Hi everyone. I found this interesting.

AF apparently wants to focus more on their premium cabins.

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 04782.html (in French)

via: https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -upmarket/

Question is... Can AF fill more premium seats? I'm sure every airline would like to increase their premium cabins and decrease their economy cabins. Time will tell.

DDR wrote:

Question is... Can AF fill more premium seats? I'm sure every airline would like to increase their premium cabins and decrease their economy cabins. Time will tell.

Well improving the hard and soft product (as it sounds like they are doing) is a step in the right direction.

How about they have just all premium frames and transfer rest of the SkyTeam connecting traffic to [email protected] Let others handle CDG economy O&D. Win-win.
IMHO, Paris O&D is screwing up SkyTeam European hub strategy.

Cool. It’ll be interesting to see what this strategy is replaced with in a years time in an attempt to stop the bleeding. AF always wants to try new things but they never seem to make money doing so.

If they make sure their Y cabins are good on all their long haul aircraft at least, then I say go for it. Some of their premium cabins are garbage

The strides taken under the past CEO were a step in the right direction. The reverse herringbone seats were a great leap forward and onboard service was improved greatly. However this plan was put into stasis for the past 3-4 years, A380 reconfiguration has been pushed back year after year leading people to avoid these as much as possible. Many 777s haven't been retrofitted. A concept called "ultra business" was introduced on flights to JFK, NRT, HND and SIN with improved service in J (à la carte dining, recognition of FF status on board...), this was supposed to be expanded to another 3 routes eventually but last I heard the whole concept has been dropped or watered down (at least to SIN).

So before going all premium AF should focus on being consistant with their hard and soft products. I've been on a few excellent J flights with them lately but I've also had quite meh experiences in the past and there isn't much worse than spending 12 hours on a slope when you realize even KLM has better seats.

How much j class does France attract?

Focus on J, making the hard product consistent across the fleet etc
What I found interesting is that they want to double the number of back up aircraft for last minute mechanicals. Now I’m wondering how or where they stand compared to other airlines in that.

The way to attract more premium traffic is by offering a service that is less likely to be interrupted by strikes. Until then, why would premium pax take the risk vs other more reliable airlines?

I chuckle because they sure as heck arent even focusing on Y. Their Y cabins are atrocious as well.

dtw2hyd wrote:

How about they have just all premium frames and transfer rest of the SkyTeam connecting traffic to [email protected] Let others handle CDG economy O&D. Win-win.
IMHO, Paris O&D is screwing up SkyTeam European hub strategy.

Taking this ridiculous suggestion as if it was a serious proposal:
Um, how are they gonna do that for an airport that's completely maxed out on slots, while at the same time dodging hand-grenades lobbed at them by their unions for doing so?

AF has improved, I like their new 1 - 2 -1 configuration in J, in First Class I wouldn't know. Though their catering is good. I like how in J they give you hanger, so you can put away your blazers, jackets, coats, and etc away. Though bunch of planes still have some their old product which was awful. I think they can improve in Economy as well.

AF is lost in translation.

Hard to attract new customers to try out the benefits of flying Premium, especially when the A340 you are flying in comes from former and frugal JOON, but it is apparently an Air France plane again, although in the outside is still painted Joon, but assisted by former Joon FA in tracksuit which turned now AF FA. Customers are not stupid.

AF to me is a brand who has lost the directness in decision-making. As a big airline, and especially in this market where the competence is fierce, you need to be sure about your moves, defend them until the last, and ultimately feel comfortable about them. When the customers starts seeing you lost, you are definitely lost.

Attracting more premium pax is really more about network/schedule and sales/distribution than anything really, least of all onboard product. And if they’re getting their fair share of Paris point of sale biz today, I’m not sure where any extra traffic may come from...

MaverickM11 wrote:

Attracting more premium pax is really more about network/schedule and sales/distribution than anything really, least of all onboard product. And if they’re getting their fair share of Paris point of sale biz today, I’m not sure where any extra traffic may come from...

IMO you miss the point by a lot...

AF gets their share of Paris originated traffic as KL does in Amsterdam, LH in Frankfurt and Munich, BA in London, IB in Madrid and so on.

Having said that, long haul J feeder traffic (extra traffic) comes mostly from the intra-european network every major european carriers operate. When you fly long haul J from anywhere else than the major's hubs you have to connect and then soft/hard product comes into play when you choose your carrier (both on the ground and on the air). There are no substantial differences in network, schedules and long haul J fares between IAG, AF/KL and LH group therefore to get that premium extra traffic from IAG and LH group, AF is going the right way by focusing on the product .

When they say that they are going to focus more on J and Y+ at the expense of Y, and when one considers how is AF Y class today, it sounds a bit scary...

Attracting premium pax is easy: slash fares.

I've had some great flights in J on AF and some so-so flights. In fact, the best food I probably had on any plane was an A380 (a Ducasse dish of salmon with fava beans in a curry sauce), which compensated slightly for the angle flat seat. The new 777 seats are a huge improvement, and the service is generally good. I'd like to see those seats expanded to other markets.

The other big change on the horizon for AF is labor peace. New CEO Smith has made tentative deals with the pilots unions to go along with deals made with flight attendants, ground crew, etc. If he peace really does break out, AF will have an opportunity to really invest in product and grow the company.

For me the largest issue with AF on Premium Class is communality.

Service is great on C and excelent on their new amazing F. However many destinations and acft are fitted with the old product (C mainly). For non-avgeeks or travel blogger-followers it is difficult to know what product are you buying.

On IAG/LH Group ou know what you'll get.

AF needs to get the basics right first. To me the biggest is cleanliness. Far too often we see reviews and travel blogs showing how cabins are filthy and well overdue deep cleaning.

If a passenger (especially high ticket ones) has to sit in a filthy seat then they won't come back when they have a choice. Cabin presentation needs to be faultless.

Planeflyer wrote:

How much j class does France attract?

It's a very premium (holiday) destination. La Defense does attract some foreign trade but not as much as Frankfurt or LHR.

FlyRow wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

How much j class does France attract?

It's a very premium (holiday) destination. La Defense does attract some foreign trade but not as much as Frankfurt or LHR.

Yes, this is exactly my impression.

I started out as a NWA ff and migrated to Delta so used AF quite a bit before the af440 crash.

But while my business is all over Europe little of it is Paris. Most of our business in France would be better served flying to Lyon.

And while I don’t find CDG a big negative as a transit point, all the strikes make it hard to justify AF when there are so many good alternatives.

I think the way forward for AF is to use the long range versions of the 321 or mom to develop more direct transatlantic service to places like Lyon and Toulouse.

Of course it wouldn’t hurt if economic growth picked up but I’m not optimistic on this and I doubt AF is either. Overall conditions in France play a significant role in their troubles.

Channex757 wrote:

AF needs to get the basics right first. To me the biggest is cleanliness. Far too often we see reviews and travel blogs showing how cabins are filthy and well overdue deep cleaning.

If a passenger (especially high ticket ones) has to sit in a filthy seat then they won't come back when they have a choice. Cabin presentation needs to be faultless.

I fly AF regularly short haul (A319, A321) and long haul (777 and A380) in J for work and have not seen evidence of these 'dirty cabins' either on 777 or A380. Must be on the older aircraft on the non-premium routes or grossly exaggerated.

Channex757 wrote:

AF needs to get the basics right first. To me the biggest is cleanliness. Far too often we see reviews and travel blogs showing how cabins are filthy and well overdue deep cleaning.

If a passenger (especially high ticket ones) has to sit in a filthy seat then they won't come back when they have a choice. Cabin presentation needs to be faultless.

I used to fly on AF TATL once a month. Their A340s and A330s are the only planes that might fit this description but even that is a stretch. Their planes can certainly feel dated but I can't say they were ever filthy or unclean. And even among those older planes, the A330 is getting refreshed and the A340 is being pulled from service.

AF does need to get cabin refreshes as the actual seats in W and J aren't competitive. But I've never felt their seats to actually be unclean.

FlyRow wrote:

Planeflyer wrote:

How much j class does France attract?

It's a very premium (holiday) destination. La Defense does attract some foreign trade but not as much as Frankfurt or LHR.

Yes, this is exactly my impression.

I started out as a NWA ff and migrated to Delta so used AF quite a bit before the af440 crash.

But while my business is all over Europe little of it is Paris. Most of our business in France would be better served flying to Lyon.

And while I don’t find CDG a big negative as a transit point, all the strikes make it hard to justify AF when there are so many good alternatives.

I think the way forward for AF is to use the long range versions of the 321 or mom to develop more direct transatlantic service to places like Lyon and Toulouse.

Of course it wouldn’t hurt if economic growth picked up but I’m not optimistic on this and I doubt AF is either. Overall conditions in France play a significant role in their troubles.

I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!

It seems ironic to me that AF would try to attract premium traffic. France has practically made the snarky waiter or waitress a cliche. Their unions go on strike at the drop of a hat and do not seem focused upon service to others. Compare their attitudes to the Asian carriers known for high service levels. It seems to me that AF needs a cultural change before it can attract more premium business.

westaust wrote:

I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!

The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.

whywhyzee wrote:

westaust wrote:

I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!

The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.

At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.

Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)

westaust wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

westaust wrote:

I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!

The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.

At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.

Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)

YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.

There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.

All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.

No surprises when it comes to AF.

I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.

What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.

So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...

senatorflyer wrote:

I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.

What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.

So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...

Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.

Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault

vinniewinnie wrote:

senatorflyer wrote:

I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.

What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.

So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...

Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.

Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault

I’m guilty as I have not flown AF since 440.

What do you think are Af’s main selling points Over LH

vinniewinnie wrote:

senatorflyer wrote:

I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.

What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.

So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...

Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.

Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault

I have flown AF a lot in the past just not in the last couple of years. You are right when saying LH is as often on strike as AF. Also FRA airport is a bit crap too so they are on par on those points. I also haven’t flown LH in the last couple of years. I used to be *Gold on LX and most of my travel was with either LX or LH. After the countless unreliability of LX during the financial crisis, the introduction of those horrible Recaro seats, the new idiotic LH J-Seat and a lot of other things I’ve decided to move my business to BA.

Funny enough, even though BA lacks in certain aspects behind LH and AF but overall I am a pretty happy customer, happier than I ever was with LX and LH. Keeping in mind that I grew up in Switzerland and flying with SR, Crossair and then Swiss for a long long time.

whywhyzee wrote:

westaust wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.

At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.

Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)

YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.

There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.

All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.

No surprises when it comes to AF.

I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".

They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.

Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.

aerokiwi wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

westaust wrote:

At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.

Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)

YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.

There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.

All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.

No surprises when it comes to AF.

I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".

They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.

Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.

In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.

People keep saying AF catering is great. Flying CDG-JFK the second meal is just plain weird. Small bites of mainly sweet food. Who wants that when it is basically dinner time. Also inter EU the J meals are odd. Again too many small sweet things. Why not a normal sandwich or better still a hot meal.

In many cases travel could go back towards the way it was 50 years ago by reducing the Y passengers and making Y so unbearable on long haul that no one will want to be in Y. That way if you want to travel you will feel you have to opt for J or at least premium economy. Seems to me to be a good strategy to grow the floor plan of J and W and reduce Y... I remember flying EWR-LHR on BA about 10 years ago on a 777-200ER that had only about 110 Y seats while it had 40 Y+ 48 J and 14 F...

It is true that people avoid the AF A380 like the plague you can see it with the prices on JFK-CDG flights many times the A380 will be over $1000 cheaper than the 777-300ER in J

whywhyzee wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.

There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.

All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.

No surprises when it comes to AF.

I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".

They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.

Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.

In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.

Well you were given examples of how that's not the case on the YUL route, but you seem to ignore that.

And if you're travelling for business, you're usually not the one booking. Usually it's your internal travel team or corporate travel agency. They often miss these details, in my e perience. Meanwhile, with that degree of complication, how do you expect a private J pax to go through all the aircraft types and remember the differences - a 3 class vs 4 class 77W - you really expect people to know?

It fundamentally shouldn't be an issue to start with, but instead you suggest pax should memorise aircraft types and variations. Odd. For that amount of money, it should be magnificently straightforward.

I thought Air France was already meant to basically be doing this, at least relative to KLM.

AF for French traffic and premium tourist flows, KLM for BeNeLux traffic and lower-yielding tourist flows. That was my understanding of their relative market positioning.

In addition, AF clearly has the best Business and First products out of the EU3.

So how is this really going to be a big change? Or is this merely a modest statement saying "we're going to put more effort into our premium products so as to reassert our current market positioning"?

vinniewinnie wrote:

senatorflyer wrote:

I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.

What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.

So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...

Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.

Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault

So true

1. Hopefully the tentative agreement between management and the two pilot unions will lessen unpredictability.
2. AF has always had premium catering.
3. I'm a mostly UA flyer but CDG Airport is no worse than LGA/JFK/EWR. Though I mainly transfer with carry-on luggage only.

upperdeckfan wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

Attracting more premium pax is really more about network/schedule and sales/distribution than anything really, least of all onboard product. And if they’re getting their fair share of Paris point of sale biz today, I’m not sure where any extra traffic may come from...

IMO you miss the point by a lot...

AF gets their share of Paris originated traffic as KL does in Amsterdam, LH in Frankfurt and Munich, BA in London, IB in Madrid and so on.

Having said that, long haul J feeder traffic (extra traffic) comes mostly from the intra-european network every major european carriers operate. When you fly long haul J from anywhere else than the major's hubs you have to connect and then soft/hard product comes into play when you choose your carrier (both on the ground and on the air). There are no substantial differences in network, schedules and long haul J fares between IAG, AF/KL and LH group therefore to get that premium extra traffic from IAG and LH group, AF is going the right way by focusing on the product .

No, product isn't going to move the dial much in these spokes, whereas increased sales/distribution focus may--think the Flying Blue Petroleum program. AF has to win business contracts in these connecting markets in addition to major deals in Paris.

That's supposedly one of the reasons for getting rid of 5 A380's. The A380 premium products are out of date, and the cost of upgrading the A380 premium cabins is high.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

That's supposedly one of the reasons for getting rid of 5 A380's. The A380 premium products are out of date, and the cost of upgrading the A380 premium cabins is high.

I believe you I have heard the cost of refurb on an A380 can be very expensive.. Do you know the price to convert even 1 A380?

gsg013 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

That's supposedly one of the reasons for getting rid of 5 A380's. The A380 premium products are out of date, and the cost of upgrading the A380 premium cabins is high.

I believe you I have heard the cost of refurb on an A380 can be very expensive.. Do you know the price to convert even 1 A380?

Not really. I just read an article about how the A380 was hurting AF, because it had the most outdated premium products and was hurting their yields. Getting rid of 5 leased A380's would seriously cut down the costs of upgrading the fleet.

Antarius wrote:

I chuckle because they sure as heck arent even focusing on Y. Their Y cabins are atrocious as well.

I flew on JFK-CDG last year, I believe AF7/8, and that Y hard product was the worst I have encountered in recent memory. The seats and tray tables were filthy and the seat had no cushion left, like sitting on a metal board for 5 hours. Crew seemed nice though.

aerokiwi wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".

They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.

Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.

In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.

Well you were given examples of how that's not the case on the YUL route, but you seem to ignore that.

And if you're travelling for business, you're usually not the one booking. Usually it's your internal travel team or corporate travel agency. They often miss these details, in my e perience. Meanwhile, with that degree of complication, how do you expect a private J pax to go through all the aircraft types and remember the differences - a 3 class vs 4 class 77W - you really expect people to know?

It fundamentally shouldn't be an issue to start with, but instead you suggest pax should memorise aircraft types and variations. Odd. For that amount of money, it should be magnificently straightforward.

Call it a difference of opinion, but I'd say, if I was going to spend that much money on a plane ticket, I'd do my research. If I was going to spend J class money on ANYTHING, I'd sure as hell do my research.

whywhyzee wrote:

aerokiwi wrote:

whywhyzee wrote:

In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.

Well you were given examples of how that's not the case on the YUL route, but you seem to ignore that.

And if you're travelling for business, you're usually not the one booking. Usually it's your internal travel team or corporate travel agency. They often miss these details, in my e perience. Meanwhile, with that degree of complication, how do you expect a private J pax to go through all the aircraft types and remember the differences - a 3 class vs 4 class 77W - you really expect people to know?

It fundamentally shouldn't be an issue to start with, but instead you suggest pax should memorise aircraft types and variations. Odd. For that amount of money, it should be magnificently straightforward.

Call it a difference of opinion, but I'd say, if I was going to spend that much money on a plane ticket, I'd do my research. If I was going to spend J class money on ANYTHING, I'd sure as hell do my research.

I think many people know about the different plane types and know the A380 J seats are the ones you should try to avoid. Hence why J on the A380 for AF goes at a large discount often to J on the 777-300ER.

I really don't understand where is all the hate coming from. I fly quiet a lot (around 70 flights a yers, half of them long haul), mostly on AF in J, W and Y and, as long as it is their new Best product, I feel like they are one of the best airlines to fly on. Their biggest problem is, as some pointed out, the lack of cohesion in their hard product long haul. That being said, if you book on their website, they will thell you what to expect with the tag "design by AF" next to the flight time.
To me, they are, with LX (excluding TK) the best european airline to fly on. I have nothing but horrible experiences on LH, from cold staff, horrible food and the worst of the worst: FRA. Almost missed my connection once due to gigantic queues at TSA and the staff was so rude. And I am Parisian so for me to find someone rude really says something.