edealinfo
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Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:55 am

Three to four years ago, EK was rapidly expanding and announcing new destinations and additional frequencies. In recent years, though, the growth has been slow. What gives?
 
9w748capt
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:57 am

Where else could they possibly fly 3x daily A380s?
 
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Wynnster8
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:58 am

Dubai is Slot Restricted. That's why they been parking A380's and 777's at Dubai World Central.
Favorite plane is 757-200 Favorite airport is Singapore Favorite route is SYD-JNB
 
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zkojq
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:13 am

They can barely crew their existing schedule, so any meaningful growth is going to significantly compromise their reliability.
First to fly the 787-9
 
SCQ83
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:30 am

Quite a few major markets like Germany, China or France where they cannot expand due to billaterals.

European and Asian carriers better competing non stop in that corridor.

Demand for air travel is finite.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:36 am

Maybe they're waiting on their 787-10s so they can open up some smaller markets.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:59 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Maybe they're waiting on their 787-10s so they can open up some smaller markets.


They may be waiting a while as the 787-10 order has not been finalized, nor the 20 A380.

One must assume they already are doing their most profitable routes, route selection goes from the best to worst opportunity.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:49 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Quite a few major markets like Germany, China or France where they cannot expand due to billaterals.

European and Asian carriers better competing non stop in that corridor..


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
When EK started, they started pretty much with a modern, super fuel efficient fleet against legacy airlines that still had plenty of fuel guzzlers in their fleets. Those now have 787s and A350s, burning a lot less fuel than the EK A388/77W fleet shifting the competitive advantage.
In the beginning there network was also focused where DXB was well located, now it is a "from everywhere to everywhere" network, where DXB often isn´t all that well located as a hub ....

Now EK is growing organically on its own strength, not the weakness of others. That has to slow things down.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Blerg
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:58 am

Was Zagreb the latest destination they added? It was launched in June 2018 I think. It didn't work out that well and it was turned into a seasonal route where flydubai operates in winter.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Quite a few major markets like Germany, China or France where they cannot expand due to billaterals.

European and Asian carriers better competing non stop in that corridor..


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
When EK started, they started pretty much with a modern, super fuel efficient fleet against legacy airlines that still had plenty of fuel guzzlers in their fleets. Those now have 787s and A350s, burning a lot less fuel than the EK A388/77W fleet shifting the competitive advantage.
In the beginning there network was also focused where DXB was well located, now it is a "from everywhere to everywhere" network, where DXB often isn´t all that well located as a hub ....

Now EK is growing organically on its own strength, not the weakness of others. That has to slow things down.

best regards
Thomas


"From everywhere to everywhere" is actually EK's largest competitive advantage, especially for customers from second/ third-tier cities.
For them, flying legacy means at lease 1 more legs then flying EK.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:34 am

The biggest issue is DXB. There really isn't much more they can do with a banked hub structure. Some of those 'banks' are now 6 hours long, which negates the convenience of a banked hub. If they keep building that out then they are either looking at many passengers either having 4+ hour connections or the opposite issue, certain flights not connecting with each other because they arrive too late/leave too early in the bank. In addition there are the upcoming runway works, even if they were still growing it makes sense to hold off until after June so they don't launch a route and then immediately reduce frequency. Not launching new flights now mean that they can serve the other destinations with a better schedule when DXB goes down to one runway.

The other issue is staffing. They struggle to pilot their current fleet, so rapidll growth is out of the question.

These two factors are both important, it's not just the pilot shortage. Even if pilot recruitment wasn't an issue they would still be limited with how much they can continue to grow at DXB.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
tommy1808
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:52 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Quite a few major markets like Germany, China or France where they cannot expand due to billaterals.

European and Asian carriers better competing non stop in that corridor..


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
When EK started, they started pretty much with a modern, super fuel efficient fleet against legacy airlines that still had plenty of fuel guzzlers in their fleets. Those now have 787s and A350s, burning a lot less fuel than the EK A388/77W fleet shifting the competitive advantage.
In the beginning there network was also focused where DXB was well located, now it is a "from everywhere to everywhere" network, where DXB often isn´t all that well located as a hub ....

Now EK is growing organically on its own strength, not the weakness of others. That has to slow things down.

best regards
Thomas


"From everywhere to everywhere" is actually EK's largest competitive advantage, especially for customers from second/ third-tier cities.
For them, flying legacy means at lease 1 more legs then flying EK.


Well, that is what i mean by EK own strength. It is not good for their costs per GC mile when they fly those detours. .

And, unless you are flying Europe-Australia it usually is the same amount or less segments if you fly legacy, or at least one stop options are available, even if US legacies may offer a cheaper two stop routing.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Bhoy
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:26 am

Blerg wrote:
Was Zagreb the latest destination they added? It was launched in June 2018 I think. It didn't work out that well and it was turned into a seasonal route where flydubai operates in winter.

They started Edinburgh in September, IIRC. No idea if there have been any new routes since, but that one was definitely in the last few months.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:30 am

I believe they also started STN in 2018 too.
 
B8887
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:51 am

It's pretty interesting, but I think they may have reached "cruise mode" and are fine with it.

They already fly 10 A380s a day to LON, for example, and in Europe save for a few adjustments here and there, growth may have peaked.

Just a comment about China. The sheer size of the population could in theory fuel some new routes, but it may never happen (bilaterals,etc).

And finally, are they still planning to move to DWC?.. I've heard nothing about that for eternities. They may be having second thoughts about that,no?

And still TK and the new airport will not be positive for them to put it mildly, even if they don't say it publicly. They may very well be revising their long term strategy because of them.

Regards.

B8887
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:58 am

PR and fanboys may not like it, but it is perfectly fine as long as frame utilization, PLF and mainly revenue increases within the system.

EK added net 13?? WBs last year, which is reasonable.

I think adding 36+ WBs in a calendar year is history. No airline can absorb that kind of capacity addition.
 
klm617
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:13 pm

Waiting patiently in Detroit. I think the current administration is the reason for the lack of expansion into the USA.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
iadadd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:20 pm

1) TK's growth and new airport
2) The advent of the 787/350 with other carriers has perhaps reduced the need for some passengers into connecting over Dubai
3) Emirates has essentially reached every major and many larger secondary cities that would posses a market.
4) Further growth is limited due to lack of NB and smaller WB aircraft. Although EK is attempting to answer this with an enhanced partnership with FZ
5) Pilot shortage

Overall, I think EK is doing just fine and are now working on making their operation more efficient and retaining their customer base.
 
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Mistral1
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:25 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Was Zagreb the latest destination they added? It was launched in June 2018 I think. It didn't work out that well and it was turned into a seasonal route where flydubai operates in winter.

They started Edinburgh in September, IIRC. No idea if there have been any new routes since, but that one was definitely in the last few months.


EK also launched SCL last july.
 
FatCat
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:28 pm

I still cannot understand how they can fill up with passengers a daily 77W to BLQ
that plane is bigger than the airport

slight revision, sometimes they also use a 77L
still is bigger than the airport
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:49 pm

What happened to "Wherever QR flies, so must EK"?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
What happened to "Wherever QR flies, so must EK"?


QR has A320s, not counting 30xG650s, EK cannot go wherever QR flies. Also, AAB can rethink C-Series/A220s.
 
directorguy
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:58 pm

They're now 3x daily to major regional markets like AMM, BEY, CAI, RUH etc excluding FZ that it's hard to see what more can be added in terms of frequency.
FZ tried a number of new cities then quickly ended service as well proving that even with NBs not every city can sustain a route to Dubai.
 
bhxalex
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:59 pm

As others have pointed out the lack of slots at DXB is the major issue, their banks have became so large that connections are getting longer and longer, factor in regular congestion delays at DXB and it makes the journey a lot less enjoyable for pax. Thus, EK are slowly losing their competitive advantage as the banks become spread out more.

EK would almost certainly fly to TXL, STR, YUL & YVR in a heartbeat if they could, but bilateral air service agreements are maxed out with Germany and Canada right now. This is likely the case with other nations too.

As for new destinations, is there really much attainable low hanging fruit left?

Sure if they had 788/789s or even if they'd kept the 332s, they could launch a lot of secondary cities in Europe and Asia.
Surabaya, Medan, Chiang Mai, Basel, Malaga, Porto to name just a few, would all be candidates for a sub 300 seat aircraft but the 77W and 388 are too much plane to test the waters of most unserved markets, theres not enough spare 77Ls either and there's only so far FZ 737s can go. But again, there's no room for smaller aircraft when DXB is already congested.

If DWC had gone to plan then maybe it would be a very different story.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:59 pm

In the moment, this financial year, EK growth is by adding A380. Next financial year they will add A380, 6, and reduce the number of 777 by 7. They are still growing slowly. The 787-10 are a MOU, the last 20 A380 are firm.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:10 pm

Can I ask why EK are suffering a pilot shortage ? Are their recruitment packages no longer competitive or are there other reasons ?
Last edited by JannEejit on Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:10 pm

bhxalex wrote:
As others have pointed out the lack of slots at DXB is the major issue, their banks have became so large that connections are getting longer and longer, factor in regular congestion delays at DXB and it makes the journey a lot less enjoyable for pax. Thus, EK are slowly losing their competitive advantage as the banks become spread out more.

EK would almost certainly fly to TXL, STR, YUL & YVR in a heartbeat if they could, but bilateral air service agreements are maxed out with Germany and Canada right now. This is likely the case with other nations too.

As for new destinations, is there really much attainable low hanging fruit left?

Sure if they had 788/789s or even if they'd kept the 332s, they could launch a lot of secondary cities in Europe and Asia.
Surabaya, Medan, Chiang Mai, Basel, Malaga, Porto to name just a few, would all be candidates for a sub 300 seat aircraft but the 77W and 388 are too much plane to test the waters of most unserved markets, theres not enough spare 77Ls either and there's only so far FZ 737s can go. But again, there's no room for smaller aircraft when DXB is already congested.

If DWC had gone to plan then maybe it would be a very different story.


CNX, DAD, PPS...
 
sixfootscream
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:27 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can I ask why EK are suffering a pilot shortage ? Are their recruitment pakages no longer competitive or are there other reasons ?


Youtube Windover Productions and look for "Why the world is running out of pilots" They have a bit on EK pilots that will answer your question.
 
migair54
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:33 pm

I don't agree with the statement, EK is expanding however maybe not as fast as before for some reasons like the lack of space at DXB.

Trying to remember now I can think of:
-EDI
-SCL
-STN
-AMS
-DPS-AKL
-FLL
-ZAG
-EWR
-ATH-EWR

and more freqs to GLA, ACC, CKY-DSS, ARN, YYZ, LAD, LIS, CMN, PRG, JNB...
And some more that I can't remember now.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:43 pm

migair54 wrote:
I don't agree with the statement, EK is expanding however maybe not as fast as before for some reasons like the lack of space at DXB.

Trying to remember now I can think of:
-EDI
-SCL
-STN
-AMS
-DPS-AKL
-FLL
-ZAG
-EWR
-ATH-EWR

and more freqs to GLA, ACC, CKY-DSS, ARN, YYZ, LAD, LIS, CMN, PRG, JNB...
And some more that I can't remember now.
can't speak for the rest, but GLA is going from 2x77W (has been for years) to 1x380 during the Runway works in DXB, and then to 1x77W+1x380 for the rest of the summer timetable, with a current plan to return to 2x77W in Winter 19/20.
So there's no more frequencies there, just a (temporary?) upgauge.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:28 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Three to four years ago, EK was rapidly expanding and announcing new destinations and additional frequencies. In recent years, though, the growth has been slow. What gives?


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The sum total of increase from the ongoing recruitment effort as of Jan 23? -6 pilots, I won’t go into the cabin crew resignations. Suffice to say that DXB isn’t anywhere near maxed out in terms of departure and arrival banks despite what the armchair experts on here claim.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:36 pm

migair54 wrote:
-AMS


Amsterdam is not a new destination, they've been flying there for many years. It's now 3x daily A380 I believe. A few years ago it was 2x daily A380 and 1x 777, but the 777 got upgraded to A380 as well.

No doubt they'd like to fly to Amsterdam more often, but there are restrictions in place.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:42 pm

iadadd wrote:
5) Pilot shortage


It seems that Emirates is heavily recruiting Ryanair pilots. Everyone who has worked for Ryanair for a few years gets a chance to move over to Emirates. Since Emirates pays better than Ryanair, most pilots take this opportunity. Ryanair, as one of the few airlines, still puts pilots with zero experience in the cockpit, straight from school. Once that experience is gained, they all move on.
 
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william
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:43 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Three to four years ago, EK was rapidly expanding and announcing new destinations and additional frequencies. In recent years, though, the growth has been slow. What gives?


Lack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crewsLack of crews

The sum total of increase from the ongoing recruitment effort as of Jan 23? -6 pilots, I won’t go into the cabin crew resignations. Suffice to say that DXB isn’t anywhere near maxed out in terms of departure and arrival banks despite what the armchair experts on here claim.


You seem to have inside knowledge of EK ops, does management know they are the problem and need to change or do they think their is an endless supply of pilots willing to be hired?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:53 pm

Wynnster8 wrote:
Dubai is Slot Restricted. That's why they been parking A380's and 777's at Dubai World Central.

Combine the physical limitations of DXB with bilateral limits and EK is stuck.

They are maxed out on India, China (viable routes), German (cities), and France. To grow other markets, they need more destinations on the other side of a convenient bank.

They lack the cash to build out DWC. (What is say $25 billion between friends?).

There is also a regional recession with the drop in Oil prices. This has reduced yeilds.

Emitates is no longer the Boogyman, they just cannot grow much for a long time. Cest la vie.

When the new IST properly opens, that will be the talk. Combined with the expansion at SAW, the ME3 have it tougher.

Plus, BLR amoung other Indian airports is expanding. I've always said the easy way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them with direct flights. IMHO the 797 will do more for Indian aviation than any other nation. This is despite the 30% (excludes HYD) fuel tax that allows connections to be competitive due to the inherent discount.

Lightsaber
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edealinfo
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:08 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Wynnster8 wrote:
Dubai is Slot Restricted. That's why they been parking A380's and 777's at Dubai World Central.

Combine the physical limitations of DXB with bilateral limits and EK is stuck.

They are maxed out on India, China (viable routes), German (cities), and France. To grow other markets, they need more destinations on the other side of a convenient bank.

They lack the cash to build out DWC. (What is say $25 billion between friends?).

There is also a regional recession with the drop in Oil prices. This has reduced yeilds.

Emitates is no longer the Boogyman, they just cannot grow much for a long time. Cest la vie.

When the new IST properly opens, that will be the talk. Combined with the expansion at SAW, the ME3 have it tougher.

Plus, BLR amoung other Indian airports is expanding. I've always said the easy way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them with direct flights. IMHO the 797 will do more for Indian aviation than any other nation. This is despite the 30% (excludes HYD) fuel tax that allows connections to be competitive due to the inherent discount.

Lightsaber

Could you elaborate on, “ This is despite...............discount”
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:23 pm

william wrote:
does management know they are the problem and need to change or do they think their is an endless supply of pilots willing to be hired?


They(mgmt) are 100% sure they are not the problem.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:44 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
iadadd wrote:
5) Pilot shortage


It seems that Emirates is heavily recruiting Ryanair pilots. Everyone who has worked for Ryanair for a few years gets a chance to move over to Emirates. Since Emirates pays better than Ryanair, most pilots take this opportunity. Ryanair, as one of the few airlines, still puts pilots with zero experience in the cockpit, straight from school. Once that experience is gained, they all move on.


The proof in the pudding is in the eating as they say, in this instance there has been a significant reverse flow of ex Ryanair crew back to Ryanair from EK, this came as a rude shock to the top floors at EK HQ whom we are led to believe had no idea that there was a crew shortage.
The reality is that rostering abuse, crippling workloads and an uncaring callous management attitude has led EK to where it is today, ask anyone who has flown for them for more than 5 minutes and 95% would advise against joining.
The aviation industry is very interconnected and flightcrew are no different, EKs modus operandi is now very well known, only the desperate, the inexperienced and the foolish are currently looking to join EK, that is the reality on the ground, meanwhile experience continues to leave without any effort being made to retain it.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:55 pm

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Wynnster8 wrote:
Dubai is Slot Restricted. That's why they been parking A380's and 777's at Dubai World Central.

Combine the physical limitations of DXB with bilateral limits and EK is stuck.

They are maxed out on India, China (viable routes), German (cities), and France. To grow other markets, they need more destinations on the other side of a convenient bank.

They lack the cash to build out DWC. (What is say $25 billion between friends?).

There is also a regional recession with the drop in Oil prices. This has reduced yeilds.

Emitates is no longer the Boogyman, they just cannot grow much for a long time. Cest la vie.

When the new IST properly opens, that will be the talk. Combined with the expansion at SAW, the ME3 have it tougher.

Plus, BLR amoung other Indian airports is expanding. I've always said the easy way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them with direct flights. IMHO the 797 will do more for Indian aviation than any other nation. This is despite the 30% (excludes HYD) fuel tax that allows connections to be competitive due to the inherent discount.

Lightsaber

Could you elaborate on, “ This is despite...............discount”

India taxes fuel at 30%. That adds 10% to 12% to the cost of long haul. DXB does not tax jet fuel. So a flight from DEL-JFK costs not only the added cost for longer ULH, but as only the short DEL-DXB leg pays the tax, it is an effective discount for EK.

There is nothing unfair. India handicaps their own airlines with high taxes on fuel and spare parts.
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edealinfo
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
India taxes fuel at 30%. That adds 10% to 12% to the cost of long haul. DXB does not tax jet fuel. So a flight from DEL-JFK costs not only the added cost for longer ULH, but as only the short DEL-DXB leg pays the tax, it is an effective discount for EK airli.





Doesn’t EMIRATES also have to pay the 30 percent tax on its own flight from DEL to DXB (since such a flight is originating from India)?
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:34 pm

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
India taxes fuel at 30%. That adds 10% to 12% to the cost of long haul. DXB does not tax jet fuel. So a flight from DEL-JFK costs not only the added cost for longer ULH, but as only the short DEL-DXB leg pays the tax, it is an effective discount for EK airli.


Doesn’t EMIRATES also have to pay the 30 percent tax on its own flight from DEL to DXB (since such a flight is originating from India)?


Yes, but he's saying that 30% is 30%, which favors EK the farther the pax flies as 30% DEL-DXB-XXX will always be cheaper than a competing nonstop on an Indian airline. The Indian airlines are forced to pay 30% on the fuel for DEL-JFK/SFO/XXX as they have to fly nonstop with the full fuel load which is a massive price increase and Indian airlines will pass that cost on to pax. For Emirates, as they make a stop in DXB where they refuel at a much cheaper price, they have a significant advantage as they only need enough fuel for DEL-DXB instead of the ULH nonstops from India. DEL-DXB is way shorter and a flat rate as all pax will pass through DXB regardless of their final destination whether it is JFK, SFO or wherever. The second and much longer leg, ie. DXB-JFK/SFO/XXX is where EK has the advantage as it is much longer than to DEL and as it originates in DXB, there is no fuel tax so it is 30% cheaper for Emirates, and those savings are passed onto the consumer. 30% on a short route+0% on a long route (EK DEL-DXB-SFO) is cheaper than 30% the entire way (India DEL-SFO). Thus DEL-DXB-XXX will always be cheaper than the Indian airlines. The stupidity of the Indian gov is practically what is keeping Indian airlines so uncompetitive against the ME3.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:34 pm

Even though emirates wont do this ...... they should go with more 787s 8 / 9 or 350s. They need smaller planes that can reach medium size markets. Medium sized airports cant fill a 777 or 380.

Like BA is in the United States is flying their 787s to Pittsburgh, Nashville, Oakland and other medium size airports. Creating more routes and creating new markets to enter. Emirates could do that world wide though .... not necessarily targeting the US.


OR emirates needs to get creative. I live near Buffalo, NY about 1 1/2 hours from Toronto, Canada. If Emirates wants to get around the Canadian restrictions, fly to Buffalo / BNIA and bus over the passengers to Toronto. Emirates does this in Seattle to Vancouver but its a much further bus ride. (4 hours and a border)
 
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:07 pm

Plus on the other side, Qatar continues to expand despite the crisis and Etihad cuts flights because of restructuring measures. Now Emirates has got lack of expansion. I think Qatar continues to grow now than EK does. Will QR be the largest airline of ME in the future?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:36 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Doesn’t EMIRATES also have to pay the 30 percent tax on its own flight from DEL to DXB (since such a flight is originating from India)?


Foreign carrier never pays taxes ATF, LN MX, MRO including all goods and services.

Few examples
Indian carriers don't pay taxes or anywhere else in the world except India. Some states have less tax on ATF. Foreign UDAN may offer airport fee waivers in future.
US carriers don't pay taxes or anywhere else in the world except in the USA, some states/cities may offer tax abatement.

Dubai carriers don't pay taxes anywhere in the world milking local no tax laws and ICAO rule at foreign stations. That is the rub.
 
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:10 am

sonicruiser wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
India taxes fuel at 30%. That adds 10% to 12% to the cost of long haul. DXB does not tax jet fuel. So a flight from DEL-JFK costs not only the added cost for longer ULH, but as only the short DEL-DXB leg pays the tax, it is an effective discount for EK airli.


Doesn’t EMIRATES also have to pay the 30 percent tax on its own flight from DEL to DXB (since such a flight is originating from India)?


Yes, but he's saying that 30% is 30%, which favors EK the farther the pax flies as 30% DEL-DXB-XXX will always be cheaper than a competing nonstop on an Indian airline. as they have to fly nonstop with the full fuel load which is a massive price increase and Indian airlines will pass that cost on to pax. For Emirates, as they make a stop in DXB where they refuel at a much cheaper price, they have a significant advantage as they only need enough fuel for DEL-DXB instead of the ULH nonstops from India. DEL-DXB is way shorter and a flat rate as all pax will pass through DXB regardless of their final destination whether it is JFK, SFO or wherever. The second and much longer leg, ie. DXB-JFK/SFO/XXX is where EK has the advantage as it is much longer than to DEL and as it originates in DXB, there is no fuel tax so it is 30% cheaper for Emirates, and those savings are passed onto the consumer. 30% on a short route+0% on a long route (EK DEL-DXB-SFO) is cheaper than 30% the entire way (India DEL-SFO). Thus DEL-DXB-XXX will always be cheaper than the Indian airlines. The stupidity of the Indian gov is practically what is keeping Indian airlines so uncompetitive against the ME3.

Thanks and explained well. I immediately caught it when you said...."The Indian airlines are forced to pay 30% on the fuel for DEL-JFK/SFO/XXX
 
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:13 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Doesn’t EMIRATES also have to pay the 30 percent tax on its own flight from DEL to DXB (since such a flight is originating from India)?


Foreign carrier never pays taxes ATF, LN MX, MRO including all goods and services.

Few examples
Indian carriers don't pay taxes or anywhere else in the world except India. Some states have less tax on ATF. Foreign UDAN may offer airport fee waivers in future.
US carriers don't pay taxes or anywhere else in the world except in the USA, some states/cities may offer tax abatement.

Dubai carriers don't pay taxes anywhere in the world milking local no tax laws and ICAO rule at foreign stations. That is the rub.


So you are saying that EK doesn't even pay the 30% on the DEL to DXB flight?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:16 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
EKs modus operandi is now very well known.


And, that is????? (assuming you meant something other than the tax advantage)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:32 am

edealinfo wrote:
So you are saying that EK doesn't even pay the 30% on the DEL to DXB flight?

It pays 0%, just like all other foreign carriers ex-India.

Post on Indian thread if you want to compare with other countries.
 
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:01 am

emiratesdriver wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Three to four years ago, EK was rapidly expanding and announcing new destinations and additional frequencies. In recent years, though, the growth has been slow. What gives?


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The sum total of increase from the ongoing recruitment effort as of Jan 23? -6 pilots, I won’t go into the cabin crew resignations. Suffice to say that DXB isn’t anywhere near maxed out in terms of departure and arrival banks despite what the armchair experts on here claim.

Thanks as always for your insiders view. I missed the whole "indefinite" DWC delay issue ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-duba ... SKCN1MD28Z ) till I read your posts.

lightsaber wrote:
They are maxed out on India, China (viable routes), German (cities), and France.

And times have changed. None of these entities are likely to increase any allocations. All now realize the fox is in the hen house.

lightsaber wrote:
They lack the cash to build out DWC. (What is say $25 billion between friends?).

Link above suggests it's grown to $36B. That's what happens when projects take longer to do than you anticipate, many costs multiply.

lightsaber wrote:
There is also a regional recession with the drop in Oil prices. This has reduced yeilds.

And the good old days of the oil cartel have passed. US and Russia produce as much oil as Saudi Arabia. Ground transportation is moving inexorably towards EVs. As you say, cest la vie.

lightsaber wrote:
Emitates is no longer the Boogyman, they just cannot grow much for a long time. Cest la vie.

And their longhaul fleet is powered by GE90, GP7200 and T900. That was a very good place to be in 2009. That's not a very good place to be in 2019.

lightsaber wrote:
When the new IST properly opens, that will be the talk. Combined with the expansion at SAW, the ME3 have it tougher.

TK the airline and Turkey the country have a lot of work to do before things tip in their favor, IMHO. The Dubai emirati know that (the external perception of) stability and good (great?) customer service matters. Personally, I've been offered some damn cheap fares to transition via IST and I've just said no. Friends have transitioned via IST and have said that while there were no geopolitical issues at play there were all kinds of impactful customer service issues to deal with. Caveat emptor.
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edealinfo
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Re: Emirates (EK) lack of expansion in recent years

Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:01 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
So you are saying that EK doesn't even pay the 30% on the DEL to DXB flight?

It pays 0%, just like all other foreign carriers ex-India.

Post on Indian thread if you want to compare with other countries.


I am respectfully saying that this makes no sense. If Indian carriers have to pay 30% tax on fuel to Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Thailand etc, but their counterparts carriers don't have to, how in the world could they remotely close to being competitive? It simply is not realistic. Something just doesn't add up.

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