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DDR
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:11 pm

So, can EK get the same deal?
 
787X30
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:40 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The airlines started this game by taking the first steps towards consolidation, not the EU. The corporations could have prevented measures like this, they chose not to. There is zero remorse towards the airlines over this.

Airlines were privatised and had to make ends meet. You're shifting your point. First you talked about airlines "unwilling" to serve the regions intercontinentally, now corporate consolidation. The first effort to consolidate was from smaller carriers (SR, OS, SK, KL) to survive in the then projected single market from '92 onward. Just one managed to merge a large enough peer (KL>AF) about a decade later, the other three, well - were just unwilling to serve the regions, eh?

What you describe as undesirable actions by the airlines that need to be punished, in reality is a very consequence of the EG-then-EU air travel market policies. You can't (and simply won't) have private airlines doing the regions intercontinentally at SLF 55% and have them compete freely with subsidised national carriers. You can't eat your cake and have it.

Btw - what does QR (as well as EK & friends) do? One point zero hubs to everywhere else. Do they need punishment?
 
787X30
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 pm

DDR wrote:
So, can EK get the same deal?


The Spiegel news service reports them been offered similar terms, which they declined.
 
DDR
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:50 pm

787X30 wrote:
DDR wrote:
So, can EK get the same deal?


The Spiegel news service reports them been offered similar terms, which they declined.


Thank you for your response. Interesting. I wonder why they declined? Hmph.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:20 am

MoKa777 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Deal has been reached...

The EU and Qatar have announced they have signed an “open skies” agreement which gives all airlines from both partners “unlimited and unrestricted access” to each other.
The Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement is the first between the EU and a Gulf Co-operation Council state, and comes as Qatar is still experiencing a blockade by its neighbours.



Qatar, EU to sign open skies agreement
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qata ... SKCN1PU0HW

EU and Qatar forge ‘open skies’ aviation pact
https://www.ft.com/content/c4c774c0-295 ... 8ef2b976c7


Wow! This is really something to take in and process... I'm going to need a minute.

Same here. I have more questions than anything else.

What is QR giving up in other parts of the bilateral?

For small European cities, possibly great news.

I have questions on when other countries might go for open skies, but that is quickly off topic.

Lightsaber
 
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DLHAM
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:38 am

DDR wrote:
787X30 wrote:
DDR wrote:
So, can EK get the same deal?


The Spiegel news service reports them been offered similar terms, which they declined.


Thank you for your response. Interesting. I wonder why they declined? Hmph.


As far as I know they also wanted 5th freedom rights from all EU countries, this was denied of course.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 am

This is going to come back and bite the EU in the ass. It is sad, indeed, to see the EU feeding the fires of it's own destruction by signing this agreement with QR. The decline of the EU continues to pick up steam. Borders, language and culture being first dismantled, then progressively destroyed.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:38 am

Ok, now that I've had time to think about the implications:
1. Suddenly rights to DOH are worth more as a Wayport.
2. One big advantage of the new IST (open skies with EU) is taken away.
3. AUH is definitely at a disadvantage (scale matters for hubs).
 
sabby
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:36 am

Someone mentioned that EU is getting a good deal on Natural Gas from Qatar for this which will help them depend less on Russian Gas.
 
duboka
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:52 am

lightsaber wrote:

What is QR giving up in other parts of the bilateral?


https://www.aero.de/news-30894/Qatar-Ai ... luege.html

"In return, Qatar commits itself to fair competition, which explicitly includes a waiver of government subsidies to Qatar Airways."

If it's really specified, how this part of the deal is enforced, then it's a double bladed sword.

It's probably one reason, why the VAE declined the offer, too.
 
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CARST
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:07 am

This is great news. As QR is the worlds best airline, we can't get them quickly enough in all parts of Europe and every city that can support an A320 from Doha... also larger airports now can get additionally frequencies to get connected to all arrival/departure banks in Doha.

DDR wrote:
787X30 wrote:
DDR wrote:
So, can EK get the same deal?


The Spiegel news service reports them been offered similar terms, which they declined.


Thank you for your response. Interesting. I wonder why they declined? Hmph.


Their exact demand was to get the full rights to fly from any EU airport to other airports outside of the EU with full 5th freedom rights. So they could have basically started a base at an EU airport, and fly from there to North America. Quite a bullshit demand, of course the EU declined and the UAE answered with a very rude letter to the EU. Now all talks with the UAE are over. Back to the bilaterals. I like this.

Qatar was way smarter. They said we don't need any 5th freedom rights and just asked for them for their Cargo business. The EU granted QR Cargo these rights, deal closed, Open Skies, here we go...
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:12 am

DL747400 wrote:
This is going to come back and bite the EU in the ass. It is sad, indeed, to see the EU feeding the fires of it's own destruction by signing this agreement with QR. The decline of the EU continues to pick up steam. Borders, language and culture being first dismantled, then progressively destroyed.


You obviously have no idea what the EU is, how it works and what it means to be part of the EU. The selfdestructive Brexit episode is showing that exactly the opposite is happening. Suddenly the EU is speaking with one voice.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:38 am

sabby wrote:
Someone mentioned that EU is getting a good deal on Natural Gas from Qatar for this which will help them depend less on Russian Gas.


Unlikely for a couple reasons, not all on topic:

a) Gas is purchased by private companies, the EU doesn´t buy any aside of what they use for buildings, and energy policy is in the scope of the member states. The EU only coordinates National Energy and Climate Plans, but doesn´t make them.
b) Pipeline Infrastructure is already in place for Russian gas and those a) companies won´t underutilize those for an air service agreement, that is useless to them.
c) Even if imports from Qatar are doubled it won´t change much about the import composition
d) while new LNG terminals are build left and right, any substancial increase would come with a couple of billions in investment for new terminals
e) the whole liquefy/evaporate process is energy intensive and while an upside to Oil, to replace pipeline gas that is a lot of extra CO2.
f) the new air service agreement probably last longer than a gas deal
g) airlines would go nuts over such a deal, since natural gas is fairly useless for them.

best regards
Thomas
 
worldranger
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:45 am

Would this agreement infer that the UAE (EK) will also be given an Open Skies agreement. It is hard to argue for the opposite if the primary focus is on the consumer. It would let EK compete on secondary cities against QR/TK thus lowering prices.

Just look at Dublin now for those traveling to Far East - CX, EK, QR, EY, HNA.
 
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unrave
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:49 am

How does the ongoing embargo affect Europe bound QR flights? How many hours of additional flying time does it add?
 
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Aisak
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:06 pm

CARST wrote:
This is great news. As QR is the worlds best airline, we can't get them quickly enough in all parts of Europe and every city that can support an A320 from Doha... also larger airports now can get additionally frequencies to get connected to all arrival/departure banks in Doha.

DDR wrote:
787X30 wrote:

The Spiegel news service reports them been offered similar terms, which they declined.


Thank you for your response. Interesting. I wonder why they declined? Hmph.


Their exact demand was to get the full rights to fly from any EU airport to other airports outside of the EU with full 5th freedom rights. So they could have basically started a base at an EU airport, and fly from there to North America. Quite a bullshit demand, of course the EU declined and the UAE answered with a very rude letter to the EU. Now all talks with the UAE are over. Back to the bilaterals. I like this.

Qatar was way smarter. They said we don't need any 5th freedom rights and just asked for them for their Cargo business. The EU granted QR Cargo these rights, deal closed, Open Skies, here we go...


Carst. That wouldn't be 5th freedom but the 7th. 5th which is quite easy to achieve, even more in these so-called "open skies" agreements.
5th is the ability for an airline from territory A to fly passengers to territory B and continue onto territory C being able to transport (and sell tkts) local passengers between B and C.
What you describe is 7th (or standalone 5th). Under 5th all flights have to start and end in UAE as DXB-EU-XXX and not standalone EU-XXX that would require 7th (hardly granted)

Also it's not only he EU the one granting 7th freedom rights.... the other beyond territory should also grant those rights to EK.

In short. Even granting UAE unlimited 7th freedom beyond the EU, it would be unlikely that EK could actually have rights to start any route as the 3rd country would shout NO WAY!!
 
Opaque
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Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 pm

unrave wrote:
How does the ongoing embargo affect Europe bound QR flights? How many hours of additional flying time does it add?


Flight times to Europe are not impacted by the embargo. The only time it might be noticed to a small extent is if there are better Westerly winds over Saudi Arabia, but QR is unable to take advantage of that. The impact to Europe is minimal. The routes that are substantially impacted are Africa and South America. To Johannesburg for example you are looking at 30-45 minutes of extra flight time compared with the pre-blockade situation.
 
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CARST
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 pm

Aisak wrote:
CARST wrote:
This is great news. As QR is the worlds best airline, we can't get them quickly enough in all parts of Europe and every city that can support an A320 from Doha... also larger airports now can get additionally frequencies to get connected to all arrival/departure banks in Doha.

DDR wrote:

Thank you for your response. Interesting. I wonder why they declined? Hmph.


Their exact demand was to get the full rights to fly from any EU airport to other airports outside of the EU with full 5th freedom rights. So they could have basically started a base at an EU airport, and fly from there to North America. Quite a bullshit demand, of course the EU declined and the UAE answered with a very rude letter to the EU. Now all talks with the UAE are over. Back to the bilaterals. I like this.

Qatar was way smarter. They said we don't need any 5th freedom rights and just asked for them for their Cargo business. The EU granted QR Cargo these rights, deal closed, Open Skies, here we go...


Carst. That wouldn't be 5th freedom but the 7th. 5th which is quite easy to achieve, even more in these so-called "open skies" agreements.
5th is the ability for an airline from territory A to fly passengers to territory B and continue onto territory C being able to transport (and sell tkts) local passengers between B and C.
What you describe is 7th (or standalone 5th). Under 5th all flights have to start and end in UAE as DXB-EU-XXX and not standalone EU-XXX that would require 7th (hardly granted)

Also it's not only he EU the one granting 7th freedom rights.... the other beyond territory should also grant those rights to EK.

In short. Even granting UAE unlimited 7th freedom beyond the EU, it would be unlikely that EK could actually have rights to start any route as the 3rd country would shout NO WAY!!


Sorry, I meant 7th freedom. But what I wrote still stands and is correct. EK wanted full 7th freedom rights, for passenger flights that is. The EU said no.

And these 7th freedom rights are not as rare as you say. Just think of JetAirways flying India - EU (mainly via BRU) - North America. Or there is Singapore Airlines doing the longstandig SIN-FRA-JFK route. There are quite a lot of airlines going from Asia via London to North America. And also EK did it for a while, via Hamburg. But then Germany cancelled their 7th freedom rights and EK also cancelled the route to Hamburg.

Of course the other third country in question always has to grant these 7th freedom rights, too. But this happens very often, when both countries think that a route is underserved or there isn't enough competition. So on a route for route basis, one route at a time, these 7th freedom rights are granted most of the times. But the UAE asking for full and unlimited 7th freedom rights, that was too much for the EU. Of course they don't want EK "hubbing" at the home airports of their "national" airlines.

Qatar was smarter like I said, they only wanted 7th freedom rights for their cargo division. In the cargo business thats totally normal, just think of FedEx and UPS flying all over the world on such 7th freedom rights.
 
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CARST
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:56 pm

CARST wrote:
Sorry, I meant 7th freedom. But what I wrote still stands and is correct. EK wanted full 7th freedom rights, for passenger flights that is. The EU said no.

And these 7th freedom rights are not as rare as you say. Just think of JetAirways flying India - EU (mainly via BRU) - North America. Or there is Singapore Airlines doing the longstandig SIN-FRA-JFK route. There are quite a lot of airlines going from Asia via London to North America. And also EK did it for a while, via Hamburg. But then Germany cancelled their 7th freedom rights and EK also cancelled the route to Hamburg.

Of course the other third country in question always has to grant these 7th freedom rights, too. But this happens very often, when both countries think that a route is underserved or there isn't enough competition. So on a route for route basis, one route at a time, these 7th freedom rights are granted most of the times. But the UAE asking for full and unlimited 7th freedom rights, that was too much for the EU. Of course they don't want EK "hubbing" at the home airports of their "national" airlines.

Qatar was smarter like I said, they only wanted 7th freedom rights for their cargo division. In the cargo business thats totally normal, just think of FedEx and UPS flying all over the world on such 7th freedom rights.


After some more private discussion and succesfully confusing me. It's all 5th freedom rights. But the point still stands.
 
CALMSP
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:40 pm

KingOrGod wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I can see these cities soon getting QR's flights :
LYS, LUX, DUS, STR, AGP, MLA, LIS, BLQ, SZG.


QR tried STR and failed miserably with an A319. They then tried a tag on to the ZRH flight, and again, failed miserably.

I don't expect to see them back.


But they will be back. With an open book for Germany, we'll see STR/HAM/CGN/DUS in no time. Essentially QR does not fail as the focus is not on making a profit. Its focused on ensuring the Qatar brand is the most recognizable thing in the world.
 
airbazar
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
For small European cities, possibly great news.

I wonder how much demand there really is between small European cities to Asia and beyond.
My guess is that this will actually stimulate the market by offering people in those small cities convenience at a price point that they can afford.
TC957 wrote:
I can see these cities soon getting QR's flights :
LYS, LUX, DUS, STR, AGP, MLA, LIS, BLQ, SZG.

Humm Lyon, Dusseldof and Lisbon are not small cities. I mean, Lyon is the second largest metro area in France after Paris.

CARST wrote:
After some more private discussion and succesfully confusing me. It's all 5th freedom rights. But the point still stands.

The difference between 5th and 7th freedoms are minimal, even insignificant in this context so I understand why you would have been confused.
The difference is basically limited to flight numbers. If the flight number change between sectors = 7th freedom. If the flight number does not change between sectors = 5th freedom.
Take for example UAE205: That's both DXB-MXP and MXP-JFK = 5th freedom. If they were to change the flight numbers between the 2 sectors they would need 7th freedom rights. EK wants more 5th freedom from the EU because the TATL market presents a huge growth potential for them.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:47 am

Its not just flight numbers. With 7th freedom Emirates could just base some 777s in a EU city and fly to JFK, ORD and LAX for example, with these 777s never touching the ground of Dubai or even getting close to it.

But you are right, with 5th freedom the flight has to originate in the home country and have the same flight number all the way.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:23 am

Turnhouse1 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Terrible news for the carriers who will be hurt by QR’s tactics. I don’t know why the EU allowed themselves to be taken hostage by QR.


The European Union is not the 'European Association of Airlines' and therefore considers the benefits to consumers, the wider economy, Regional Development (no doubt considering provision of routes to places that aren't London, Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam or Madrid), manufacturers such as Airbus and Rolls Royce as well as the interests of IAG, Lufthansa Group or Air France/KLM. On balance this deal may well be positive for the EU economy.


Nicely put.

EDIT... sorry, missed the above coversation detailing various "freedoms". Rendered my dumb question... well, dumb :)
 
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CARST
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:32 am

CALMSP wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I can see these cities soon getting QR's flights :
LYS, LUX, DUS, STR, AGP, MLA, LIS, BLQ, SZG.


QR tried STR and failed miserably with an A319. They then tried a tag on to the ZRH flight, and again, failed miserably.

I don't expect to see them back.


But they will be back. With an open book for Germany, we'll see STR/HAM/CGN/DUS in no time. Essentially QR does not fail as the focus is not on making a profit. Its focused on ensuring the Qatar brand is the most recognizable thing in the world.


I call BS on this. Have you fallen for the smear campaign of the US3? Are people still believing something like this? It's the oldest AND dirtiest business trick, known since centuries, probably way longer; if you talk bullshit about your competitor and you do it again and again, and talk to enough people and make it sound scandalous, at one point a good amount of people will believe you.

QR struck a deal with the US government opening their books to show that they are profitable and don't need subsidies to survive. They are the worlds best airline from a passenger perspective. And once the terminal extension at Doha is ready for the WorldCup, DOH will be the worlds best airport again. Of course such a success makes a lot of people, especially competitors very envious.

If you fly QR, see that their planes are always full, see the amazing operation in Doha, it's a success story.

You also don't see them constantly offering the cheapest fares. There are others who are way cheaper and surely don't operate for profibility (Saudia, Air China, etc.). Even certain European airlines are constantly cheaper than QR. The only thing what QR does and what angers some people in the business are their repetitive super low J class return offers to South-East Asia. But they reduced these offers massively after introducing the Qsuites. Since late 2017 there haven't been any super cheap returns on the market. There's a good offer here or there from time to time, but nothing special compared to other major European, Asian or North American airlines.
 
787X30
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:59 am

CARST wrote:
If you fly QR, see that their planes are always full, see the amazing operation in Doha, it's a success story.

Even in November.

CARST wrote:
You also don't see them constantly offering the cheapest fares.

They're profitable after all.

Profitability = always full at not constantly the cheapest - and being simply the best.

You have not fallen for AAB, have you?
 
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CARST
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:08 am

787X30 wrote:
You have not fallen for AAB, have you?


I just fly them a few times each year and go by my observations, as well as what other frequent fliers tell me. This might not be a statistically significant sample, but I feel like I can make an educated guess here. And that should be better than all the armchair CEOs here, who've never flown them or seen their operation in Doha, but "know damn sure that they get subsidies", based on what a competitor tells to the media and his local politicians.
 
787X30
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Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:33 am

Foistering the word "damn", which has not been used in this thread, on your co-disputants and calling them (in contrast to you) "armchair", is not some sort of smear, is it?
 
KingOrGod
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:20 pm

CALMSP wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:
TC957 wrote:
I can see these cities soon getting QR's flights :
LYS, LUX, DUS, STR, AGP, MLA, LIS, BLQ, SZG.


QR tried STR and failed miserably with an A319. They then tried a tag on to the ZRH flight, and again, failed miserably.

I don't expect to see them back.


But they will be back. With an open book for Germany, we'll see STR/HAM/CGN/DUS in no time. Essentially QR does not fail as the focus is not on making a profit. Its focused on ensuring the Qatar brand is the most recognizable thing in the world.


And loss-making airlines with deep government pockets should not be allowed in here at all. Local airlines fail because they are unable to make a profit, but foreign airlines propped up by their government with unlimited access is OK. Another dumb decision here. They're on a roll.
 
SCQ83
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:32 pm

TC957 wrote:
I can see these cities soon getting QR's flights :
LYS, LUX, DUS, STR, AGP, MLA, LIS, BLQ, SZG.


QR already flies to Málaga and is starting Malta in S19
 
CALMSP
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:33 pm

CARST wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:

QR tried STR and failed miserably with an A319. They then tried a tag on to the ZRH flight, and again, failed miserably.

I don't expect to see them back.


But they will be back. With an open book for Germany, we'll see STR/HAM/CGN/DUS in no time. Essentially QR does not fail as the focus is not on making a profit. Its focused on ensuring the Qatar brand is the most recognizable thing in the world.


I call BS on this. Have you fallen for the smear campaign of the US3? Are people still believing something like this? It's the oldest AND dirtiest business trick, known since centuries, probably way longer; if you talk bullshit about your competitor and you do it again and again, and talk to enough people and make it sound scandalous, at one point a good amount of people will believe you.

QR struck a deal with the US government opening their books to show that they are profitable and don't need subsidies to survive. They are the worlds best airline from a passenger perspective. And once the terminal extension at Doha is ready for the WorldCup, DOH will be the worlds best airport again. Of course such a success makes a lot of people, especially competitors very envious.

If you fly QR, see that their planes are always full, see the amazing operation in Doha, it's a success story.

You also don't see them constantly offering the cheapest fares. There are others who are way cheaper and surely don't operate for profibility (Saudia, Air China, etc.). Even certain European airlines are constantly cheaper than QR. The only thing what QR does and what angers some people in the business are their repetitive super low J class return offers to South-East Asia. But they reduced these offers massively after introducing the Qsuites. Since late 2017 there haven't been any super cheap returns on the market. There's a good offer here or there from time to time, but nothing special compared to other major European, Asian or North American airlines.



full airplanes? seriously? You can take a quick look just at LHR-DOH and see their planes are not full. When you need to section off the entire front 50% of the 380 and jam everyone in the back section (from LHR mind you), it says something. Take a look at hte info from CWL-DOH.............empty.

Every QR flight I have been on has been empty. (maybe thats why my oneworld availability is always available...hmmmm...)
 
SCQ83
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Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:46 pm

Btw I see listed many small airports which are not currently served by QR just because market reasons. AFAIK QR does not have any limitation to Spain.

France and Germany are the two countries that are "problematic" for the ME3. With this Open Skies agreement, I think we will see straight away LYS and DUS. And maybe another French city (TLS more likely but also BOD, NTE or MRS).
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:38 pm

 
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lightsaber
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:27 am

I'm having trouble believing QR would survive a proper audit. When is the first review. :devil:

airbazar wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For small European cities, possibly great news.

I wonder how much demand there really is between small European cities to Asia and beyond.
My guess is that this will actually stimulate the market by offering people in those small cities convenience at a price point that they can afford.

I'm going to focus just on small cities. DOH is within A220 range (3300nm for -100 in 2 class, minus winds, reserves, etc.). Say 2500nm actual?
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=2500nm%40doh

So using very low cost per flight aircraft, most of Germany, Austria, Italy, etc. What is lost is Britain, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, France, Norway, Sweden, and coastal Germany. So yes, I think many small cities could benefit due to the tiny cost per flight to add service.

But this means Doha has to up their game as an international business center. It quickly goes off topic, but Dubai mopped up the early growth. How is Doha going to out Dubai Dubai in attracting international business to stimulate O&D traffic.

Lightsaber
 
KingOrGod
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Re: EU to grant QR unrestricted access to EU airports

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:22 am

CARST wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
KingOrGod wrote:

QR tried STR and failed miserably with an A319. They then tried a tag on to the ZRH flight, and again, failed miserably.

I don't expect to see them back.


But they will be back. With an open book for Germany, we'll see STR/HAM/CGN/DUS in no time. Essentially QR does not fail as the focus is not on making a profit. Its focused on ensuring the Qatar brand is the most recognizable thing in the world.


I call BS on this. Have you fallen for the smear campaign of the US3? Are people still believing something like this? It's the oldest AND dirtiest business trick, known since centuries, probably way longer; if you talk bullshit about your competitor and you do it again and again, and talk to enough people and make it sound scandalous, at one point a good amount of people will believe you.

QR struck a deal with the US government opening their books to show that they are profitable and don't need subsidies to survive. They are the worlds best airline from a passenger perspective. And once the terminal extension at Doha is ready for the WorldCup, DOH will be the worlds best airport again. Of course such a success makes a lot of people, especially competitors very envious.

If you fly QR, see that their planes are always full, see the amazing operation in Doha, it's a success story.

You also don't see them constantly offering the cheapest fares. There are others who are way cheaper and surely don't operate for profibility (Saudia, Air China, etc.). Even certain European airlines are constantly cheaper than QR. The only thing what QR does and what angers some people in the business are their repetitive super low J class return offers to South-East Asia. But they reduced these offers massively after introducing the Qsuites. Since late 2017 there haven't been any super cheap returns on the market. There's a good offer here or there from time to time, but nothing special compared to other major European, Asian or North American airlines.


That's fine, call BS on what you want. It's your prerogative.

I don't have to buy into anything -I am capable of thought and analysis all by myself thank you.

Having been involved (ie lived and worked in the aviation sector in the region ) - I call BS that they are printing money from pax in seats. I am not angered by anything QR does except the way they treat their staff, and that is a fact, not an assumption. But the Airline as a cash machine, nawww. Sorry.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2316
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Updated: EU and QR sign open skies

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:34 am

DL747400 wrote:
This is going to come back and bite the EU in the ass. It is sad, indeed, to see the EU feeding the fires of it's own destruction by signing this agreement with QR. The decline of the EU continues to pick up steam. Borders, language and culture being first dismantled, then progressively destroyed.


I feel the same way.

Such a short sighted move.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:54 am

Excellent news.

Guess AAB wasn't joking when he said the blockade frees up room for growth.
 
User avatar
3rdGen
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:19 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:24 am

The issue is that QR already flies to every major European City and many secondary ones. I simply don't see where else they would want to go. They might end up taking pax from the cities they already fly to rather than adding new capacity.

The only real benefit would be adding capacity to the major cities i.e. London, Paris through secondary airports e.g. Gatwick, Orly
 
q8flyer
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:50 pm

3rdGen wrote:
The issue is that QR already flies to every major European City and many secondary ones. I simply don't see where else they would want to go. They might end up taking pax from the cities they already fly to rather than adding new capacity.

The only real benefit would be adding capacity to the major cities i.e. London, Paris through secondary airports e.g. Gatwick, Orly


I think there is great potential here.
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3676
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:56 pm

q8flyer wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
The issue is that QR already flies to every major European City and many secondary ones. I simply don't see where else they would want to go. They might end up taking pax from the cities they already fly to rather than adding new capacity.

The only real benefit would be adding capacity to the major cities i.e. London, Paris through secondary airports e.g. Gatwick, Orly


I think there is great potential here.
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.


QR could have more pax flights, but additional slots are being utilized by QR freighters. (2x daily DOH and 2x weekly ORD)
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:53 pm

q8flyer wrote:
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.


No open slots at AMS.
 
myki
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:43 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:06 pm

q8flyer wrote:
3rdGen wrote:
The issue is that QR already flies to every major European City and many secondary ones. I simply don't see where else they would want to go. They might end up taking pax from the cities they already fly to rather than adding new capacity.

The only real benefit would be adding capacity to the major cities i.e. London, Paris through secondary airports e.g. Gatwick, Orly


I think there is great potential here.
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.

Do they perhaps want to 'test the waters' with a 3-day a week scenario? If there are planes lying around due to blockade, what there's loads of options. Is there a market? That's up to them to decide.

Riga, Gdansk, Paphos, Catania, Tallinn, Naples, Chisinau, Bratislava (ok that one might be pointless with Vienna around the corner), Malmo (again, hmmm, Copenhagen is a train ride away) ... loads of options - and some - so who knows.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:37 pm

They could also add more seasonal destinations,like they have with Mykonos,Bodrum,Antalya and could also fly to Santorini,Rhodes,Corfu,Crete,Dubrovnik,Split,Alicante,Valencia etc..
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2719
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:08 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
They could also add more seasonal destinations,like they have with Mykonos,Bodrum,Antalya and could also fly to Santorini,Rhodes,Corfu,Crete,Dubrovnik,Split,Alicante,Valencia etc..

Most of those places attract primarily European tourists and, to a lesser extent, European business travellers and VFR traffic, though. I doubt that many people east of Doha want to visit Corfu or Bodrum. They're nice places, of course, but nobody's taking a 10 hour flight to relax by the meditteranean sea.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8688
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:16 pm

mxaxai wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
They could also add more seasonal destinations,like they have with Mykonos,Bodrum,Antalya and could also fly to Santorini,Rhodes,Corfu,Crete,Dubrovnik,Split,Alicante,Valencia etc..

Most of those places attract primarily European tourists and, to a lesser extent, European business travellers and VFR traffic, though. I doubt that many people east of Doha want to visit Corfu or Bodrum. They're nice places, of course, but nobody's taking a 10 hour flight to relax by the meditteranean sea.


You'd be surprised. Santorini and Dubrovnik attract large numbers of tourists from Asia and Australia. Obviously not anywhere near as many visitors comes from Asia as Europe, but enough to fill an A320 in high season.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:22 am

[quote="mxaxai"][quote="marcogr12"]They could also add more seasonal destinations,like they have with Mykonos,Bodrum,Antalya and could also fly to Santorini,Rhodes,Corfu,Crete,Dubrovnik,Split,Alicante,Valencia etc..[/quote]
Most of those places attract primarily European tourists and, to a lesser extent, European business travellers and VFR traffic, though. I doubt that many people east of Doha want to visit Corfu or Bodrum. They're nice places, of course, but nobody's taking a 10 hour flight to relax by the meditteranean sea.[/quote]
QR already flies to BJV,AYT,JMK,ADB,AGP...These flights come packed with high-end tourists to enjoy sea n sun..And they re on a 4-5h flights...So the places i suggested are not improbable dests..As for your last comment,do u have any idea how many millions of tourists come just in the summer to the Med from US and Canada on 10h flights?Athens,Malaga,Nice,Venice,Barcelona are flooded with tourists who also proceed to visit Greek isles, Sicily ,Balearics, S.Turkey on cruiseships or flying..And this year DBV and NAP will also get seasonal direct flights...And then there are the chinese,the japanese and the australians..So the potential is there..
 
q8flyer
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:15 am

WPvsMW wrote:
q8flyer wrote:
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.


No open slots at AMS.


I assume they could buy slots similar to what Emirates did in LHR?
Alders agrrement expires in 2020 and there should be growth prospects. I think this route is underserved and another flight would connect well within their Asian network.
 
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MillwallSean
Posts: 990
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:03 am

What does the EU get in return?
Ahh, service to what 50 European destinations and counting. Not many regions gets 1 stops to virtually every Asian/Oceania/africa destination.
They get regulatory convergence. Aka Qatar will adhere to EASA, align its safety, technical & meteorological standards and solutions etc with EASA. The larger the market s for European standards the easier it si for European business. While getting rid of the local owns 50% of the business rule probably dont affect most EU airlines, its another symbolic step.

With that said, the chances of Qatar passing an audit feels slim. While Etihad and Emirates do play by auditable financial rules, Qatar have their own rules and regulations and audits, well, they also follow their own regulations. But thats just my guess. I enjoy QR, great product and Doha airport isnt bad these days.
 
User avatar
DLHAM
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:13 pm

3rdGen wrote:
The issue is that QR already flies to every major European City and many secondary ones. I simply don't see where else they would want to go. They might end up taking pax from the cities they already fly to rather than adding new capacity.

The only real benefit would be adding capacity to the major cities i.e. London, Paris through secondary airports e.g. Gatwick, Orly


They are not serving Hamburg, the EUs 7th largest city. Also Düsseldorf, located in the high populated Rhine-Ruhr Area. Those two cities for example are now open for Qatar.
Until now Qatar was only allowed 35 weekly flights to Germany, now they can - additionally - also increase the frequency to existing destinations as well if desired.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:33 pm

DLHAM wrote:
They are not serving Hamburg, the EUs 7th largest city. Also Düsseldorf, located in the high populated Rhine-Ruhr Area. Those two cities for example are now open for Qatar.


With Emirates "doing" Hamburg by A380 do you think there is enough demand remaining?
( same goes for Duesseldorf with 2 flights per day.)
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Updated: EU and Qatar sign open skies

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:03 pm

q8flyer wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
q8flyer wrote:
One example is the Doha - Amsterdam route which is 1 daily flight as of now using B77W. As i recall, the Dutch government refused the request for additinal daily flight. Thus, this agreemnet might give them more capacity.


No open slots at AMS.


I assume they could buy slots similar to what Emirates did in LHR?
Alders agrrement expires in 2020 and there should be growth prospects. I think this route is underserved and another flight would connect well within their Asian network.


A Dutch member can confirm, but IIRC, AMS doesn't allow a "market" in slots. Open slots revert to the airport owner, who then reassigns them.

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