Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
DDR wrote:Question is... Can AF fill more premium seats? I'm sure every airline would like to increase their premium cabins and decrease their economy cabins. Time will tell.
dtw2hyd wrote:How about they have just all premium frames and transfer rest of the SkyTeam connecting traffic to [email protected] Let others handle CDG economy O&D. Win-win.
IMHO, Paris O&D is screwing up SkyTeam European hub strategy.
MaverickM11 wrote:Attracting more premium pax is really more about network/schedule and sales/distribution than anything really, least of all onboard product. And if they’re getting their fair share of Paris point of sale biz today, I’m not sure where any extra traffic may come from...
Planeflyer wrote:How much j class does France attract?
FlyRow wrote:Planeflyer wrote:How much j class does France attract?
It's a very premium (holiday) destination. La Defense does attract some foreign trade but not as much as Frankfurt or LHR.
Channex757 wrote:AF needs to get the basics right first. To me the biggest is cleanliness. Far too often we see reviews and travel blogs showing how cabins are filthy and well overdue deep cleaning.
If a passenger (especially high ticket ones) has to sit in a filthy seat then they won't come back when they have a choice. Cabin presentation needs to be faultless.
Channex757 wrote:AF needs to get the basics right first. To me the biggest is cleanliness. Far too often we see reviews and travel blogs showing how cabins are filthy and well overdue deep cleaning.
If a passenger (especially high ticket ones) has to sit in a filthy seat then they won't come back when they have a choice. Cabin presentation needs to be faultless.
FlyRow wrote:Planeflyer wrote:How much j class does France attract?
It's a very premium (holiday) destination. La Defense does attract some foreign trade but not as much as Frankfurt or LHR.
westaust wrote:I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!
whywhyzee wrote:westaust wrote:I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!
The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.
westaust wrote:whywhyzee wrote:westaust wrote:I flew AF J last month for the first time in 10 years, got a refurbished 777 both ways, the herringbone seats are really nice and confortable, service was very good, catering was great, and that trip alone would make me fly AF J again over the many other carriers between canada and europe if it wasn't for the fact that you never know which seat type you'll get on which day (not good for loyalty and business trips that needs to be on fixed dates) or even in case of a substitution, ending up on a sloped seat rather than flat bed on a night flight, for the same price as fly AC or LX, not good!
The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.
At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.
Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)
senatorflyer wrote:I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.
What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.
So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...
vinniewinnie wrote:senatorflyer wrote:I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.
What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.
So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...
Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.
Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault
vinniewinnie wrote:senatorflyer wrote:I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.
What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.
So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...
Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.
Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault
whywhyzee wrote:westaust wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
The thing is, you do know what you are going to get, it is always the same configuration for them on routes. So if a route gets reverse herringbone, it is a guarantee you will get it every day unless there is an equipment change on the route of a last minute swap.
At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.
Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)
YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.
There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.
All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.
No surprises when it comes to AF.
aerokiwi wrote:whywhyzee wrote:westaust wrote:
At this moment not always, from YUL at least, you have 2 flights per day, some days both flights are with the new reverse herringbone seats, some days none of them, another day it's the 6pm that has it and not the 10pm and vice versa, and there isn't a fixed schedule for which flight gets them - as an example, on monday feb 4, the 6pm offers lay flat, the 10pm offers angled, the following monday (feb 11) both flights are angled.
Of course you know in advance which one you'll get, but to chase after premium pax, consistency is the key, and not always having the best product on offer isn't gonna cut it (and on top, they aren't much cheaper the days that they offer only angled seat compared to AC)
YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.
There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.
All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.
No surprises when it comes to AF.
I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".
They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.
Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.
whywhyzee wrote:aerokiwi wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
YUL is guaranteed no reverse herringbone, both flights are operated by 3 class 77Ws which feature the old angled seats. This is the case currently, though it may change as that route sees very variable equipment.
There is a way to tell, look at he type on booking. YUL doesn’t get any 4 class 77Ws, so if it is a 77W, it will not have the new seats. All 772s have the new seats, so if that is the operating type, then it will have the reverse herringbones.
All 789s, 772s, some A332s amd all 4 class 77Ws have reverse herringbones. All A380s, some A332s, all 3 class 77Ws and all A343s have the angled lie flats. The only fleet with inconsistency is the A332s, however, the reconfigured aircraft are allocated to certain routes, so there are no surprises, unless there is a last minute change made.
No surprises when it comes to AF.
I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".
They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.
Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.
In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.
vinniewinnie wrote:senatorflyer wrote:I haven’t flown AF for a while but whatever they are planning to do, I would never choose to fly AF if there are other options available.
What I think is most annoying with AF are the constant strikes, their staff (attitude and sometimes missing basic language skills in English), the same goes for the CDG staff. Also, CDG can be a nightmare to connect.
So whatever J seats they are going to install, I couldn’t care less...
Pretty funny! The most negative people on AF are those that never fly it, those that haven’t flown them in 10 years or those that make it a habit about being picky for no reason.
Fact is:
- AF strikes happen as often as LH
- Strikes are no different than weather delays and AF/CDG handle weather way better in my experience
- AF is one of the best airlines already notice food & alcohol on long haul flights (-20 year fan boys don’t care about this obviously)
- Where Af had big issues is CDG and it’s terminal layout, but that is not Af’s fault
upperdeckfan wrote:MaverickM11 wrote:Attracting more premium pax is really more about network/schedule and sales/distribution than anything really, least of all onboard product. And if they’re getting their fair share of Paris point of sale biz today, I’m not sure where any extra traffic may come from...
IMO you miss the point by a lot...
AF gets their share of Paris originated traffic as KL does in Amsterdam, LH in Frankfurt and Munich, BA in London, IB in Madrid and so on.
Having said that, long haul J feeder traffic (extra traffic) comes mostly from the intra-european network every major european carriers operate. When you fly long haul J from anywhere else than the major's hubs you have to connect and then soft/hard product comes into play when you choose your carrier (both on the ground and on the air). There are no substantial differences in network, schedules and long haul J fares between IAG, AF/KL and LH group therefore to get that premium extra traffic from IAG and LH group, AF is going the right way by focusing on the product .
flyingclrs727 wrote:That's supposedly one of the reasons for getting rid of 5 A380's. The A380 premium products are out of date, and the cost of upgrading the A380 premium cabins is high.
gsg013 wrote:flyingclrs727 wrote:That's supposedly one of the reasons for getting rid of 5 A380's. The A380 premium products are out of date, and the cost of upgrading the A380 premium cabins is high.
I believe you I have heard the cost of refurb on an A380 can be very expensive.. Do you know the price to convert even 1 A380?
Antarius wrote:I chuckle because they sure as heck arent even focusing on Y. Their Y cabins are atrocious as well.
aerokiwi wrote:whywhyzee wrote:aerokiwi wrote:
I think you've both proven the point that for J pax, AF is very variable, uncertain and undesirable, while ontradting yourself that there are "no surprises".
They need a single product across all airxraft type in long haul. Minor variations are fine but angled vs lie-flat is a major difference that would be infuriating.
Meanwhile, their Y class is rubbish. Seems AF needs a wholesale refurb effort. But, you know, AF.
In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.
Well you were given examples of how that's not the case on the YUL route, but you seem to ignore that.
And if you're travelling for business, you're usually not the one booking. Usually it's your internal travel team or corporate travel agency. They often miss these details, in my e perience. Meanwhile, with that degree of complication, how do you expect a private J pax to go through all the aircraft types and remember the differences - a 3 class vs 4 class 77W - you really expect people to know?
It fundamentally shouldn't be an issue to start with, but instead you suggest pax should memorise aircraft types and variations. Odd. For that amount of money, it should be magnificently straightforward.
whywhyzee wrote:aerokiwi wrote:whywhyzee wrote:
In all fairness, there aren't any surprises, when you book, it will tell you the on board product being offered. It isnt uncertain at all, they are quite consistent on a route to route basis.
Well you were given examples of how that's not the case on the YUL route, but you seem to ignore that.
And if you're travelling for business, you're usually not the one booking. Usually it's your internal travel team or corporate travel agency. They often miss these details, in my e perience. Meanwhile, with that degree of complication, how do you expect a private J pax to go through all the aircraft types and remember the differences - a 3 class vs 4 class 77W - you really expect people to know?
It fundamentally shouldn't be an issue to start with, but instead you suggest pax should memorise aircraft types and variations. Odd. For that amount of money, it should be magnificently straightforward.
Call it a difference of opinion, but I'd say, if I was going to spend that much money on a plane ticket, I'd do my research. If I was going to spend J class money on ANYTHING, I'd sure as hell do my research.