SpaceshipDC10
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A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:16 pm

Les Pollués de Montréal-Trudeau announced Wednesday they have hired a lawyer to request a declaratory judgment in Quebec Superior Court requiring that Aéroports de Montréal respect internal regulations restricting takeoffs and landings between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m.


It is demanding as well that the airport authority hold public consultations on a $2.5-billion expansion planned for 2030, which will add between 10 and 14 new gates to the airport, which they argue is required under the Civil Code pertaining to environmental protection.


At the same time, the group is filing a request to launch a second class-action lawsuit, to investigate and act upon a reported increase in air pollution around the airport. A McGill University study published in late December reported that air pollution levels on the airport grounds were higher than in downtown Montreal at rush hour, and include a high proportion of airborne particles containing heavy metals harmful to human health.


https://montrealgazette.com/news/local- ... ens-insist

We'll see how successful they'll be with requests and the impact it could have on the airport's development. Should authorities consider relocating the airport in the medium to long term?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:21 pm

They did it before, anyone remember Mirabel.

GF
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:08 pm

So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?
 
Noise
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:38 pm

Very special people.
 
trav777
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:16 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


oh but it was such a great price!!!!

it's always the same, move in where there's some noxious industrial use then sue to shut it down
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:18 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They did it before, anyone remember Mirabel.

GF


Well problem with Mirabel was it wasn't moving the entire airport, it was moving the International flights only... so of course it failed. Now if they'd moved all the flights and it could've turned out a very different story.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Moving the airport is not going to happen. There has been massive investment into YUL over the last 15+ years, and it is paying off in the form of rapid growth, specifically on the international side and developing into a true connecting hub for AC. The upcoming light rail connection will only solidify YUL's location right where it is.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:36 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.


That’s not what I said at all. I’m talking about stuff like when someone knowingly buys a house next to a dairy farm that has been there for 100 years. Then they try to get it closed down because they don’t like the smell of the cows.

How about people being responsible for their own decisions. No-one holds a gun to your head and makes you buy a home next to an airport. If you chose to do that then accept the consequences.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:26 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.


And your line of thinking suggests nothing bad should ever happen to anyone and let’s litigate the hell out of everyone until that pipe dream comes true.

Light and noise pollution. Gimme a break, man is western society ever soft.

So soft the rest of the world will be calling us toilet paper.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:33 pm

When that airport opened in 1941, there was basically no residential housing of any sorts in the area. Furthermore, the overall noise level (and air pollution) has considerably decreased since then - despite the increase of air traffic.

You buy a house close to an airport because you work close by, fly often or want to save some money on the purchase price.

Those complainers / NIMBY most probably just want to achieve a quick buck in reselling their properties - previously purchased at a bargain price.

I have ZERO sympathy for those complainers (BTW, my property is under YUL's main landing path - I hear well those engines when they correct the gliding path).
 
mham001
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:14 pm

mham001 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
mham001 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


Gee, it never occurred to the people who voluntarily moved next to an airport in a growing area that traffic might increase?
 
waly777
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:36 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
mham001 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


I imagine those affected also use YUL to travel and are very much a part of the "problem" they seek to challenge. Most airports grow and expand, if you a buy a house next to it... it's your problem.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
Blerg
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:40 pm

People who protest against airlines and airports expanding should get a lifelong ban on flying. They are more than welcome to go around the world on their eco-friendly bicycle.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:46 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
mham001 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


Sorry but I disagree. You buy a house next to/near an airport.... of course traffic is going to increase, and at various times quite drastically! I have zero sympathy for these folks.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 332 333 342 343 380
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:26 pm

To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.

Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???
 
Cush
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:43 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.

Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???


We are not "blindly" calling them stupid, but it's proven fact that they are stupid.

When you purchase or rent a home near a business or industry that causes noise or pollution, what more do you expect?

What if you bought a home on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, and then complain that the party goers are too noisy outside.

What if you bought a home right near an active volcano in Hawaii, and then complain when it begins to erupt.

What if you bought a home next to a sporting arena, and complain because the fans and music are too noisy.

Common sense (even in movies it's a funny joke) says that living near an airport is unhealthy and noisy.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get 4. Unless you are in liberal Canada with their taxes and laws, in which case 2 + 2 + Taxes = 9.

People really are so whiny and such cry babies these days...
Fly me to the moon let me play among the stars.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.
Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???
Actually since opening in 1941, noise and air pollution has considerably decreased from YUL operations - but particularly since 1970.

And the surroundings went from open field to fully urbanised, knowing full well noisy piston aircrafts were operating nearby (and worst: polluting/noisy 707s / DC9/DC8).
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Stitch
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:58 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law. When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


WayexTDI wrote:
Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???


Could not one argue that, in both cases, that the pollution is still within the "cap" set by law as the government (the law) would have otherwise stepped in themselves if said "cap" had been exceeded?

And if ExMilitaryEng's data is correct and YUL's noise levels have been decreasing since 1970 then, if anything, should current noise levels be lower against said "cap" now then they were decades ago?
 
mpdpilot
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


The problem with this agrument as others have implied is that with aviation, 70% more travelers doesn't mean 70% more pollution (noise or otherwise).

Look at any airport and look and the noise pollution maps (easily googleable for US Airports), you have to be living very close for the noise of aircraft to exceed the noise level of a city. Back in my graduate days, I read that your neighbor mowing their lawn is louder than airplanes for almost everyone (unless you live next to MDW for example).

Noise pollution and pollution in general from airports is hardly excessive and certainly not excessive compared to when the homes were built (excessive compared to 1902 perhaps :)).
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:03 pm

Cush wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.

Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???


We are not "blindly" calling them stupid, but it's proven fact that they are stupid.

When you purchase or rent a home near a business or industry that causes noise or pollution, what more do you expect?

What if you bought a home on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, and then complain that the party goers are too noisy outside.

What if you bought a home right near an active volcano in Hawaii, and then complain when it begins to erupt.

What if you bought a home next to a sporting arena, and complain because the fans and music are too noisy.

Common sense (even in movies it's a funny joke) says that living near an airport is unhealthy and noisy.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get 4. Unless you are in liberal Canada with their taxes and laws, in which case 2 + 2 + Taxes = 9.

People really are so whiny and such cry babies these days...

You do understand the noise footprint of an active airport is not limited to its immediate vicinity, right? With more movement (70% increase in PAX count since 2006 didn't come by using planes 70% bigger...), the footprint is extended in size to accommodate the increased traffic and its duration increases.

When you're buying a house, you (should) study its surrounding and decide whether it's fit for you or not. However, changes in noise and light patterns (a.k.a. noise and light pollution) mandated by a close-by business is not something you have to blindly swallow.
It I buy a house that's under an active pattern and see that said pattern is active during the daytime only (when I'm away at work and perfectly fine with that), I understand there is noise pollution but it does not impact my daily life and I can be fine with that. Now, if that airport extends its hours, or become more freight-oriented (with more nightly activities), the noise pollution will more directly affect me. Should I just say nothing? Think about it for a second.

People calling people whiny and cry babies so easily (without having all the facts) are the first ones to whine when they are impacted by something...
 
Noise
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Are the residents making the argument that traffic over the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years at YUL was supposed to stay stagnant? The residents should have expected for traffic to very from year to year...they would be stupid to assume otherwise.
 
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DrPaul
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:19 pm

I must admit that I don't have much sympathy for people complaining about aeroplane noise when the airport in question has been there for years and -- I think it's safe to assume -- those making the complaints have moved there since its opening. I was born under the approach to Heathrow, and now live under one of the departure routes, and what is certain is that although there are more planes coming into and going out of Heathrow, they are a lot more quiet than they used to be. Have the people complaining about, say an Airbus A320 or A380 ever heard a BAC-111 or Vickers VC-10?
 
WN732
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:28 pm

DrPaul wrote:
I must admit that I don't have much sympathy for people complaining about aeroplane noise when the airport in question has been there for years and -- I think it's safe to assume -- those making the complaints have moved there since its opening. I was born under the approach to Heathrow, and now live under one of the departure routes, and what is certain is that although there are more planes coming into and going out of Heathrow, they are a lot more quiet than they used to be. Have the people complaining about, say an Airbus A320 or A380 ever heard a BAC-111 or Vickers VC-10?


Or for LHR especially, Concorde.
 
RJNUT
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:42 pm

DrPaul wrote:
I must admit that I don't have much sympathy for people complaining about aeroplane noise when the airport in question has been there for years and -- I think it's safe to assume -- those making the complaints have moved there since its opening. I was born under the approach to Heathrow, and now live under one of the departure routes, and what is certain is that although there are more planes coming into and going out of Heathrow, they are a lot more quiet than they used to be. Have the people complaining about, say an Airbus A320 or A380 ever heard a BAC-111 or Vickers VC-10?


Oh, how I loved that snap,crackle and pop of those Speys on the Bac111!
 
Ellofiend
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:05 pm

All those poor people from Tehran with their B707’s, oh hang on, I mean Montreal with their A330’s and A340’s.
For gds sake people, If this were the biggest problem in my life then wow my life would be freaking spectacular. I can’t believe that they don’t have anything better to do with their time than complain about an inherent problem in the location that they decided to live in. If someone could show me proof that YUL has changed flightpaths then they would have a case but unless that’s true then these people should just get stuffed and do something better with their lives. Reminds me of one individual who used to complain for every single aircraft that went over their house without even listening, just went straight to the timetables and only got caught out when he complained about a cancelled flight.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:15 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
You do understand the noise footprint of an active airport is not limited to its immediate vicinity, right? With more movement (70% increase in PAX count since 2006 didn't come by using planes 70% bigger...), the footprint is extended in size to accommodate the increased traffic and its duration increases.


Here are YUL's movements from the last four years. I don't know the numbers further back in time.

2018: 221 191 up to November only (should be arond 240.000 including December)
2017: 234 258
2016: 225 203
2015: 219 128
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:24 pm

I know this question's probably not relevant to the situation why weren't the Canadian government or the Quebec provincial government mandate that all traffic should go to Mirabel when it was just opened in the 1970s?

I just ask because it's been bandied about that distance is a factor for people's reluctance to fly out of Mirabel - but my home airport is of the same distance from city centre as Mirabel from Montreal CBD so I don't see how it's such a big problem?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:50 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
You do understand the noise footprint of an active airport is not limited to its immediate vicinity, right? With more movement (70% increase in PAX count since 2006 didn't come by using planes 70% bigger...), the footprint is extended in size to accommodate the increased traffic and its duration increases.


A 120 seat B737-200 makes more noise than a 280 seat B767 or B787. Passenger numbers are useless in your argument. Aircraft movement is what you need to look at.

YUL aircraft movement in 2006 : 213,483
YUL aircraft movement in 2017 : 235,099

That's an increase of 10% in 11 years, or less than 1% a year. Hardly an increase. As older more noisy aircraft have been replaced by newer ones with quieter engines, noise has gone down over the years.

2006 source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... 2310009101
2017 source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en ... 2310001801
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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usxguy
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:01 am

Maybe Quebec can use some of the $13 billion in equalization payments it stole from other provinces to sound proof some homes...
xx
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:03 am

usxguy wrote:
Maybe Quebec can use some of the $13 billion in equalization payments it stole from other provinces to sound proof some homes...


It stole? Maybe you should educate yourself on how equalization payments work.....dum**ss.

It's a federal program. Provinces have no say on who gets what. Alberta benefited from the same program back in the 1950s. In fact, all provinces have benefited from the program at one time or another.

Here's a free lesson. Read and keep your uneducated comments to yourself.

https://www.thestar.com/edmonton/2018/0 ... xpert.html
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
flightless
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:08 am

The problem isn't really the sound of airplanes flying over the house.

The real problem is the sound of money flying over the house - that is absolutely intolerable; causes insomnia, greed, litigiousness, jealousy, and a host of other health problems.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:21 am

It's so stupid that these whining people get taken seriously. How is aircraft noise any worse than other noises that people that live in a city have to deal with - roads, railways, cars driving past, etc. If they can't deal with it they should go and live in the countryside instead of whining and complaining all day long.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:24 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Cush wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.

Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???


We are not "blindly" calling them stupid, but it's proven fact that they are stupid.

When you purchase or rent a home near a business or industry that causes noise or pollution, what more do you expect?

What if you bought a home on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, and then complain that the party goers are too noisy outside.

What if you bought a home right near an active volcano in Hawaii, and then complain when it begins to erupt.

What if you bought a home next to a sporting arena, and complain because the fans and music are too noisy.

Common sense (even in movies it's a funny joke) says that living near an airport is unhealthy and noisy.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get 4. Unless you are in liberal Canada with their taxes and laws, in which case 2 + 2 + Taxes = 9.

People really are so whiny and such cry babies these days...

You do understand the noise footprint of an active airport is not limited to its immediate vicinity, right? With more movement (70% increase in PAX count since 2006 didn't come by using planes 70% bigger...), the footprint is extended in size to accommodate the increased traffic and its duration increases.

When you're buying a house, you (should) study its surrounding and decide whether it's fit for you or not. However, changes in noise and light patterns (a.k.a. noise and light pollution) mandated by a close-by business is not something you have to blindly swallow.
It I buy a house that's under an active pattern and see that said pattern is active during the daytime only (when I'm away at work and perfectly fine with that), I understand there is noise pollution but it does not impact my daily life and I can be fine with that. Now, if that airport extends its hours, or become more freight-oriented (with more nightly activities), the noise pollution will more directly affect me. Should I just say nothing? Think about it for a second.

People calling people whiny and cry babies so easily (without having all the facts) are the first ones to whine when they are impacted by something...


Maybe the airport should phone you each time an aircraft wants to take off to check if you are home from work.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3251
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:29 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.


That’s not what I said at all. I’m talking about stuff like when someone knowingly buys a house next to a dairy farm that has been there for 100 years. Then they try to get it closed down because they don’t like the smell of the cows.

How about people being responsible for their own decisions. No-one holds a gun to your head and makes you buy a home next to an airport. If you chose to do that then accept the consequences.


Fully agree, you knew it was there, don't complain later!
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:41 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
I know this question's probably not relevant to the situation why weren't the Canadian government or the Quebec provincial government mandate that all traffic should go to Mirabel when it was just opened in the 1970s?

I just ask because it's been bandied about that distance is a factor for people's reluctance to fly out of Mirabel - but my home airport is of the same distance from city centre as Mirabel from Montreal CBD so I don't see how it's such a big problem?

The YUL/YMX history is a very long story, but in short...the original plan was to move all commercial flights to Mirabel. The move was to take place in phases, with international flights being the first to move out to YMX. That took place, but the domestic shift never followed. A lot of this was fueled by the (understandable) reluctance to completely move away from YUL - without traffic, it is well under 30 minutes to downtown Montreal. Mirabel is far - up in the Laurentians with no public transport link; even the highway going from the 15 out to YMX alternates between one and two lanes in each direction. It's hard to justify that trip when YUL is within 30 minutes of downtown/much of the West Island. Also forcing a move to YMX became much less justifiable when Montreal's growth flatlined generally in the 80s/90s and YUL could clearly handle the demand.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3251
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:55 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Cush wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
To all blindly calling the citizen's group stupid.

Think about it another way: you buy a house somewhat near (meaning not directly next to) a coal powerplant, or a garbage incinerator, you've been in the around and you know you're far enough that there is no smell or pollution that would affect that area. Now, 10 years later, that same pollution generator has increased its production by 70%, and the pollution reaches your house. Are you going to stay quiet and say "oh well, too bad so sad, my house value has just dropped and there is nothing I will do about it"???


We are not "blindly" calling them stupid, but it's proven fact that they are stupid.

When you purchase or rent a home near a business or industry that causes noise or pollution, what more do you expect?

What if you bought a home on Bourbon Street in New Orleans, and then complain that the party goers are too noisy outside.

What if you bought a home right near an active volcano in Hawaii, and then complain when it begins to erupt.

What if you bought a home next to a sporting arena, and complain because the fans and music are too noisy.

Common sense (even in movies it's a funny joke) says that living near an airport is unhealthy and noisy.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get 4. Unless you are in liberal Canada with their taxes and laws, in which case 2 + 2 + Taxes = 9.

People really are so whiny and such cry babies these days...

You do understand the noise footprint of an active airport is not limited to its immediate vicinity, right? With more movement (70% increase in PAX count since 2006 didn't come by using planes 70% bigger...), the footprint is extended in size to accommodate the increased traffic and its duration increases.

When you're buying a house, you (should) study its surrounding and decide whether it's fit for you or not. However, changes in noise and light patterns (a.k.a. noise and light pollution) mandated by a close-by business is not something you have to blindly swallow.
It I buy a house that's under an active pattern and see that said pattern is active during the daytime only (when I'm away at work and perfectly fine with that), I understand there is noise pollution but it does not impact my daily life and I can be fine with that. Now, if that airport extends its hours, or become more freight-oriented (with more nightly activities), the noise pollution will more directly affect me. Should I just say nothing? Think about it for a second.

People calling people whiny and cry babies so easily (without having all the facts) are the first ones to whine when they are impacted by something...


Your agument fails when you look at how long the airport was 24/7 years back.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1453
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:32 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.


So what do you propose? The airlines and airport and using the resources they have available. Jet engines don't run on good vibes and fairy dust. You and these crazy folks at YUL need a reality check.
 
TripleA
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:42 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:35 am

As others have pointed out it really is funny to me that as airplanes have gotten quieter and quieter over the years, the number of people complaining about noise seems to be increasing. And as for these people who are buying homes next to airports and then complaining, they have nobody but themselves to blame, especially if they moved there recently. Of course, this should serve as a good reminder to all of us to always try and do research about different areas before buying. This is unrelated but another common mistake people make is buying a house that backs up to open land, only for that land to eventually be developed and they're stuck with new houses, or a school, or a shopping center, or a freeway right behind them. Unfortunately, I don't think most people think about this stuff when buying.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:32 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
So these people bought houses near an airport and are now complaining about the noise?


That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute. The pollution here is noise, but excess light, fumes, and particulates are also recognized as bad for health. Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century.


"Welcome to Western democracy circa 21st century". Well, your line of thinking is why Armageddon will be here sooner than later. If you seem to think that 21st century thinking is the way of the future, enjoy yourself when it all comes crashing down!
 
crownvic
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:35 am

WayexTDI wrote:
mham001 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That line of thinking argues, in effect, that businesses have a right to pollute.


Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


No, they don't!
 
crownvic
Posts: 2469
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:40 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
mham001 wrote:

Weren't they given that right when they built the airport and rented the gates?

Any business does some level of pollution; that level is usually capped by law.

When your PAX traffic increases 70+% in 12 years (such as YUL from 2006 to 2018), those affected by the level of pollution have the right to challenge it and ask for change.


Gee, it never occurred to the people who voluntarily moved next to an airport in a growing area that traffic might increase?


BoeingGuy...I wouldn't waste your time arguing with a bunch of snowflakes. This is typical of today's society. They all need to deflect blame on everyone else and dare not blame themselves for their skewed decision making.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3714
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:40 am

It’s not the business polluting; it’s the traveling public demanding fast travel by air; assuming jets pollute more than other modes of transportation. BTW, we could go back in time and use real polluting transport—the horse.

GF
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:17 am

Canada - and indeed, Quebec- have truly vast amounts of quiet land for people to populate. It is such wonderful news! Solitude is yours! Or if you want to live in a metropolitan area, you must develop the skills that will make you a success, like tolerating the noises of a city.
 
masi1157
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:18 am

WayexTDI wrote:
When you're buying a house, you (should) study its surrounding and decide whether it's fit for you or not. However, changes in noise and light patterns (a.k.a. noise and light pollution) mandated by a close-by business is not something you have to blindly swallow.


Add to that the fact, that we didn' t know some decades ago what we know now about how harmful noise and other pollution is to our health.


Gruß, masi1157
508 different segments on 100 airlines to 211 airports in 55 countries
 
avier
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:06 am

This is the problem all around the world with these idotic residents choosing to live near airports.

The way it goes typically is;
The airport comes up at a place near the city which is mostly deserted or empty, and land prices there be typically lower than other suburbs or central areas. When the airport project starts, more roads and public transport lines get built and connected to the new airport. Automatically, the real estate value goes up near the airport area, because thats the effect the airport has on the city, it's real estate value around and it's economy. And many start buying houses, property, etc. Because after all it's now a booming and attractive area suddenly with an airport coming up there.

Then , 10, 20, 50 yrs later, those same morons living around will get the airport shutdown for it being a nuisance in the area.
What an irony!

The govt. should from the start prohibit residential homes and offices from coming up there upto a certain distance away from the airport and it's entire perimeter (thus also keeping room for future expansion) , especially in the take off and landing zones, so those lunatics can't get hold of that land and then complain later of noise, etc.
 
masi1157
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:10 am

avier wrote:
This is the problem all around the world with these idotic residents choosing to live near airports.


How simple the world can be, when you don't look outside your fence.


Gruß, masi1157
508 different segments on 100 airlines to 211 airports in 55 countries
 
avier
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Re: A citizens’ group fed up with the noise from flights in and out of YUL are stepping up their legal battle

Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:25 am

masi1157 wrote:
avier wrote:
This is the problem all around the world with these idotic residents choosing to live near airports.


How simple the world can be, when you don't look outside your fence.


Gruß, masi1157


I live like around 7000+nm from that country, and we have the exact same problem in our city (a financial capital) with two airports (a major and another regional one) facing the same issues. Not just my city, many cities in my country.

So whatever it's that you implied with your half-witted one-liner, only you would know.

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