salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:48 am

Here's a local papers' description of what transpired in a plane that was diverted from SFO to OAK and sat on the ground without letting passengers deplane.
https://www.marinij.com/2019/01/10/pass ... f=obinsite

After more than four hours stuck in an Aeromexico plane on the Oakland International Airport tarmac on Thursday, babies cried, women began to faint and passengers fanned each other with magazines to keep cool.

Some passengers called 911, others phoned passenger rights advocates and still others reached out to family and friends desperately trying to find a way to get off the plane after their flight from Guadalajara got diverted to Oakland instead of landing at San Francisco International Airport due to fog.
 
77H
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:54 am

Grabs the popcorn.... Will be interesting to understand exactly what went down.

OAK is not some sleepy backwater airport in flyover country you couldn’t find on a map. Though as I suspected even before giving the article a thorough read, it would appear some of the wait time was due to lack of staffing at US Customs. Let’s hope this was the primary cause as it’s about the only one that wouldn’t see AM getting too much flak. If any of the delay was due to AM Ops I really see no excuse as AM could have bussed AM staff in SFO over to OAK to assist. Even with the atrocious traffic in the Bay Area at present a chartered bus could have been secured and the AM employees driven to OAK. Beyond that, I will reserve any more judgement until we get more info.

77H
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:26 am

The thing that must have driven the passengers nuts is that they were in Oakland: almost home. If they could just get off the damn plane they would be on their way home, but the airline wouldn't let them off. I suspect Aeromexico was holding, waiting for a chance to fly over to SFO. This took place in midday, not in rush hour. A bus trip from OAK to SFO would take maybe 45 minutes or an hour at most.

Wait! No bus needed. There's a Bart connection between OAK and SFO.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g ... ornia.html
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:33 am

This episode happened a week ago from yesterday during one of the winter storms hitting the area. I remember hearing on the local SF news that FIS was not available at OAK at the time the plane landed, so everyone had to stay onboard until such time when ICE agents could process the passengers.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2780
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:36 am

salttee wrote:
The thing that must have driven the passengers nuts is that they were in Oakland: almost home. If they could just get off the damn plane they would be on their way home, but the airline wouldn't let them off. I suspect Aeromexico was holding, waiting for a chance to fly over to SFO. This took place in midday, not in rush hour. A bus trip from OAK to SFO would take maybe 45 minutes or an hour at most.

Wait! No bus needed. There's a Bart connection between OAK and SFO.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g ... ornia.html


This flight is an international flight. The passengers must be held until FIS agents arrive if none are available.
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:51 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This flight is an international flight. The passengers must be held until FIS agents arrive if none are available.

Oak is an International airport. They have FIS agents. If they were waiting for customs agents, I'm sure AeroMexico would have announced that loud and clear.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:20 am

salttee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This flight is an international flight. The passengers must be held until FIS agents arrive if none are available.

Oak is an International airport. They have FIS agents. If they were waiting for customs agents, I'm sure AeroMexico would have announced that loud and clear.


FIS is not open 24/7. And in this particular case, OAK appears to have had a FIS staffing issue due to the government shutdown.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:13 am

dcajet wrote:
salttee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
This flight is an international flight. The passengers must be held until FIS agents arrive if none are available.

Oak is an International airport. They have FIS agents. If they were waiting for customs agents, I'm sure AeroMexico would have announced that loud and clear.


FIS is not open 24/7. And in this particular case, OAK appears to have had a FIS staffing issue due to the government shutdown.

You're making an assumption that is not supported by what we know from the article:

Alameda County Sheriff’s spokesman Ray Kelly said: "The decision to keep passengers on the plane falls to the airline"
Another point in the article states that there were two immigration officers were working, (this was in the middle of a weekday.)

It sure looks like Aeromexico was more interested in getting their plane re-positioned and avoiding transportation fees for the passengers than they were about the well being of their passengers. The article did say that "only two immigration officers were working because of the federal government shutdown, slowing down the customs process". But the article didn't pin the holding passengers captive on that fact and I think that would have made great news if it could have been written that way.

If I was on the plane there probably would have been three people arrested. Keeping people prisoner on a plane sitting on a tarmac is not cool.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:33 pm

salttee wrote:
dcajet wrote:
salttee wrote:
Oak is an International airport. They have FIS agents. If they were waiting for customs agents, I'm sure AeroMexico would have announced that loud and clear.


FIS is not open 24/7. And in this particular case, OAK appears to have had a FIS staffing issue due to the government shutdown.

You're making an assumption that is not supported by what we know from the article:


I am making no assumption; on the same article that you posted it clearly reads:

She said only two immigration officers were working because of the federal government shutdown, slowing down the customs process.


Now, I don't know where you live, but here in SF this is ancient news. It got 2 minutes of attention on the day it happened, 10 days ago. An unfortunate chain of events (bad weather, a diversion, an airport like OAK with less than the required # of staff to handle international flights, etc) conspired to create such a situation. It is called life. And in life, s*it happens.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:46 pm

dcajet wrote:
I am making no assumption; on the same article that you posted it clearly reads:

She said only two immigration officers were working because of the federal government shutdown, slowing down the customs process.


You must have gotten that quote from my post.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13857
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:17 pm

salttee wrote:
Another point in the article states that there were two immigration officers were working, (this was in the middle of a weekday).


Does OAK have a typical setup with immigration and customs separate? If so, processing a flight with two officers probably is not possible.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:27 pm

salttee wrote:
dcajet wrote:
I am making no assumption; on the same article that you posted it clearly reads:

She said only two immigration officers were working because of the federal government shutdown, slowing down the customs process.


You must have gotten that quote from my post.


Of course I did, as I clearly stated on my answer to you. Did you even read it in the first place before going on and on about why this had happened? :banghead:
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
Flaps
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:39 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
salttee wrote:
Another point in the article states that there were two immigration officers were working, (this was in the middle of a weekday).


Does OAK have a typical setup with immigration and customs separate? If so, processing a flight with two officers probably is not possible.


Precisely

There are additional factors that we don't know about involving the workload of those two officers. Were there general aviation flights that needed to be covered, cargo flights, other pax flights such as charters? Other customs and immigration tasks that needed to be completed? Detained pax from another flight that needed processed etc? There are a LOT of possibilities. Its incredibly naive to assume that those two officers were just sitting around waiting for a potential diversion and had nothing else to do. A random diversion simply does not get priority just because its there. It gets fit in where and when it can be fit in.
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:45 pm

dcajet wrote:
salttee wrote:
dcajet wrote:
I am making no assumption; on the same article that you posted it clearly reads:



You must have gotten that quote from my post.


Of course I did, as I clearly stated on my answer to you. Did you even read it in the first place before going on and on about why this had happened? :banghead:

Look, you ignored the salient part of my post and the of article: Alameda County Sheriff’s spokesman Ray Kelly said: "The decision to keep passengers on the plane falls to the airline"

I get your point, you think airlines own their passengers and should be allowed to keep them jammed together in miniature seats for as long as they want if it suits them to do so.

I disagree. :banghead: :banghead:

Cubsrule wrote:
Does OAK have a typical setup with immigration and customs separate? If so, processing a flight with two officers probably is not possible.

That seems to be how they were processed at the end of the day. And so the passengers who had arrived at OAK at 10:43am were released into evening rush hour traffic.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:02 pm

salttee wrote:

I get your point, you think airlines own their passengers and should be allowed to keep them jammed together in miniature seats for as long as they want if it suits them to do so.



No one "owns" passengers in this scenario. I fail to see how these passengers could have descended from the plane if FIS was not available or had a backlog of travelers to process. What is an airline supposed to do in such a scenario of little staffing to complete a formality that is legally required before entry to the US? Dura lex, sed lex.

Honestly, not sure I get your sharp focus on an episode that happened 10 days ago, that has long faded from the news and that grabbed no headlines locally in the Bay Area when it happened.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:06 pm

dcajet wrote:
salttee wrote:

I get your point, you think airlines own their passengers and should be allowed to keep them jammed together in miniature seats for as long as they want if it suits them to do so.



No one "owns" passengers in this scenario. I fail to see how these passengers could have descended from the plane if FIS was not available or had a backlog of travelers to process. What is an airline supposed to do in such a scenario of little staffing to complete a formality that is legally required before entry to the US? Dura lex, sed lex.

Honestly, not sure I get your sharp focus on an episode that happened 10 days ago, that has long faded from the news and that grabbed no headlines locally in the Bay Area when it happened.

I merely made a post on the subject because I saw that it hadn't been posted about yet.
It is you that keeps pushing back over and over again.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:40 pm

dcajet wrote:
salttee wrote:

I get your point, you think airlines own their passengers and should be allowed to keep them jammed together in miniature seats for as long as they want if it suits them to do so.



No one "owns" passengers in this scenario. I fail to see how these passengers could have descended from the plane if FIS was not available or had a backlog of travelers to process. What is an airline supposed to do in such a scenario of little staffing to complete a formality that is legally required before entry to the US? Dura lex, sed lex.

Honestly, not sure I get your sharp focus on an episode that happened 10 days ago, that has long faded from the news and that grabbed no headlines locally in the Bay Area when it happened.


Right on! I think this was only on a couple of TV channels here and it was embedded somewhere between coverage pieces on the wild weather and Capitol Hill antics... hehe

It's almost like certain actors on this forum seem to want to promulgate certain ideas regarding various entities. The OP was/is clearly not observing this non-event through an objective lens...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13857
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:59 pm

salttee wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
Does OAK have a typical setup with immigration and customs separate? If so, processing a flight with two officers probably is not possible.

That seems to be how they were processed at the end of the day. And so the passengers who had arrived at OAK at 10:43am were released into evening rush hour traffic.


Maybe I missed it, but where is the evidence that two officers ultimately processed the flight? It's not unusual to have some CBP folks hanging around smaller airports when FIS isn't open.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:02 pm

Well now it's well established that airline employees think it's just fine to keep passengers trapped in aluminum tubes for as long as an airline chooses.

Look for future federal laws mandating $25,000 fines for each passenger not de-planed within 20 minutes of touchdown.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:37 pm

salttee wrote:
Well now it's well established that airline employees think it's just fine to keep passengers trapped in aluminum tubes for as long as an airline chooses.

Look for future federal laws mandating $25,000 fines for each passenger not de-planed within 20 minutes of touchdown.


As you have been told numerous times in numerous ways above - The airline had nothing whatsoever to do with this situation. Nothing. This was a CBP issue on a diversion. If there aren't enough immigration officers present at the point and time that an aircraft arrives then they wait until CPB can get to them. Period. End of story. Love it or hate it, it is what it is. [email protected] happens. You can rant on forever with your opinion but it doesn't change the fact that you are factually incorrect here. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but it simply doesn't apply to this situation. Yes it sucks. It sucks for everyone including the passengers, the airline and the customs officials. It is however the law and it will happen in this situation in every country where it occurs. International passengers will simply not be accepted into a country without customs and immigration processing. Not every airport is equipped with a secure holding area where passengers can wait until they can be processed. Without such an area they must wait on the plane.
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 3149
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:36 pm

You say one thing and Ray Kelly says another. I've posted the quote several times. The Sheriff's Dept was there on site, you weren't.
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:37 pm

salttee wrote:
You say one thing and Ray Kelly says another. I've posted the quote several times. The Sheriff's Dept was there on site, you weren't.



Were you?
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6264
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:52 am

I wonder if they’d had a better outcome if they’d instead diverted to SJC. AM has served SJC and may still do so seasonably. I believe SJC has some mid-day international arrivals so might have had Customs agents available.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:05 am

Why couldn’t they get a slot at SFO in 4+ hours? You’d think there’d be a way to fit them in somewhere if they landed at OAK at 10:43 am and there was no way to process them until later in the afternoon. Planes were landing at SFO all day.
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder if they’d had a better outcome if they’d instead diverted to SJC. AM has served SJC and may still do so seasonably. I believe SJC has some mid-day international arrivals so might have had Customs agents available.


They ended SJC service just 4 days prior.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B77E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
Why couldn’t they get a slot at SFO in 4+ hours? You’d think there’d be a way to fit them in somewhere if they landed at OAK at 10:43 am and there was no way to process them until later in the afternoon. Planes were landing at SFO all day.


That does indeed seem strange. There has to be something missing from the story that we don't know. Maybe it was a paperwork issue, timing issues, they though they could get them off at OAK and things got away from them? It doesn't add up, but without knowing the full story, it'd be hasty to pass judgement on what happened.
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:13 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
Why couldn’t they get a slot at SFO in 4+ hours? You’d think there’d be a way to fit them in somewhere if they landed at OAK at 10:43 am and there was no way to process them until later in the afternoon. Planes were landing at SFO all day.


SFO is not a slot controlled airport. That said, on that particular day (Thursday Jan 10th) the weather wasn't good most of the day, and with only 2 runways operational out of 4. SFO turns into a mess. Usually, in a scenario like that, most short haul flights are the ones delayed or cancelled altogether so as not to collapse the airport. I suspect that AM plane, once at OAK, fell prey to those operational restrictions. Delays of up to 5 hours were the norm around those 2 days (10th & 11th if memory serves).
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6264
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:17 am

KLMatSJC wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder if they’d had a better outcome if they’d instead diverted to SJC. AM has served SJC and may still do so seasonably. I believe SJC has some mid-day international arrivals so might have had Customs agents available.


They ended SJC service just 4 days prior.


Yes but they still have their seasonal SJC-MEX flight. They haven’t officially announced they are discontinuing it.

Might have been a better diversion choice.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:23 am

dcajet wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
Why couldn’t they get a slot at SFO in 4+ hours? You’d think there’d be a way to fit them in somewhere if they landed at OAK at 10:43 am and there was no way to process them until later in the afternoon. Planes were landing at SFO all day.


SFO is not a slot controlled airport. That said, on that particular day (Thursday Jan 10th) the weather wasn't good most of the day, and with only 2 runways operational out of 4. SFO turns into a mess. Usually, in a scenario like that, most short haul flights are the ones delayed or cancelled altogether so as not to collapse the airport. I suspect that AM plane, once at OAK, fell prey to those operational restrictions. Delays of up to 5 hours were the norm around those 2 days (10th & 11th if memory serves).


“Slot” meaning approval to fly one OAK-SFO flight. At some level in this process there are human beings making decisions and you’d think they could figure out why and how to prioritize this flight over some other 737 flight from DEN or LAX.
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:36 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder if they’d had a better outcome if they’d instead diverted to SJC. AM has served SJC and may still do so seasonably. I believe SJC has some mid-day international arrivals so might have had Customs agents available.


They ended SJC service just 4 days prior.


Yes but they still have their seasonal SJC-MEX flight. They haven’t officially announced they are discontinuing it.

Might have been a better diversion choice.


It's gone. There was no real press about it, but it was off the schedule a few weeks after they announced the GDL flight was discontinued.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B77E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
dcajet
Posts: 3950
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:18 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
Why couldn’t they get a slot at SFO in 4+ hours? You’d think there’d be a way to fit them in somewhere if they landed at OAK at 10:43 am and there was no way to process them until later in the afternoon. Planes were landing at SFO all day.


SFO is not a slot controlled airport. That said, on that particular day (Thursday Jan 10th) the weather wasn't good most of the day, and with only 2 runways operational out of 4. SFO turns into a mess. Usually, in a scenario like that, most short haul flights are the ones delayed or cancelled altogether so as not to collapse the airport. I suspect that AM plane, once at OAK, fell prey to those operational restrictions. Delays of up to 5 hours were the norm around those 2 days (10th & 11th if memory serves).


“Slot” meaning approval to fly one OAK-SFO flight. At some level in this process there are human beings making decisions and you’d think they could figure out why and how to prioritize this flight over some other 737 flight from DEN or LAX.


Welcome to SFO. When the weather makes a turn for the worse, the airport usually becomes a mess. During those days, at least one SFO inbound BA flight diverted to LAS to refuel due to lenghty hold times. Short haul flights (CA intrastate, OR, WA, NV, UT, AZ & CO) are simply cancelled or re-scheduled. No wonder SFO has the worst record for missed connections of all UA hubs.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
iflykpdx
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:42 am

Re: AeroMexico Flt 662, two passengers arrested

Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:19 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I wonder if they’d had a better outcome if they’d instead diverted to SJC. AM has served SJC and may still do so seasonably. I believe SJC has some mid-day international arrivals so might have had Customs agents available.


They ended SJC service just 4 days prior.


AM668 actually diverted to SJC the same time as the OAK diversion occurred. Fortunately they were able to depart for SFO prior to the four hour limit and no drama occurred.
Airport Management - UND

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos