KLM widebody shortage

777Mech · Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:13 am

No confirmation yet, but it looks like DL will be running extra sections on the ATL-AMS route until further notice due to a lack of aircraft available. They will be flown with A330 aircraft.

JAAlbert · Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:24 am

Tell us, what is going on? Is KL short on widebody aircraft or is its aircraft just in for maintenance or having the new plane engine issues?

ilovelamp · Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:39 am

777Mech wrote:
No confirmation yet, but it looks like DL will be running extra sections on the ATL-AMS route until further notice due to a lack of aircraft available. They will be flown with A330 aircraft.

Easily confirmed by the fact that pilots are already picking up these trips from open time.

ILL

777Mech · Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:03 am

JAAlbert wrote:
Tell us, what is going on? Is KL short on widebody aircraft or is its aircraft just in for maintenance or having the new plane engine issues?

I don't know, maybe someone from KL can elaborate, but to not have any spare aircraft in the event of a maintenance issue is quite surprising from an airline like KL.

asuflyer · Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:31 am

KL is not alone. Plenty of other European airlines are short WB’s, AY, IB, LO to name a few.

Flanker7 · Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:29 am

As of when because today's flight is operated normally.

juliuswong · Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:58 am

Shaheen has returned few A332 previously operated by KL. Time to pick them up again perhaps?

caaardiff · Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:32 am

It's a very vague post to make.
Can anyone confirm why they are short of widebodies? Is it maintenance/damage? Late deliveries? Crewing issues?

716131 · Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:07 am

juliuswong wrote:
Shaheen has returned few A332 previously operated by KL. Time to pick them up again perhaps?

Possibly. But not confirmed yet.

76er · Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:02 am

More 332s for KL seem highly unlikely to me, considering the slot cap at AMS and the lack of love KL seems to have for AB products sadly. If anything, KL needs bigger widebodies, not smaller.
Btw, I haven’t heard about a possible frame shortage. The 744 phaseout and subsequent arrival of the 787s has been going forward pretty much according to plan.

777Mech · Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:31 am

Flanker7 wrote:
As of when because today's flight is operated normally.

There are two AMS-ATL flights. KL623 (787-9) is operating normally. KL621 (772) is showing cancelled and DL9921 will be operating in it's place in about 4 hours.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/id/ ... 55-2-0-228

Flanker7 · Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:41 am

We had no word about widebody shortage. It could be that the 777 was needed elsewhere so the best way to fix that problem is to let Delta take over.

Mortyman · Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:49 am

76er wrote:
More 332s for KL seem highly unlikely to me, considering the slot cap at AMS and the lack of love KL seems to have for AB products sadly. If anything, KL needs bigger widebodies, not smaller.

They also operate the larger A333 version. They should get more of those.

chrisnh · Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:08 pm

I think it’s all Boston’s fault. :lol:

KICT · Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:06 pm

If they are short on widebody lift, why do they keep retiring widebody aircraft? They have retired multiple 747-400 and A330-200 jets in recent times.

Beatyair · Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:16 pm

Move the “Joon” aircraft over there until the 787-10’s are ready. Or grab some Singapore A330-300, like Air Canada did.

tlecam · Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:35 pm

Delta 9922 on a 333 is scheduled again tonight on the late departure.

Interesting to me that there is enough demand to run 4 flights a day, with DL picking up a KL flight given that Jan is a slow month.

sandyb123 · Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:38 pm

Weren’t Air France trying to of load a few A380s? AMS has 3 (?) A380 gates and stands so maybe this is a quick solution to both partners problems?

Sandyb123

factsonly · Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:42 pm

This is not the first time Delta operates KLM services.
Similar short-term JV cooperation has been seen in previous Winters.

DL / KL operate ATL-AMS 4x daily, in winter each carrier operates 2x daily. In Summer 3x DL and 1x KL.

The supporting DL A333 service AMS-ATL starts on January 27th, 2019 as today's extra flight has been cancelled:

- 26 Jan 2019 Amsterdam (AMS) Atlanta (ATL) DL9921 N817NW — 16:50 — 20:25 Canceled
- 27 Jan 2019 Amsterdam (AMS) Atlanta (ATL) DL9921 N817NW — 16:50 — 20:25 Scheduled
- 28 Jan 2019 Atlanta (ATL) Amsterdam (AMS) DL9922 N817NW — 22:25 — 12:25 Scheduled

FB330 · Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:46 pm

Looks like KL621 is cancelled for most of the week with Delta running the 333 instead. Indications are normal service resumes at the weekend but it could just be the Schipol website isn't up to date yet. My guess is a short maintenance issue for the 777s is the cause.

JAAlbert · Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
We had no word about widebody shortage. It could be that the 777 was needed elsewhere so the best way to fix that problem is to let Delta take over.

How does this substitution of airlines on a route work exactly? Must KL and/or DL get approval from the FAA and/or EU aviation authority before trading airlines on the route? How much notice does DL need to put one of it's planes on the route? I imagine DL must find qualified cabin and flight crews (and a spare plane or two) which must take a few days at least to organize. With the JV, does DL get an extra bump in income by using it's own plane and crew, or does it receive the same income regardless of whether KL or DL fly the route?

FB330 · Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:44 pm

At the moment, KL621 looks to resume on Thursday 31 January. Subject to change.

MIflyer12 · Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:53 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
We had no word about widebody shortage. It could be that the 777 was needed elsewhere so the best way to fix that problem is to let Delta take over.

How does this substitution of airlines on a route work exactly? Must KL and/or DL get approval from the FAA and/or EU aviation authority before trading airlines on the route? How much notice does DL need to put one of it's planes on the route? I imagine DL must find qualified cabin and flight crews (and a spare plane or two) which must take a few days at least to organize. With the JV, does DL get an extra bump in income by using it's own plane and crew, or does it receive the same income regardless of whether KL or DL fly the route?

DL has 148 long-haul widebodies - I would like to think they keep a few spares. Winter flying sees relatively lower utilization. No, they probably wouldn't want to fly this for weeks on end using only previously-scheduled reserves.

The JV shares revenues and profits on a metal-neutral basis.

EarlyLateORD · Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:34 pm

A friend and I are on KLM611 next month AMS-ORD in the 747M. It was my understanding this route was too switch to the 789, but is staying 747 for the time being due to cargo volume. Perhaps this is actually related to the widebody shortage?

Adam

juliuswong · Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:47 am

SQ789 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Shaheen has returned few A332 previously operated by KL. Time to pick them up again perhaps?

Possibly. But not confirmed yet.

If they do take them up again, the issue would be reconfiguration. Shaheen has 367 all-Y economy. KLM has C30 W35 Y178.

jfern022 · Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:40 am

As it stands right now DL will be covering until the 6th of February. They will run the extra section DL9921/2 to cover KL621/2. KL has one 772 out for damage for a couple weeks.

lavalampluva · Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:55 am

Does KL have more widebody aircraft undergoing mx than usual?

777Mech · Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:01 am

jfern022 wrote:
As it stands right now DL will be covering until the 6th of February. They will run the extra section DL9921/2 to cover KL621/2. KL has one 772 out for damage for a couple weeks.

I'm interested to find out what happened to that 772. It's crazy that they don't have any spare frames in case something like that happens.

ARNPEK · Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:53 am

Could be due to KL replacing the business class seats in their WB. Thought they were done though...

factsonly · Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:05 am

The KLM B777 fleet consists of:

- 15x B772
- 14x B77W

Currently 3x aircraft (10%) are out of service (no flights reported on FR24):

- B772 PH-BQO
- B77W PH-BVI
- B77W PH-BVK

As the long-haul fleet must be somewhat stretched (winter maintenance period), several B777 routes have seen cancellations in recent days:
- AMS-ATL covered by DL A333
- AMS-DXB
- AMS-PTY

- AMS-SFO is operated by B744 the coming days, instead of B789.

TOGA10 · Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:08 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
Weren’t Air France trying to of load a few A380s? AMS has 3 (?) A380 gates and stands so maybe this is a quick solution to both partners problems?

Sandyb123

I'm pretty sure the French union would not like this a lot.. there already is a big issue about how capacity is divided between the two of them.

Jetty · Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:04 pm

TOGA10 wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:
Weren’t Air France trying to of load a few A380s? AMS has 3 (?) A380 gates and stands so maybe this is a quick solution to both partners problems?

Sandyb123

I'm pretty sure the French union would not like this a lot.. there already is a big issue about how capacity is divided between the two of them.

That might also be part of the reason why KL has a small margin of reserve aircraft: French unions wouldn't like KL ordering more.

IWMBH · Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:09 pm

I don't know if the French unions have anything to do with this, I guess we will have to wait on some more sources to post on this issue.

seabosdca · Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:14 pm

KLM schedules very high aircraft utilization, so there's not a lot of slack in the event that more frames than planned are out for maintenance.

readytotaxi · Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:23 pm

Does KLM use Titan Airways when stuck?

FlightLevel360 · Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:45 pm

SQ789 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Shaheen has returned few A332 previously operated by KL. Time to pick them up again perhaps?

Possibly. But not confirmed yet.

Isn't Shaheen out of business? United is gobbling up their 319s.

FlyRow · Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:14 pm

ARNPEK wrote:
Could be due to KL replacing the business class seats in their WB. Thought they were done though...

If i recall correctly they aren't anymore. Whole fleet is lie-flat now.

FlyRow · Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:16 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Does KLM use Titan Airways when stuck?

Not particulary... They could, they might, but they could just as well use HiFly or another.

However, using Delta is easier as it's a "free' sub as the JV allows neutral planes.

FlyRow · Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:18 pm

Jetty wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:
Weren’t Air France trying to of load a few A380s? AMS has 3 (?) A380 gates and stands so maybe this is a quick solution to both partners problems?

Sandyb123

I'm pretty sure the French union would not like this a lot.. there already is a big issue about how capacity is divided between the two of them.

That might also be part of the reason why KL has a small margin of reserve aircraft: French unions wouldn't like KL ordering more.

And what would KLM want with A380's, even in a pinch.
The planes would offer first class & premium economy, which KLM doesn't have, and would be flying half-empty at higher operating cost.

sandyb123 · Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:52 pm

FlyRow wrote:
And what would KLM want with A380's, even in a pinch.
The planes would offer first class & premium economy, which KLM doesn't have, and would be flying half-empty at higher operating cost.

AF/KLM knows best, but of course they could be retrofitted to a KL compatible cabin layout. Despite them being fairly Y heavy they do have some premium demand out of Amsterdam.

Sandyb123

ikolkyo · Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:55 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
And what would KLM want with A380's, even in a pinch.
The planes would offer first class & premium economy, which KLM doesn't have, and would be flying half-empty at higher operating cost.

AF/KLM knows best, but of course they could be retrofitted to a KL compatible cabin layout. Despite them being fairly Y heavy they do have some premium demand out of Amsterdam.

Sandyb123

In a KLM layout it would have far too many seats to fill and they can’t use the A380 to haul cargo either which is a big thing for KLM.

FlyRow · Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:06 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
And what would KLM want with A380's, even in a pinch.
The planes would offer first class & premium economy, which KLM doesn't have, and would be flying half-empty at higher operating cost.

AF/KLM knows best, but of course they could be retrofitted to a KL compatible cabin layout. Despite them being fairly Y heavy they do have some premium demand out of Amsterdam.

Sandyb123

In a KLM layout it would have far too many seats to fill and they can’t use the A380 to haul cargo either which is a big thing for KLM.

Especially if they are a sub-aircraft / interim aircraft as someone stated.
Plus, as many threads here have stated and KLM themselves has stated: They don't want/need A380's.

seabosdca · Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:52 pm

To synthesize a couple of threads... maybe they need a couple of fire-sale EY 77Ws.

Jetty · Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:09 pm

seabosdca wrote:
To synthesize a couple of threads... maybe they need a couple of fire-sale EY 77Ws.

Or brand new 77W's, Boeing has short-term production-slots available and KL has similarly bought 2 new 77W's ~2 years ago.

716131 · Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:02 am

FlightLevel360 wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Shaheen has returned few A332 previously operated by KL. Time to pick them up again perhaps?

Possibly. But not confirmed yet.

Isn't Shaheen out of business? United is gobbling up their 319s.

They are already out of Business. UA is getting their A319's and possibly A320's too. 1 of their A320's are already flown with LaudaMotion. I bet KLM is interested to lease their A332's which was once flew with KLM until 2016.

FB330 · Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:32 am

Is KL621 still expecting to resume on the 7th Feb?

Also, any news on what caused damage to a T7?

FB330 · Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:16 pm

Looks like Delta are running this service until at least Friday 8th February. The Schipol site showing both the Delta and KLM 16:50 departures on Saturday 9th. Wonder how much longer this is set to continue?

factsonly · Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:35 pm

Delta has filed the following:

- 14 Feb 2019 DL8817 Atlanta (ATL) - Amsterdam (AMS) 333 — 22:25 — 12:25 Scheduled
- 13 Feb 2019 DL8817 Atlanta (ATL) - Amsterdam (AMS) 333 — 22:25 — 12:25 Scheduled
- 08 Feb 2019 DL8817 Atlanta (ATL) - Amsterdam (AMS) A333 (N820NW) — 22:25 — 12:25 Scheduled
- 07 Feb 2019 DL8817 Atlanta (ATL) - Amsterdam (AMS) A333 (N820NW) — 22:25 — 12:25 Scheduled
- 06 Feb 2019 DL8817 Atlanta (ATL) - Amsterdam (AMS) A333 (N820NW)

777Mech · Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:32 am

Looks like KLM needs to order some more airplanes.

FrancisBegbie · Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:56 am

777Mech wrote:
Looks like KLM needs to order some more airplanes.

KLM is not going to order anything new until Mr Smith’s plans for KLM have become clear and accepted in the perpetual us-vs-them struggle between Amsterdam and Paris.

Dutch news floats stories of Smith and KLM’s president Elbers (popular with staff and arguably very successful) getting along very poorly. So there’s fireworks ahead.

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