Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11230
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:44 am

Well here's a hard hitting factual news story. Strong investigation, lots of facts....
https://www.foxnews.com/travel/united-p ... -the-plane
Flight 931 from Chicago to London was forced to make an emergency landing in Goose Bay, Canada only a few hours into the journey after the windshield shattered, the cause of which United blamed on a bird strike.
[...]
The passenger who filed the suit Wednesday, Theodore Liaw, claims United is trying to cover up the real story, which he allegedly discovered from the pilots flying the plane.

“United has been lying to everyone about what happened,” the suit claims.
The document states that if the last layer of the windshield had broken before landing, “both pilots would have likely been sucked out of the plane."


Wow.... Sad. I mean, come on, do at least a tiny bit of research, don't just post click bait that has no purpose... Oh wait, this is the the modern MSM...

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
speedbird52
Posts: 1066
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear iit caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:54 am

Sometimes I think that all passengers should be compelled to receive a basic education in aviation before being allowed on planes. I also believe all prospective drivers should receive a lesson in how cars work.
 
slcguy
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:54 am

Don't want to give this idiot any credit. But the being stuck on the plane for 8 hours combined with last week's situation makes me wonder. Maybe United barring a dire emergency should consider someplace other than Goose Bay to divert to. Nothing wrong with Goose Bay, appears to be a nice airport but United doesn't have a presence their or apparently any plan on what to do if one of their aircraft lands there.
 
77H
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:48 am

slcguy wrote:
Don't want to give this idiot any credit. But the being stuck on the plane for 8 hours combined with last week's situation makes me wonder. Maybe United barring a dire emergency should consider someplace other than Goose Bay to divert to. Nothing wrong with Goose Bay, appears to be a nice airport but United doesn't have a presence their or apparently any plan on what to do if one of their aircraft lands there.


Where would you like them to stop in the event of a structural emergency? Not too many options on the North American side of the Atlantic especially when the name of the game is to land the aircraft a quickly as possible.
If your car’s engine temp gauge spikes, you don’t pull over at the nearest gas station... you pull over immediately to the nearest safe location on the roadside. The convenience of your passengers be damned. Unless they offer to pay for a new engine. ;)

I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out but very well could have incapacitated them or at the minimum made it very difficult to perform their duties. I’d rather be inconveniced in Goose Bay for a few hours than inconvenice the mortician at the morgue...

I was just having a conversation with a friend last night and was saying that airlines are one group of companies constantly faced with “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations, which is often not taken into account by people when things don’t go as planned. In this case, damned if you get the aircraft down at the closest usable airport which may present an inconvenience to customers, damned if you don’t and there is a crash wherein the airline would be sued for gross negligence among other things. If there was a crash, hell in a handbag...

77H
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2370
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:53 am

Is this guy for real!? Words absolutely fail me sometimes.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1500
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:52 am

That person should sue the Canadian gov't for allowing birds to be in the area
 
User avatar
Balerit
Posts: 624
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:24 am

Maybe it's time for the airlines to make the passengers sign an indemnity form and if the pax don't like it, they can go by road or sea.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
FatCat
Posts: 1038
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:55 am

Balerit wrote:
Maybe it's time for the airlines to make the passengers sign an indemnity form and if the pax don't like it, they can go by road or sea.

yes and airlines can close and sell their planes to the coca cola company for cans production :rotfl:
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:57 am

If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.

It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.

Other crew members held on to them.
 
BAeRJ100
Posts: 450
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:49 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:05 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.

It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.

Other crew members held on to them.


BA5390 was due to improperly sized screws being used to hold the windshield in place. It was NOT caused by a hole in the windshield like you are implying. Stop spreading misinformation.
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
A223/320/321/332/333/346/359/388
MD82/MD88/717/F100/RJ85/RJ100/146-100/200/300
E175/190/CRJ700/900
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:11 pm

I am an aircraft mechanic. If a hole develops and breeches it will cause depressurization and you will be sucked out.

When the window shatters you put the plane down asap to prevent it from breeching.

I’m not spreading misinformation, I didn’t state it was the same cause, I’ve replaced many cockpit widows.

They due fail especially when there is a malfunction in the window heat causing an arch.

I’ll expect your apology.
 
anshabhi
Posts: 2265
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:40 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:14 pm

Does this guy have the money to fight UA?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:33 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
I am an aircraft mechanic. If a hole develops and breeches it will cause depressurization and you will be sucked out.

When the window shatters you put the plane down asap to prevent it from breeching.

I’m not spreading misinformation, I didn’t state it was the same cause, I’ve replaced many cockpit widows.

They due fail especially when there is a malfunction in the window heat causing an arch.

I’ll expect your apology.

He doesn't have to apologize.

Your post was very misleading and insinuated that the pilot on BA5390 who was sucked out of the plane was due to the window/windshield breaking. In BA5390, the windshield blew out as one piece after incorrect screws were used.

BAeRJ100 is expecting your apologies.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:38 pm

You are putting words into my post. Just stop.

I implied nothing.

I stated a pilot can and has been partially sucked out.

And he or she can fight their own battles.

You are simply interpreting it to fit your narrative

Grow up and just simply discuss and debate.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:41 pm

And apparently you didn’t look up the other flight.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna874326

Cockpit window shatters and pilot partially sucked out.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2018/0 ... sh-pkg.cnn

I rest my case.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:44 pm

BAeRJ100 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.
It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.
Other crew members held on to them.

BA5390 was due to improperly sized screws being used to hold the windshield in place. It was NOT caused by a hole in the windshield like you are implying. Stop spreading misinformation.

I think you (BAeRJ100) are being unnecessarily harsh.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out the different reason behind the windscreen failure on BA5390.
But it is not the mechanism that causes the window to fail that is the main issue here.

Firstly, some people (yes, even on a.net) probably still doubt that you can be sucked through an aircraft window, even though this happened not only on Sichuan Airlines flight 3U8633, but also to a SouthWest passenger barely a month before that (April & May, 2018)
WN1380 - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1391827&hilit=1380

Secondly, the thread is probably just as much about this UA passenger (and his lawyers) launching a claim for damages for the "fear it caused".

I confess the OP didn't make it clear exactly what issues were uppermost in their mind, but nitpicking over BA5390 probably wasn't their first concern.
WayexTDI please also take note...
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:47 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
BAeRJ100 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.
It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.
Other crew members held on to them.

BA5390 was due to improperly sized screws being used to hold the windshield in place. It was NOT caused by a hole in the windshield like you are implying. Stop spreading misinformation.

I think you (BAeRJ100) are being unnecessarily harsh.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out the different reason behind the windscreen failure on BA5390.
But it is not the mechanism that causes the window to fail that is the main issue here.

Firstly, some people (yes, even on a.net) probably still doubt that you can be sucked through an aircraft window, even though this happened not only on Sichuan Airlines flight 3U8633, but also to a SouthWest passenger barely a month before that (April & May, 2018)
WN1380 - https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... hilit=1380

Secondly, the thread is probably just as much about this UA passenger (and his lawyers) launching a claim for damages for the "fear it caused".

I confess the OP didn't make it clear exactly what issues were uppermost in their mind, but nitpicking over BA5390 probably wasn't their first concern.
WayexTDI please also take note...



Thank you. You obviously understood why intent to point out you can be sucked out if it breeches.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 1058
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:35 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
I am an aircraft mechanic. If a hole develops and breeches it will cause depressurization and you will be sucked out.

Blown out, not sucked out. Physics 101

When the window shatters you put the plane down asap to prevent it from breeching.

It's extremely rare for a laminate window used on an aircraft to shatter and disintegrate completely. Most 'shattered' and 'cracked' windows you see are the outer layer only.
The SOP at most airlines is to get the aircraft below 10k. Landing is a separate discussion.

I’m not spreading misinformation, I didn’t state it was the same cause, I’ve replaced many cockpit widows.

With regards to BA 5390 you were talking nonsense. There was no hole in the windshield, the windshield panel departed the aircraft due to incorrect fitting (wrong screws used).


I’ll expect your apology.

As do those who you've attempted to skygod.
 
ual763
Posts: 1027
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:47 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You are putting words into my post. Just stop.

I implied nothing.

I stated a pilot can and has been partially sucked out.

And he or she can fight their own battles.

You are simply interpreting it to fit your narrative

Grow up and just simply discuss and debate.


The pilot also wasn’t wearing his seat belt in that incident either at the time iirc. At least not in the tv show made about it! ;)
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3591
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:51 pm

Only in the good ol' U.S. of A.

Seriously, in mainland China, a windscreen was actually totally fell out, co-pilot sucked half-way out of the plane, and they were flying in some mountainous region while depressurized. Co-pilot and a cabin crew was actually injured. Lawsuits? What lawsuit?
In US of A, where a windscreen shattered (which happens from time to time), but only the outermost layer, and plane was not even depressurized (although they landed the plane out of precaution). No injury, not even all that "scary". Yep, let's sue for emotional stress.

P.S. For both BA5390 and the Sichuan Airlines flight, the whole windscreen depart, it didn't "shatter". Oh, and in both case, the pilots survived (Although the BA5390 case is definitely a miracle).
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:02 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Does this guy have the money to fight UA?

Doesn't matter. His lawyer will get paid once UA settle (since this won't most likely go to court).
That's the way the system works.
 
Ferminios
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:21 pm

I wonder how many people have actually read the article. It's a rather notable lawsuit for the fact that the person in question claims to have a flown a million miles on United, so it's not exactly a random passenger that sees the inside of the plane for a first time that's suing. While I won't equate miles to IQ, I can't help but think that there might be a bit more substance to this case than others on this forum are suspecting.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:26 pm

Ferminios wrote:
I wonder how many people have actually read the article. It's a rather notable lawsuit for the fact that the person in question claims to have a flown a million miles on United, so it's not exactly a random passenger that sees the inside of the plane for a first time that's suing. While I won't equate miles to IQ, I can't help but think that there might be a bit more substance to this case than others on this forum are suspecting.

Please explain how.

Fear and emotions are not something that can be 100% proven medically; unlike physical injury, it's easy to fake.
As such, UA will settle this out of court to avoid being dragged in public and further damaging its image. And this will lead to more frivolous lawsuits.
 
m1m2
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:39 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:30 pm

While it is possible to be forced out through any opening that developes in a pressurized aircraft, it's very uncommon for this to happen in a windshield of a commercial aircraft.

I am also an aircraft mechanic and like most of us (mechanics), I have seen damaged windshields, but never one with a hole in it. I think if someone ran the numbers of windshields replaced due to failure/damage to windshields that actually had a hole in them, the latter would be a very small number.

The outer layer of glass in a windshield is fairly thin compared to the rest of it. In total, the windshield is over an inch think, comprising of glass and acrylic layers. The windshield weighs somewhere around 30 to 40 pounds. The glass is hard and brittle (which resists erosion), while the acrylic is very tough (giving overall strength). The glass layer is also heated and this is one of the most common things to fail, the heating element itself.

Another thing to remember is the pilot flying the airplane would most likely have no idea how close the windshield actually came to failing. This could only be found out by removing the windshield and inspecting it then.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3516
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:17 pm

One common complaint on this site is the pilots not providing enough information in the case of a diversion or delay. This is exactly why they need to watch what they say. People are sensitive and sue crazy.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:18 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Does this guy have the money to fight UA?


I’m sure his lawyer took the case on contingency - and will get 30-50% of any settlement instead of an hourly fee. While it would be fun to see UA call his bluff and go to court, UA will probably take the path of least resistance and settle. Especially since the plaintiff (and his lawyer) would most likely settle for a tiny amount of money with no effort instead of putting money and time into a court case and ending up with nothing. Or less than nothing if a judge ordered them to pay UA’s costs for defending a frivolous lawsuit.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11230
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:38 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
I confess the OP didn't make it clear exactly what issues were uppermost in their mind, but nitpicking over BA5390 probably wasn't their first concern.

OP here, yes I certainly was not thinking of the incredibly few and rare instances of when a windscreen had failed for various reasons. I was focusing on the weak story/"news" that was provided in the article. There was basically no research, there was no supporting information.

So you have a scared "million miler" (he muthst be thmart about aireo plane travel...) who's a CEO no less (of a call center firm), who is on a flight that has a cockpit window that cracks necessitating, per industry wide safety procedures, a landing at the first available landing spot, and a pilot (all knowing gods of information of all things flight related, from what management is planning to do to everything in the plane) who supposedly states something along the lines of "we all could have died!" (which is complete hearsay with no supporting evidence and doesn't sound like any pilot I know).....

It is such a ridiculous story it almost doesn't warrant mentioning, except that it is promoted on a popular and well known news site and presents such poor information that it does not help anyone and in fact could do harm to those who travel as it implies factually incorrect things.

Let me put it this way: The lawsuit is bogus, the passenger was never at any true risk of dying, and his "fear" is completely his own and not the fault of the airline.

As to the risk of dying and getting sucked out... anyone remember this:
Image

Aircraft are thoroughly engineered, and tested from decades of flight. Failures will happen as they do with anything. However the risk of injury to passengers much less the risk of dying is incredibly low, something that is a point of pride for anyone in the industry. To report crap news as clickbait is pathetic. Do some research and don't promote idiots seeking a moment of notoriety and cash. To me the bigger story should be the fact that the guy is a half lunatic and showing how safe that passenger really is.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Flightsimboy
Posts: 1777
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:49 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:40 pm

Because he flew a million miles and refused the $500 voucher he gets to sue? What about the other passengers did they not suffer the same "near death experience" and "be paralysed with fear to ever fly again and put one''s career in jeopardy?"...I guess some people can use their influence stronger than others. A million miles makes all the difference I guess.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4027
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:31 pm

poor little sensitive rich boy .. 1Million miles and never had a flight problem? he should look at it as they landed and all were safe. Ok they were in an airport that didn't have a exec lounge to pamper his ego, but they could have been in upstate NY and kept on an unheated plane for 24 hours.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:13 pm

Mods, please bear with me, I'm having difficulty hanging on to my …. sanity.

Despite criticism from certain sources that accuse me of being patronizing, it appears I still need to spell it out for y'all, in nice easy bite-sized paragraphs.

Post #4
77H wrote:
I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out...
Post #9
Boof02671 wrote:
If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.
It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.
Other crew members held on to them.
Question asked.... and answered. :checkmark:

Post #10
BAeRJ100 wrote:
BA5390 was due to improperly sized screws being used to hold the windshield in place. It was NOT caused by a hole in the windshield like you are implying.
Stop spreading misinformation.
What misinformation?
I suggest you go all the way back to Post #4 ; "I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out"
.Unless I am mistaken, we have just seen an answer for that question.
77H did NOT specify how the windscreen had to be displaced. He did NOT specify it must start with a small hole or merely crazed over. He was querying whether it was possible for a human being to be sucked out (yes, sucked, not blown) through a small aperture such as a missing windscreen.
Boof02671 was the first person to answer that question, drawing a parallel with BA5390, for that purpose alone.

I'm not guessing, because he clarified it all with the next post
Post #11
Boof02671 wrote:
I am an aircraft mechanic. If a hole develops and breeches it will cause depressurization and you will be sucked out.
I’m not spreading misinformation, I didn’t state it was the same cause,

Ok, so he mis-spelled "breaches", but he answered the question.

Despite that, others piled in to point out how wrong he was.

WayexTDI; "Your post was very misleading and insinuated that.. (blah, blah, blah)
ChrisKen; "With regards to BA 5390 you were talking nonsense."

After I chimed in at post #16, I too became the victim of insults (via a string of PMs)

It turns out not everybody could see the bigger picture.

So yes, you can be sucked out of an aircraft through a broken/failed window, regardless of how it comes about. However, in each of the three cases I know of, the entire body did not pass completely through the window. (one died, two survived)

And talking of bigger pictures; thx to the OP (Tugger) for coming back and pointing out this is all a side-issue, and that almost nobody bothered to read the original article, and understand that his point was about something else entirely.

I'm going off now for an appointment with a bucket of iced water.
If y'all very lucky, I might drown myself. Fingers crossed, eh?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:20 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Mods, please bear with me, I'm having difficulty hanging on to my …. sanity.

Despite criticism from certain sources that accuse me of being patronizing, it appears I still need to spell it out for y'all, in nice easy bite-sized paragraphs.

Post #4
77H wrote:
I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out...
Post #9
Boof02671 wrote:
If the window developed a hole and broke out you can be sucked out.
It happened on a BA flight 5390 and a Sichuan also.
Other crew members held on to them.
Question asked.... and answered. :checkmark:

Post #10
BAeRJ100 wrote:
BA5390 was due to improperly sized screws being used to hold the windshield in place. It was NOT caused by a hole in the windshield like you are implying.
Stop spreading misinformation.
What misinformation?
I suggest you go all the way back to Post #4 ; "I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out"
.Unless I am mistaken, we have just seen an answer for that question.
77H did NOT specify how the windscreen had to be displaced. He did NOT specify it must start with a small hole or merely crazed over. He was querying whether it was possible for a human being to be sucked out (yes, sucked, not blown) through a small aperture such as a missing windscreen.
Boof02671 was the first person to answer that question, drawing a parallel with BA5390, for that purpose alone.

I'm not guessing, because he clarified it all with the next post
Post #11
Boof02671 wrote:
I am an aircraft mechanic. If a hole develops and breeches it will cause depressurization and you will be sucked out.
I’m not spreading misinformation, I didn’t state it was the same cause,

Ok, so he mis-spelled "breaches", but he answered the question.

Despite that, others piled in to point out how wrong he was.

WayexTDI; "Your post was very misleading and insinuated that.. (blah, blah, blah)
ChrisKen; "With regards to BA 5390 you were talking nonsense."

After I chimed in at post #16, I too became the victim of insults (via a string of PMs)

It turns out not everybody could see the bigger picture.

So yes, you can be sucked out of an aircraft through a broken/failed window, regardless of how it comes about. However, in each of the three cases I know of, the entire body did not pass completely through the window. (one died, two survived)

And talking of bigger pictures; thx to the OP (Tugger) for coming back and pointing out this is all a side-issue, and that almost nobody bothered to read the original article, and understand that his point was about something else entirely.

I'm going off now for an appointment with a bucket of iced water.
If y'all very lucky, I might drown myself. Fingers crossed, eh?

See dude, you are being patronizing, faking to "explain" what the others did not understand just because you disagree with them.
Basically, we are wrong and you're right; gotcha!
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3691
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:25 pm

Up until a few years ago, the B767 main nbr 1 windscreen was allowed to be dispatched with cracks in it. The wording in the MEL referred you to the AMM, which gave some inspection requirements, but basically if it was crazed or cracked, and the pilot could see through it OK, then you could dispatch it iaw the MEL for flights back to base.
I did this once. The Capt said as I walked into the flight deck, 'broken windscreen, we are staying the night'. 'Outer pane only', said I,'you are going home', and showed him the paperwork. Much surprised and off they went.

Also many years ago on the Tristar, the MEL allowed us to remove all the broken outer pane, and then dispatch the aircraft, even the wipers worked normally.
But with modern lawyers, the aircraft diverts into Goose Bay. Glad I have retired
 
2175301
Posts: 2052
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:47 pm

I actually think the bigger issue is that Goose Bay has very limited resources to deal with a diverted aircraft that cannot immediately leave after minor repairs or taking on fuel. This has affected multiple airlines.

Might I suggest that perhaps the major airlines should cooperate and fund better contingency options for Goose Bay. This could be paying Canada to over-staff the airport with customs agents to the quick dispatch of "rescue" aircraft to keep people from sitting in Goose Bay (even if they are only delivered to a nearby major city and rerouted from there).

Have a great day,
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3632
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:50 pm

Tugger wrote:

As to the risk of dying and getting sucked out... anyone remember this:
Image



Do you remember that Tugg? I certainly do: a flight attendant got sucked out and died, unless you think she is not really dead because they didn't find her body. Truth is that anybody not buckled in their seat near the front cabin of Aloha 243 was in a very dire situation and could have suffered the same fate as Ms. Clarabelle Lansing. As for the rest of the plane, I won't use the word "miraculous" but I will say that they were extremely lucky to get that plane down on the ground safely in that condition; as it was, there were some serious injuries to those in the convertible section. Perhaps the fact that they were flying at a relatively low altitude helped.

I think it is very clear that losing a windshield over the Atlantic would be extremely dangerous and perhaps catastrophic. Whether or not this UA plane was in such a critical state is unclear but obviously the decision to land at YYR meant that it had at least elevated to a serious situation. I am also unsure that it was a bird strike, so I have to agree with the lawsuit on that point, unless somebody can say with certainty that an earlier bird strike could have caused the windshield to crack and fail halfway through a flight.

As others have alluded to, UA will probably be advised to simply settle this out of court. It's cheaper and they have too much to lose. We will probably never hear how much the plaintiff receives unless it is a court-ordered settlement.
None shall pass!!!!
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4834
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:04 pm

If you are receiving harassing PMs, please just report them so we can take action. Thank you!
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5744
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:36 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Sometimes I think that all passengers should be compelled to receive a basic education in aviation before being allowed on planes. I also believe all prospective drivers should receive a lesson in how cars work.


I have an American Airlines route map from 1959. On the back it has all kinds of info about how airplanes fly, how jet and piston engines work, and how the plane is navigated. That probably helped out a lot of passengers back in the day.

Flightsimboy wrote:
.I guess some people can use their influence stronger than others. A million miles makes all the difference I guess.

If he didn't take the voucher he knew exactly what he was doing. He planned to sue from the very beginning. I would be curious to know his background when it comes to lawsuits. Crazy lawsuits are aren't just the territory of low income or uneducated people. There was case several years ago where a doctor sued Anheuser-Busch InBev for making him think US market Becks is brewed in Germany. Since it has been brewed in the USA the label says "Product of the USA", but he was worked up because it said "Germany Quality" on the label. The guy won a judgement against A-B and had a history of similar suits against other companies.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
User avatar
Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 11230
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:41 pm

richierich wrote:
Tugger wrote:

As to the risk of dying and getting sucked out... anyone remember this:
Image



Do you remember that Tugg? I certainly do: a flight attendant got sucked out and died, unless you think she is not really dead because they didn't find her body. Truth is that anybody not buckled in their seat near the front cabin of Aloha 243 was in a very dire situation and could have suffered the same fate as Ms. Clarabelle Lansing. As for the rest of the plane, I won't use the word "miraculous" but I will say that they were extremely lucky to get that plane down on the ground safely in that condition; as it was, there were some serious injuries to those in the convertible section. Perhaps the fact that they were flying at a relatively low altitude helped.

I think it is very clear that losing a windshield over the Atlantic would be extremely dangerous and perhaps catastrophic. Whether or not this UA plane was in such a critical state is unclear but obviously the decision to land at YYR meant that it had at least elevated to a serious situation. I am also unsure that it was a bird strike, so I have to agree with the lawsuit on that point, unless somebody can say with certainty that an earlier bird strike could have caused the windshield to crack and fail halfway through a flight.

You are missing the point I was trying make. My apologies for not being clearer.

First I will say that I agree with what you say. There is no real comparison between that event and the event this thread is about. That the plane was able to land with only minimal loss is and was miraculous as you say.

The point I was trying to make was that even a failure of that magnitude resulted in only one fatality, the FA and no passengers. Still a terrible tragedy and someone died horribly. But the entire top of the plane blew off and only someone not seated was lost. Also as to the fact of "losing a windshield"... that is an extremely rare occurrence to say the least. and even the times it has happened the people "sucked out" survived. And even with a catastrophic event occurring and exposing a cockpit to the outside environment forces, those planes have been successfully landed and the passengers safely returned to the ground.

And that was the case in this "event" as well.

Bad things happen, people have died on aircraft due to failures in flight. However to my knowledge no windshield cracking has ever resulted in a hole or a pilot being sucked out or all passenger lives being at risk. Cracking happens, and the aircraft are designed for such an event

The whole point of my starting this thread was to highlight the fearmongering that is done by some people. Quite frankly the press owes more to the public and the traveling public than blatant regurgitation with no inspection into facts, when for something like aircraft there is tons of data and information available.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:45 pm

falstaff wrote:
If he didn't take the voucher he knew exactly what he was doing. He planned to sue from the very beginning. I would be curious to know his background when it comes to lawsuits. [...]

I know the answer is partly "because of frivolous lawsuits like this", but why does would the airline see the need to add the condition of dropping any and all legal action if you take the voucher? In a sense, you're inviting people like him to just sue for the sake of making a quick buck...
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:52 pm

77H wrote:
slcguy wrote:
Don't want to give this idiot any credit. But the being stuck on the plane for 8 hours combined with last week's situation makes me wonder. Maybe United barring a dire emergency should consider someplace other than Goose Bay to divert to. Nothing wrong with Goose Bay, appears to be a nice airport but United doesn't have a presence their or apparently any plan on what to do if one of their aircraft lands there.


Where would you like them to stop in the event of a structural emergency? Not too many options on the North American side of the Atlantic especially when the name of the game is to land the aircraft a quickly as possible.
If your car’s engine temp gauge spikes, you don’t pull over at the nearest gas station... you pull over immediately to the nearest safe location on the roadside. The convenience of your passengers be damned. Unless they offer to pay for a new engine. ;)

I’m not sure if the windscreen giving out would have caused the pilots to be sucked out but very well could have incapacitated them or at the minimum made it very difficult to perform their duties. I’d rather be inconveniced in Goose Bay for a few hours than inconvenice the mortician at the morgue...

I was just having a conversation with a friend last night and was saying that airlines are one group of companies constantly faced with “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations, which is often not taken into account by people when things don’t go as planned. In this case, damned if you get the aircraft down at the closest usable airport which may present an inconvenience to customers, damned if you don’t and there is a crash wherein the airline would be sued for gross negligence among other things. If there was a crash, hell in a handbag...

77H

all windshields are multiple layers so it's unlikely the windshield would have blown out. However? Since the safety procedure is to Land at the nearest Airport?
Then that's what you DO. The Closest guys to Goose Bay with the Parts are the guys to Go there to fix it. The Rescue airplane? Might come from Anywhere.
That there weren't amenities at Goose Bay? Unfortunate but of little consequence.
 
N505fx
Posts: 339
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:02 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:03 pm

I am really failing to see the problem here. There was a failure of some sort, the window broke, by design the window handled the failure and the pilots executed a specified emergency procedure that saved the lives of all onboard...how is this grounds for a lawsuit? I mean, he is suing on the potential that something could have happened? Next he will sue because there is the possibility that the thousands of gallons of kerosene burning 15 feet away from his seat *could* cause burns...nothing to see here folks except for some San Fran exec who is money grubbing.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:04 pm

2175301 wrote:
I actually think the bigger issue is that Goose Bay has very limited resources to deal with a diverted aircraft that cannot immediately leave after minor repairs or taking on fuel. This has affected multiple airlines.

Might I suggest that perhaps the major airlines should cooperate and fund better contingency options for Goose Bay. This could be paying Canada to over-staff the airport with customs agents to the quick dispatch of "rescue" aircraft to keep people from sitting in Goose Bay (even if they are only delivered to a nearby major city and rerouted from there).

Have a great day,


For the few dozen flights that divert there per year I doubt it’s worth the expense
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
richierich wrote:
Tugger wrote:

As to the risk of dying and getting sucked out... anyone remember this:
Image



Do you remember that Tugg? I certainly do: a flight attendant got sucked out and died, unless you think she is not really dead because they didn't find her body. Truth is that anybody not buckled in their seat near the front cabin of Aloha 243 was in a very dire situation and could have suffered the same fate as Ms. Clarabelle Lansing. As for the rest of the plane, I won't use the word "miraculous" but I will say that they were extremely lucky to get that plane down on the ground safely in that condition; as it was, there were some serious injuries to those in the convertible section. Perhaps the fact that they were flying at a relatively low altitude helped.

I think it is very clear that losing a windshield over the Atlantic would be extremely dangerous and perhaps catastrophic. Whether or not this UA plane was in such a critical state is unclear but obviously the decision to land at YYR meant that it had at least elevated to a serious situation. I am also unsure that it was a bird strike, so I have to agree with the lawsuit on that point, unless somebody can say with certainty that an earlier bird strike could have caused the windshield to crack and fail halfway through a flight.

You are missing the point I was trying make. My apologies for not being clearer.

The point I was trying to make was that even a failure of that magnitude resulted in only one fatality, the FA and no passengers. Still a terrible tragedy and someone died horribly. But the entire top of the plane blew off and only someone not seated was lost. Also as to the fact of "losing a windshield"... that is an extremely rare occurrence to say the least. and even the times it has happened the people "sucked out" survived. And even with a catastrophic event occurring and exposing a cockpit to the outside environment forces, those planes have been successfully landed and the passengers safely returned to the ground.

And that was the case in this "event" as well.

Bad things happen, people have died on aircraft due to failures in flight. However to my knowledge no windshield cracking has ever resulted in a hole or a pilot being sucked out or all passenger lives being at risk. Cracking happens, and the aircraft are designed for such an event

The whole point of my starting this thread was to highlight the fearmongering that is done by some people. Quite frankly the press owes more to the public and the traveling public than blatant regurgitation with no inspection into facts, when for something like aircraft there is tons of data and information available.

Tugg

Unfortunately? That Aloha Accident was a clear case of Negligence. That was a Combi airplane and the Cargo Door was Mis-Rigged. Look at the symmetrical forward edge of he damage. That was no accident! That's where the cargo door cutout was. Had Aloha spent more time in taking care of the door and Latching system this might not have happened. I saw and flew on this airplane before the Accident and said nothing even Knowing it was jacked up!! Had I had the courage to blow the whistle I might have saved that woman's life even is I put her out of a Job. To this day I share the blame in this for keeping my mouth shut!!
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2154
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:17 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
richierich wrote:

Do you remember that Tugg? I certainly do: a flight attendant got sucked out and died, unless you think she is not really dead because they didn't find her body. Truth is that anybody not buckled in their seat near the front cabin of Aloha 243 was in a very dire situation and could have suffered the same fate as Ms. Clarabelle Lansing. As for the rest of the plane, I won't use the word "miraculous" but I will say that they were extremely lucky to get that plane down on the ground safely in that condition; as it was, there were some serious injuries to those in the convertible section. Perhaps the fact that they were flying at a relatively low altitude helped.

I think it is very clear that losing a windshield over the Atlantic would be extremely dangerous and perhaps catastrophic. Whether or not this UA plane was in such a critical state is unclear but obviously the decision to land at YYR meant that it had at least elevated to a serious situation. I am also unsure that it was a bird strike, so I have to agree with the lawsuit on that point, unless somebody can say with certainty that an earlier bird strike could have caused the windshield to crack and fail halfway through a flight.

You are missing the point I was trying make. My apologies for not being clearer.

The point I was trying to make was that even a failure of that magnitude resulted in only one fatality, the FA and no passengers. Still a terrible tragedy and someone died horribly. But the entire top of the plane blew off and only someone not seated was lost. Also as to the fact of "losing a windshield"... that is an extremely rare occurrence to say the least. and even the times it has happened the people "sucked out" survived. And even with a catastrophic event occurring and exposing a cockpit to the outside environment forces, those planes have been successfully landed and the passengers safely returned to the ground.

And that was the case in this "event" as well.

Bad things happen, people have died on aircraft due to failures in flight. However to my knowledge no windshield cracking has ever resulted in a hole or a pilot being sucked out or all passenger lives being at risk. Cracking happens, and the aircraft are designed for such an event

The whole point of my starting this thread was to highlight the fearmongering that is done by some people. Quite frankly the press owes more to the public and the traveling public than blatant regurgitation with no inspection into facts, when for something like aircraft there is tons of data and information available.

Tugg

Unfortunately? That Aloha Accident was a clear case of Negligence. That was a Combi airplane and the Cargo Door was Mis-Rigged. Look at the symmetrical forward edge of he damage. That was no accident! That's where the cargo door cutout was. Had Aloha spent more time in taking care of the door and Latching system this might not have happened. I saw and flew on this airplane before the Accident and said nothing even Knowing it was jacked up!! Had I had the courage to blow the whistle I might have saved that woman's life even is I put her out of a Job. To this day I share the blame in this for keeping my mouth shut!!

By "Combi" and "Cargo Door", you mean the big cargo door on the left hand side that would swing up to let pallets enter, as a pure freighter?
 
Karlsands
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:20 pm

In pure honesty , what is with people on this site acting like middle school girls half the time ? Have some respect for yourselves AND others hahah . Goodness
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7401
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:23 pm

Well, I don’t know UAL procedure, but here’s a case where a B767-300 continued after an electrical failure of the outer pane. Is it really an ASAP landing for this non-normal, as I’ve thought there would be some way of diverting for the hour or two to BOS, BGR, etc? Would a crew divert into Siberia for this?

http://www.37000feet.com/report/940613/B767-300-captains-windshield-outer-pane-shattered-in-cruise-at-FL340-and
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, I don’t know UAL procedure, but here’s a case where a B767-300 continued after an electrical failure of the outer pane. Is it really an ASAP landing for this non-normal, as I’ve thought there would be some way of diverting for the hour or two to BOS, BGR, etc? Would a crew divert into Siberia for this?

http://www.37000feet.com/report/940613/B767-300-captains-windshield-outer-pane-shattered-in-cruise-at-FL340-and

Did the window shatter? It was up to the Captain as to what he was going to do. It's not up for Debate!! You nor I have any status to debate it!! I can almost assure you the FAA Agrees with his actions. And I'm FAR more afraid of them than anybody Else especially with the possibility of losing MY (or His) License. If the proceedure is to Land at the nearest facility? Then? That's what you DO!! That is? Unless you're going to pay the fine or risk losing YOUR License to fly? So? Other than that?
You don't Have a say, though we do see your opinion. (wrong as it might be..)
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2492
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:45 pm

It was not a 737C
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:46 pm

I wish I was a Judge sometimes so I could fine and threaten with jail lawyers and plaintiffs that bring up these frivolous lawsuits.
 
User avatar
flybynight
Posts: 1538
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:58 pm

In the case of rapid depressurization in the cockpit, wouldn't the pilot generally speaking be kept in their seat if they are wearing their seatbelts, especially the 5-point harness they wear in the cockpit? I think back to the miracle of that BA flights years ago, but also sadly the person who died on the Southwest flight last year. I don't know if either were wearing seatbelts at the time.


Either way, this doesn't seem to be a situation that warrants suing UA. I would say, UA, or any airline, should and could do better with their communication to the passengers. This seems to be a common theme time after time.
Heia Norge!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 7401
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Passenger suing United for shattered windscreen and fear it caused

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:16 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Well, I don’t know UAL procedure, but here’s a case where a B767-300 continued after an electrical failure of the outer pane. Is it really an ASAP landing for this non-normal, as I’ve thought there would be some way of diverting for the hour or two to BOS, BGR, etc? Would a crew divert into Siberia for this?

http://www.37000feet.com/report/940613/B767-300-captains-windshield-outer-pane-shattered-in-cruise-at-FL340-and

Did the window shatter? It was up to the Captain as to what he was going to do. It's not up for Debate!! You nor I have any status to debate it!! I can almost assure you the FAA Agrees with his actions. And I'm FAR more afraid of them than anybody Else especially with the possibility of losing MY (or His) License. If the proceedure is to Land at the nearest facility? Then? That's what you DO!! That is? Unless you're going to pay the fine or risk losing YOUR License to fly? So? Other than that?
You don't Have a say, though we do see your opinion. (wrong as it might be..)


Chill out, I’m not saying he was wrong. If land ASAP is the procefure, and I don’t doubt it was, fine. No doubt the FAA agrees, as they probably don’t care UNLESS he continued in violation of the QRH or FCOM procedure. I’m pointing out, in the 10 jets I’ve flown as a pilot, there was usually, depending on the exact failure, a way to avoid an ASAP landing, maybe lower PSID, maybe restrict flight level, maybe land ASAP. I’ve had about windscreen failures on B727, C-5, and CL60, so I’m not unknowing, on the topic IN GENERAL. Yes, it’s his certificate, not yours or mine and, I’m NOT challenging HIS decision, just inquiring on B767 procedure.

Is the procedure to land ASAP?

GF

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos