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NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:44 pm

Recent news regarding the capabilities of the A22X reveal greater urgency for Boeing to have better products in the NB market.

In a different lifetime, Boeing successfully designed and launched the 757 and 767 in tandem. In cooperation with Embraer, could they do it again? A tandem development of NSA and NMA, in time for new engine tech to arrive by 2025-2030, to create two new product lines spanning from the E2 to a MOM product? All based on CFRP designs?

Why or why not?
 
musman9853
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:02 pm

the max has what, 5k orders right now? there's no immediate pressure to build an nsa. better to put all the energy and time to getting the 777x and 797 out to customers on time. once that's done, you can take the tech you developed for nma and put them in nsa, but that's probably at least a decade away
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AvObserver
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:12 pm

No real urgency to immediately press ahead with a 737 replacement despite its acknowledged lack of further growth capability. The NMA will be a $15 billion program that will demand big resources while Boeing tweaks and PIPs other product lines. The Transonic Truss Braced Transport concept recently shown could be a worthy 737 replacement but will need years of further research and refinement before it's ready for a full scale development program. The MAX is selling well enough that its backlog will remain healthy for years to come, even though it's losing ground to the A321 NEO at the top end and may begin to lose at the bottom end with A220 variants. The 737 replacement NSA will be top priority after the NMA but I don't see a need for a tandem development effort like the 757/767 had.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:27 pm

AvObserver wrote:
The NMA will be a $15 billion program that will demand big resources while Boeing tweaks and PIPs other product lines.

And thus, Airbus is taking a wait and see stance..... :spin:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ro-455136/
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OA940
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:38 pm

They should focus on the MoM before they lose any more major orders when there's clearly a humonngus base for it.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:48 pm

The NMA is probably a dress rehearsal for the NSA. The smaller NMA will debut, followed by the larger some 2 years after the first enters service so things can be fine tuned. A 3rd NMA, being a double stretch high capacity shorter range plane could be in the works, what the 787-3 should have been. The first NSA will be a 6 across long range model using the NMA wing and engines.

The NSA needs to be 'above' the Max, either with pax and or range in order to keep the Max relevant, in particular the -8. It would take 5 years or more to get NSA production from 10 to 60 per month, and the Max line will have probably dropped to 20 per month by that point. If the NSA commands a premium price initially that will help control the transition.
 
2175301
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:14 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
The NMA is probably a dress rehearsal for the NSA. The smaller NMA will debut, followed by the larger some 2 years after the first enters service so things can be fine tuned. A 3rd NMA, being a double stretch high capacity shorter range plane could be in the works, what the 787-3 should have been. The first NSA will be a 6 across long range model using the NMA wing and engines.



Might I ask your source for the 6 across and the fact that the smallest one will be first?

That is not what the general information sources seem to indicate... as they indicate a 2 isle aircraft for the NMA; and 6 across would be a huge waste for a 2 isle aircraft unless it was all luxury seating.

I also cannot imagine that the NSA will use the same wings and engines as the NMA...

Have a great day,
 
trav777
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:22 am

musman9853 wrote:
the max has what, 5k orders right now? there's no immediate pressure to build an nsa. better to put all the energy and time to getting the 777x and 797 out to customers on time. once that's done, you can take the tech you developed for nma and put them in nsa, but that's probably at least a decade away


yeah the max sold better than I thought it would for such a warmed-over stopgap.

But I think they should go ahead strategically in NB...aim right at the competition's throat. They are on the cusp of total dominance in WBs, why not push the competition to the side in NBs too? Force them to play catch up and react.

A MoM plane isn't going to be produced by anyone until boeing does it anyway...I just wonder how many units there really are in this market space and at what profit point. MAX bailed them out of a fire, why not be the ones holding the match next time?
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:28 am

I suspect that Boeing will want to hit the ground running a lot more than 10 a month at least very early on*. The NMA could well be testing manufacturing fast as well as doing it cheap.

* it might even make sense to throw a dozen or so frames away working for a rapid build up.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:36 am

AvObserver wrote:
No real urgency to immediately press ahead with a 737 replacement despite its acknowledged lack of further growth capability. The NMA will be a $15 billion program that will demand big resources while Boeing tweaks and PIPs other product lines. The Transonic Truss Braced Transport concept recently shown could be a worthy 737 replacement but will need years of further research and refinement before it's ready for a full scale development program. The MAX is selling well enough that its backlog will remain healthy for years to come, even though it's losing ground to the A321 NEO at the top end and may begin to lose at the bottom end with A220 variants. The 737 replacement NSA will be top priority after the NMA but I don't see a need for a tandem development effort like the 757/767 had.


The 737MAX outsold the A320neo family last year. It isn’t losing ground since it’s sales equaled the combined A320neo and A220 sales numbers.

The NMA offers something new that will take orders from the 737-10, A321, A330neo and 787.

I agree that building in tandem is not a priority. Building an NSA alongside the 737MAX with its 4,000+ order backlog that is growing seems like a very strange thing to do, which only pleases the people who don’t like the 737MAX.
 
flyguy84
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:37 am

They don’t need to develop a small narrow body. E190/E195....
SFO
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:43 am

I think the NSA could be a slightly larger version of the E195
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:59 am

2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The NMA is probably a dress rehearsal for the NSA. The smaller NMA will debut, followed by the larger some 2 years after the first enters service so things can be fine tuned. A 3rd NMA, being a double stretch high capacity shorter range plane could be in the works, what the 787-3 should have been. The first NSA will be a 6 across long range model using the NMA wing and engines.



Might I ask your source for the 6 across and the fact that the smallest one will be first?

That is not what the general information sources seem to indicate... as they indicate a 2 isle aircraft for the NMA; and 6 across would be a huge waste for a 2 isle aircraft unless it was all luxury seating.

I also cannot imagine that the NSA will use the same wings and engines as the NMA...

Have a great day,


The info on the NMA that Jon Ostrower has previously noted as I believe the -6 and -7 as a 7ab dual aisle. Boeing on both the 787 and the Max introduced the -8 version before the -9 and it would make sense to do this with the MOM. But really, either could be first but usually the lower thrust variant is done so if the engines under perform it is easier addressed.

I was indicating that on the NSA it would be a great model to have a 6 abreast NARROW BODY (Not 797 WB!) with the MOM wing. Yes it is a big wing and 50% more thrust ( 50 k lbf vs 33 k) but it could almost be a 6,000 mile range hub buster, far above the current Max capabilities. The next NSA model would have the NSA normal wing and engines. I have no information on the NSA model thoughts, other than I think it would be business suicide to drop right on the Max -8 territory until the Max orders are near the end. A side reason I like the NMA wing on a NB is that it would be a killer freighter also and possible P-8 follow on frame.
 
2175301
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:57 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
I was indicating that on the NSA it would be a great model to have a 6 abreast NARROW BODY (Not 797 WB!) with the MOM wing. Yes it is a big wing and 50% more thrust ( 50 k lbf vs 33 k) but it could almost be a 6,000 mile range hub buster, far above the current Max capabilities. The next NSA model would have the NSA normal wing and engines. I have no information on the NSA model thoughts, other than I think it would be business suicide to drop right on the Max -8 territory until the Max orders are near the end. A side reason I like the NMA wing on a NB is that it would be a killer freighter also and possible P-8 follow on frame.


It is my understanding that the NMA is designed to fit into the 767 wingspan box (767 wingspan about 156 ft / 47.6 m Code E gate); which is larger than a 737 wingspan box (737-8max wingspan about 118 ft, 36 m Code D gate). Airports are filled with Code D gates - and the NSA will need to fit into those. A wing designed (even with folding wingtips) to fit into a Code E (767 size gate) will not be part of the replacement for the 737, in my opinion as it would not be suitable for most airlines flying 737 sized aircraft today.

Also, the overall NSA market size is likely 3 to 5 times the number of aircraft than for the NMA. Boeing will certainly design a wing specific to the aircraft - and not put on a wider and heaver than needed wing from the NMA (should it be built).

As for engines... The NSA aircraft will likely need less thrust - and it will kill the efficiency in several ways to put on oversized engines. Again, due to market size I am sure that adequate engines will be designed at the appropriate thrust levels for the various NSA models.

Think it through. The NMA will be its own aircraft (should it be built; which I believe is most likely). It will be true that a lot of the technology developed or refined for the NMA will end up on the NSA, when it is developed.

Have a great day,
 
Tn55337
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:21 pm

I don't think they will do them at the same time. I do think the NSA will come very soon after the NMA.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:30 pm

There is a lot more going into a new airliner than there was in the late 70s. I doubt very much that Boeing has the resources to do two completely new aircraft at the same time now. Look at the box they were in trying to do the 787 and 748 at the same time. And while the 737 replacement is highly desirable, as long as the MAX is selling well it is not essential. But the 737 is losing out on the top end, which makes the NMA necessary. Boeing would like to wait on the NSA until they can come up with something that will force Airbus to follow suit. They don’t have it yet.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:55 pm

2175301 wrote:
It is my understanding that the NMA is designed to fit into the 767 wingspan box (767 wingspan about 156 ft / 47.6 m Code E gate); which is larger than a 737 wingspan box (737-8max wingspan about 118 ft, 36 m Code D gate). Airports are filled with Code D gates - and the NSA will need to fit into those. A wing designed (even with folding wingtips) to fit into a Code E (767 size gate) will not be part of the replacement for the 737, in my opinion as it would not be suitable for most airlines flying 737 sized aircraft today.

Also, the overall NSA market size is likely 3 to 5 times the number of aircraft than for the NMA. Boeing will certainly design a wing specific to the aircraft - and not put on a wider and heaver than needed wing from the NMA (should it be built).

As for engines... The NSA aircraft will likely need less thrust - and it will kill the efficiency in several ways to put on oversized engines. Again, due to market size I am sure that adequate engines will be designed at the appropriate thrust levels for the various NSA models.

Think it through. The NMA will be its own aircraft (should it be built; which I believe is most likely). It will be true that a lot of the technology developed or refined for the NMA will end up on the NSA, when it is developed.

In the end, 757 and 767 did not have the same engines or the same wings, yet did have similar systems and shared type ratings. I think the same will be true of NMA+NSA.

I think the strong sales of MAX and the need for next generation engine tech pushes the NSA into the late 2020s window.

By then, who knows what may happen.

As one poster here likes to point out, maybe by then Boeing and GE will merge and maybe Airbus and RR will merge, and we'll have an even more intense duopoly.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:10 pm

travelhound wrote:
I think the NSA could be a slightly larger version of the E195


Nope. Forget E195.

Something tells me that THIS is Boeing's NSA:

Image

Apply this to anything that's 2-class 200-passenger capacity and less - and you have a winner. Whatever percentage of Embraer Boeing bought would be an ideal risk-sharing partner for that, while leaving 100% of NMA in-house.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
bigjku
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
2175301 wrote:
It is my understanding that the NMA is designed to fit into the 767 wingspan box (767 wingspan about 156 ft / 47.6 m Code E gate); which is larger than a 737 wingspan box (737-8max wingspan about 118 ft, 36 m Code D gate). Airports are filled with Code D gates - and the NSA will need to fit into those. A wing designed (even with folding wingtips) to fit into a Code E (767 size gate) will not be part of the replacement for the 737, in my opinion as it would not be suitable for most airlines flying 737 sized aircraft today.

Also, the overall NSA market size is likely 3 to 5 times the number of aircraft than for the NMA. Boeing will certainly design a wing specific to the aircraft - and not put on a wider and heaver than needed wing from the NMA (should it be built).

As for engines... The NSA aircraft will likely need less thrust - and it will kill the efficiency in several ways to put on oversized engines. Again, due to market size I am sure that adequate engines will be designed at the appropriate thrust levels for the various NSA models.

Think it through. The NMA will be its own aircraft (should it be built; which I believe is most likely). It will be true that a lot of the technology developed or refined for the NMA will end up on the NSA, when it is developed.

In the end, 757 and 767 did not have the same engines or the same wings, yet did have similar systems and shared type ratings. I think the same will be true of NMA+NSA.

I think the strong sales of MAX and the need for next generation engine tech pushes the NSA into the late 2020s window.

By then, who knows what may happen.

As one poster here likes to point out, maybe by then Boeing and GE will merge and maybe Airbus and RR will merge, and we'll have an even more intense duopoly.


The key area of commonality would be the cockpit really. If you can use it on both then I think NMA and NSA will be tightly related systems wise.

I suspect you get a common cockpit, maybe just cut off further forward if you want a narrower fuselage on NSA. The NMA will have a more traditional wing and I expect NSA to have something more exotic attached to it’s midsection.

New avionics not tied to the 787 will be a giveaway this is going on IMHO. That means they want to set a new standard going forward.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:58 pm

For two very different requirements, you end up with compromises, specially if the requirements are far apart.

Even if you could use dedicated wing boxes, wings and engines for the requirements, the fuselage would probably not be optimal. Most designs are hardly ever used to their maximum requirements, so most of the time overweight. A flexible "one size fits all" is efficient only when fuel costs are low long term.

Image
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:44 pm

Something tells me that THIS is Boeing's NSA:


I so want the T-tail to make a comeback!
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:47 pm

The question is what technologies would the NSA and NMA share?
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:48 pm

As I recall, Boeing invested $15 million in the 377-80 (707 prototype) and that was a huge investment in the early 50's. $15 billion for a single aircraft type today is staggering. It makes perfect sense they probably can't and indeed shouln't develop two brand new airliners at the same time. As has been said previously, the NSA will take lessons learned from the NMA and I have a feeling it will be a quantum jump not only over the 737 but over the best the competition can develop to try to match it. My 25 cents worth. :-)
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:51 pm

2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I was indicating that on the NSA it would be a great model to have a 6 abreast NARROW BODY (Not 797 WB!) with the MOM wing. Yes it is a big wing and 50% more thrust ( 50 k lbf vs 33 k) but it could almost be a 6,000 mile range hub buster, far above the current Max capabilities. The next NSA model would have the NSA normal wing and engines. I have no information on the NSA model thoughts, other than I think it would be business suicide to drop right on the Max -8 territory until the Max orders are near the end. A side reason I like the NMA wing on a NB is that it would be a killer freighter also and possible P-8 follow on frame.


It is my understanding that the NMA is designed to fit into the 767 wingspan box (767 wingspan about 156 ft / 47.6 m Code E gate); which is larger than a 737 wingspan box (737-8max wingspan about 118 ft, 36 m Code D gate). Airports are filled with Code D gates - and the NSA will need to fit into those. A wing designed (even with folding wingtips) to fit into a Code E (767 size gate) will not be part of the replacement for the 737, in my opinion as it would not be suitable for most airlines flying 737 sized aircraft today.

Also, the overall NSA market size is likely 3 to 5 times the number of aircraft than for the NMA. Boeing will certainly design a wing specific to the aircraft - and not put on a wider and heaver than needed wing from the NMA (should it be built).

As for engines... The NSA aircraft will likely need less thrust - and it will kill the efficiency in several ways to put on oversized engines. Again, due to market size I am sure that adequate engines will be designed at the appropriate thrust levels for the various NSA models.

Think it through. The NMA will be its own aircraft (should it be built; which I believe is most likely). It will be true that a lot of the technology developed or refined for the NMA will end up on the NSA, when it is developed.

Have a great day,


From Jon Ostrower's info:
The yet-to-be-launched NMA is slated to arrive in 2025. First with the base model, the NMA-6X (225 passengers at 5,000nm) and the NMA-7X (265 passengers at 4,500nm) two years later, according to two people familiar with Boeing’s planning today.


So I see a possible approach for Boeing that does its best to not prematurely step on the Max until the NSA has really arrived. Only the first 2 NMA models are in the press at this time, the others are speculation. All will have folding wing tips.

2026 NMA -6X 225pax @ 5K Leap 50k engines Code E 6 per month.
2029 NMA-7X 265pax @ 4.5K Leap 50k engines Code E 6 per month, 10 per month for both NMA
2031 NMA-8X 300pax @ 3.5K Leap 50k engines Code E 4 per month, 14 per month for all NMA. A real people mover.

2033 NSA LR A 6ab NB on the NMA wing - 198 pax @ 6K Leap 50k engines. Code E 4 per month built on the NMA FAL 16 total NMA / month

2035 NSA -10 A 6ab NB on the new NSA wing 198 pax @ 3.5k New GTF engines 25-30K thrust range Code D 10/month for first NSA line away from NMA.

2036 NSA -8 A very efficient Max 8 replacement, GTF around 25-30K thrust, Code D 10/month on 2nd line.

2038 - Open of 3rd NSA line and increase to 14 per month on previous 2 lines. Total of around 35 per month NSA + 30 month on Max line.

The NSA needs to have more efficiency and a bit more range/capacity to justify a 20% higher initial cost, otherwise the Max sales will die.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:05 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
2175301 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
I was indicating that on the NSA it would be a great model to have a 6 abreast NARROW BODY (Not 797 WB!) with the MOM wing. Yes it is a big wing and 50% more thrust ( 50 k lbf vs 33 k) but it could almost be a 6,000 mile range hub buster, far above the current Max capabilities. The next NSA model would have the NSA normal wing and engines. I have no information on the NSA model thoughts, other than I think it would be business suicide to drop right on the Max -8 territory until the Max orders are near the end. A side reason I like the NMA wing on a NB is that it would be a killer freighter also and possible P-8 follow on frame.


It is my understanding that the NMA is designed to fit into the 767 wingspan box (767 wingspan about 156 ft / 47.6 m Code E gate); which is larger than a 737 wingspan box (737-8max wingspan about 118 ft, 36 m Code D gate). Airports are filled with Code D gates - and the NSA will need to fit into those. A wing designed (even with folding wingtips) to fit into a Code E (767 size gate) will not be part of the replacement for the 737, in my opinion as it would not be suitable for most airlines flying 737 sized aircraft today.

Also, the overall NSA market size is likely 3 to 5 times the number of aircraft than for the NMA. Boeing will certainly design a wing specific to the aircraft - and not put on a wider and heaver than needed wing from the NMA (should it be built).

As for engines... The NSA aircraft will likely need less thrust - and it will kill the efficiency in several ways to put on oversized engines. Again, due to market size I am sure that adequate engines will be designed at the appropriate thrust levels for the various NSA models.

Think it through. The NMA will be its own aircraft (should it be built; which I believe is most likely). It will be true that a lot of the technology developed or refined for the NMA will end up on the NSA, when it is developed.

Have a great day,


From Jon Ostrower's info:
The yet-to-be-launched NMA is slated to arrive in 2025. First with the base model, the NMA-6X (225 passengers at 5,000nm) and the NMA-7X (265 passengers at 4,500nm) two years later, according to two people familiar with Boeing’s planning today.


So I see a possible approach for Boeing that does its best to not prematurely step on the Max until the NSA has really arrived. Only the first 2 NMA models are in the press at this time, the others are speculation. All will have folding wing tips.

2026 NMA -6X 225pax @ 5K Leap 50k engines Code E 6 per month.
2029 NMA-7X 265pax @ 4.5K Leap 50k engines Code E 6 per month, 10 per month for both NMA
2031 NMA-8X 300pax @ 3.5K Leap 50k engines Code E 4 per month, 14 per month for all NMA. A real people mover.

2033 NSA LR A 6ab NB on the NMA wing - 198 pax @ 6K Leap 50k engines. Code E 4 per month built on the NMA FAL 16 total NMA / month

2035 NSA -10 A 6ab NB on the new NSA wing 198 pax @ 3.5k New GTF engines 25-30K thrust range Code D 10/month for first NSA line away from NMA.

2036 NSA -8 A very efficient Max 8 replacement, GTF around 25-30K thrust, Code D 10/month on 2nd line.

2038 - Open of 3rd NSA line and increase to 14 per month on previous 2 lines. Total of around 35 per month NSA + 30 month on Max line.

The NSA needs to have more efficiency and a bit more range/capacity to justify a 20% higher initial cost, otherwise the Max sales will die.


& meanwhile give the A321s and whatever NEO variants free homeruns? AA's first A321NEO showed up last week, many to follow. Maybe the NMA should be a bit smaller.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:14 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe the NMA should be a bit smaller.

:airplane: Might Airbus launch an all-new, mid-ranged, A300-sized composite airframe with dedicated engines and modernized cockpit in response...considering the A338 is not gaining traction in the market :?:
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Strato2
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:19 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
The NMA offers something new that will take orders from the 737-10, A321, A330neo and 787.


Boeing will not have the guts or business case to launch the hypothetical NMA/MOM or whatever. If they do so Airbus will probably re-wing the A321 and launch a A322 stretch which will kill the 737-9 and 10 so the net effect for Boeing will be a few thousand lost single aisle orders and 15 billion to develop a ridiculous two aisle plane with one extra seat over a narrowbody that will command better RASM while being probably nearly as efficient with it's slimmer fuselage.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:28 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
The NMA offers something new that will take orders from the 737-10, A321, A330neo and 787.


Boeing will not have the guts or business case to launch the hypothetical NMA/MOM or whatever. If they do so Airbus will probably re-wing the A321 and launch a A322 stretch which will kill the 737-9 and 10 so the net effect for Boeing will be a few thousand lost single aisle orders and 15 billion to develop a ridiculous two aisle plane with one extra seat over a narrowbody that will command better RASM while being probably nearly as efficient with it's slimmer fuselage.


Well that’s your opinion. I tend to be more on the side of the airlines who have publicly expressed interest in the NMA. I think Boeing will lose some orders that would have gone for the 737-10 just like Airbus will lose orders from airlines.

Here are some airline executive quotes regarding the NMA

Air Canada

In the context of Air Canada’s strategy to take some traffic out of the USA and connect via its international hubs, an aircraft of the NMA size could work for the Canadian carrier, says Ravinescu.
“That size of aircraft could fill in well with some of the cities that have the aspirations to connect international flights without connecting to a hub.”


https://leehamnews.com/2018/04/16/air-c ... d-for-nma/

Delta

Delta Air Lines and Boeing have discussed the possibility of the carrier launching the proposed New Mid-market Airplane (NMA), as Delta seeks a replacement for more than 100 ageing mid-market aircraft.

"We've had discussions with Boeing about being a potential launch customer," says Ed Bastian, chief executive of Delta, at the National Press Club in Washington DC today.



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-449780/

United

United Airlines is considering the Airbus A330-800neo and Boeing New Mid-market Airplane (NMA) among options to replace its fleet of aging Boeing 757s and 767s.

The Chicago-based carrier is looking at replacements for its 77 757-200 and -300s, and 51 767-300ERs in the near term, a presentation by senior vice-president of finance, procurement and treasurer Gerry Laderman on 27 February shows.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-446322/

American

The carrier’s senior vice-president of integrated operations David Seymour says American’s 787 delivery timeline keeps an NMA order on the table, though he stresses American knows little about the NMA’s ultimate production timetable or final specification.

Still, Seymour says the NMA could perform well in the carrier’s network and could replace the same aircraft types as the 787.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-447664/

Copa

Copa Airlines is considering Boeing's planned New Mid-market Airplane (NMA), which it says could potentially provide additional capacity on its longest routes, chief executive Pedro Heilbron tells FlightGlobal.

The Panamanian carrier's interest in the NMA is significant, given that it has steadfastly stuck to a narrowbody fleet all this while. However, Heilbron says a more cost-efficient widebody could convince Copa to change its mind.

"The existing widebodies make no sense," he tells FlightGlobal ahead of the US Chamber of Commerce aviation summit in Washington DC.

"But the NMA might make sense for Copa, if it gives us more capacity and range in what we hope will be a much less expensive and easier to operate aircraft compared to the 787 or A330."


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-446363/

Qantas

“Whether you’re running out of slots or whether you’re just looking to optimise capacity for the peak levels of demand... an airplane that has the flexibility to carry 20 to 30 per cent more people at the right time is going to be compelling," Mr Hulst said on the sidelines of the International Air Transport Association's AMG in Sydney last week.

"Also, with the range capability to fly as far as somewhere like Japan, into and beyond places like Singapore, and secondary markets in South East Asia, it becomes a really compelling opportunity."


https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 4zkto.html

Norwegian

Norwegian is "very interested" in Boeing's proposed New Midsize Airplane design, says chief executive Bjorn Kjos.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... eo-438904/

Thomas Cook

Thomas Cook is 'definitely interested' in Boeing's potential 797 jet

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... debus.html

Air Astana

“It was a glimmer of an idea in Singapore. We now understand it’s more than just a glimmer of an idea,” Mr Foster says. “It is being very seriously debated with dates, times and production facilities now being talked about and thought about internally at Boeing. We love it. It would be brilliant for us.”

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... ion-174725

I’m certain there are plenty more articles in non English publications.
 
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keesje
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:41 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Well that’s your opinion. I tend to be more on the side of the airlines who have publicly expressed interest in the NMA. I think Boeing will lose some orders that would have gone for the 737-10 just like Airbus will lose orders from airlines.

Here are some airline executive quotes regarding the NMA

I’m certain there are plenty more articles in non English publications.


I see you are re-publishing the links. In previous posts it was show that airlines "showing interest" isn't rare, they have little to loose or risk and it is not an indication of future succes.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:57 pm

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Well that’s your opinion. I tend to be more on the side of the airlines who have publicly expressed interest in the NMA. I think Boeing will lose some orders that would have gone for the 737-10 just like Airbus will lose orders from airlines.

Here are some airline executive quotes regarding the NMA

I’m certain there are plenty more articles in non English publications.


I see you are re-publishing the links. In previous posts it was show that airlines "showing interest" isn't rare, they have little to loose or risk and it is not an indication of future succes.


So you won't post links to airline quotes either?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:11 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Well that’s your opinion. I tend to be more on the side of the airlines who have publicly expressed interest in the NMA. I think Boeing will lose some orders that would have gone for the 737-10 just like Airbus will lose orders from airlines.

Here are some airline executive quotes regarding the NMA

I’m certain there are plenty more articles in non English publications.


I see you are re-publishing the links. In previous posts it was show that airlines "showing interest" isn't rare, they have little to loose or risk and it is not an indication of future succes.


So you won't post links to airline quotes either?


I tend to believe quotes from airline executives in the media far more than those who casually dismiss them when they go against their narrative.

There is a lot of buzz and excitement regarding the NMA in the media unlike an NSA, which is commonly suggested as a way to disparage the 737MAX despite it having just reached 5,000 orders. The 737MAX is here to stay for a while with no signs of its orders slowing down. It did beat the A320neo in orders last year for the first time since 2012.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:04 am

Newbiepilot wrote:
There is a lot of buzz and excitement regarding the NMA in the media unlike an NSA, which is commonly suggested as a way to disparage the 737MAX despite it having just reached 5,000 orders. The 737MAX is here to stay for a while with no signs of its orders slowing down. It did beat the A320neo in orders last year for the first time since 2012.


Boeing adjusted the -7 unsuccesfully and modified the -9 afterall into the -10. If Boeing leaves their NB portfolio as is, the situation with the A220s and A320s could get interesting in the coming decade.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:10 am

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is a lot of buzz and excitement regarding the NMA in the media unlike an NSA, which is commonly suggested as a way to disparage the 737MAX despite it having just reached 5,000 orders. The 737MAX is here to stay for a while with no signs of its orders slowing down. It did beat the A320neo in orders last year for the first time since 2012.


Boeing adjusted the -7 unsuccesfully and modified the -9 afterall into the -10. If Boeing leaves their NB portfolio as is, the situation with the A220s and A320s could get interesting in the coming decade.


Interesting for the next decade is something we agree on. Airbus added to its portfolio by purchasing the A220. Boeing is looking to add to its portfolio by launching a new plane. It’s great to see both manufacturers investing and thriving. Things will certainly remain interesting, but I don’t think a NSA from Boeing is a high priority given the 5,000 orders for the 737MAX. Boeing is more focused on the A321ceo and A330CEOs replacement market.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:05 am

I am 99% sure the NSA will have no shared structure with the NMA/797.

The 797 will be a scaled down 787 to around 767 capacity and two thirds of the range of the 787. We have seat numbers and range numbers already.

With the NSA Boeing keeps pushing the idea of a high wing aircraft with a slightly lower cruising speed. Lower cruising speeds are perfect for short range missions, so this design points to the NSA design.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:18 am

RJMAZ wrote:

With the NSA Boeing keeps pushing the idea of a high wing aircraft with a slightly lower cruising speed. Lower cruising speeds are perfect for short range missions, so this design points to the NSA design.


Not anymore. The latest trussed high wing concept allows Mach .80 cruising speed - the same as current generation narrowbodies. It's already tested in a high speed wind tunnel.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:36 am

No need to replace the 737MAX at the moment, the 737-8 is still the gold standard of the class and the MoM will handle the A321.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:42 am

18 years ago we saw fashinating design shortening long haul travel, saving the most valuable of all time. Big airlines showed a lot of interest. In the end they asked & got a better A330.

Then the time had come to replace the 737 and A320 with a brand new design,, setting new standards in terms of efficiency and new technology. Airlines showed a lot of interst. New engines proved the way forward.

Google is 20 years old so ee can still trace the statements of manufacturer and airline executives at the time. What they say usually serves a short term goals and is "updated" as required.

Of course Boeing always communicated they feel confident about the MAX unti 2030. Meanwhie they modified the 737-7 and -9/-10 and keep a close eye on margins and post 2025 realities.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:59 am

Keeping a close eye on margins is something Airbus should start doing.
 
81819
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:58 am

seahawk wrote:
Keeping a close eye on margins is something Airbus should start doing.


Some interesting stats:

Where Airbus has 87 airline orders for the A320NEO, Boeing has 78.

Where the average order size for the A320NEO is 69, the average for the 737MAX is 52.

27 of the 87 A320NEO airline customers would be considered growth airlines, compared to 23 of the 78 737MAX airline customers.

Where the average A320NEO order typically represents 115% of an airlines installed fleet, the average for the 737MAX is only 78%.

Approximately 20% of 737MAX orders are unidentified compared to 6% for the A320NEO.

Where approximately 3 major operators of the A320CEO are yet to place orders for the A320NEO / 737MAX, approximately fifteen 737NG operators are yet to place orders for a next generation narrow body aircraft.

If we consider a Boeing contract could favour a break-up between orders, options and purchase rights and an Airbus contract could favour straight orders the market split between these two aircraft could be closer to 53:47 than the often mooted 60:40.

Where Airbus produced approximately US $4b in free cash flows in 2018 (a vast improvement over 2017), Boeing typically produces free cash flows in the regions of US $10-14b per annum.

If we consider commercial aeroplanes represents 60% of the Boeing business and 80% for Airbus, Boeing typically produces US $10m for every aircraft sold compared to US $4m for Airbus.

In short, the order numbers for the 737MAX aren't as bad as the headline order totals would suggest. As such a business case for the NSA will be based upon profit opportunity rather than order totals in 2019 .

I suspect we won't see the NSA until the 2030's.
Last edited by 81819 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
parapente
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:15 am

I don't think anybody argues against the fact that there is a market gap for a proper replacement of the 757 and 767 series aircaft.That gap is presently being filled at the edges by ( primarily) the A321neo at the lower end and the 788 at the other,although neither are perfect,unsurprisingly.Nor would most argue against the fact ( airlines certainly don't) that the two flavours of 797 would perfectly fill that gap,unsurprisingly.
The question repeated over and over again by Boeing themselves is the 'commercial case' ie sales volume over time.That leaves only the final variable.Which can be summarised by the words 'Black Diamond'.Cost.
Has Boeing managed to develop a paradigm change in development,servicing and manufacturing costs to significantly lower the B/E point and sale price of aircaft?
Whilst people like to point ( correctly) at the massive cost and time overrun of the 787 project ,much of that was due to taking a huge gamble on a completely new way of manufacturing aircraft.Ready stuffed whole carbon pieces,fully electric that could be ( their words) 'clipped together' thus allowing a fast and simple assembly in an area/factory/people with little to no experience in building aircaft.
Who knows whether they decide it can or can't be done for a 797.No doubt they will let us know this summer.
IMHO this aircaft will introduce no new materials technology what so ever.It will be safe and fast.A mini ( ovoid) 787 if you like.

Note it wasn't so long ago that selling 1,000 aircaft was seen as the ultimate milestone of success.Its only rising development costs that has pushed this number to the right.No one is suggesting such an envisaged aircaft won't sell 1,000 copies are they?
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:06 pm

seahawk wrote:
No need to replace the 737MAX at the moment, the 737-8 is still the gold standard of the class


Far from it. 737-8 is the classic example of also-ran.
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:39 pm

travelhound wrote:
The question is what technologies would the NSA and NMA share?

As mentioned above, the cockpits could be shared, with appropriate fuselage integration.

Most of the avionics could be shared, with appropriate scaling/adaptation for each application.

Many components could be shared while others might need to be resized based on the application.

System architecture and design philosophies and tools could be shared.

We were told that an A350 is a "plastic A380" from the systems point of view, and we could see similar sharing with NMA/NSA.

Materials selection and fabrication techniques could be shared.

keesje wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
There is a lot of buzz and excitement regarding the NMA in the media unlike an NSA, which is commonly suggested as a way to disparage the 737MAX despite it having just reached 5,000 orders. The 737MAX is here to stay for a while with no signs of its orders slowing down. It did beat the A320neo in orders last year for the first time since 2012.


Boeing adjusted the -7 unsuccesfully and modified the -9 afterall into the -10. If Boeing leaves their NB portfolio as is, the situation with the A220s and A320s could get interesting in the coming decade.

I think you're ignoring the fact that MAX has an order book that carries it deep into the next decade and the backlog keeps growing.

A220 has the interesting situation that it is not now a commercial success, is having to fund a ramp up exercise based on revenues from airplanes with launch order discounts, and is going to have to undermine the high volume well established A320 to get more sales.

Yes, it should get interesting in the next decade.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:23 pm

travelhound wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Keeping a close eye on margins is something Airbus should start doing.


Some interesting stats:

Where Airbus has 87 airline orders for the A320NEO, Boeing has 78.

Where the average order size for the A320NEO is 69, the average for the 737MAX is 52.

27 of the 87 A320NEO airline customers would be considered growth airlines, compared to 23 of the 78 737MAX airline customers.

Where the average A320NEO order typically represents 115% of an airlines installed fleet, the average for the 737MAX is only 78%.

Approximately 20% of 737MAX orders are unidentified compared to 6% for the A320NEO.

Where approximately 3 major operators of the A320CEO are yet to place orders for the A320NEO / 737MAX, approximately fifteen 737NG operators are yet to place orders for a next generation narrow body aircraft.

If we consider a Boeing contract could favour a break-up between orders, options and purchase rights and an Airbus contract could favour straight orders the market split between these two aircraft could be closer to 53:47 than the often mooted 60:40.

Where Airbus produced approximately US $4b in free cash flows in 2018 (a vast improvement over 2017), Boeing typically produces free cash flows in the regions of US $10-14b per annum.

If we consider commercial aeroplanes represents 60% of the Boeing business and 80% for Airbus, Boeing typically produces US $10m for every aircraft sold compared to US $4m for Airbus.

In short, the order numbers for the 737MAX aren't as bad as the headline order totals would suggest. As such a business case for the NSA will be based upon profit opportunity rather than order totals in 2019 .

I suspect we won't see the NSA until the 2030's.


Thank you for sharing some numbers. I do think they help explain why an NSA is not needed now. Even though The MAX just surpassed 5,000 orders, there is more to the story. For some reason many people suggesting that an NSA is needed seem to ignore the significance of 5000 orders.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:32 am

Well 5000 carries the MAX theoretically until 2025, 2026. We need another 3000-4000 @ healthy margins to to make an NSA after 2030 a smart strategy.

While we can confuse & distract with contradicting generalizations and assumptions for years (e.g. using number of orders, carriers, average quantities, number of airlines and time windows as suits the end conclusions) at some point reality will kick in. Boeing might experience the MAX is getting ordered mainly for fleet commonality, lack of slots on other products and sharp pricing.

In the longer term that is not a favorable position. Over the years I felt United ordering a 100 A321NEO's might flip the minds in Chicago, but they successfully prevented so far, by investing in the 737-10.

Still AA, Delta, Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, HA and Alaska introducing growing numbers of A321's must generate questions, internally. Is the MAX-10/ NMA gonna solve this? Was GE/CFM only the right bet?

Image
Last edited by keesje on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:46 am

seahawk wrote:
Funny that you say "sharp pricing" for Boeing when the margin at Boeing is significantly superior to Airbus. Maybe sharp pricing is the driving factor behind the "success" of the A320?


Are you of the "free cash flow while ignoring dept bumped into the future per average airline works for me if it supports my preference" blood group?
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:00 pm

keesje wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Funny that you say "sharp pricing" for Boeing when the margin at Boeing is significantly superior to Airbus. Maybe sharp pricing is the driving factor behind the "success" of the A320?


Are you of the "free cash flow while ignoring dept bumped into the future per average airline works for me if it supports my preference" blood group?


If you think operating margin or EBIT is a believe, fine by me. It explains many of your posts.
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 pm

keesje wrote:
Well 5000 carries the MAX theoretically until 2025, 2026. We need another 3000-4000 @ healthy margins to to make an NSA after 2030 a smart strategy.

While we can confuse & distract with contradicting generalizations and assumptions for years (e.g. using number of orders, carriers, average quantities, number of airlines and time windows as suits the end conclusions) at some point reality will kick in. Boeing might experience the MAX is getting ordered mainly for fleet commonality, lack of slots on other products and sharp pricing.

In the longer term that is not a favorable position. Over the years I felt United ordering a 100 A321NEO's might flip the minds in Chicago, but they successfully prevented so far, by investing in the 737-10.

Still AA, Delta, Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, HA and Alaska introducing growing numbers of A321's must generate questions, internally. Is the MAX-10/ NMA gonna solve this? Was GE/CFM only the right bet?

Image


My post was a quick quantative analysis of the sales race between the A320NEO & 737MAX. No smoke and mirrors, biases or rhetoric. Just some valid numbers using elementary maths.
 
brindabella
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:31 pm

Fun post for me to be able to congratulate Keesje and add some thoughts - but first the usual unfounded assertions stemming from Keesje's ... compulsions? I really don't know.

But first, to dispense with the usual:-

keesje wrote:
Well 5000 carries the MAX theoretically until 2025, 2026. We need another 3000-4000 @ healthy margins to to make an NSA after 2030 a smart strategy.

While we can confuse & distract with contradicting generalizations and assumptions for years (e.g. using number of orders, carriers, average quantities, number of airlines and time windows as suits the end conclusions) at some point reality will kick in. Boeing might experience the MAX is getting ordered mainly for fleet commonality, lack of slots on other products and sharp pricing.

In the longer term that is not a favorable position. Over the years I felt United ordering a 100 A321NEO's might flip the minds in Chicago, but they successfully prevented so far, by investing in the 737-10.


Blah blah. Same old same old. :zzz:

Inconvenient fact:-

The 737-family outsold A320-family last year.
And yet it seems clear that 737-family pricing has always been stronger than 320-family pricing all along - now it is outselling 320-family as well.

Recognition from Keesje?

Don't hold your breath! :spin:

But now, however:-



keesje wrote:
Still AA, Delta, Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, HA and Alaska introducing growing numbers of A321's must generate questions, internally. Is the MAX-10/ NMA gonna solve this?


:checkmark:

Quite different IMO.

I regard the (still increasing) market-presence of the 321-neo variants as being a "pot of gold" for AB which BA ignores at its' peril.
(And yet I have (for 4 years now) been banging-on that the next major market-mover would be something like the 1970's 757/767 siblings. And I hold to that and I think the new NMA/NSA pairing will be extremely successful.)

But from BA's perspective, I foresee that even given such a successful NMA/NSA pairing; BA will nevertheless find substantial ongoing market-resistance in the NB-space because the 320-neo developments will:-

A) arrive way before the NMA (one of several reason for the NMA "launch" delay, IMO!!! :eek: )
B) further anchor the far-sighted (1980's) vision from AB to create a "common cockpit" and minimal flight-crew transition costs, as well as reducing Engineering and Stores costs.


That is, I predict that the future BA sales-force will find that many airlines just don't want to even think-about the agonies of transitioning to BA models - even if such might possibly be technically superior. (**)

cheers

(**) I started a thread to this effect and was accused of pumping the 321-neo family excessively.

Well no, I really think there will be that many of these variants sold and the customer-loyalty generated will become an extremely significant (and growing) asset for AB - which BA ignores at it's peril.

And NO, the MAX-10/NMA combo will not satisfactorily solve the problem, IMO.. :shakehead:

BA must face the challenge directly.



(***) And`the unfriendly words above happily will not change the perennial realities that:-

A) It will all bounce off Keesje like water off a duck's back.
B) I just love Keesje's graphics and visuals - even if I am bemused by the conclusions that he is able to wring from them! :D :shhh:
Billy
 
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:49 pm

keesje wrote:
Well 5000 carries the MAX theoretically until 2025, 2026. We need another 3000-4000 @ healthy margins to to make an NSA after 2030 a smart strategy.

While we can confuse & distract with contradicting generalizations and assumptions for years (e.g. using number of orders, carriers, average quantities, number of airlines and time windows as suits the end conclusions) at some point reality will kick in. Boeing might experience the MAX is getting ordered mainly for fleet commonality, lack of slots on other products and sharp pricing.

In the longer term that is not a favorable position. Over the years I felt United ordering a 100 A321NEO's might flip the minds in Chicago, but they successfully prevented so far, by investing in the 737-10.

Still AA, Delta, Jetblue, Spirit, Frontier, HA and Alaska introducing growing numbers of A321's must generate questions, internally. Is the MAX-10/ NMA gonna solve this? Was GE/CFM only the right bet?

I'm still waiting for reality to sink in for you: Boeing has a deep and profitable 737 backlog that keeps growing. Boeing's biggest problem is figuring out how to build more 737s per year.
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Re: NSA+NMA: Could Boeing do them both together (again)?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:53 pm

brindabella wrote:
Fun post for me to be able to congratulate Keesje and add some thoughts - but first the usual unfounded assertions stemming from Keesje's ... compulsions? I really don't know.

But first, to dispense with the usual:-

keesje wrote:
Well 5000 carries the MAX theoretically until 2025, 2026. We need another 3000-4000 @ healthy margins to to make an NSA after 2030 a smart strategy.

While we can confuse & distract with contradicting generalizations and assumptions for years (e.g. using number of orders, carriers, average quantities, number of airlines and time windows as suits the end conclusions) at some point reality will kick in. Boeing might experience the MAX is getting ordered mainly for fleet commonality, lack of slots on other products and sharp pricing.

In the longer term that is not a favorable position. Over the years I felt United ordering a 100 A321NEO's might flip the minds in Chicago, but they successfully prevented so far, by investing in the 737-10.


Blah blah. Same old same old. :zzz:

Inconvenient fact:-

The 737-family outsold A320-family last year.
And yet it seems clear that 737-family pricing has always been stronger than 320-family pricing all along - now it is outselling 320-family as well.

:


The 737-family outsold A320-family last year.
:checkmark:

The NEO has dramatically outsold the MAX in numbers (+1200), TO (321vs 739/10) customers (switchers 737 to 320) over the yrs
:checkmark:

Both correct statements. You can select / leave out / combine correct numbers to generalize / create perceptions.
But I don't have to tell that a.net members.. :veryhappy:

But from BA's perspective, I foresee that even given such a successful NMA/NSA pairing; BA will nevertheless find substantial ongoing market-resistance in the NB-space because the 320-neo developments will:-


We have seen different ideas on that, sharing technology, sharing sytems, fuselages..
Image
:arrow: Usually the Boeing camp needs a lot of smoke to admit there's a fire, https://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/boeing-ceo-no-urgent-response-a321neo-needed, https://www.seattletimes.com/business/report-boeing-eyed-stake-in-bombardiers-cseries-before-talks-derailed/ but I expect some major airlines/ lessors to have serious discussions.

:arrow: IMO the most rational approach could be developing an NSA Airframe that is unbeatable at the "heart of the NB market" (150-200 seats 1500-2000NM?) first. That should be possible, the A320 origins are eighties technology & best engines are crucial but available to all. Having done that, see where this design can be used to create a 4000NM with 200 passengers NMA. Not the other way around (NMA->NSA). Above this, most airlines likely prefer WB capability / network flexibility. .

:arrow: That might lead to some NMA downsizing (in terms of specs) in comparison with the "new 767' indications we have seen floating around so far..

IMO :wink2:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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