html

The number of German tourists fell by 207k in 2018, while British 60k. Despite the air traffic numbers to Germany growing. With 9.99 EUR fares all summer long, probably more Germans with 2nd homes in Mallorca are taking more weekends, more Germans are taking more shorter breaks in Mallorca (instead of a typical 1-week package) and even more Mallorcans are travelling to Germany for tourism.

I suspect in Barcelona the effect is relatively similar. Numbers hit record boosted by cheap prices (local demand growing) yet tourism numbers are falling.

Certainly all of this is unsustainable in the medium term.


You seem to blalantly forget the fact that P's #1 airline (by a wide margin), Air Berlin went bust in late 2017. So for Germany's number to be up is actually quiet a feat, considering AB flew to about every airfield there from PMI, including a whooping 9 flight daily in summer to DUS.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:51 pm

So, it's day 2. My opinion is that what we have is an initiative to improve financial performance of the Norwegian network through cost cutting and mostly typical route adjustments.

This is not a near shutdown level crisis like we have seen from WOW at this point. The route changes appear to be for October 2019 which is 9 months away....hardly an emergency short term do or die situation. Nevertheless, I don't doubt that cost cutting is important to the company's survival.
 
IADCA
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:55 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
IADCA wrote:
rbavfan wrote:

Why does PMI in Spain suffer from Turkeys recovery.


I don't know whether it's supported by the facts, but the theory is that Turkish destinations like DLM and AYT compete with PMI (as well as some destinations elsewhere in Spain, Greece, Cyprus, and even on the African side of the Mediterranean) for the same customers - Northern Europeans seeking sunshine. Given the sheer size of the market and number of destinations, I'm not sure it works out, but in theory if you remove supply from one supplier (or make its products much less desirable), alternate suppliers benefit.


I'm sorry, but you can't compare DLM and AYT with Mallorca. On paper, yes, they are sunny places in the Mediterranean. In practice, Mallorca's restaurants, cafes, nightlife, boutique hotels, mountains, landscape, art galleries, shopping and beautiful people are unbeatable.


I'm not saying they're equivalent, but there are definitely people who choose between Spain and Turkey for vacations. As I hinted above, I don't agree with the theory (at least as it relates to PMI), but it's hard to argue that package-tourist resorts in Spain and Turkey don't compete with one another.
 
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SQ789
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:57 pm

dcajet wrote:
a350lover wrote:
According to internal communication from the company, the 737s bases of those bases will be discontinue from Apr19.

That affects the short-haul operations mainly of Spain and Italy smallest bases. Also long-haul ops from the 737s bases in USA.

No redundancies expected, with internal mobility offered on to ARN/OSL or 787 mainly.

Dreamliner operations wont't be affected, although they won't base pilots in AMS, FLL and BKK.


Are they closing the pilots & cabin crew bases and reducing flying as well? Or just the former?

Looks like they are reducing flights.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
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AAR
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:05 pm

Yes, we forecast heavy losses in 2019 and 2020, even with effects of the Focus 2019 cost cutting program. NAS owns 66 of the +160 aircraft it operates now. NAS could sell these aircraft. The older aircraft would likely only provide cash, not an equity gain, based on recent sale of aircraft 4-6 yrs old. However, we should expect cash in and equity gain on new aircraft. And as you pointed out, there are challenges in selling aircraft orders as Airbus and Boeing need to give their consent on this.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:09 pm

AAR wrote:
Yes, we forecast heavy losses in 2019 and 2020, even with effects of the Focus 2019 cost cutting program. NAS owns 66 of the +160 aircraft it operates now. NAS could sell these aircraft. The older aircraft would likely only provide cash, not an equity gain, based on recent sale of aircraft 4-6 yrs old. However, we should expect cash in and equity gain on new aircraft. And as you pointed out, there are challenges in selling aircraft orders as Airbus and Boeing need to give their consent on this.

I'm surprised any of them provide an equity gain. It is pretty typical to overfinance aircraft so they are financed at list price rather than FMV. Then when you sell them you can actually be in the hole.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:33 pm

They gain over 60 million$ cash when they sold 5 leased a320 couple months ago. Equity efect was also positive, but not much I think.
Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA - Sale of five A320neo aircraft
Arctic Aviation Assets, a subsidiary of Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA ("the Company"), has signed an agreement for sale of five Airbus 320neo aircraft. The aircraft are currently leased out and thus not operated by the Company. Delivery will take place during the fourth quarter of 2018. The transaction is expected to increase the Company's liquidity by USD 62 million after repayment of debt and have a positive equity effect. Sale proceeds will be used to repay debt and to increase the Company´s liquidity.

https://newsweb.oslobors.no/message/462677
 
Boof02671
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:07 pm

You can’t sell something you lease.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:16 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You can’t sell something you lease.

Norwegian owned those neos, those was leased out to HK Express.
 
armchairceonr1
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:31 pm

Norwegian is also deferring their A321LR deliveries. According their investor presentation from last week they not take any A321LRs this year. Previously they was going to take four. I assume they cut also other fleet, now their fleet plan still shows +13 (5 787's) net for 2019.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:29 pm

Yes the airline can sell a/c for cash but if there's a leaseback they will then have lease payments. However, if Norwegian can't produce a profitable airline out of asset sales ultimately it's heading out of business. The long haul ULCC theme just doesn't seem to work, at least here in the US. Norwegian is moving into South America, we'll see how that performs. Possibly the airline can remake its self into an inter European ULCC.
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:51 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Possibly the airline can remake its self into an inter European ULCC.

That is already the vast majority of the airline. Only about 10% of departures are Transatlantic.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:57 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Possibly the airline can remake its self into an inter European ULCC.


Very doubtful since most of the European market is already saturated with LCCs. Ryanair, EasyJet, Wizzair, etc. Out of those, Norwegian is never the cheapest. The only part of Europe that's more or less left untouched by the other LCCs is Scandinavia. Not surprisingly, that's the home market for Norwegian. That's where their strength lies. The rest of Europe is good for destinations, but not for bases. Any base outside Scandinavia would mean going up to Ryanair, EasyJet, etc. That's a battle that Norwegian can never win.
 
Eirules
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 pm

I’ve heard the DUB crew base is also closing despite reports to the contrary. Any confirmation of this?
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RL757PVD
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Eirules wrote:
I’ve heard the DUB crew base is also closing despite reports to the contrary. Any confirmation of this?


I've heard they are growing DUB by 60%
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eidvm
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:36 pm

Eirules wrote:
I’ve heard the DUB crew base is also closing despite reports to the contrary. Any confirmation of this?


I’ve seen the internal/union memo which is what I guess you’re referencing? It announces Dublin shrinking from 6->1 based aircraft and the resulting redundancies amongst pilots and cabin crew.

I imagine this in combination with the closure of the SWF and PVD crew bases means an end to Norwegians narrowbody transatlantic experiment?
 
RL757PVD
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:58 pm

eidvm wrote:
Eirules wrote:
I’ve heard the DUB crew base is also closing despite reports to the contrary. Any confirmation of this?


I’ve seen the internal/union memo which is what I guess you’re referencing? It announces Dublin shrinking from 6->1 based aircraft and the resulting redundancies amongst pilots and cabin crew.

I imagine this in combination with the closure of the SWF and PVD crew bases means an end to Norwegians narrowbody transatlantic experiment?


SWF and PVD will be operated by DUB crews. A Crew base for a single based 737 or even two makes zero sense.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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enilria
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:08 pm

eidvm wrote:
Eirules wrote:
I’ve heard the DUB crew base is also closing despite reports to the contrary. Any confirmation of this?


I’ve seen the internal/union memo which is what I guess you’re referencing? It announces Dublin shrinking from 6->1 based aircraft and the resulting redundancies amongst pilots and cabin crew.

I imagine this in combination with the closure of the SWF and PVD crew bases means an end to Norwegians narrowbody transatlantic experiment?

A spokesperson from Norwegian said no routes to/from Ireland would be dropped as a result of this announcement, so I'm not clear on what this 6>1 means.
 
PVD757
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:50 pm

Maybe they will base the MAX crews and aircraft in Scandinavia and turn DUB into a mini hub?

ARN, CPH, OSL-DUB-PVD, SWF, YHM and reverse. I think there is enough crew time to do this one way in a crew day? It would also provide more intraline connections if it was banked. Just thinking out loud.
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:36 pm

PVD757 wrote:
Maybe they will base the MAX crews and aircraft in Scandinavia and turn DUB into a mini hub?

ARN, CPH, OSL-DUB-PVD, SWF, YHM and reverse. I think there is enough crew time to do this one way in a crew day? It would also provide more intraline connections if it was banked. Just thinking out loud.


At the moment, Scandinavian bases operate under the NAX AOC (Norwegian Air Shuttle), whereas Ireland operates under NAI (Norwegian Air International). That would mean reorganizing the AOCs for the TATL operation, which is another way Norwegian is exploring for cutting costs. I remember to express here my thoughts about whether the creation of NAI, NUK, NAS, NSW, for a very different reason, truly needed for Argentina NAA didn't help much at optimizing the crews, planes and paperwork needed, but who knows?
 
mcdu
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:51 pm

What happens to the OSM employees? Are they just out of jobs?
 
a350lover
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Re: Norwegian to close 737s bases in PMI/TFS/LPA/FCO/PVD/SWF

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:02 pm

mcdu wrote:
What happens to the OSM employees? Are they just out of jobs?


No redundancies desired by the airline.

Short haul pilots based in PMI, TFS, LPA and FCO - will be offered transfers to short haul MAD, ARN or OSL.
Short haul FAs based in PMI, TFS, LPA and FCO - will be offered positions in the 787 operation (doesn't mention if in BCN/FCO or anywhere else). These are the most affected in my opinion. Those bases congregate a large amount of very senior crews (not internal seniority in Norwegian, but very experienced people in their 50s, many from Spanair). The job routine of being in a short haul base like PMI, doing daily turnarounds, no standbys calls, flying two sectors per day... has nothing in common with 6-8-10-day trips done at the 787 fleet.

I don't have any info regarding the colleagues from PVD and SWF. Probably they could either join LAX or JFK 787s bases.

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