UA857
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Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:55 am

Would it be better if United shifted the Newark hub to JFK Given that no Star Alliance carrier currently hubs JFK?
 
Fargo
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:56 am

Why on earth would they do this? JFK is 1,000,000x more competitive than EWR. They dominate EWR, they ain't given this up to bleed money at JFK.

That said, they need to find a way to get into JFK to restore some operations, but hub? No.....
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:58 am

Newark has huge O/D that is high yielding. UA dominated the airport and has enough of a network to allow some feed to help fill long haul flights. On the New Jersey side, Newark has strong OD for short haul and long haul. JFK has strong demand for long haul, but LGA has better short haul demand. The split in demand due to the LGA perimeter combined with high competition at JFK since airlines makes EWR a superior hub. JFK also has too much competition. There are a number of airlines flying to JFK due to prestige, not demand, which hurts yields.
Last edited by Newbiepilot on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:59 am

How and where would they go?

Some of these questions....
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN MHT YYZ STS BIS DOH BLR MAA KTM
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:05 am

They would have to wait until the new Terminal 6 is built. JFK has had a gate shortage since Terminal 3 was demolished.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:14 am

It would not. No way, now how.
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9w748capt
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 am

I probably would've wondered the same thing when I was 16.
 
UA857
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 am

Is Star Alliance not strong at JFK?
 
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intotheair
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:19 am

Maybe not JFK, but I hear some space might be opening up at SWF soon. Think of the cost savings over EWR! All those elites beholden to UA will have no choice but to follow them up there!

Thank God Smisek isn't around to half entertain that idea.
Last edited by intotheair on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:19 am

No

And I don't know why they would need any sort of presence at JFK. They have a huge hub at EWR and they also serve NYC via LGA.
 
EarlyLateORD
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:20 am

Newark is such an odd special case. Its a gem of a hub, surrounded by a port, a garbage transfer station and misc industry, but beyond that are some of wealthiest suburbs in the United States and an easy transfer to NYC via Amtrak/NJT.

Adam
 
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FA9295
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:23 am

Antarius wrote:
How and where would they go?

Some of these questions....

Terminal 7, of course! :lol:

They'll just have to fight to the death in order to receive their previously-owned gates back from Alaska.
 
mysterzip
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:26 am

Let’s say we live in an alternate history, where JFK was chosen as a hub instead of EWR.
I think a couple of things would need to happen before that:
- LaGuardia would be a bigger and more competitive airport, giving JFK less of a competitive edge.
- JFK would have to be underutilized - so either PanAm or TWA would have to go before CO establishes their hub in EWR. Possibly, maybe PanAm or TWA choosing LGA or EWR over JFK. Somehow.
- EWR becoming more of a cargo airport.

It’s a good thought experiment. I don’t care how old you are or how experienced you are. Fun to think about what would have happened if...
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:28 am

This thread should seriously be deleted. How many versions of EWR vs JFK do we need on here.

0.0000000% Chance.

No room at JFK for a UA hub.
JFK is way more competitive, so why on Earth would United want to do that?
Think about this too, if UA abandoned EWR, you would be giving someone else a prime hub that commands some of the highest fares in America! Plus its right on Amtraks NorthEast Corridor!
 
IPFreely
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:32 am

United is the #1 airline in New York City, carrying more pax than any other airline counting JFK+LGA+EWR combined. And they do it with the costs of two stations, not three. I think what they're doing is working.
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:34 am

That would be a horrible idea. They even pulled out of JFK for there transcontinental service to LAX and SFO. There barely any gates available for all of UA routes to be transferred to JFK especially with it be being slot restricted.
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:53 am

Yes, Newark is further away, but it is way less crowded. Here, United can have the majority of the airport to themselves and practically control the operation, whereas in JFK they'd have little say because it is much larger and more difficult to manage.
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:22 am

That wouldn’t make sense. EWR is a gem of a hub, and they have huge market share there. They also command incredibly high airfares and have a fortress hub in NYC, which is something nobody else has. Of course, EWR also better serves North/Central Jersey, which is a very wealthy region. EWR’s population base is wealthier than JFK’s and slightly wealthier than LaGuardia’s. NJ is filled with major businesses and affluent suburbs; it is probably the single largest conglomeration of uninterrupted wealth in the US. It would make zero sense for UA to give up their excellent position at EWR and as NYC’s largest airline.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:25 am

FA9295 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
How and where would they go?

Some of these questions....

Terminal 7, of course! :lol:

They'll just have to fight to the death in order to receive their previously-owned gates back from Alaska.


The gates in JFK's T7 wasn't "owned" by UA in the end. UA were leasing 4 gates in T7 from BA (T7's primary tenant and operator) at the end, IIRC.
 
UA857
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:40 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This thread should seriously be deleted. How many versions of EWR vs JFK do we need on here.

0.0000000% Chance.

No room at JFK for a UA hub.
JFK is way more competitive, so why on Earth would United want to do that?
Think about this too, if UA abandoned EWR, you would be giving someone else a prime hub that commands some of the highest fares in America! Plus its right on Amtraks NorthEast Corridor!

Couldn’t United trade slots with JetBlue?
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:42 am

When you own a fortress hub you don’t just walk away.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
MaksFly
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:44 am

Newark and United is NJ and North East PAs airport. If UA left someone else would snap it up in a heart beat.

Newark is most O&D, not connecting.

And NJ people are not traveling to JFK, lol
 
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September11
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:53 am

EWR hub made possible by PeoplExpress
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sonicruiser
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:21 am

UA's EWR hub is the single most important hub not just for UA but out of all US hubs. They would give up every other hub before they give up EWR. Abandoning EWR would instantly become one of the stupidest moves in airline history of all time and this is not an exaggeration.
 
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:32 am

Would it have been better if UA had maintained JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX? Yes.

That does not mean, and never will mean, that EWR is not a phenomenally important hub. Other than PHL, EWR is the only fortress hub north of the mid-Atlantic (arguably north of the Carolinas given IAD's weakness as a domestic hub vis-a-vis DCA) and EWR is a larger, more premium, local market than PHL. Jersey is an incredibly important market in its own right, plus any traffic they pick up from NYC as a bonus. Other airlines would kill to have a fortress hub in such a high volume, high yield market. SFO and EWR are the two most delay-prone airports in the country, but they print money becuase United have a strangle-hold on some very high yield traffic.
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UA857
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:19 am

Was CO the largest carrier in the NYC Area?
 
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:41 am

[threeid][/threeid]
UA857 wrote:
Was CO the largest carrier in the NYC Area?


Yes, and until 2004 EWR was the busiest NYC airport in terms of passengers. A record it held going back to the Eighties and PeoplExpress.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
osupoke07
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:57 am

Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station. I know a person who used to be able to take a 6 am flight out of Tulsa, get to an office by 10-1030, get almost a full day's work in Midtown, and head home that night.
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:33 am

Why would UA and B6 swap airports? If you were UA, would you want to tell all these NJ frequent flyers they have to go to JFK now? If you were B6, would you want to tell all these LI loyalists they have to go to EWR now? T5 at JFK has only 30 gates (UA uses over 80 at EWR) and does not fit any widebodies (which UA uses just a few of). Plus doesn't B6 own T5? Do you know how *A solves the JFK connection issue? The foreign carriers fly to EWR too- no secret that the list of foreign carriers at EWR contains a lot of *A carriers- LH LO SQ TP LX OS AI AC CA SK
 
tpaewr
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:12 am

Should UA dehub IAD because it is really in Virginia? CVG decline as a hub is rooted in the fact it is in Kentucky.

Why are people obsessed with devaluing EWR because it falls a few miles outside NY state line.


It speaks of a intense ignorance of NYC and the market in general.
 
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:18 am

Kids stay in school and don't do drugs.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:37 am

Why? I wouldn't connect to or from Europe through JFK. The only reason I would even consider connecting in New York rather than a Eropean hub would be to take advantage of UA's connections to secondary and tertiary cities in Europe from their EWR hub. This can be accomplished without having to change terminals and growing through TSA screening again. It's much easier for me to fly from Texas to a major hub in Europe and connect than it is to fly to JFK, change terminals, go through TSA screening again, and make a connection. I can fly from my home airport to IAH with less than an hour connection time to a flight to EWR and not have to be rescreened.
 
EChid
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:42 am

I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.)
b) The fact that it seems odd that so many Star Alliance carriers service JFK but have no ongoing connection possibilities via other codeshare carriers.

a) has already been answered. EWR may be in poor old New Jersey, but it is *extremely* valuable and the more desirable airport for millions in the area. As for b), I have asked that question myself, and the answer is that *many* Star Alliance carriers serve JFK because it (had) the space, perceived prestige, and sufficient O/D traffic to support a lack of connectivity. For those carriers that want onward connections via UA/AC, they also have flights into EWR (see TP, for example). For others, there is Jetblue, who is more than happy to provide ongoing connectivity at JFK to many airports in the US.

I'm not sure if you've experienced JFK, but it's a hellhole, and especially poorly designed for transfers unless you luck out and they are in the same terminal. I try my best to avoid it at all costs. As a *A elite, I'm happy EWR is where I'm more likely to end up flying through.
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jasoncrh
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:07 pm

regarding b), most of the star carriers at JFK have lots of connection traffic at JFK - from JetBlue. It tends to be low yielding traffic. United has no interest in hauling low yield traffic to JFK only to hand if off to a partner. United would rather carry the good traffic itself, which it does at Newark and other hubs over the Atlantic. TAP, for example, gets way more connection traffic at BOS and JFK from JetBlue than it does from UA at EWR.

EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.)
b) The fact that it seems odd that so many Star Alliance carriers service JFK but have no ongoing connection possibilities via other codeshare carriers.

a) has already been answered. EWR may be in poor old New Jersey, but it is *extremely* valuable and the more desirable airport for millions in the area. As for b), I have asked that question myself, and the answer is that *many* Star Alliance carriers serve JFK because it (had) the space, perceived prestige, and sufficient O/D traffic to support a lack of connectivity. For those carriers that want onward connections via UA/AC, they also have flights into EWR (see TP, for example). For others, there is Jetblue, who is more than happy to provide ongoing connectivity at JFK to many airports in the US.

I'm not sure if you've experienced JFK, but it's a hellhole, and especially poorly designed for transfers unless you luck out and they are in the same terminal. I try my best to avoid it at all costs. As a *A elite, I'm happy EWR is where I'm more likely to end up flying through.
 
flybry
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:21 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
No

And I don't know why they would need any sort of presence at JFK. They have a huge hub at EWR and they also serve NYC via LGA.


United's current president sees the need for a presence at JFK. He called team Smisek's decision to leave JFK a mistake:
https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/
 
N766UA
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:33 pm

Have you ever been to JFK?
 
tpaewr
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:34 pm

flybry wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No

And I don't know why they would need any sort of presence at JFK. They have a huge hub at EWR and they also serve NYC via LGA.


United's current president sees the need for a presence at JFK. He called team Smisek's decision to leave JFK a mistake:
https://skift.com/2017/04/21/united-air ... -decision/



True, but it was in the context of the impact of JFK as spoke for the west coast hubs.

The mistake was JFK was dropped because it wasn’t seen as important from a NYC side. The error was not considering the value JFK added to the other hubs.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:53 pm

EarlyLateORD wrote:
Newark is such an odd special case. Its a gem of a hub, surrounded by a port, a garbage transfer station and misc industry, but beyond that are some of wealthiest suburbs in the United States and an easy transfer to NYC via Amtrak/NJT.

Adam


Yep. Plus it is even convenient for parts of the PHL MSA, so it gets traffic from that area as well.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:56 pm

JFK is much more capacity restricted in facilities and airfield. I’m not even sure the entire UA operation could fit with the current facility and airfield.
 
kipfilet
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:05 pm

Newark is way more convenient if you are in Midtown or Downtown Manhattan.
~30 min on NJ Transit from Penn Station, or ~20 min on PATH+NJ Transity from WTC
Public transit takes almost an hour to JFK (on the A train)

Traffic is bad in either direction, maybe JFK gets a slight edge if you are taking a cab as you avoid all the NJ tunnel mess, but you have to be crazy to take a cab to either airport unless you are flying really early in the morning or late at night.
 
digitalcloud
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:10 pm

No.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:42 pm

UA857 wrote:
Would it be better if United shifted the Newark hub to JFK Given that no Star Alliance carrier currently hubs JFK?

Other than UA, which star alliance carrier hubs EWR?

I don’t understand the reasoning behind the question. Can you explain it a little better?
 
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:43 pm

And while their at it, maybe they can flap their ears and fly to Mars.

Its a physical impossibility. Not worth discussing.
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Antarius
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:44 pm

Given the constraints at JFK, UA may be best off moving their EWR ops to TEB!

Let's discuss this too :)
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sw733
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:45 pm

Beyond all of the other reasons why EWR is, in reality, a pretty great location for an NYC hub (and, as a frequent traveler to Manhattan, my preference out of the three airports), but one that isn't touched on is also the cruise traffic out of Bayonne. Bayonne is a pretty big cruise terminal drawing tens of thousands each month, and EWR is by far the easiest airport for it. I'm sure United gets a sizeable portion of that traffic, both domestic and international.
 
EChid
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:50 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
regarding b), most of the star carriers at JFK have lots of connection traffic at JFK - from JetBlue. It tends to be low yielding traffic. United has no interest in hauling low yield traffic to JFK only to hand if off to a partner. United would rather carry the good traffic itself, which it does at Newark and other hubs over the Atlantic. TAP, for example, gets way more connection traffic at BOS and JFK from JetBlue than it does from UA at EWR.

EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.)
b) The fact that it seems odd that so many Star Alliance carriers service JFK but have no ongoing connection possibilities via other codeshare carriers.

a) has already been answered. EWR may be in poor old New Jersey, but it is *extremely* valuable and the more desirable airport for millions in the area. As for b), I have asked that question myself, and the answer is that *many* Star Alliance carriers serve JFK because it (had) the space, perceived prestige, and sufficient O/D traffic to support a lack of connectivity. For those carriers that want onward connections via UA/AC, they also have flights into EWR (see TP, for example). For others, there is Jetblue, who is more than happy to provide ongoing connectivity at JFK to many airports in the US.

I'm not sure if you've experienced JFK, but it's a hellhole, and especially poorly designed for transfers unless you luck out and they are in the same terminal. I try my best to avoid it at all costs. As a *A elite, I'm happy EWR is where I'm more likely to end up flying through.

Yes...I included mention of B6 in my post. But the additional insight is good.
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tlecam
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:51 pm

I understand the question, but not the premise behind it.

EWR is a very profitable, fortress hub. One of UA's headwinds is that most of its hubs are in very competitive airports where they don't have a fortress hub. EWR has the benefit of being a huge O&D operation and serving as a large connecting hub in one of the largest markets in the world. Sure there is competition for the NYC market with JFK in the mix, but I have to imagine that UA's margins at EWR are higher than DL's at JFK.

Also, how would JFK handle all of UA's EWR traffic?? Even if removing the EWR airspace creates some opportunities, I don't see JFK absorbing all of UA's EWR ops.
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:07 pm

How do you find reasonable priced housing for 10,000 workers near JFK??? EWR has NJ transit so the airline workers can get to work ..
 
VC10er
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:19 pm

Actually, I am afraid that IF United pulls off everything they are doing to create a top tier airline, especially designed for business travelers, and all the domestic and international routes they have from EWR, with many new routes coming...that United will soon outgrow EWR. It’s already always packed at TC, the highly restricted Polaris Lounge which is both glamorous and enormous is already packed at certain times despite the tight restrictions for entry, all the planes are just getting bigger, and always full.

Perhaps there will be some relief with the new terminal coming- but those in the know (big business fliers) that Newark is often closer than JFK.

United could be (in a few years) the BIG come back brand. I think if UA could add some flights out of JFK, that could be good for them, but moving what’s there now over to JFK would be like the population of New York City moving into Chicago!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3882
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:38 pm

VC10er wrote:
Actually, I am afraid that IF United pulls off everything they are doing to create a top tier airline, especially designed for business travelers, and all the domestic and international routes they have from EWR, with many new routes coming...that United will soon outgrow EWR. It’s already always packed at TC, the highly restricted Polaris Lounge which is both glamorous and enormous is already packed at certain times despite the tight restrictions for entry, all the planes are just getting bigger, and always full.

Perhaps there will be some relief with the new terminal coming- but those in the know (big business fliers) that Newark is often closer than JFK.

United could be (in a few years) the BIG come back brand. I think if UA could add some flights out of JFK, that could be good for them, but moving what’s there now over to JFK would be like the population of New York City moving into Chicago!


I think United will return to JFK someday, but it’s not a priority. The new United is much more opportunistic than before (buying up used planes, end of run 777’s, PAE, etc.) so I can imagine if the right slots emerge at the right price they may grab them up and add some token service to complement the other hubs.
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