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EChid
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:57 pm

tlecam wrote:
I understand the question, but not the premise behind it.

EWR is a very profitable, fortress hub. One of UA's headwinds is that most of its hubs are in very competitive airports where they don't have a fortress hub. EWR has the benefit of being a huge O&D operation and serving as a large connecting hub in one of the largest markets in the world. Sure there is competition for the NYC market with JFK in the mix, but I have to imagine that UA's margins at EWR are higher than DL's at JFK.

Also, how would JFK handle all of UA's EWR traffic?? Even if removing the EWR airspace creates some opportunities, I don't see JFK absorbing all of UA's EWR ops.

I think you've answered your own confusion on the premise.

Without the context that you've stated, the JFK question makes sense. People just aren't aware that EWR is incredibly important/valuable.
 
kipfilet
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:05 pm

COSPN wrote:
How do you find reasonable priced housing for 10,000 workers near JFK??? EWR has NJ transit so the airline workers can get to work ..

The areas around JFK are not crazy expensive to live in, especially if you go east into Long Island.
 
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:13 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
When you own a fortress hub you don’t just walk away.

This.

Yeilds at EWR are better than JFK for many reasons as other posters have noted. UA invites in select star partners, but otherwise they use EWR to boost yeild.

If anything, add a runway and terminal space to EWR. I wish there was a way at JFK too...
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EWRandMDW
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:17 pm

I think it would be best if KJFK reverted back to being Idlewild Beach Golf Course! Some time ago there was a post bemoaning the loss of UA from JFK where it had a "history". Let's go back and realize that AA, UA, and their predecessors had their histories in the NJ/NY metro area begin at KEWR at their original metra area "hub airport". That would suggest we can be rid of KLGA too! But nooooo, that won't happen no matter how sensible it would be! ;)
 
luckyone
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:33 pm

EChid wrote:
a) has already been answered. EWR may be in poor old New Jersey, but it is *extremely* valuable and the more desirable airport for millions in the area. As for b), I have asked that question myself, and the answer is that *many* Star Alliance carriers serve JFK because it (had) the space, perceived prestige, and sufficient O/D traffic to support a lack of connectivity. For those carriers that want onward connections via UA/AC, they also have flights into EWR (see TP, for example). For others, there is Jetblue, who is more than happy to provide ongoing connectivity at JFK to many airports in the US.

I largely agree with your post. I would just like to point out that TAP moved their service to EWR in 1989. I would hazard a guess that costs and a very large Portuguese community in Newark--larger than NYC--being the reasons. Star Alliance wasn't a thing back then, and from 1994-2005 (when they joined Star) TAP actually code shared with Delta. It wasn't until 2016 that they returned to JFK.
 
questions
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:38 pm

IPFreely wrote:
United is the #1 airline in New York City, carrying more pax than any other airline counting JFK+LGA+EWR combined. And they do it with the costs of two stations, not three. I think what they're doing is working.


Delta’s strategy at one point included “win NYC.”

What was the metric? How are they doing against that metric?
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:04 pm

UA857 wrote:
Would it be better if United shifted the Newark hub to JFK Given that no Star Alliance carrier currently hubs JFK?


At what gates???

IIRC, Kirby and Munoz have already admitted that Smisek's total retreat from JFK was a big mistake, but there's no way to go back now. At least, not without acquiring another carrier like jetBlue.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
slider
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:11 pm

Not this shit again.

C'mon mods....for crying out loud.
 
evank516
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:18 pm

kipfilet wrote:
COSPN wrote:
How do you find reasonable priced housing for 10,000 workers near JFK??? EWR has NJ transit so the airline workers can get to work ..

The areas around JFK are not crazy expensive to live in, especially if you go east into Long Island.


Nassau County, which borders JFK to the east is actually a very expensive place to live. They have the highest property taxes in the country, and you're not getting any decent place to rent for under $1500 a month. Heck that's probably even too low of a figure. How do I know this? I live there. I pay $1600 a month for a 1 bedroom apartment with about 650ish square feet. The other places I looked at were smaller and yet, more expensive! You know I looked at a 500 square foot unit and wouldn't be paying anything less than $1875 per month? Long Island isn't cheap until you hit some areas of Suffolk County which would then require these workers to battle the Southern State/Belt Parkway to JFK every day which is congested at all times of the day except for maybe 11 PM until 4 AM. OR they could take the LIRR which varies by location, but you're pretty much in the highest priced zones if you live in Suffolk.

The immediate neighborhoods surrounding JFK within the Borough of Queens also are not the safest.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:29 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Would it be better if United shifted the Newark hub to JFK Given that no Star Alliance carrier currently hubs JFK?


At what gates???

IIRC, Kirby and Munoz have already admitted that Smisek's total retreat from JFK was a big mistake, but there's no way to go back now. At least, not without acquiring another carrier like jetBlue.

Did Alaska take over all four of the former UA gates at Terminal 7?
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:39 pm

STT757 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
UA857 wrote:
Was CO the largest carrier in the NYC Area?


Yes, and until 2004 EWR was the busiest NYC airport in terms of passengers. A record it held going back to the Eighties and PeoplExpress.



That is incorrect. Your wording reads that EWR was the busiest airport from the 80s to 2004.

That is factually incorrect.

I will allow you to correct the wording and facts.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:13 pm

I would love that!! As a PMUA LAX flyer I always used United to JFK dince the 1990s. I loved UAs service to JFK both on the ground and i. The air! JFK was a great airport to fly into. They really need to open up JFK again co sider movi g routes from EWR. I now fly Delta to JFK instead and the service is not as good. Although the new United isnt as good either. CO just doesn't know how to run a premium airline with multiple hubs.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:28 pm

osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:39 pm

EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.).


Hang on, there.

This perception is real and not just some bizarre creation of "movies, etc." (What movie takes a stance on this question, for that matter?) You're welcome to argue the perception is misinformed; personally, I tend to think that debate boils down to "East Side folks+Queens" versus "West Side folks+NJ." Neither airport is particularly desirable or user-friendly, in my view.

B6 has a hub at JFK, as did PA/DL/TW at one point. So I don't think the question is absurd or has a self-evident answer. That is not to say I would ultimately come down on the side of UA hubbing JFK, for some of the reasons others have cited. I do, however, think it was a mistake to cut back the LAX/SFO/LHR flights to JFK. There have got to be a lot of financial services firms in midtown that fly personnel to those cities frequently and that want JFK service.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:09 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Actually, I am afraid that IF United pulls off everything they are doing to create a top tier airline, especially designed for business travelers, and all the domestic and international routes they have from EWR, with many new routes coming...that United will soon outgrow EWR. It’s already always packed at TC, the highly restricted Polaris Lounge which is both glamorous and enormous is already packed at certain times despite the tight restrictions for entry, all the planes are just getting bigger, and always full.

Perhaps there will be some relief with the new terminal coming- but those in the know (big business fliers) that Newark is often closer than JFK.

United could be (in a few years) the BIG come back brand. I think if UA could add some flights out of JFK, that could be good for them, but moving what’s there now over to JFK would be like the population of New York City moving into Chicago!


I think United will return to JFK someday, but it’s not a priority. The new United is much more opportunistic than before (buying up used planes, end of run 777’s, PAE, etc.) so I can imagine if the right slots emerge at the right price they may grab them up and add some token service to complement the other hubs.


Agree with that. If UA returns to JFK, it's likely it would be only JFK and SFO transcons and they will need to up their game on the product front in order to compete with what the JFK market has (DL, B6, AA, and even AS). Could see them deploy some flat bed equipped 737-MAX 10's down the line, but JFK isn't a priority for UA and the decision to close up shop there was truly idiotic.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:56 am

In a perfect world JFK, EWR, and LGA would be bulldozed to the ground and turned into parks, industrial space etc.

One mega airport would replace the three with ample room to grow, terminal space, and multiple runways for simultaneous takeoffs/landings.

There is, however, no such place near NYC or Newark to put such an airport, so we are stuck with the current ones.

UA isn't going to give up their fortress hub at EWR, the most that could happen is UA giving up some EWR slots and restarting some high yield routes out of JFK. That or they aqcurire B6 but I don't know if regulators would allow them to have two large mega-hubs at JFK and EWR.
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gsg013
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:25 am

In what way would JFK make sense for UA? The only thing I could think of would be for transcons from both hubs in CA (LAX & SFO)... The issue is the airline would not do it for vanity or presiege they would have to do it to make money.

I have heard many times that UA lost a lot of corp contracts once they eliminated JFK-SFO & JFK-LAX. That being said JFK is an expensive airport to operate out of and running an operation for just a few flights would be tough with the fixed costs of operating such a small number of flights. I will not say it definitely will not happen but I don't see a large business case for doing it.

If anyone has any reasons why they should do it and why it would work please reply.
 
N292UX
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:29 am

In one short word: No. For one, JFK is slot restricted so UA can't just shift its entire operation to JFK. And 2, UA and Star have built a massive presence at EWR. They don't have that at JFK. Plus at JFK, they'd face competition from DL, B6, and AA among others.
 
michman
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:42 am

UA857 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
This thread should seriously be deleted. How many versions of EWR vs JFK do we need on here.

0.0000000% Chance.

No room at JFK for a UA hub.
JFK is way more competitive, so why on Earth would United want to do that?
Think about this too, if UA abandoned EWR, you would be giving someone else a prime hub that commands some of the highest fares in America! Plus its right on Amtraks NorthEast Corridor!

Couldn’t United trade slots with JetBlue?


Trade with what? EWR is no longer under slot administration. Maybe UA could ask DL for a do-over for the now worthless EWR slots that DL traded in exchange for UA's JFK slots?

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... istration/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:48 am

Antarius wrote:
Given the constraints at JFK, UA may be best off moving their EWR ops to TEB!

Let's discuss this too :)

Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to SWF?

It would be an off-the-charts stupid decision for UA to do this, but at least it'd be a sign of respect for straight white females.

Let's discuss this too :)
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:24 am

No, and why is:

1. EWR is a fortress hub. Almost 4 out of every 5 passengers flying out of EWR is flying on UA...a number going up even more if UA's immunized JV partners AC and the airlines of the LH Group are factored in that serve EWR (EW, LH, LX, and OS).
2. B6 and DL largely split JFK (and DL has a second NYC hub at LGA for a lot of O&D traffic). EWR has reduced a lot of regional flying at EWR, because it needs the gate space for mainline narrow-body aircraft.
3. EWR is closer to Manhattan (downtown and midtown) than JFK is.
4. Compared to DL, UA is a high-J airline on its wide-body planes.
5. Terminal C at EWR, of which UA has exclusive use, has 68 gates, and even that's not large enough for UA, which has to put some international arrivals at Terminal B and, use airstairs and buses to board and deplane regional jets. The only terminal at JFK that comes close is T4.

I actually have to wonder why UA even considered merging with US while, when CO had only 2 big hubs, both were fortress hubs that remain such in the UA system today (IAH and EWR). (For AA, PHL serves a similar dynamic for East Coast transfer traffic.)

If UA even thought about moving, the PANYNJ would bend over backward to keep UA. Before PE (classic People Express) and then Federal Express (on the cargo side), Newark was basically a dead airport, but People Express built up a major hub at Newark, and then Continental expanded on it (even though PE was basically an early LCC; its headquarters were at EWR). FX retains a regional hub at EWR today.

UA could return to JFK for some O&D, but that's only because its EWR operation is bursting at the seams. That is why UA is reducing regional flying into EWR and moving it to IAD.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:32 am

slider wrote:
Not this shit again.

C'mon mods....for crying out loud.


Why not? The Port Authority could designate EWR NYC’s LCC airport and force B6 and all other LCC at JFK and LGA to move. Additionally, any international airline utilizing non-Boeing equipment would also be required to use EWR.

Once the EWR hub has successful moved to JFK, UA will then begin to move its LAX operations to ONT.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:43 am

"Let's give up our fortress hub and move to another airport on the other side of the city that already has some of the worst delays in the nation without our capacity being there to have way smaller market share!" - sounds like a good idea!
 
airportlover
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:47 am

compensateme wrote:
slider wrote:
Not this shit again.

C'mon mods....for crying out loud.


Why not? The Port Authority could designate EWR NYC’s LCC airport and force B6 and all other LCC at JFK and LGA to move. Additionally, any international airline utilizing non-Boeing equipment would also be required to use EWR.

Once the EWR hub has successful moved to JFK, UA will then begin to move its LAX operations to ONT.


But that wouldn’t be helpful for business travelers or travelers in Manhattan and on the Jersey side. EWR is more convenient for Manhattan and much of the tri-state area. It serves a wealthier customer base than JFK does, so I think it’s very inappropriate to designate EWR the LCC airport.
 
B737900ER
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:59 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.

Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR
 
global2
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:02 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.


NJTransit trains serve EWR's train station with direct service to New York Penn (Midtown). The scheduling may not always be great, but it is indeed direct. If PATH should ever be extended from Newark Penn to EWR, then there will be direct service to downtown New York (Financial District).
 
osupoke07
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:09 am

B737900ER wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.

Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR


Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.
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global2
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:21 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.).


Hang on, there.

This perception is real and not just some bizarre creation of "movies, etc." (What movie takes a stance on this question, for that matter?) You're welcome to argue the perception is misinformed; personally, I tend to think that debate boils down to "East Side folks+Queens" versus "West Side folks+NJ." Neither airport is particularly desirable or user-friendly, in my view.
.


Yes! As an East Sider, there is now way I want to use EWR. It would take me twice as long to get there just due to having to get over to the West Side through tons of traffic and congestion at the Lincoln/Holland Tunnels. The Van Wyck is a nightmare, but I feel I can predict that better. If I lived or worked in the West Village or Tribeca, I'd probably feel different. Nobody in Queens, Brooklyn, or LI would prefer EWR vs. JFK. Nobody in N.J. wants to go to JFK. I'm not sure how people in the Bronx or Westchester feel--they might be 50/50.

The bottom line is that the NYC metropolitan area is huge, both in population and geography--one of the largest in the world. We are actually quite fortunate to have a choice here. It means a lot of people don't need to schlepp twice as far to the airport if we only had one "mega airport"--especially when considering our history of poor investment in public transportation (thank you Robert Moses). In my case, it's UA's loss and DL & AA's gain. But UA wins for West Siders and New Jersey residents.

And once and for all, no we aren't going to close LGA!
 
EChid
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:06 am

global2 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.).


Hang on, there.

This perception is real and not just some bizarre creation of "movies, etc." (What movie takes a stance on this question, for that matter?) You're welcome to argue the perception is misinformed; personally, I tend to think that debate boils down to "East Side folks+Queens" versus "West Side folks+NJ." Neither airport is particularly desirable or user-friendly, in my view.
.


Yes! As an East Sider, there is now way I want to use EWR. It would take me twice as long to get there just due to having to get over to the West Side through tons of traffic and congestion at the Lincoln/Holland Tunnels. The Van Wyck is a nightmare, but I feel I can predict that better. If I lived or worked in the West Village or Tribeca, I'd probably feel different. Nobody in Queens, Brooklyn, or LI would prefer EWR vs. JFK. Nobody in N.J. wants to go to JFK. I'm not sure how people in the Bronx or Westchester feel--they might be 50/50.

The bottom line is that the NYC metropolitan area is huge, both in population and geography--one of the largest in the world. We are actually quite fortunate to have a choice here. It means a lot of people don't need to schlepp twice as far to the airport if we only had one "mega airport"--especially when considering our history of poor investment in public transportation (thank you Robert Moses). In my case, it's UA's loss and DL & AA's gain. But UA wins for West Siders and New Jersey residents.

And once and for all, no we aren't going to close LGA!

That was my point. I'm well aware, as are both of you, that the balance between the three major airports in terms of preference has nothing to with how nice they are or how much catchet they carry, but where they are physically placed and what routes they offer. The perception exists, and it does so within the minds of people not from NYC, because they don't think as much about the geographic realities of the place.

I'm not sure why both of these posts are calling me out when you're both supporting my statement.

As for movies? Lots of popular culture features mention/depiction of JFK. It's the 8th most featured airport worldwide in film (EWR doesn't even make the top 20, obviously, while DTW does), and has been a major setting in Catch Me If You Can, When Harry Met Sally, Goodfellas, Live and Let Die, The Terminal, etc. The list goes on. JFK was named and "featured" (it wasn't really JFK) in Crazy Rich Asians too, if you want a more recent example. EWR can make no such claims. It's biggest role was perhaps in Scent of a Woman - where it was filling in for Logan International. Like it or not, these pop culture references help push the idea that NYC has one major, desireable airport. That is part of the reason questions like these come up, and why the context is so useful.
 
global2
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:51 am

EChid wrote:
global2 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

Hang on, there.

This perception is real and not just some bizarre creation of "movies, etc." (What movie takes a stance on this question, for that matter?) You're welcome to argue the perception is misinformed; personally, I tend to think that debate boils down to "East Side folks+Queens" versus "West Side folks+NJ." Neither airport is particularly desirable or user-friendly, in my view.
.


Yes! As an East Sider, there is now way I want to use EWR. It would take me twice as long to get there just due to having to get over to the West Side through tons of traffic and congestion at the Lincoln/Holland Tunnels. The Van Wyck is a nightmare, but I feel I can predict that better. If I lived or worked in the West Village or Tribeca, I'd probably feel different. Nobody in Queens, Brooklyn, or LI would prefer EWR vs. JFK. Nobody in N.J. wants to go to JFK. I'm not sure how people in the Bronx or Westchester feel--they might be 50/50.

The bottom line is that the NYC metropolitan area is huge, both in population and geography--one of the largest in the world. We are actually quite fortunate to have a choice here. It means a lot of people don't need to schlepp twice as far to the airport if we only had one "mega airport"--especially when considering our history of poor investment in public transportation (thank you Robert Moses). In my case, it's UA's loss and DL & AA's gain. But UA wins for West Siders and New Jersey residents.

And once and for all, no we aren't going to close LGA!

That was my point. I'm well aware, as are both of you, that the balance between the three major airports in terms of preference has nothing to with how nice they are or how much catchet they carry, but where they are physically placed and what routes they offer. The perception exists, and it does so within the minds of people not from NYC, because they don't think as much about the geographic realities of the place.

I'm not sure why both of these posts are calling me out when you're both supporting my statement.

As for movies? Lots of popular culture features mention/depiction of JFK. It's the 8th most featured airport worldwide in film (EWR doesn't even make the top 20, obviously, while DTW does), and has been a major setting in Catch Me If You Can, When Harry Met Sally, Goodfellas, Live and Let Die, The Terminal, etc. The list goes on. JFK was named and "featured" (it wasn't really JFK) in Crazy Rich Asians too, if you want a more recent example. EWR can make no such claims. It's biggest role was perhaps in Scent of a Woman - where it was filling in for Logan International. Like it or not, these pop culture references help push the idea that NYC has one major, desireable airport. That is part of the reason questions like these come up, and why the context is so useful.


Sorry, calling you out was not my intention.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:57 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.


The 62, NJ Transit's second-busiest bus line, runs as a veritable shuttle from the airport to Newark Penn. There are 93 round trips on weekdays, 63 on Saturdays, and 55 on Sundays. The problem with extending PATH to EWR is that there is the huge Newark interchange between I-78, US 1/9, NJ 21, and US 22 (NJ 21 and US 22 terminate at that interchange) that would likely cause interference for Runway 11 usage (this does get used for smaller planes when winds are from the southeast, but hardly ever for mainline planes)...there is no room to really route the PATH around the interchange without tunneling, and the tail tracks after Newark Penn are on the wrong side for tunneling.
 
tpaewr
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:35 am

Pi7472000 wrote:
I would love that!! As a PMUA LAX flyer I always used United to JFK dince the 1990s. I loved UAs service to JFK both on the ground and i. The air! JFK was a great airport to fly into. They really need to open up JFK again co sider movi g routes from EWR. I now fly Delta to JFK instead and the service is not as good. Although the new United isnt as good either. CO just doesn't know how to run a premium airline with multiple hubs.



I am not sure the fact support your view. In the years since the 1990s UA went from 300% of CO size to just 18% larger at the merger. With CO being larger both in the Atlantic and Latin America.

I think those numbers show who didn’t know how to run an airline. We won’t mention who had the largest bankruptcy in the history of US aviation.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:39 am

osupoke07 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.

Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR


Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.


Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.
 
wn676
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:57 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR


Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.


Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.


And once again, both NJT and Amtrak offer service between the EWR airport station and NY Penn.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
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airzim
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:57 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Newark is actually not that bad if you need to get into midtown Manhattan for work. The trains run right from the airport to Penn Station.


No, they don't. PATH goes to Newark train station, not EWR. There are apparently proposals to extend PATH all the way to EWR, which I think are no-brainers from an intermodal travel hub perspective, but that is not the current setup. The situation is a major inconvenience and deterrent to using EWR, IMO; fortunately for EWR, the ground transportation situation is no better at JFK.


The 62, NJ Transit's second-busiest bus line, runs as a veritable shuttle from the airport to Newark Penn. There are 93 round trips on weekdays, 63 on Saturdays, and 55 on Sundays. The problem with extending PATH to EWR is that there is the huge Newark interchange between I-78, US 1/9, NJ 21, and US 22 (NJ 21 and US 22 terminate at that interchange) that would likely cause interference for Runway 11 usage (this does get used for smaller planes when winds are from the southeast, but hardly ever for mainline planes)...there is no room to really route the PATH around the interchange without tunneling, and the tail tracks after Newark Penn are on the wrong side for tunneling.


I believe the current proposal is to run the PATH on the existing rail beds to the EWR AirTrain station, as well as additional repairs additional construction of new stations, and ultimately a new AirTrain. I don't believe they need to tunnel/build around that interchange

https://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2017 ... ark_a.html
 
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airzim
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:59 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR


Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.


Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.


There's Newark Penn Station and Newark Airport Station. Newark Penn is in downtown Newark. Newark Airport Station is obviously adjacent to the Airport and connected to the AirTrain.

NJT and Amtrak both stop at Newark Airport Station.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:04 pm

EChid wrote:
I think this question is based on:
a) The misinformed perception that JFK is the more desireable, flagship airport of NYC (popularized by many movies, etc.)
b) The fact that it seems odd that so many Star Alliance carriers service JFK but have no ongoing connection possibilities via other codeshare carriers.

a) has already been answered. EWR may be in poor old New Jersey, but it is *extremely* valuable and the more desirable airport for millions in the area. As for b), I have asked that question myself, and the answer is that *many* Star Alliance carriers serve JFK because it (had) the space, perceived prestige, and sufficient O/D traffic to support a lack of connectivity. For those carriers that want onward connections via UA/AC, they also have flights into EWR (see TP, for example). For others, there is Jetblue, who is more than happy to provide ongoing connectivity at JFK to many airports in the US.

I'm not sure if you've experienced JFK, but it's a hellhole, and especially poorly designed for transfers unless you luck out and they are in the same terminal. I try my best to avoid it at all costs. As a *A elite, I'm happy EWR is where I'm more likely to end up flying through.


You got it backwards - TP does not fly to EWR just so they can get UA connections, they fly to JFK because they cannot get decent UA connections at EWR (as UA prefers to route people on to their own EWR-LIS flights). Most of the population of Portuguese descent in the NY Metro area lives in the Newark / Elizabeth region, within a few miles (often single-digits) of EWR. That is why, for a long time, that was the only airport TP served in the area. They launched JFK so they could get connecting traffic from / into JetBlue, but the direct EWR-LIS flight still commands a revenue premium over the direct JFK-LIS flight, as Newark airport is where most of the O/D passengers on that route want to fly out of. Pretty sure that if David Neeleman wasn't in the picture at TP and their relationship with UA was a bit better (remember, TP is not part of the Transatlantic JV with UA. AC and LH), TP would much rather have launched an additional daily EWR-LIS frequency than go over the hassle and expense of setting up a new base at JFK.
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Revelation
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:21 pm

wn676 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.

Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.

And once again, both NJT and Amtrak offer service between the EWR airport station and NY Penn.

Seems pretty straight forward:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newark_Li ... rt_Station says:

Newark Liberty International Airport Station[4][5] (also known as Newark International Airport Station[6]) is a railroad station on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) in Newark, New Jersey. The station provides access to Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR) via the AirTrain monorail which connects the station to the airport's terminals and parking areas. It is served by New Jersey Transit's (NJT) Northeast Corridor Line and North Jersey Coast Line and Amtrak's Northeast Regional and Keystone Service trains. The station, located in the Dayton neighborhood of the city, has no pedestrian access, bus service, parking facility, or drop-off area.[7]

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... on_(Newark)

Pennsylvania Station (also known as Newark Penn Station) is an intermodal passenger station in Newark, New Jersey.[6] Located at Raymond Plaza, between Market Street and Raymond Boulevard, Newark Penn Station is served by multiple rail and bus carriers, making it the fourth-busiest transportation hub in the New York metropolitan area. It is served by the Newark Light Rail,[7] three NJ Transit commuter rail lines, the PATH rapid transit system, and all 11 of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor services (including the Acela Express). The station is also served by intercity bus carriers Greyhound, Peter Pan, and Trailways, as well as 33 local and regional bus lines operated by NJ Transit Bus Operations and ONE Bus (Orange-Newark-Elizabeth).

Follow the links for more details.
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codc10
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:25 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
Yes, they do. NJT runs from penn station to EWR


Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.


Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.


Are we really arguing this? Many NJT Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line trains stop at EWR, then Newark Penn Station, then Secaucus, then New York Penn (Midtown). Some Amtrak NE Regional trains do the same with the exception of Secaucus.

PATH WTC line terminates at Newark Penn, and there are proposals to extend the line to EWR, but no work is actually in progress.

/end
 
slider
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:40 pm

compensateme wrote:
slider wrote:
Not this shit again.

C'mon mods....for crying out loud.


Why not? The Port Authority could designate EWR NYC’s LCC airport and force B6 and all other LCC at JFK and LGA to move. Additionally, any international airline utilizing non-Boeing equipment would also be required to use EWR.

Once the EWR hub has successful moved to JFK, UA will then begin to move its LAX operations to ONT.


Don't do drugs.
 
slider
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:09 pm

codc10 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
SurlyBonds wrote:
osupoke07 wrote:

Yes, I was talking about NJT / Amtrak.


Once again, NJ Transit goes from Penn Station to Newark Station. Newark train station is not the same as EWR.


Are we really arguing this? Many NJT Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coast Line trains stop at EWR, then Newark Penn Station, then Secaucus, then New York Penn (Midtown). Some Amtrak NE Regional trains do the same with the exception of Secaucus.

PATH WTC line terminates at Newark Penn, and there are proposals to extend the line to EWR, but no work is actually in progress.

/end


The issue of extending the PATH line to EWR was one of the key drivers behind Smisek getting in trouble with the authorities regarding PANYNJ discussions.
 
codc10
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:24 pm

slider wrote:
The issue of extending the PATH line to EWR was one of the key drivers behind Smisek getting in trouble with the authorities regarding PANYNJ discussions.


In reality, it was exactly the sort of political horse-trading that goes on regularly with many companies, especially in New York/New Jersey. The whole fiasco could not have come at a better time for United, though, as the overall industry performance was just good enough to keep Smisek & Co. employed while they continued to undermine the company's fundamentals with an ill-conceived strategy.

End result is the PATH extension to EWR is on ice, for now. The PA capex associated with EWR for now is the Terminal 1 complex, which is well underway.
 
N649DL
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:05 pm

airportlover wrote:
That wouldn’t make sense. EWR is a gem of a hub, and they have huge market share there. They also command incredibly high airfares and have a fortress hub in NYC, which is something nobody else has. Of course, EWR also better serves North/Central Jersey, which is a very wealthy region. EWR’s population base is wealthier than JFK’s and slightly wealthier than LaGuardia’s. NJ is filled with major businesses and affluent suburbs; it is probably the single largest conglomeration of uninterrupted wealth in the US. It would make zero sense for UA to give up their excellent position at EWR and as NYC’s largest airline.


EWR a gem? You mean a delay prone dump?

Regardless, no it would be a horrible idea to move themselves to a hub with way more competition especially domestically. This would only ever happen if UA and B6 merged.

It was also a horrible idea to leave JFK in the first place back in 2015. That was the last thing Smisek did before he got canned.
 
xxcr
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:55 pm

United is fine at EWR! even if they wanted to move their Hub/ops to JFK, there wouldn't be room for them.
 
airportlover
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:50 am

N649DL wrote:
airportlover wrote:
That wouldn’t make sense. EWR is a gem of a hub, and they have huge market share there. They also command incredibly high airfares and have a fortress hub in NYC, which is something nobody else has. Of course, EWR also better serves North/Central Jersey, which is a very wealthy region. EWR’s population base is wealthier than JFK’s and slightly wealthier than LaGuardia’s. NJ is filled with major businesses and affluent suburbs; it is probably the single largest conglomeration of uninterrupted wealth in the US. It would make zero sense for UA to give up their excellent position at EWR and as NYC’s largest airline.


EWR a gem? You mean a delay prone dump?

Regardless, no it would be a horrible idea to move themselves to a hub with way more competition especially domestically. This would only ever happen if UA and B6 merged.

It was also a horrible idea to leave JFK in the first place back in 2015. That was the last thing Smisek did before he got canned.


Lol that’s true. It is super delay-probed. I meant a gem in the sense that it’s a fortress hub in NYC.
 
UppinhereP
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:09 am

95 Posts later and we are still discussing NYC's Airports? The OP has been known to ask pot stirring questions, but all the fanboys came out to play!

This has been going on-on A.Net for 18 years now... Let's keep this positive, we've already lost good poster who had industry knowledge... :(
 
N649DL
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:17 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Actually, I am afraid that IF United pulls off everything they are doing to create a top tier airline, especially designed for business travelers, and all the domestic and international routes they have from EWR, with many new routes coming...that United will soon outgrow EWR. It’s already always packed at TC, the highly restricted Polaris Lounge which is both glamorous and enormous is already packed at certain times despite the tight restrictions for entry, all the planes are just getting bigger, and always full.

Perhaps there will be some relief with the new terminal coming- but those in the know (big business fliers) that Newark is often closer than JFK.

United could be (in a few years) the BIG come back brand. I think if UA could add some flights out of JFK, that could be good for them, but moving what’s there now over to JFK would be like the population of New York City moving into Chicago!


I think United will return to JFK someday, but it’s not a priority. The new United is much more opportunistic than before (buying up used planes, end of run 777’s, PAE, etc.) so I can imagine if the right slots emerge at the right price they may grab them up and add some token service to complement the other hubs.


Agree with that. If UA returns to JFK, it's likely it would be only JFK and SFO transcons and they will need to up their game on the product front in order to compete with what the JFK market has (DL, B6, AA, and even AS). Could see them deploy some flat bed equipped 737-MAX 10's down the line, but JFK isn't a priority for UA and the decision to close up shop there was truly idiotic.


If UA returns to JFK I think it will be more than just that. It will be at the release of EWR gates in favor of merging with JetBlue (I'm sorry, but I still think this is possible) or getting their former gate space back in T-7 or even AA's underutilized T-8. That's just me.

If they do add back, expect beyond a push to beyond LAX/SFO as those days are over. That was a move not reasonable aside 2005 when they launched it, but they sure as hell could use it for us CA travelers that prefer Kennedy. There is a tremendous amount of Star Alliance feed out of JFK. It's why I say Smisek was a stupid idiot for pulling out as EWR can't handle everything, a non-starter in terms of delays.

If they do add back independently, I would think at least mainline to former CO stations such as IAH (and moving the seasonal AUA flight from LGA to JFK), and then ORD / DEN as well. Maybe the former LGA experimental routes from the 1990s on CO like MCO too.

**As an "armchair CEO" this is what I would've tried after the merger between UAL / CAL. Maybe it's because I lack a thick glass ceiling over my head.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:01 pm

codc10 wrote:
slider wrote:
The issue of extending the PATH line to EWR was one of the key drivers behind Smisek getting in trouble with the authorities regarding PANYNJ discussions.


In reality, it was exactly the sort of political horse-trading that goes on regularly with many companies, especially in New York/New Jersey. The whole fiasco could not have come at a better time for United, though, as the overall industry performance was just good enough to keep Smisek & Co. employed while they continued to undermine the company's fundamentals with an ill-conceived strategy.

End result is the PATH extension to EWR is on ice, for now. The PA capex associated with EWR for now is the Terminal 1 complex, which is well underway.


Precisely. And the only reason, I still contend, that Smisek and company, were pursued, is because they were looking to take down Christie due to Bridgegate. The PANYNJ Chair was the guy they were trying to squeeze, Smisek was collateral damage.

Agreed on Term A. Certainly a long overdue project and I think it's going to be great for EWR overall. The train does need to be done at some point though, and I wish they'd capitalize this sooner rather than later to get the project going.

Say what you will about the ATC delays and operating environment in EWR, but it is NOT a dump. It's a damn fine airport, albeit limited by footprint, airfield capacity, but Term C Global Gateway changed a lot of what people thought about it and CO and now UA have made it a crucial and immensely important part of their network.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4585
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:03 pm

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

I think United will return to JFK someday, but it’s not a priority. The new United is much more opportunistic than before (buying up used planes, end of run 777’s, PAE, etc.) so I can imagine if the right slots emerge at the right price they may grab them up and add some token service to complement the other hubs.


Agree with that. If UA returns to JFK, it's likely it would be only JFK and SFO transcons and they will need to up their game on the product front in order to compete with what the JFK market has (DL, B6, AA, and even AS). Could see them deploy some flat bed equipped 737-MAX 10's down the line, but JFK isn't a priority for UA and the decision to close up shop there was truly idiotic.


If UA returns to JFK I think it will be more than just that. It will be at the release of EWR gates in favor of merging with JetBlue (I'm sorry, but I still think this is possible) or getting their former gate space back in T-7 or even AA's underutilized T-8. That's just me.

If they do add back, expect beyond a push to beyond LAX/SFO as those days are over. That was a move not reasonable aside 2005 when they launched it, but they sure as hell could use it for us CA travelers that prefer Kennedy. There is a tremendous amount of Star Alliance feed out of JFK. It's why I say Smisek was a stupid idiot for pulling out as EWR can't handle everything, a non-starter in terms of delays.

If they do add back independently, I would think at least mainline to former CO stations such as IAH (and moving the seasonal AUA flight from LGA to JFK), and then ORD / DEN as well. Maybe the former LGA experimental routes from the 1990s on CO like MCO too.

**As an "armchair CEO" this is what I would've tried after the merger between UAL / CAL. Maybe it's because I lack a thick glass ceiling over my head.


I doubt they will spend any huge amount of money or effort. If they can get 10-12 slots for the right price and use of a couple of gates I wouldn’t put it past them to get those and add a few flights to ORD, DEN, SFO, and LAX. Wouldn’t be a competitive market share grab, but just enough service to add an alternative for UA loyalists.

I’ve heard a rumor that OAK might see a similar situation soon, but we know how rumors are.
 
digitalcloud
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Re: Would it be better if United shifted their Newark Hub to JFK?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:19 pm

How has this turned into a two page discussion?

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