a350lover
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Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:52 pm

Looking at schedules from many continental airports/hubs like CDG, AMS, BRU, FRA or MAD, I don't get to see any planes leaving early in the morning from any of these places to Dublin by Aer Lingus. Do EI crews overnight mainly in the UK, or do they follow some sort of always-turnarounds pattern? I assume they don't need to fly a large bank of arrivals into DUB early in the morning, since most of the connecting traffic continues to USA, which leaves early afternoon I guess.

Interestingly, the other day I was thinking both in MAD and BCN they do not operate in the terminal where Iberia/Vueling (and main OneWorld players) do.

I guess they don't make much money in short haul...?
 
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OA260
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Aer Lingus have the majority of their aircraft return to base at night ready for the early morning departures. The reason why EI are not in T4/S in MAD is that they are not Oneworld and even if they were they still may not move. Take LHR for example they will not be going to T5 as they have made an investment in a lounge in T2 which suits everyone better. Also T5 has capacity constraints. Of course things can change in future but not at the moment. As for making money they do very well on certain routes and less on others. It would be wrong to say they do not make much on shorthaul. Then of course you have to factor in the amount of money they make on TATL which very much relies on the shorthaul to feed those flights.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:17 pm

Having crews overnight costs money, so Aer Lingus (and many airlines) like to prevent this as much as possible. The low cost airlines started that, and many other airlines followed suit trying to minimise it.

As OA260 mentions above, Aer Lingus don't really have any relationship with Iberia. They do have an extensive codeshare relationship with British Airways, but even then Aer Lingus are in T2 rather than T5. If I recall correctly, one reason for that is that it's well located to quickly get flights in and out without much taxiing around Heathrow.

As far as I am aware, all elements of Aer Lingus are profitable. When considering it from a return on investment perspective, Aer Lingus is the most profitable carrier on that percentage than any other IAG airline.
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lhrsfosyd
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:24 pm

Aer Lingus became LCC on short-haul some years ago and therefore replicated a common practice of returning crews to base every night. Exception is LHR where they run a shuttle service and the timings work better with few nights tops I think it's two.
 
AstanaMagic
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:37 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
As OA260 mentions above, Aer Lingus don't really have any relationship with Iberia.


Having suffered IB ground handling in T4 the other day with RJ, maybe EI are in a better position not to have any relationship with IB
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KeevaOS
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:24 pm

I read Aer Lingus would be overnighiting a/c again in mainland Europe with the arrival of the a321LRs due to limit space for parking in Dublin airport and also to provide earlier connections in Dublin. I read this a good while ago though so I wouldnt be sure if this will really happen.
 
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Embajador3
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:38 pm

AstanaMagic wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
As OA260 mentions above, Aer Lingus don't really have any relationship with Iberia.


Having suffered IB ground handling in T4 the other day with RJ, maybe EI are in a better position not to have any relationship with IB


You should try any of the other ground handling companies (Menzies, Swissport, Lesma, Groundforce...) you will see how much better IB handling is.
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opticalilyushin
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:50 pm

They base one in Belfast with a mix of local crew or crew that sometimes have to get a taxi back to Dublin
 
ELBOB
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:04 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
or crew that sometimes have to get a taxi back to Dublin


Yikes, there goes €250 of margin...
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:07 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Having crews overnight costs money, so Aer Lingus (and many airlines) like to prevent this as much as possible. The low cost airlines started that, and many other airlines followed suit trying to minimise it.

What about the geographical location of Dublin? The only logical connection from mainland Europe via Dublin is to North America. There is no need for Aer Lingus to overnight its aircraft in continental Europe. They can just fly out of Dublin in the early morning and return home on time for passengers to make a connection to Canada or the U.S.A.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:09 pm

EI used to use at least some of their Eurofleet at night for charter work. Obviously not the high traffic routes like DUB-AGP which now sees the A333, but to destinations like Tunisia and Turkey. I've seen them turn up at 3am in Monastir.
 
crescent
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:11 pm

Its similar to the hub system used in Iceland by FI & WW- the westbound Atlantic flights leave at 1pm or after, so there is enough time in the morning to fly aircraft to Europe, fly connecting passengers back to DUB to make the Atlantic flights. Eastbound evening flights to continental Europe have no feed from North American flights (which arrive in the morning), so are not going to be very economic, and it is too early to take European passengers into Dublin with daybreak flights back to DUB.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:14 pm

EI seems to operate in a fairly similar manner to FI intra-Europe - aircraft leave early morning from DUB/KEF to catch TATL inbounds and then head straight back for the TATL departures, and then some more O&D focused afternoon flights. They also have a funnily similar terminal usage (T2 at LHR, T2 at FRA, T2 at BCN, MAD etc) although I'd argue that's more of a co-incidence in most cases. They're both hybrid carriers (between LCC and full service) so that probably plays a role as well.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:16 pm

crescent wrote:
Its similar to the hub system used in Iceland by FI & WW- the westbound Atlantic flights leave at 1pm or after, so there is enough time in the morning to fly aircraft to Europe, fly connecting passengers back to DUB to make the Atlantic flights. Eastbound evening flights to continental Europe have no feed from North American flights (which arrive in the morning), so are not going to be very economic, and it is too early to take European passengers into Dublin with daybreak flights back to DUB.


You beat me to it! ;)
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
IADCA
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:20 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
crescent wrote:
Its similar to the hub system used in Iceland by FI & WW- the westbound Atlantic flights leave at 1pm or after, so there is enough time in the morning to fly aircraft to Europe, fly connecting passengers back to DUB to make the Atlantic flights. Eastbound evening flights to continental Europe have no feed from North American flights (which arrive in the morning), so are not going to be very economic, and it is too early to take European passengers into Dublin with daybreak flights back to DUB.


You beat me to it! ;)


Except that FI (at least in high season) has the extra efficiency of having most of the fleet also heading back from North America during the EU night rather than sitting on the ground at KEF. I'm always amazed at what a ghost town KEF is outside of one of the departure banks. It's much more efficient having those same 757s operating both sides of the network than having the A330/A32x hinge at DUB with slack in the fleet at that point.
 
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OA260
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:22 pm

Channex757 wrote:
EI used to use at least some of their Eurofleet at night for charter work. Obviously not the high traffic routes like DUB-AGP which now sees the A333, but to destinations like Tunisia and Turkey. I've seen them turn up at 3am in Monastir.


Yes although not for a long time. They also used to do night time charters in conjunction with USIT down to HER and ATH. They still do some odd charters though I saw one to SZG recently.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:48 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
Having crews overnight costs money, so Aer Lingus (and many airlines) like to prevent this as much as possible.

After reading the replies above can we come to the conclusion it has nothing to do with hotel cost savings, but everything with the nature of Aer Lingus' operation?

I am sure an airline like KLM would like to save on hotels also, but they keep dozens of aircraft overnight each day.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:10 pm

IADCA wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
crescent wrote:
Its similar to the hub system used in Iceland by FI & WW- the westbound Atlantic flights leave at 1pm or after, so there is enough time in the morning to fly aircraft to Europe, fly connecting passengers back to DUB to make the Atlantic flights. Eastbound evening flights to continental Europe have no feed from North American flights (which arrive in the morning), so are not going to be very economic, and it is too early to take European passengers into Dublin with daybreak flights back to DUB.


You beat me to it! ;)


Except that FI (at least in high season) has the extra efficiency of having most of the fleet also heading back from North America during the EU night rather than sitting on the ground at KEF. I'm always amazed at what a ghost town KEF is outside of one of the departure banks. It's much more efficient having those same 757s operating both sides of the network than having the A330/A32x hinge at DUB with slack in the fleet at that point.


That's true, it's the beauty of the KEF location.

Off-peak times are getting just a bit more busier in recent years, especially in summer. That will become even more true with the new FI bank that's on the way.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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lugie
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:12 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
Having crews overnight costs money, so Aer Lingus (and many airlines) like to prevent this as much as possible.

After reading the replies above can we come to the conclusion it has nothing to do with hotel cost savings, but everything with the nature of Aer Lingus' operation?

I am sure an airline like KLM would like to save on hotels also, but they keep dozens of aircraft overnight each day.



I'm really not sure about operational specifics but I'd guess it has to do with allowing for connections. As opposed to EI, KLM for example offers flights to Central Africa which usually depart in the morning - earlier than DUB's TATL banks - to arrive there some time in the afternoon (since the distance is too short for an overnight flight like for flights to Southern Africa, but no significant time difference).

If you want to effectively feed connections for a bank of departures like that you might need to make use of planes doing RON at the outstations.

Depending on which parts of the network, flying an early morning departure AMS-XXX-AMS with a return before that mid morning departure bank might not be feasible.
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AmricanShamrok
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:07 pm

ELBOB wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
or crew that sometimes have to get a taxi back to Dublin


Yikes, there goes €250 of margin...

Similarly, EI does not have a flight deck crew base at SNN so the majority of pilots are DUB-based and would overnight in Limerick to fly the early LHR flight the following day. Not sure if they overnight for the SNN-JFK/BOS flights but the ground transit/commute costs between DUB and SNN must not be that big an issue as they've been doing it that way for years.
 
IADCA
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:18 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
IADCA wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:

You beat me to it! ;)


Except that FI (at least in high season) has the extra efficiency of having most of the fleet also heading back from North America during the EU night rather than sitting on the ground at KEF. I'm always amazed at what a ghost town KEF is outside of one of the departure banks. It's much more efficient having those same 757s operating both sides of the network than having the A330/A32x hinge at DUB with slack in the fleet at that point.


That's true, it's the beauty of the KEF location.

Off-peak times are getting just a bit more busier in recent years, especially in summer. That will become even more true with the new FI bank that's on the way.


Yes, and it'll be interesting to see how the MAX fleet fits into that. I see they've been operating NA turns already and I saw one at ARN a couple weeks back. Theoretically, that gives them a way to launch the second bank as a mini-bank with the smaller A/C rather than mixing and matching. Interesting that the 9 is starting with IAD given that that route has been double daily in the summer and sometimes even a 753 in winter. Maybe they'll be getting a lot more like EI after all, where they have 757s operating NA routes and 330s heading down to Spain!
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:39 pm

IADCA wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:
IADCA wrote:

Except that FI (at least in high season) has the extra efficiency of having most of the fleet also heading back from North America during the EU night rather than sitting on the ground at KEF. I'm always amazed at what a ghost town KEF is outside of one of the departure banks. It's much more efficient having those same 757s operating both sides of the network than having the A330/A32x hinge at DUB with slack in the fleet at that point.


That's true, it's the beauty of the KEF location.

Off-peak times are getting just a bit more busier in recent years, especially in summer. That will become even more true with the new FI bank that's on the way.


Yes, and it'll be interesting to see how the MAX fleet fits into that. I see they've been operating NA turns already and I saw one at ARN a couple weeks back. Theoretically, that gives them a way to launch the second bank as a mini-bank with the smaller A/C rather than mixing and matching. Interesting that the 9 is starting with IAD given that that route has been double daily in the summer and sometimes even a 753 in winter. Maybe they'll be getting a lot more like EI after all, where they have 757s operating NA routes and 330s heading down to Spain!


Isn’t IAD a double daily next summer where the 7M9 fits into the new bank (later arrival and departure) while the old FI645/644 is still a mix of 757/767?

But yes, the MAX certainly means exciting times are ahead for FI. The MAX will operate NA routes as far as 7 hrs (MCI will switch over to the MAX sith increased frequencies) and will be all around the East coast next summer. Many of the second bank flights will indeed be on the MAX, for example I’m booked on the 7M9 to FRA in May on-board the new FI522/523 rotation that leaves KEF around noon. I love the departure times of the new bank in terms of O&D, much nicer than always waking up in Reykjavik at 4-5am for an early morning departure. I miss the old morning departures to N-America though! Used that to BOS and JFK many times.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
SNN99
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:28 am

AmricanShamrok wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
or crew that sometimes have to get a taxi back to Dublin


Yikes, there goes €250 of margin...

Similarly, EI does not have a flight deck crew base at SNN so the majority of pilots are DUB-based and would overnight in Limerick to fly the early LHR flight the following day. Not sure if they overnight for the SNN-JFK/BOS flights but the ground transit/commute costs between DUB and SNN must not be that big an issue as they've been doing it that way for years.

The 757 pilots are ASL and SNN based. CC are EI and also SNN based
 
IADCA
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:07 am

SRQKEF wrote:
IADCA wrote:
SRQKEF wrote:

That's true, it's the beauty of the KEF location.

Off-peak times are getting just a bit more busier in recent years, especially in summer. That will become even more true with the new FI bank that's on the way.


Yes, and it'll be interesting to see how the MAX fleet fits into that. I see they've been operating NA turns already and I saw one at ARN a couple weeks back. Theoretically, that gives them a way to launch the second bank as a mini-bank with the smaller A/C rather than mixing and matching. Interesting that the 9 is starting with IAD given that that route has been double daily in the summer and sometimes even a 753 in winter. Maybe they'll be getting a lot more like EI after all, where they have 757s operating NA routes and 330s heading down to Spain!


Isn’t IAD a double daily next summer where the 7M9 fits into the new bank (later arrival and departure) while the old FI645/644 is still a mix of 757/767?

But yes, the MAX certainly means exciting times are ahead for FI. The MAX will operate NA routes as far as 7 hrs (MCI will switch over to the MAX sith increased frequencies) and will be all around the East coast next summer. Many of the second bank flights will indeed be on the MAX, for example I’m booked on the 7M9 to FRA in May on-board the new FI522/523 rotation that leaves KEF around noon. I love the departure times of the new bank in terms of O&D, much nicer than always waking up in Reykjavik at 4-5am for an early morning departure. I miss the old morning departures to N-America though! Used that to BOS and JFK many times.


I think IAD was double this past summer, but the flights were around 15-20 minutes apart and both normally 752. I'd be very happy to get a later flight. I've only taken 644/645. I'd probably use the later one when going to KEF and the existing turn when connecting. The BSI bus terminal is pretty grim at 7-8 AM when you've just had a pretty short night.
 
LH658
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Re: Do EI planes overnight anywhere in continental Europe?

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:25 am

I thought they over night in some places in Europe cause some flights from Europe to North America also leaves in the morning make it down to the southern states past noon, though i don't think EI has any southern destinations other than MIA or LAX if i recall correctly.

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