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Zoedyn
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Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:03 am

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compan ... a-and-Asia

Per Nikkei Asian Review, PR is expanding its routes and adding new destinations (eg, New Delhi, Hanoi, Phnom Phnom) ahead of the entry of a new strategic investor, with aspirations for Manila to become a gateway hub for Southeast Asia and South Asia toward North America

PR already has the widest route network of any Southeast Asian airline to NA, with 43 weekly flights to NYC, LAX, YYZ, SFO, HNL, YVR

The report also points out some big challenges PR faces in its goal: stiff competition from bigger Asian airlines with similar ambitions like SQ, CX, NH, and the obvious congestion of MNL in dire need of upgrades


Certainly an ambitious goal for PR. But is it too late already for PR to come up with such ambitions even when MNL is geographically well positioned in a vast and densely populated region in the regard?

Interesting to see whether this remains a pipe dream only or PR has a real chance to pull it off with smart strategy backed by strong action, like what AY has been doing with HEL with great success in the Europe-East Asia niche
Last edited by Zoedyn on Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:04 am

When will PR start flights to New Delhi? And how many weekly frequencies will it have?
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:15 am

Not before either major improvements to MNL (very difficult due to no available land and only one runway) or a new airport.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
peak86
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:44 am

This will work great at an airport that DHS just determined doesn't meet minimum security/screening standards!
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:54 am

Que the BOS and DTW are at the top of the list replies.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:14 am

Unfortunately, ICN and PEK are better suited geographically and their North American flights don't involve costly fuel tankering. Ditto Tokyo, but JL/NH aren't as interested in low yield transit VFR markets.
 
MastaHanky
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:27 am

Oh good, I was tired of paying the exorbitant $400 round trips you can find LAX-southeast Asia. :lol:
 
Varsity1
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:03 am

MNL is way out of the way for that!
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:31 am

MNL is just adding to a list of onward-destination airports throughout the region. From the more traditional locations like Narita and Incheon, there are new developing locations like PVG, PEK and even HKG and TPE that will also be in that category for travellers, What will help differentiate MNL from the others? Pricing of their flights to be in line with what China Eastern/Air China does with their pricing. And right now that is going to be hard to beat, speaking from experience.
 
TheKennady2
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:11 am

They have Rumored ORD for a while, A A350 4-5 times weekly could work.
 
raylee67
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:12 am

MNL is definitely geographically well positioned for that. But its competitors are well established CX/HKG, BR/TPE, CI/TPE, JL/NRT, NH/NRT, OZ/ICN and KE/ICN. PR and MNL have a long way to go from here. MNL as an airport, although has seen major improvement when the new terminal opened, is still lagging far behind those competing airports in terms of infrastructure and efficiency. There are also frequent news reports of chronic corruption of the security force and customs at MNL. For example, there has been reports that they stuff bullet shells into checked-in luggage and then accuse the passengers of smuggling weapons, which is a serious offence. Same goes for drugs. This is far more difficult to fix than the infrastructure. PR's repetition on its own service is also way behind of the competitors.

At this point, all they can compete on is price, but on that front, they are facing stiff competition from CZ, MU, HU and CA, etc. However, transiting through China has its own hassle, where flights are constantly delayed and somehow you need to pass through transit immigration (separate from immigration for passengers entering the country).
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
a19901213
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:32 am

Why would I choose MNL/PR over BR, CX, OZ, JL when I can easily find cheap tickets these days.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:27 am

PAL is not in a Good geographical location. Buy them a map. Doomed for failure.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:36 am

I still wonder if PAL will fly to SEA...not that SEA is saturated already.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:40 am

MastaHanky wrote:
Oh good, I was tired of paying the exorbitant $400 round trips you can find LAX-southeast Asia.

^ This.

They're not going to differentiate themselves on geography or "service" against the likes of CX et al, so what's really the point?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:48 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Per Nikkei Asian Review, PR is expanding its routes and adding new destinations (eg, New Delhi, Hanoi, Phnom Phnom) ahead of the entry of a new strategic investor, with aspirations for Manila to become a gateway hub for Southeast Asia and South Asia toward North America


If I were this tentative "strategic investor", this would give me pause.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:13 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
PAL is not in a Good geographical location. Buy them a map. Doomed for failure.


It's not too bad for South East Asia. For example LAX > MNL > PNH or ORD > MNL > PNH is only 400 nautical miles or so further than a direct flight. However for South Asia it is way too far east. For example ORD > MNL > DEL is 3000 nautical miles further than ORD > DEL (almost 50% more distance in fact).

Having lived in Philippines previously (near both MNL and CEB), and having never chosen Philippine Airlines over pretty much any other carrier, their whole brand would need a complete makeover.

Add to that the fact that MNL is not an airport you'd want to spend more than 5 minutes in, terminal 3 excepted. Terminal 1 had ZERO running water for several weeks during my last visits, for example. You most definitely wouldn't want a terminal change during a connection... unless you wanted a good chance of missing it.

Finally, can you ever trust anything that is promised with regard to MNL? The whole farce over the ownership and use of Terminal 3 being a point in question.
 
YYZflyboy
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:27 am

They better find an alliance to join! Right now, there's no room for one. OneWorld has CX and MH within 2-3 hours of MNL. Star Alliance has SQ and TG nearby (and both are in ASEAN countries). Skyteam has VN and GA in its neighborhood (also in ASEAN countries).

Very tough to beat, unless they team up with EY.
 
Akiestar
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:55 am

Oh, boy. Where to begin with all of this. :roll:

edealinfo wrote:
When will PR start flights to New Delhi? And how many weekly frequencies will it have?


This was discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411185

PR will have 4x weekly MNL-DEL frequencies, although the timings don't work for most connections. Although this can change depending on what slots they get, PR has said that they're also banking on O/D to make DEL work. HAN and PNH, on the other hand, are better timed for connections, particularly to/from North America.

peak86 wrote:
This will work great at an airport that DHS just determined doesn't meet minimum security/screening standards!


Ironic given that Trump had shut down the federal government for three weeks and nearly imperiled those same safety and security standards stateside, right?

Anyway, the MIAA has stated that they've been addressing those concerns, and most have been addressed.

TheKennady2 wrote:
They have Rumored ORD for a while, A A350 4-5 times weekly could work.

wedgetail737 wrote:
I still wonder if PAL will fly to SEA...not that SEA is saturated already.


ORD and SEA are the strongest contenders for new North America service based on what I've been hearing.

raylee67 wrote:
There are also frequent news reports of chronic corruption of the security force and customs at MNL. For example, there has been reports that they stuff bullet shells into checked-in luggage and then accuse the passengers of smuggling weapons, which is a serious offence. Same goes for drugs. This is far more difficult to fix than the infrastructure.


The MIAA has said that they're addressing this as part of addressing the TSA's concerns over safety procedures at MNL. They're getting the NBI involved in conducting more thorough background checks, for one, and urging them to open a center at the airport so that employees don't have to trek all the way to Ermita just to get their clearances.

raylee67 wrote:
PR's repetition on its own service is also way behind of the competitors.


They seem to be catching up though as far as I'm concerned. They're not SQ or CX, yes, but I wouldn't think it's as behind as you say it is. Again, they wouldn't have gotten that four-star rating for nothing (and they're aiming for five by 2020!), with good press to boot.

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
Per Nikkei Asian Review, PR is expanding its routes and adding new destinations (eg, New Delhi, Hanoi, Phnom Phnom) ahead of the entry of a new strategic investor, with aspirations for Manila to become a gateway hub for Southeast Asia and South Asia toward North America


If I were this tentative "strategic investor", this would give me pause.


Given that the strategic investor is rumored to be NH, and given their relationship so far, I'm at a loss as to how you think this is reckless to the extent that NH might pull out entirely. (NH, yes, has acknowledged that they were in talks but nothing has been concluded yet, but still, the point stands.)

Virtual737 wrote:
Having lived in Philippines previously (near both MNL and CEB), and having never chosen Philippine Airlines over pretty much any other carrier, their whole brand would need a complete makeover.


When was the last time you flew PR? They've been undergoing that brand makeover for a while now; after all, they wouldn't have gone through the effort of getting their four-star Skytrax rating (for whatever it's worth) for nothing, right?

Granted the last time I flew PR was in 2016, but even then I've noticed serious changes happening in the way they provide their service. I've said it before here and I'll say it again: the PR of today is not the PR of ten years ago.

Virtual737 wrote:
Add to that the fact that MNL is not an airport you'd want to spend more than 5 minutes in, terminal 3 excepted. Terminal 1 had ZERO running water for several weeks during my last visits, for example. You most definitely wouldn't want a terminal change during a connection... unless you wanted a good chance of missing it.

Finally, can you ever trust anything that is promised with regard to MNL? The whole farce over the ownership and use of Terminal 3 being a point in question.


Wow, seriously, when was the last time you flew through MNL?

* Terminal 1 has been renovated. The bathrooms were fine last time I checked, and that was in September of last year.
* PR operates a free airside shuttle bus service between Terminals 1, 2 and 3 for the benefit of their connecting passengers, and they've been offering this service for the last few years now. If you think PR-PR connections, particularly international ones, still necessitates going through immigration and hailing a taxi, you're sorely mistaken.
* Terminal 3's ownership and use questions have been resolved years ago! International airlines have already moved in, the Supreme Court has ruled that the government has to compensate PIATCO (and, by and large, they've complied!), and the terminal has been fully operational for the last couple of years now. This isn't 2008.

Inasmuch as I also believe the government has a tendency to promise pie-in-the-sky fixes for MNL, the reality on the ground is that MNL today is much better than what it was ten years ago. Heck, even five years ago!

YYZflyboy wrote:
They better find an alliance to join! Right now, there's no room for one. OneWorld has CX and MH within 2-3 hours of MNL. Star Alliance has SQ and TG nearby (and both are in ASEAN countries). Skyteam has VN and GA in its neighborhood (also in ASEAN countries).

Very tough to beat, unless they team up with EY.


I can't say anything for OW or Star, but for SkyTeam they explicitly said that GA and VN were to serve as feeders for Indonesian and Vietnamese passengers respectively to their wider network. HAN, SGN and CGK aren't really transit hubs either, so PR can certainly find its niche there if they have a stronger game than GA and VN at getting transit passengers.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:35 am

Akiestar wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Having lived in Philippines previously (near both MNL and CEB), and having never chosen Philippine Airlines over pretty much any other carrier, their whole brand would need a complete makeover.


When was the last time you flew PR? They've been undergoing that brand makeover for a while now; after all, they wouldn't have gone through the effort of getting their four-star Skytrax rating (for whatever it's worth) for nothing, right?

Granted the last time I flew PR was in 2016, but even then I've noticed serious changes happening in the way they provide their service. I've said it before here and I'll say it again: the PR of today is not the PR of ten years ago.

Virtual737 wrote:
Add to that the fact that MNL is not an airport you'd want to spend more than 5 minutes in, terminal 3 excepted. Terminal 1 had ZERO running water for several weeks during my last visits, for example. You most definitely wouldn't want a terminal change during a connection... unless you wanted a good chance of missing it.

Finally, can you ever trust anything that is promised with regard to MNL? The whole farce over the ownership and use of Terminal 3 being a point in question.


Wow, seriously, when was the last time you flew through MNL?


You missed my point, or I didn't make it clear enough.

PR's image to me is based on my experiences and exposure to it. Until they do enough to make me want to fly them they haven't done enough... for me. Your experiences and exposure to their new brand / image might have changed your opinion, but it hasn't changed mine, yet.

As for MNL, the very fact that they thought it was acceptable for there to be no running water for several weeks (during the renovations admittedly) was totally unacceptable. I wouldn't choose to fly through MNL (if there were other options) because they might have decided that it was OK to turn off something else (that I think is a basic requirement) while they make further improvements, or for whatever reason. A major terminal in a major airport should not be open without running water unless it was an absolute emergency.

This lack of water made the place a cesspit. It was as if I was visiting my other half's family in the provinces and choosing between the pee-pee bush or the poo-poo tree, and this was in the lounges as well as the open areas. The lounges were Paggs (which was never good - can't understand why Etihad ever use them) and The Manila Club (or whatever the bigger lounge around the corner from Paggs is called).
 
Virtual737
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:42 am

Akiestar wrote:
* Terminal 3's ownership and use questions have been resolved years ago! International airlines have already moved in, the Supreme Court has ruled that the government has to compensate PIATCO (and, by and large, they've complied!), and the terminal has been fully operational for the last couple of years now. This isn't 2008.


I missed this bit. Again, my point was that it happened in the first place. Yes it was finally resolved, after many years, but not without a lot of effort and legal action from the non Philippine airlines that were screwed over.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:45 am

More the number of flights to the North America from the ASEAN market, the lesser the price of the tickets. It is all basic economics really. So, it is a win for us consumers. As long as the competition is healthy, there is nothing to worry about. Hence, all the whining in this thread is completely meaningless.
 
fusionliner
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:22 pm

I feel like there has been a lot of assumptions and jump conclusions based on precieved biases and misconceptions of the past. Yes, some of what’s been said is true but a lot has been changing.

There have been an increase of travelers flying the kangaroo route and a lot more Asian travelers connecting in MNL to destinations in North Asia. NAIA is definately not perfect, but in the meantime, PR has free airside terminal transfers and has set up a transit lounge in MNL and that offers sofas, daybeds, food/drinks, showers for overnight connecting flights as you can see in this trip report by an Indonesian Vlogger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5eY8OrWZzk

SEAsia and the Philippines have growing middle and upper classes that are willing to spend money to travel. You can see this already in a lot of tourism figures both inbound to Philippines and outbound to Asia especially. The economy is also growing very rapidly in the country, so there is more business traffic coming into the country. It might seem small compared to a lot of other countries now, but it’s defintely growing.

In regards to North America, PR actually charges a premium. More often than not, they are the most expensive option from Manila-North America because many (especially the older generation) would spend the $ to fly non-stop. Encouraging more transit passengers would enhance the market they already have that wants to pay to fly PAL direct, but also price competitively for new transit passengers who otherwise would have flown to another Asian hub. based on PAL’s marketing and advertising, they are really targeting millennial travelers as a new source of growth to Philippines and to Southeast Asia and locals within SE Asia. They must have confidence based on their North American frequency expansion this summer:

LAX -17x Weekly,
SFO - 14x Weekly
JFK Daily
YYZ Daily


Regarding the airports Right now the airport infrastructure is DRAMATICALLY changing throughout the country. Many of the airports are getting bid out to private operators as PPP’s that will improve the aviation industry in The Philippines. CEB is one example of the success in revitalizing and reimagining the Philippines airport infrastructure.

NAIA is in the final stages of getting awarded to a consortium (that includes PAL's owner, the LT Group) for a multibillion dollar upgrade/management contract which will help grow MNL for the next 15 years.

CRK's new terminal is under construction and will see it serve 8 million passengers starting in 2020 and has a development plan that envisions it to serve 60-100 million ppl. A new USD $15 billion rail line will also start construction next month that will serve as both a commuter and airport express line to CRK and will connect MNL through the also soon to be constructed Metro Manila Subway.

Bulacan may also be home to a brand new multibillion dollar, 100 million pax planned airport courtesy of San Miguel Corp and is envisioned to be served by a rail line and multiple new expressways to Manila. if all goes well with their approvals, it may be a battle between CRK and Bulacan

Sangley Point is being developed as a turboprop and general aviation hub and also has preliminary plans for a multi billion dollar airport project that’s a joint venture between a Chinese consortium and the Cavite Govt. looks like more of a pipe dream, but could also be something concrete In the next few years.

Anyways, the point is, there is lots happening in the country that makes this strategic plan viable. If you really do your research, a lot of development and economic growth is happening. International media paints an unfair lense I find on the Philippines and a lot of these positive stories rarely get front page coverage.

I hope I helped put some perspective into this.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:59 pm

In the past PR has not been price competitive with CX and BR, and so I have not flown them internationally (they have been my choice flying MNL-DPL). But I just did a quick fare comparison and they now are within a few dollars of CX for JFK-MNL. There is a huge advantage for us in flying PR internationally and connecting to the domestic flight, and that is baggage fees. The last time (2017) I went I flew CX (and stayed 5 months), and the baggage fees for MNL-DPL were almost as much as the fare. But if you book a domestic flight in conjunction with an international flight the baggage allowance is the same on both. The only question for us is whether we can do that and stay a few days in Manila, as we have friends and family there. But I believe that if you book the flights at the same time you can. Of course, being a diehard Boeing fan I would prefer to fly on a 77W, but you rarely can have everything.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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flymco753
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:07 pm

nomorerjs wrote:
Que the BOS and DTW are at the top of the list replies.
More like, queue the "ORD and DFW are the center of the world" replies.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:34 pm

PR might be able to pull this off, if they had a US partner. That might be difficult given the agreements already in place,but given DL(NW) history in The Philippines, probably would be the best match. Not sure it would make China Airlines, Vietnam Airlines and Garuda too happy, but cooperation with those 3 is not like Korean or China Eastern....
 
Akiestar
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:36 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
You missed my point, or I didn't make it clear enough.

PR's image to me is based on my experiences and exposure to it. Until they do enough to make me want to fly them they haven't done enough... for me. Your experiences and exposure to their new brand / image might have changed your opinion, but it hasn't changed mine, yet.

As for MNL, the very fact that they thought it was acceptable for there to be no running water for several weeks (during the renovations admittedly) was totally unacceptable. I wouldn't choose to fly through MNL (if there were other options) because they might have decided that it was OK to turn off something else (that I think is a basic requirement) while they make further improvements, or for whatever reason. A major terminal in a major airport should not be open without running water unless it was an absolute emergency.

This lack of water made the place a cesspit. It was as if I was visiting my other half's family in the provinces and choosing between the pee-pee bush or the poo-poo tree, and this was in the lounges as well as the open areas. The lounges were Paggs (which was never good - can't understand why Etihad ever use them) and The Manila Club (or whatever the bigger lounge around the corner from Paggs is called).


Unless you tell me otherwise, what I see is you jumping to conclusions because they haven't "done enough to make you want to fly them". Makes me want to ask when was the last time you flew them and how high your bar is, because what you're showing me is that your bar is unreasonably high, especially considering factors well outside PR's control (e.g. the infrastructure at MNL, of which the Philippine government rightfully deserves the blame).

I didn't like traveling through MNL during the renovations either, but one thing I've learned from all the time I've spent in the air is I've learned to adjust my expectations accordingly. I have a very low bar for what I expect from MNL, which of course include functioning toilets and a clean environment, because my expectations will not magically turn the airport into HKG or SIN. The best hope so far is for the government to finally get its act together and build out a new airport, upon which we can demand those expectations. People suffered at CEB for years, and now that CEB opened (the definitely beautiful) Terminal 2 it's as if everything is right again, right?

Aside from that, judging from your experiences with the lounges, it must've been a while since you last passed through MNL. The PAGSS lounge is no longer on the fourth floor and hasn't been for several years now; it has since moved to the third floor, and that lounge was decent (but not great!) for a 6:00 am flight on MU. Club Manila had been extensively renovated, and that was in 2013. You should pass by the airport again when you get the chance.

Virtual737 wrote:
I missed this bit. Again, my point was that it happened in the first place. Yes it was finally resolved, after many years, but not without a lot of effort and legal action from the non Philippine airlines that were screwed over.


The non-Philippine airlines had nothing to do with addressing the legal issues of Terminal 3. And when they do make noise, the government has obliged: KL for example complained about the tax regime and the government addressed those issues, yet KL has yet to restore non-stop AMS-MNL service despite promising to do so once that issue was addressed. As a forumer outside A.net has said: it's but a farce from the airlines, and what a farce it was.

SEPilot wrote:
In the past PR has not been price competitive with CX and BR, and so I have not flown them internationally (they have been my choice flying MNL-DPL). But I just did a quick fare comparison and they now are within a few dollars of CX for JFK-MNL. There is a huge advantage for us in flying PR internationally and connecting to the domestic flight, and that is baggage fees. The last time (2017) I went I flew CX (and stayed 5 months), and the baggage fees for MNL-DPL were almost as much as the fare. But if you book a domestic flight in conjunction with an international flight the baggage allowance is the same on both. The only question for us is whether we can do that and stay a few days in Manila, as we have friends and family there. But I believe that if you book the flights at the same time you can. Of course, being a diehard Boeing fan I would prefer to fly on a 77W, but you rarely can have everything.


This is definitely doable, but you should do your MNL stopover on the flight back to JFK, rather than on the flight to DPL. That way, you're able to bring the balikbayan boxes and all the other things you need there, and not worry about having to lug them with you to MNL.
Last edited by Akiestar on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dolphinflyer
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:41 pm

The Sacramento region has a large Filipino population, but at present they all drive to SFO to catch nonstop flights to MNL on PR. If SMF had a longer runway (10,000' iso current 8,600'), then nonstop service between SMF and MNL could become a reality. Same concept goes for San Diego and their huge Filipino population, but SAN's single 9,600 ft. runway isn't long enough to handle nonstop flights to/from MNL.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:16 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
PAL is not in a Good geographical location. Buy them a map. Doomed for failure.


They don't even need to spend money for a map - Great Circle Mapper is free. They'll be geograpically impaired and going up against some entrenched carriers with excellent facilities and extensive North American reach. The headline might as well have been PA Board Decides to Burn Bails of Money.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:29 pm

Akiestar wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Zoedyn wrote:
Per Nikkei Asian Review, PR is expanding its routes and adding new destinations (eg, New Delhi, Hanoi, Phnom Phnom) ahead of the entry of a new strategic investor, with aspirations for Manila to become a gateway hub for Southeast Asia and South Asia toward North America


If I were this tentative "strategic investor", this would give me pause.


Given that the strategic investor is rumored to be NH, and given their relationship so far, I'm at a loss as to how you think this is reckless to the extent that NH might pull out entirely. (NH, yes, has acknowledged that they were in talks but nothing has been concluded yet, but still, the point stands).


If I were NH, I'd be concerned that my tentative investment is going towards building out another sixth-freedom hub that not only competes with my own Tokyo hubs but centers on an airport that in spite of improvements is still heavily operationally challenged to put it mildly. And it would be all for traffic flows that are 1. Not especially high revenue given the sheer distance involved and 2. Already subject to significant sixth freedom competition from Japanese/Korean carriers, the massive explansion of air service from China, and even the ME3.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of the financial/strategic potential of this move. It's not like there aren't already a dozen other sixth-freedom hubs for North America-SE/South Asia traffic and I fail to see what kind of killer edge PR has in this already crowded space.
 
Bobby27ph
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:41 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
PAL is not in a Good geographical location. Buy them a map. Doomed for failure.


Lols, someone wanna teach about geography...

Ignorance, at its best lols
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c933103
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:51 pm

How many transfer customer do they have on their HNL flight which they probably have larger competitive advantage?
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
Akiestar
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:02 pm

c933103 wrote:
How many transfer customer do they have on their HNL flight which they probably have larger competitive advantage?


HNL is primarily driven by O/D as opposed to connecting traffic, owing to the large Filipino population of Hawaii.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:19 pm

Akiestar wrote:

SEPilot wrote:
In the past PR has not been price competitive with CX and BR, and so I have not flown them internationally (they have been my choice flying MNL-DPL). But I just did a quick fare comparison and they now are within a few dollars of CX for JFK-MNL. There is a huge advantage for us in flying PR internationally and connecting to the domestic flight, and that is baggage fees. The last time (2017) I went I flew CX (and stayed 5 months), and the baggage fees for MNL-DPL were almost as much as the fare. But if you book a domestic flight in conjunction with an international flight the baggage allowance is the same on both. The only question for us is whether we can do that and stay a few days in Manila, as we have friends and family there. But I believe that if you book the flights at the same time you can. Of course, being a diehard Boeing fan I would prefer to fly on a 77W, but you rarely can have everything.


This is definitely doable, but you should do your MNL stopover on the flight back to JFK, rather than on the flight to DPL. That way, you're able to bring the balikbayan boxes and all the other things you need there, and not worry about having to lug them with you to MNL.

We usually spend a few days in Manila on both ends. This year we are planning on staying only two months. We had a lot of baggage last time because we were bringing baby things that our daughter had outgrown for my wife’s brother’s newborn daughter. That included a playpen that we used during our time there but then left with them. We will be traveling much lighter this time, but the baggage fees are still significant on a domestic flight, so it is still worth avoiding them.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:08 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
PAL is not in a Good geographical location. Buy them a map. Doomed for failure.


Depends where you are flying. Going through MNL to get to SGN, KUL, DPS, CGK, etc is not out of the way.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:21 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Not before either major improvements to MNL (very difficult due to no available land and only one runway) or a new airport.

I'm even okay with what members of SkyscraperCity derisively call "SM Terminal" if they would build it at NAIA..... :wideeyed: .....

Image
https://scontent.fmnl4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/ ... e=5CCF870B

posted by: -SNPKLSDMBLDR-

That should make it easier to convert into an all-in-one mall when the contract period ends. :biggrin:


ShinyAndChrome wrote:
If I were NH, I'd be concerned that my tentative investment is going towards building out another sixth-freedom hub that not only competes with my own Tokyo hubs but centers on an airport that in spite of improvements is still heavily operationally challenged to put it mildly.

Completely out of left field and based on nothing at all --- what if the putative investor is also agreeable to the direction PAL is taking and might indeed see it as a good strategic move :confused: I mean, it's not like they're not communicating their intentions when they talk. :expressionless: :ziplip: :shhh:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
LurveBus
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:32 pm

PAL’s bread and butter is MNL o/d. Any connections that they sell given MNL’s limited infrastructure is icing on the cake.

One could also argue that MNL’s limited slots give a premium to PAL’s services, especially as future growth spills over to CRK.

Anyway, I’d take those statements about being a connecting carrier with a grain of salt. Of course they won’t say no to selling connections. And there are some niche routes where they have a competitive advantage (like POM). But at the end of the day, they’re still gonna be all about o/d.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:12 am

flymco753 wrote:
nomorerjs wrote:
Que the BOS and DTW are at the top of the list replies.
More like, queue the "ORD and DFW are the center of the world" replies.


I don’t hijack every damn thread an turn it into ORD / DFW vs. the world.

DTW has a poster that is critical about everything in the DTW thread, yet turns every other thread into a referendum on DTW.

Please see:
LOT: DTW brought up
EK lack of expansion: DTW brought up
EK JFK-HAM: DTW brought up
Volaris: DTW brought up
BA: Guess what, DTW
VS: Again, DTW
KL: You guessed it, DTW
JL: HND-DTW would work, but doesn’t realized there are no slots.
China: Prints $, but no source. Chineses carriers “begging for DTW access, but no slots.”
Hong Kong: Yet again, DTW!
EI: They’re coming to DTW!
QR / EY: If not EK, they’re coming!
India: DTW-BOM on DL is happening!
LH: DTW-MUC is a “slam dunk”
CM: “Will happen”
TLV: “Before ORD”

I post DL adding out of ORD, guess who posts complaining about DLs hatred of DTW and collusion / conspiracy theories with Wayne County and Trump.

It’s a joke.
 
Akiestar
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:17 am

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Akiestar wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:

If I were this tentative "strategic investor", this would give me pause.


Given that the strategic investor is rumored to be NH, and given their relationship so far, I'm at a loss as to how you think this is reckless to the extent that NH might pull out entirely. (NH, yes, has acknowledged that they were in talks but nothing has been concluded yet, but still, the point stands).


If I were NH, I'd be concerned that my tentative investment is going towards building out another sixth-freedom hub that not only competes with my own Tokyo hubs but centers on an airport that in spite of improvements is still heavily operationally challenged to put it mildly. And it would be all for traffic flows that are 1. Not especially high revenue given the sheer distance involved and 2. Already subject to significant sixth freedom competition from Japanese/Korean carriers, the massive explansion of air service from China, and even the ME3.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of the financial/strategic potential of this move. It's not like there aren't already a dozen other sixth-freedom hubs for North America-SE/South Asia traffic and I fail to see what kind of killer edge PR has in this already crowded space.


You should tell NH that, as they just decided to invest in PR.

If NH had no faith in PR's strategy, this would all be for naught, but since we now know that it isn't, at least I'm excited to see where this will lead to and how this will affect PR's growth prospects. From what I see here, NH has confidence in what PR is doing.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:47 pm

Akiestar wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Akiestar wrote:

Given that the strategic investor is rumored to be NH, and given their relationship so far, I'm at a loss as to how you think this is reckless to the extent that NH might pull out entirely. (NH, yes, has acknowledged that they were in talks but nothing has been concluded yet, but still, the point stands).


If I were NH, I'd be concerned that my tentative investment is going towards building out another sixth-freedom hub that not only competes with my own Tokyo hubs but centers on an airport that in spite of improvements is still heavily operationally challenged to put it mildly. And it would be all for traffic flows that are 1. Not especially high revenue given the sheer distance involved and 2. Already subject to significant sixth freedom competition from Japanese/Korean carriers, the massive explansion of air service from China, and even the ME3.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of the financial/strategic potential of this move. It's not like there aren't already a dozen other sixth-freedom hubs for North America-SE/South Asia traffic and I fail to see what kind of killer edge PR has in this already crowded space.


You should tell NH that, as they just decided to invest in PR.

If NH had no faith in PR's strategy, this would all be for naught, but since we now know that it isn't, at least I'm excited to see where this will lead to and how this will affect PR's growth prospects. From what I see here, NH has confidence in what PR is doing.


I just read about that and it didm't mention anything about this sixth-freedom business. https://skift.com/2019/01/29/philippine ... ways-deal/

I should have clarified: If the interest is in growing the Japan-Philippines and XXX-Japan-Philippines markets, similary to NH's stake in VN, then I'm all for it because it makes sense and plays to both carriers' strengths. If it's about building another sixth-freedom hub for regional traffic like has been mentioned in the Nikkei article, then I think it's still a bad idea.
 
LurveBus
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:08 pm

ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Akiestar wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:

If I were NH, I'd be concerned that my tentative investment is going towards building out another sixth-freedom hub that not only competes with my own Tokyo hubs but centers on an airport that in spite of improvements is still heavily operationally challenged to put it mildly. And it would be all for traffic flows that are 1. Not especially high revenue given the sheer distance involved and 2. Already subject to significant sixth freedom competition from Japanese/Korean carriers, the massive explansion of air service from China, and even the ME3.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical of the financial/strategic potential of this move. It's not like there aren't already a dozen other sixth-freedom hubs for North America-SE/South Asia traffic and I fail to see what kind of killer edge PR has in this already crowded space.


You should tell NH that, as they just decided to invest in PR.

If NH had no faith in PR's strategy, this would all be for naught, but since we now know that it isn't, at least I'm excited to see where this will lead to and how this will affect PR's growth prospects. From what I see here, NH has confidence in what PR is doing.


I just read about that and it didm't mention anything about this sixth-freedom business. https://skift.com/2019/01/29/philippine ... ways-deal/

I should have clarified: If the interest is in growing the Japan-Philippines and XXX-Japan-Philippines markets, similary to NH's stake in VN, then I'm all for it because it makes sense and plays to both carriers' strengths. If it's about building another sixth-freedom hub for regional traffic like has been mentioned in the Nikkei article, then I think it's still a bad idea.


At the end of the day, all of PR’s routes operated or in the pipeline are there because of their O/D numbers. The network is growing and tinkering with the timings here and there and investing in transit facilities isn’t going to hurt them.

For reference, PAL currently operates 84 flights weekly on nine routes to Japan. NRT, HND, KIX, NGO, FUK, CTS are served from MNL and NRT, KIX, and NGO from CEB. Only CTS isn’t a daily flight. ANA operates 14 flights weekly only between Tokyo and Manila. Now, PAL incidentally also flies to POM, DPS, KUL, SIN, BKK, CGK, SGN, SYD, MEL, AKL, and soon HAN and PNH. Surely they can capture some of the traffic from these points going to and from secondary Japanese cities. And this is just the Asia network. The NA network is relatively large considering the Chinese carriers are sapping their yields there.

Nobody is saying that PR is all of a sudden going to start routes for sixth freedom’s sake like EK, but their existing network has sixth freedom potential.
 
ShinyAndChrome
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:27 pm

LurveBus wrote:
ShinyAndChrome wrote:
Akiestar wrote:

You should tell NH that, as they just decided to invest in PR.

If NH had no faith in PR's strategy, this would all be for naught, but since we now know that it isn't, at least I'm excited to see where this will lead to and how this will affect PR's growth prospects. From what I see here, NH has confidence in what PR is doing.


I just read about that and it didm't mention anything about this sixth-freedom business. https://skift.com/2019/01/29/philippine ... ways-deal/

I should have clarified: If the interest is in growing the Japan-Philippines and XXX-Japan-Philippines markets, similary to NH's stake in VN, then I'm all for it because it makes sense and plays to both carriers' strengths. If it's about building another sixth-freedom hub for regional traffic like has been mentioned in the Nikkei article, then I think it's still a bad idea.


At the end of the day, all of PR’s routes operated or in the pipeline are there because of their O/D numbers. The network is growing and tinkering with the timings here and there and investing in transit facilities isn’t going to hurt them.

For reference, PAL currently operates 84 flights weekly on nine routes to Japan. NRT, HND, KIX, NGO, FUK, CTS are served from MNL and NRT, KIX, and NGO from CEB. Only CTS isn’t a daily flight. ANA operates 14 flights weekly only between Tokyo and Manila. Now, PAL incidentally also flies to POM, DPS, KUL, SIN, BKK, CGK, SGN, SYD, MEL, AKL, and soon HAN and PNH. Surely they can capture some of the traffic from these points going to and from secondary Japanese cities. And this is just the Asia network. The NA network is relatively large considering the Chinese carriers are sapping their yields there.

Nobody is saying that PR is all of a sudden going to start routes for sixth freedom’s sake like EK, but their existing network has sixth freedom potential.


I agree and at the end of the day, I imagine we all agree more or less on this deal's upsides for both carriers. Everything else is just a question of emphasis.
 
memphiX
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:00 pm

I believe that Thai tried this before and failed.
VN has the same plan and is still working on their CAT 1 & 2nd SGN airport.

I think it will be good for passengers, they will have choices for that $400 round trip ticket.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:56 pm

Now also carried by Flightglobal.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gs-455352/


LurveBus wrote:
The NA network is relatively large considering the Chinese carriers are sapping their yields there.

One aspect I see that may be providential for this ANA/PAL partnership is DL's gradual disengagement from the Pacific Northwest - Japan market. The yields may not be up to DL's threshold and may still be below that of ANA's, but could well be profitable for PR. In this regard, might we see NH metal leased to PR for right-sized interim lift on these potential routes? :airplane:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
A2
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:12 pm

I just transferred from SFO to SIN this morning. We arrived in T1 and our onward connection left on T2. I find the whole inter-terminal transfer experience at NAIA unacceptable. To get to T2 we first had to check in to a Transfer Counter in T1 where we handed our boarding passes to the agents at the Transfer Counter. We were then instructed to wait in a small seating area while we waited for other transfer passengers to check in. After about 15-20 minutes wait an agent came out and started calling passenger names. We were then instructed to form a single line and followed her to a security check point. Our group of about 40 passengers took about 15-20 minutes to clear security check. Next we were led to Gate 11 where we waited another 20 minutes or so for the shuttle to show up. When the shuttle is ready to take us, an agent again call out passengers names and handed the boarding passes back to each passenger. The bus ride from T1 to T2 was very nice but when we arrived in T2 we had to go through another security screening. In total it took us about 1.5 hours from leaving our aircraft in T1 to get to the gate area of T2. Luckily we had a 3 hour layover.

I think this process is not sustainable. Before PR considers developing MNL into a bigger connecting hub, they need to work out the logistical constrains of NAIA. Either they need to have regular inter-terminal shuttles where passengers can board freely rather than being escorted or better yet, house all PR operations into a single terminal.

My flight experience on PR was pleasant but based on airport experience I highly doubt I will book another connecting flight on PR.
 
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idp5601
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:34 pm

A2 wrote:
I think this process is not sustainable. Before PR considers developing MNL into a bigger connecting hub, they need to work out the logistical constrains of NAIA. Either they need to have regular inter-terminal shuttles where passengers can board freely rather than being escorted or better yet, house all PR operations into a single terminal.


I don't think PR's terrible transit system at MNL is entirely their fault - I think the airport management has some hand in this as well.

Hopefully NAIA's impending privatisation this year will fix most of the immediately addressable problems like this one.
 
VolvoBus
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:22 pm

idp5601 wrote:
A2 wrote:
I think this process is not sustainable. Before PR considers developing MNL into a bigger connecting hub, they need to work out the logistical constrains of NAIA. Either they need to have regular inter-terminal shuttles where passengers can board freely rather than being escorted or better yet, house all PR operations into a single terminal.


I don't think PR's terrible transit system at MNL is entirely their fault - I think the airport management has some hand in this as well.

Hopefully NAIA's impending privatisation this year will fix most of the immediately addressable problems like this one.


I think PR would love to have all their operations in one terminal, but they have outgrown Terminal 2, and IIRC it was the US flights that were transferred to T1. Whether transferring passengers to the USA in what would seem to be non-sterile conditions factored into the US declaring NAIA as an unsafe airport (or however they described it) I have no idea.

I didn't think NAIA was being privatised, just that the developments would be paid for and operated by the private sector. This would still leave the management overall in the hands of the bozos in the Dept. of Transport and NAIA, who think it a good idea to have all international flights in T1 and T3,and have T2 exclusively domestic.

Equally, trying to make Manila an international hub seems to be putting the cart before the horse, as PAL ( I think, it may have been Xebu Pathetic ) are talking about transferring all turboprop operations to either Sangley or Clark.
 
J343
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:29 pm

I find this strategically possible BUT I personally think Philippine Airlines have left it too late.
 
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idp5601
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:11 am

VolvoBus wrote:
idp5601 wrote:
A2 wrote:
I think this process is not sustainable. Before PR considers developing MNL into a bigger connecting hub, they need to work out the logistical constrains of NAIA. Either they need to have regular inter-terminal shuttles where passengers can board freely rather than being escorted or better yet, house all PR operations into a single terminal.


I don't think PR's terrible transit system at MNL is entirely their fault - I think the airport management has some hand in this as well.

Hopefully NAIA's impending privatisation this year will fix most of the immediately addressable problems like this one.


I think PR would love to have all their operations in one terminal, but they have outgrown Terminal 2, and IIRC it was the US flights that were transferred to T1. Whether transferring passengers to the USA in what would seem to be non-sterile conditions factored into the US declaring NAIA as an unsafe airport (or however they described it) I have no idea.

I didn't think NAIA was being privatised, just that the developments would be paid for and operated by the private sector. This would still leave the management overall in the hands of the bozos in the Dept. of Transport and NAIA, who think it a good idea to have all international flights in T1 and T3,and have T2 exclusively domestic.

Equally, trying to make Manila an international hub seems to be putting the cart before the horse, as PAL ( I think, it may have been Xebu Pathetic ) are talking about transferring all turboprop operations to either Sangley or Clark.


As per this articlefrom last year, I think it implies that the intial proposal includes them gaining full control of NAIA (considering that they also mention increasing aircraft movements per hour, which they wouldn't if they were only going to operate just the new developments)

And even if it only ends up being a partial privatization, it doesn't mean the new operators won't have clout in terms of controlling and influencing what the airport authority does, CEB being an example of this.

Also, do take note that PR don't operate turboprops out of MNL anymore, and have already moved all of them to CRK.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Philippine Airlines plans to develop Manila into a gateway of Southeast Asia/South Asia toward North America

Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:17 pm

idp5601 wrote:
Also, do take note that PR don't operate turboprops out of MNL anymore, and have already moved all of them to CRK.

However, PR is intending to transfer their turboprop operations to SGL.....Sangley is back in the news again.....

https://www.bworldonline.com/airport-pr ... with-neda/

http://manilastandard.net/business/tran ... posal.html

https://business.inquirer.net/263151/st ... -submitted


An article in the Inquirer yesterday said review of the Sangley International Airport proposal is being expedited. Note that reclamation approval in the Bay has been transferred to the PRA.....

https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1081167/d ... eda-to-pra


The more, the merrier :!: :bigthumbsup: .....

https://business.inquirer.net/264578/ex ... a-alliance



Kung Hei Fat Choy :!: :!: :!: :D


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