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Max Q
Topic Author
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Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:19 am

This aircraft is working really well across United’s route system


The recent order of four more airframes shows there is a need for higher capacity
on many existing routes and more could be effectively and profitably utilized


With 22 frames UA has been able to replace the 744 fleet on most of the routes
that saw the queen of the skies before it was retired


However, at one time United has no fewer
than thirty five 744’s in service, they have grown significantly since that time and of course the merger with Continental



I think they could use another dozen at least and there’s nothing else in its capacity and performance category available until the 77-9 enters service
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:29 am

The 748 has equally impressive performance. I think United Airlines should order 5 or 6 748 for premium routes like ORD-HKG and EWR-PVG.
Last edited by blacksoviet on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ewt340
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:31 am

There's a high probability. It is definitely cheaper compared to B777X and they could get it really fast.

And no to B747-8.
 
EChid
Posts: 567
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:39 am

blacksoviet wrote:
The 748 has equally impressive performance. I think United Airlines should order 5 or 6 748 for premium routes like ORD-HKG and EWR-HKG.

I assume this was meant in jest.

To the OP, no, I don't they will. They were getting good prices on end-of-run 77Ws to add slightly more capacity. If they wanted more of them they would have ordered more than 4. As has been covered many times in this forum, using past fleet models to assess current ones simply does not work well. Planes have changed, capabilities have changed, route networks have changed, market demands have changed.

Besides, UA currently has 45 A359s on order, which they're supposed to be receiving from 2022 onwards. Plenty of capacity is incoming.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:45 am

Yes I think it is very much possible they will take more 77W's. They can be especially useful at EWR where increasing frequency isn't possible.

AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.
 
jfk777
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 am

United has to balance how attractive the pricing is from Boeing for having extra 77W today against what a new plane brings. The main widebody order at United is 45 A350-900, it could change some for -1000 or if and when orders more A350's get -1000's. UA has probably reached the number of 77W it needs with the 18+4 since some 744 missions have been taken over by the 787-9. The 787-9 operates all flights to Sydney and Melbourne from LAX, SFO and Houston. Some 77W flights are not 744 replacements but 777-200ER replacements at Newark to Tokyo and Tel Aviv. Many United flights need 40 or 50 Business First seats but few need the 60 from the 77W, the top dog of the UA fleet is where it needs to be.
 
sohanb82
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.


Assuming the 78J doesn't get more range for TPAC ops, the capacity difference between a 789 and a 77W is too big. The 78J can replace 772 TATL, and the A359 can compliment the 78J TATL, and the 789 and 77W TPAC. Flight like ORD-HKG need more capacity than a 789, 77W is probably too big, so this is a great example of where the A359 works.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:54 am

sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.


Assuming the 78J doesn't get more range for TPAC ops, the capacity difference between a 789 and a 77W is too big. The 78J can replace 772 TATL, and the A359 can compliment the 78J TATL, and the 789 and 77W TPAC. Flight like ORD-HKG need more capacity than a 789, 77W is probably too big, so this is a great example of where the A359 works.


There's a big difference between United's largest regional jet and their smallest mainline aircraft. It hasn't seemed to bother them. Why do you see this as an issue for UA but not AA?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:57 am

blacksoviet wrote:
The 748 has equally impressive performance. I think United Airlines should order 5 or 6 748 for premium routes like ORD-HKG and EWR-PVG.


What part of UA doesn't want to operate aircraft with more than two engines do you not understand? If UA wanted to order anything with more capacity than than a 77W, they could order a 779. It will have better economics than the 748 with slightly fewer seats. The proposed 777-10 would match the 748 for passenger capacity with even better economics, more cargo, and probably better range. Had the 748i not been delayed by the resources diverted to the 787 program perhaps more would have been ordered, but I doubt there would have been any more deliveries after the middle 2010's. Perhaps the 777X program might have been delayed a few years, but the 747 program would have dwindled anyway.
 
EChid
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:08 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

The 'UA will cancel its order' statement has been made many times, and yet there is not one bit of supporting information for it. It ignores the realities behind the original purchase agreement, as well as UA's current network. The A359 provides plenty of value and if there is going to be 45 of them then the costs attributed to adding another fleet type are well distributed.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:14 am

EChid wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

The 'UA will cancel its order' statement has been made many times, and yet there is not one bit of supporting information for it. It ignores the realities behind the original purchase agreement, as well as UA's current network. The A359 provides plenty of value and if there is going to be 45 of them then the costs attributed to adding another fleet type are well distributed.


Uh huh, not one word about the A350 from UA. Compare that to their excitement over the 787 and their continued praise for it. Everyone said AA would definitely take their A350's on order too. We see how that worked out.
 
727200
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:27 am

Let me understand something? Since UA has both the 777W and three different versions of the 787, why do they need the 350 besides to pacify those A-B wannabe CEO's on Airliners.net?

Reality is they have pushed the plane back twice and Kirby is on record telling the pilots that the odds of UA taking delivery is about 20%. That means an 80% chance of NEVER taking delivery of the plane. Sorry A-fans, the only way you will see the plane in UA colors is in an artist rendition.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:28 am

UA will eventually convert the A359 order to A321LRs. The 772s can be replaced with 787-9/10s.
 
marcelh
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:37 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
UA will eventually convert the A359 order to A321LRs. The 772s can be replaced with 787-9/10s.


If they don’t want the A359 in the first place, why order 45 of them recently?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:41 am

marcelh wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
UA will eventually convert the A359 order to A321LRs. The 772s can be replaced with 787-9/10s.


If they don’t want the A359 in the first place, why order 45 of them recently?


It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
EChid wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

The 'UA will cancel its order' statement has been made many times, and yet there is not one bit of supporting information for it. It ignores the realities behind the original purchase agreement, as well as UA's current network. The A359 provides plenty of value and if there is going to be 45 of them then the costs attributed to adding another fleet type are well distributed.


Uh huh, not one word about the A350 from UA. Compare that to their excitement over the 787 and their continued praise for it. Everyone said AA would definitely take their A350's on order too. We see how that worked out.


No, not everyone said that. No need to embellish There's been a variety of opinions on the AA and UA A350 orders but they were very different orders for very different airlines. UA actually ordered both the 787 and the A350, and they have an overall different route network that can support more diversity in fleet than AA can. I think the A350-900 would be a great complement to the 787/77W at UA. It'll be fun to come back and visit the order in a few years and see who called it right (though I don't think even UA knows for certain what the outcome will be).
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:03 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
The 748 has equally impressive performance. I think United Airlines should order 5 or 6 748 for premium routes like ORD-HKG and EWR-PVG.


What part of UA doesn't want to operate aircraft with more than two engines do you not understand? If UA wanted to order anything with more capacity than than a 77W, they could order a 779. It will have better economics than the 748 with slightly fewer seats. The proposed 777-10 would match the 748 for passenger capacity with even better economics, more cargo, and probably better range. Had the 748i not been delayed by the resources diverted to the 787 program perhaps more would have been ordered, but I doubt there would have been any more deliveries after the middle 2010's. Perhaps the 777X program might have been delayed a few years, but the 747 program would have dwindled anyway.

I think the 777-10 will match the capacity of the 744 but not the 748.
 
marcelh
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
UA will eventually convert the A359 order to A321LRs. The 772s can be replaced with 787-9/10s.


If they don’t want the A359 in the first place, why order 45 of them recently?


It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.

Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:10 am

marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:

If they don’t want the A359 in the first place, why order 45 of them recently?


It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.

Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:


Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:17 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.

Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:


Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.


That sounds sorta sad.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:23 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:


Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.


That sounds sorta sad.


I'm not sure how it's sad. It's just protecting market share. Do you think Coca-Cola would want to see McDonald's switch to Pepsi?
 
Antarius
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:33 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:


Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.


That sounds sorta sad.


Maybe for you.

Boeing management and shareholders are doing great.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
Jet-lagged
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:40 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
EChid wrote:
.


UA . . . have an overall different route network that can support more diversity in fleet than AA can. I.



That’s an interesting statement.

Can you embellish please, what it is about their network vs AA’s that can usefully support more aeroplane types?
 
EChid
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:05 am

727200 wrote:
Let me understand something? Since UA has both the 777W and three different versions of the 787, why do they need the 350 besides to pacify those A-B wannabe CEO's on Airliners.net?

Reality is they have pushed the plane back twice and Kirby is on record telling the pilots that the odds of UA taking delivery is about 20%. That means an 80% chance of NEVER taking delivery of the plane. Sorry A-fans, the only way you will see the plane in UA colors is in an artist rendition.

I'm trying to find a source for the Kirby quote, would be happy to see it if you've got it.

Why do they need the A359? I don't know, that's for them to decide given their economics, yields, and route preferences. Perhaps they don't. But all we really know right now they need a replacement for their old 777s, and that mix is planned to be filled by a mix of aircraft, including the A350. Perhaps they will decide they don't need it, or that they would prefer A321s (and are able to negotiate that contract with RR). Right now, there's an order on the books, a big one, which is contracted not only through AB but also RR, and there has been no indication of cancellation or any order that might fill the hole left by the cancellation. 4 77Ws are not going to do it.

It's the way that this is posited as fact by a.net instead of supposition that bothers me, not the possibility of them cancelling/changing the order.
 
sohanb82
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:37 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:13 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.


Assuming the 78J doesn't get more range for TPAC ops, the capacity difference between a 789 and a 77W is too big. The 78J can replace 772 TATL, and the A359 can compliment the 78J TATL, and the 789 and 77W TPAC. Flight like ORD-HKG need more capacity than a 789, 77W is probably too big, so this is a great example of where the A359 works.


There's a big difference between United's largest regional jet and their smallest mainline aircraft. It hasn't seemed to bother them. Why do you see this as an issue for UA but not AA?


AA's 789 seats more than their 772, 285 vs, 273, both in the config with premium economy. I do see this as an issue for AA, but that's for another time.

Largest regional jet/smallest mainline aircraft is not a accurate comparison. Many markets that support large regional jets/small mainline aircraft get more than one flight per day. This allows UA to match capacity to time, and offer an average of seats per flight that is in between the large regional and small mainline. ORD-ATL is a good example of this, all the way from CR7 to 739s serve the route.

TPAC is a good example of where an A359 will work. There is more than enough demand for a 789 –– look at loads now. Getting more slots in Asia to go 10x weekly to match current capacity with the 772 is pretty much inconceivable at this point. 77W is probably too big for many markets, and the four will probably stay in EWR/SFO (that's different discussion).
Last edited by sohanb82 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
EChid
Posts: 567
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:19 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.

Boeing must be in dire need to fill their production slots for the 787 and to create a market for the 797... :scratchchin:


Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.

That's re-writing history a bit. United offered killers deals on the -700 because they were old designs that few wanted and, more significantly, to keep the C-Series (and E2s, to some extent) out of the US market, which it was successful in doing until the DL deal. The -700 was never the right aircraft for UA's needs, and UA figured that out pretty quickly. The original 'deal' was an uber-aggressive response to keep a competitor out of the market, it had little to do with UA being a loyal customer. When they couldn't do the same thing with DL, they started a trade dispute about it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.


That sounds sorta sad.


I'm not sure how it's sad. It's just protecting market share. Do you think Coca-Cola would want to see McDonald's switch to Pepsi?


Out of all the airlines in the world, “they need to keep at least one good customer”. I’d argue that Boeing has plenty of good customers, but perhaps you meant if the US3?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:24 am

Antarius wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Nope, it's called keeping a loyal customer. We see what Boeing is willing to do for United with their extremely low prices for 737-700's and then letting them convert to larger varient. They need to keep at least one good customer.


That sounds sorta sad.


Maybe for you.

Boeing management and shareholders are doing great.


I’m aware of that. I wasn’t saying Boeing is sad. I was saying TTail’s statement was sad.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2524
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:25 am

sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
sohanb82 wrote:

Assuming the 78J doesn't get more range for TPAC ops, the capacity difference between a 789 and a 77W is too big. The 78J can replace 772 TATL, and the A359 can compliment the 78J TATL, and the 789 and 77W TPAC. Flight like ORD-HKG need more capacity than a 789, 77W is probably too big, so this is a great example of where the A359 works.


There's a big difference between United's largest regional jet and their smallest mainline aircraft. It hasn't seemed to bother them. Why do you see this as an issue for UA but not AA?


AA's 789 seats more than their 772, 285 vs, 273, both in the config with premium economy. I do see this as an issue for AA, but that's for another time.

Largest regional jet/smallest mainline aircraft is not a accurate comparison. Many markets that support large regional jets/small mainline aircraft get more than one flight per day. This allows UA to match capacity to time, and offer an average of seats per flight that is in between the large regional and small mainline. ORD-ATL is a good example of this, all the way from CR7 to 739s serve the route.

TPAC is a good example of where an A359 will work. There is more than enough demand for a 789 –– look at loads now. Getting more slots in Asia to go 10x weekly to match current capacity with the 772 is pretty much inconceivable at this point. 77W is probably too big for many markets, and the four will probably stay in EWR/SFO (that's different discussion).


UA can configure the 789 in a higher density configuration for routes that need fewer premium seats. That's no issue and a lot cheaper than adding another fleet type. UA has shown no love or excitement for the A350. They can't stop talking how much they love the 787. Delta will be happy to fly you on their A350. No need to be upset.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:25 am

Jet-lagged wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

UA . . . have an overall different route network that can support more diversity in fleet than AA can. I.



That’s an interesting statement.

Can you embellish please, what it is about their network vs AA’s that can usefully support more aeroplane types?


I just personally find their international network more robust and diverse, and of the two, UA can make much better use of the A350 family. Just my opinion.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
sohanb82
Posts: 46
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

There's a big difference between United's largest regional jet and their smallest mainline aircraft. It hasn't seemed to bother them. Why do you see this as an issue for UA but not AA?


AA's 789 seats more than their 772, 285 vs, 273, both in the config with premium economy. I do see thi as an issue for AA, but that's for another time.

Largest regional jet/smallest mainline aircraft is not a accurate comparison. Many markets that support large regional jets/small mainline aircraft get more than one flight per day. This allows UA to match capacity to time, and offer an average of seats per flight that is in between the large regional and small mainline. ORD-ATL is a good example of this, all the way from CR7 to 739s serve the route.

TPAC is a good example of where an A359 will work. There is more than enough demand for a 789 –– look at loads now. Getting more slots in Asia to go 10x weekly to match current capacity with the 772 is pretty much inconceivable at this point. 77W is probably too big for many markets, and the four will probably stay in EWR/SFO (that's different discussion).


UA can configure the 789 in a higher density configuration for routes that need fewer premium seats. That's no issue and a lot cheaper than adding another fleet type. UA has shown no love or excitement for the A350. They can't stop talking how much they love the 787. Delta will be happy to fly you on their A350. No need to be upset.


Im not upset. No need to go there.

UA needs more capacity than a 789 has, they don't need a high density config. With an A359, UA can have more premium and Y seats.

And, what love and excitement has United shown to a 77W, or 789?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2524
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:45 am

sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
sohanb82 wrote:

AA's 789 seats more than their 772, 285 vs, 273, both in the config with premium economy. I do see thi as an issue for AA, but that's for another time.

Largest regional jet/smallest mainline aircraft is not a accurate comparison. Many markets that support large regional jets/small mainline aircraft get more than one flight per day. This allows UA to match capacity to time, and offer an average of seats per flight that is in between the large regional and small mainline. ORD-ATL is a good example of this, all the way from CR7 to 739s serve the route.

TPAC is a good example of where an A359 will work. There is more than enough demand for a 789 –– look at loads now. Getting more slots in Asia to go 10x weekly to match current capacity with the 772 is pretty much inconceivable at this point. 77W is probably too big for many markets, and the four will probably stay in EWR/SFO (that's different discussion).


UA can configure the 789 in a higher density configuration for routes that need fewer premium seats. That's no issue and a lot cheaper than adding another fleet type. UA has shown no love or excitement for the A350. They can't stop talking how much they love the 787. Delta will be happy to fly you on their A350. No need to be upset.


Im not upset. No need to go there.

UA needs more capacity than a 789 has, they don't need a high density config. With an A359, UA can have MORE seats both Y, W, and J than a 789.


Or maybe they would just use 2X 787 if they need that kind of capacity. The market has dictated increased frequency over larger equipment.

Let me ask a side question, mods can delete if they want. Do you think Delta needs the 787? Why would they pass on such a popular aircraft? If you don't think Delta needs the 787 then that should also give you a reason for why UA doesn't need the A350.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
EChid
Posts: 567
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:46 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
UA has shown no love or excitement for the A350. They can't stop talking how much they love the 787. Delta will be happy to fly you on their A350. No need to be upset.

I don't understand this argument, yet you've made it several times. They are currently taking delivery of, and operating, many 787s. Of course they're talking about them. Their marketing department would be idiotic not to. They want the public to notice and listen, and have operating metrics coming in that many might want to hear about. How can you compare that scenario to them not talking about a plane that's not even due to join the fleet for another 3 years? That's not a measurable metric of how likely or not likely UA is to take the 359.

Also, *no one* thought AA would take the A350 orders. They were ordered by a different company, pre-merger, when the 787 was not even in the fleet plan (having been ordered by another airline that they had not yet merged with).
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
sohanb82 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

UA can configure the 789 in a higher density configuration for routes that need fewer premium seats. That's no issue and a lot cheaper than adding another fleet type. UA has shown no love or excitement for the A350. They can't stop talking how much they love the 787. Delta will be happy to fly you on their A350. No need to be upset.


Im not upset. No need to go there.

UA needs more capacity than a 789 has, they don't need a high density config. With an A359, UA can have MORE seats both Y, W, and J than a 789.


Or maybe they would just use 2X 787 if they need that kind of capacity. The market has dictated increased frequency over larger equipment.

Let me ask a side question, mods can delete if they want. Do you think Delta needs the 787? Why would the pass on such a popular aircraft? If you don't think Delta needs the 787 then that also give you a reason for why UA doesn't need the A350.


Because DL chose the A330neo/A350 combo. UA chose the 787/A350 combo. AA is going 787. The latter two took in firesale 77Ws. They each are going the path that bests meets their needs.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
boeing737max
Posts: 79
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:55 am

blacksoviet wrote:
The 748 has equally impressive performance. I think United Airlines should order 5 or 6 748 for premium routes like ORD-HKG and EWR-PVG.

You're joking right?
 
boeing737max
Posts: 79
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I think it is very much possible they will take more 77W's. They can be especially useful at EWR where increasing frequency isn't possible.

AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

UA will not cancel their A350s. This has been mentioned time and time and time and time again in multiple threads nearly every month. In fact, UA last year mentioned the A350-900s being a perfect replacement for the 777-200ERs.
 
boeing737max
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:00 am

727200 wrote:
Let me understand something? Since UA has both the 777W and three different versions of the 787, why do they need the 350 besides to pacify those A-B wannabe CEO's on Airliners.net?

Reality is they have pushed the plane back twice and Kirby is on record telling the pilots that the odds of UA taking delivery is about 20%. That means an 80% chance of NEVER taking delivery of the plane. Sorry A-fans, the only way you will see the plane in UA colors is in an artist rendition.

Where is Kirby on record saying this? Look I'm a Boeing guy and this sounds like great news, but at the end of the day that sounds highly unlikely given that UA recently said that the A350-900 was a good fit for replacing their 777-200ERs.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:01 am

boeing737max wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I think it is very much possible they will take more 77W's. They can be especially useful at EWR where increasing frequency isn't possible.

AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

UA will not cancel their A350s. This has been mentioned time and time and time and time again in multiple threads nearly every month. In fact, UA last year mentioned the A350-900s being a perfect replacement for the 777-200ERs.


My personal opinion is never say never. I think they’ll be a great fit at UA but they are also an incredible bargaining chip going into the 797/A321 negotiations that are sure to heat up.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Antarius
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:02 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Antarius wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
That sounds sorta sad.


Maybe for you.

Boeing management and shareholders are doing great.


I’m aware of that. I wasn’t saying Boeing is sad. I was saying TTail’s statement was sad.


How/why?

Boeing's supply chain is so good now that they can undercut the competition with HUGE discounts and still return $$$ in profit. The percent off list isnt important. The key is Boeing can do way below it and still make it rain.

IMO, not sad at all.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
boeing737max
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:04 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
boeing737max wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Yes I think it is very much possible they will take more 77W's. They can be especially useful at EWR where increasing frequency isn't possible.

AA cancelled their A350's and I suspect UA will do the same. The 789 and 78J can replace the 772 fleet. UA can have both high density and premium heavy configurations. The A350 just doesn't make any sense and doesn't add any benefits.

UA will not cancel their A350s. This has been mentioned time and time and time and time again in multiple threads nearly every month. In fact, UA last year mentioned the A350-900s being a perfect replacement for the 777-200ERs.


My personal opinion is never say never. I think they’ll be a great fit at UA but they are also an incredible bargaining chip going into the 797/A321 negotiations that are sure to heat up.

Can't disagree with you on that one. It is certainly possible.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:05 am

Antarius wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Maybe for you.

Boeing management and shareholders are doing great.


I’m aware of that. I wasn’t saying Boeing is sad. I was saying TTail’s statement was sad.


How/why?

Boeing's supply chain is so good now that they can undercut the competition with HUGE discounts and still return $$$ in profit. The percent off list isnt important. The key is Boeing can do way below it and still make it rain.

IMO, not sad at all.


I said his characterization was sad, not Boeing’s position or success.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
B764er
Posts: 144
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:30 am

The downgrade of UA's A350 order back to the smaller variant and their recent small order of 77W's makes it very clear to me that they are aiming for the 777x. They had a good sized fleet of 744's so they are going to need big jets to replace them. 777x is a sure shot for UA, I say.
 
bigb
Posts: 1127
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:48 am

boeing737max wrote:
727200 wrote:
Let me understand something? Since UA has both the 777W and three different versions of the 787, why do they need the 350 besides to pacify those A-B wannabe CEO's on Airliners.net?

Reality is they have pushed the plane back twice and Kirby is on record telling the pilots that the odds of UA taking delivery is about 20%. That means an 80% chance of NEVER taking delivery of the plane. Sorry A-fans, the only way you will see the plane in UA colors is in an artist rendition.

Where is Kirby on record saying this? Look I'm a Boeing guy and this sounds like great news, but at the end of the day that sounds highly unlikely given that UA recently said that the A350-900 was a good fit for replacing their 777-200ERs.


I would venture to say Town Hall meetings between management and flight ops....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:44 am

I don't believe UA will ever take the A350. The 787-10 can comfortably do SFO-TYO or ICN. A mix of 777 and 77X along with the 789 can do the rest. I just don't see any love for the A350 at UA.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
sadiqutp
Posts: 290
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Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:47 am

So,
Originally, UA inherited 25 A350-900 from the merger..
2013: deferred deliveries but converted to A350-1000 and added 10 frames for a total of 35.
2017: further deferral but convert back to A350-900 and added 10 frames for a total of 45. According to list prices, that increased the total value of the order by 11.3%.

Either UA envisions a particular role for A350s in their future fleet, and that vision developed overtime .....
Or, they are one of the least competent negotiators I've ever seen !
 
mzlin
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:52 am

I wonder what would prevent UA from purchasing the A350s after all and then selling or dry-leasing them to Star Alliance partners that already use A350s such as OZ, SQ, or LH. I suppose there is tight language in the contracts forbidding this?
 
smartplane
Posts: 1508
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:23 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
UA will eventually convert the A359 order to A321LRs. The 772s can be replaced with 787-9/10s.


If they don’t want the A359 in the first place, why order 45 of them recently?


It's a way to defer paying penalties. I look for Boeing to eventually pay the cancelation penalties as part of a joint deal for the 797 and 787 to replace the 767 and eventually 772.

Makes no sense. Defer - yes. Increase liability - yes.
 
Eyad89
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:47 pm

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:39 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
I don't believe UA will ever take the A350. The 787-10 can comfortably do SFO-TYO or ICN. A mix of 777 and 77X along with the 789 can do the rest. I just don't see any love for the A350 at UA.



I don’t know what loves means in business, but the statement of the second in command at UA might qualify for some:

"The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs," he says in a letter to employees today, adding that the oldest 777-200ERs in United's fleet will be 25 years old in 2023.


Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-440887/


And if increasing the order value by going to 45 A359s was only a negotiation tactic, then why would the airline’s executive announce that plan to their employees and public? That would be pretty poor management IMO.
 
RalXWB
Posts: 499
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:44 am

UA will have an all-Boeing/Embraer fleet and Boeing does everything to achieve that. Sad for diversity.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2524
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Will UA order more 77W’s ?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:06 am

RalXWB wrote:
UA will have an all-Boeing/Embraer fleet and Boeing does everything to achieve that. Sad for diversity.


I agree that Boeing has jumped in with both feet for United. But I wouldn't say that is bad for diversity. Delta will be mostly Airbus in a few years and AA is about a 50/50 split. And of course you have Frontier and Spirit who are all Airbus. Everyone has their preferences and you will have plenty of choices to fly on an Airbus. I love a uniform fleet and it will be nice to see a group photo of the 737, 777, 787, and 797 in United colors.

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