caliboy93
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Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:24 pm

What are your thoughts on Greece having a long-haul low cost airline similar to WOW or Norwegian?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:30 pm

What’s the airline going to do in the off season? Greek market is very seasonal.

Also Wow and Norwegian have quite different business models.
Wow primarily a 6th freedom carrier while Norwegian more point-to-point with significant intra Europe flying.
mercure f-wtcc
 
ac33e
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:43 pm

Yields on most destinations will be tanked by EK... Where would it even fly? JFK/ORD/YYZ/YUL in summer? And BKK, HKT, and other pebble markets like that in winter?
 
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enilria
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:36 pm

Greece-USA is a tough market as it is long and low yield, not because of EK, but because it’s mostly leisure.

The problem with the world is that there aren’t enough strong Winter seasonal markets to balance the strong Summer markets.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:05 am

Remember Hellenic Imperial Airways? Oh, remember Olympic Airways? There is your answer. Concur with all comments above.
 
winginit
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:13 am

caliboy93 wrote:
What are your thoughts on Greece having a long-haul low cost airline similar to WOW or Norwegian?


Can you make a business case for why such a thing would exist?
 
gunnerman
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:53 am

Does ATH need another airline? Europe is well catered for by a bunch of carriers including Aegean, Olympic, Wizz, Ryanair, easyJet and EU3, and you've got ME3, US3 and CA from further afield. And I've just remembered that EK carries 5th freedom traffic every day on DXB-ATH-EWR with the 77W.
 
dirk88
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:12 am

South East Asia budget traffic is covered well by Scoot to Singapore, in addition to the ME3. Scoot offers connections to tons of destinations in Asia. They only do a couple of flights a week. I flew them once SIN-ATH, and most passengers were European backbackers on their way home, selfconnecting in ATH onto Ryanair and others. Not many Asian tourists, nor many Greeks. This was at rock bottom prices (180$ one-way).
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:39 am

probably be best to model something that doesn't loose massive sums of money as WOW and Norwegian have done?

just a suggestion....
 
Someone83
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:45 am

mercure1 wrote:
What’s the airline going to do in the off season?



Go bankrupt......
 
Noshow
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:50 am

There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:36 am

Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?

Can't tell if you're joking or not.

But if serious... then do know that number of long-distance expats almost never equates to profit-potential revenue.

That sort of international traffic only works on (1) short distance, e.g. Florida to Caribbean, or (2) restricted access markets where airlines can charge whatever they want due to limited supply, e.g. Europe to south central African regions.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Andy33
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:42 am

Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?


Olympic Airways tried that. Massive losses that not even a state-owned carrier could support. And of course there's all those one-stop connections via the ME3 hubs or via SIN that take passengers to the Australian city they want, rather than just the one the Greek airline chooses to fly to (or the aircraft they use has the range to reach).
 
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OA260
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:44 am

Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?


The market is already well covered by the ME3.
When Olympic flew to MEL/SYD it lost millions and millions funded by the state. No need for any more experiments.

Any LCC longhaul would be May-Sept only.
 
debonair
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:52 am

caliboy93 wrote:
What are your thoughts on Greece having a long-haul low cost airline similar to WOW or Norwegian?


There will be a new airline soon, "ATHENS SPIRIT AIRLINES", operating with Airbus A340 from their homebase Athens... However, it is not clear yet, if this airline will operate as a true LCC or full service airline:

http://www.dealnews.gr/roi/item/246959- ... FAg2tQrIsa
 
a350lover
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:02 am

Indeed Melbourne-Athens was reported as an "unserved route of the week" by anna.aero, and Jetstar thought about ATH as their first stop in Europe.

These traffic is mainly flying through the ME carriers, but the purely low-cost through Scoot via Singapore too.

https://www.anna.aero/2016/07/27/athens ... -the-week/
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:44 am

WOW air failed so badly at going long-haul they've noa returned all their A330s and subsequently closed all routes outside A32S range. Their CEO has admitted that taking widebodies was the single worst decision they ever made and that they lost sight of their true values. So modelling a long-haul airline after WOW would be a horribly stupid idea, I think Aegean serves the Greek market perfectly as is. They may not be a LCC in terms of service but their fares are usually very reasonable and they connect Greece very well to most major European markets. Asia/Australia can be covered via IST/ME3 and N-America can be covered via European hubs, the yields at ATH don't support direct long-haul service aside from a few exceptions.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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OA260
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:30 pm

OlympicATH wrote:
If anyone launches long-haul flights out of ATH at some point this will likely be Aegean, but they need to have many things aligned before they venture into this .


A3 have zero interest in anything more than around 5 hours from Greece thank god . Long may the sensible heads be in charge at Aegean. Going longhaul would trigger a profit warning within the first 3 months! Then collapse the company.
 
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OA260
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:36 pm

debonair wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
What are your thoughts on Greece having a long-haul low cost airline similar to WOW or Norwegian?


There will be a new airline soon, "ATHENS SPIRIT AIRLINES", operating with Airbus A340 from their homebase Athens... However, it is not clear yet, if this airline will operate as a true LCC or full service airline:

http://www.dealnews.gr/roi/item/246959- ... FAg2tQrIsa



Dont book unless your credit card protects you when they leave you stranded .

The last attempts in Greece and Cyprus involving Priests and Russian dirty money did not end well.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:55 pm

Greece is a very seasonal market, with demand peaking July-September and during the late spring to mid september time frame, demand is strong. After that, it falls off a cliff. This is why the US3 operate seasonally only into ATH. For the markets closer to home, there are plenty of LCCs, ULCCs, and legacies that service Greece and the islands well from nearby Europe and the market simply would not support anything more.
 
PacificWest
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:09 pm

I would like to at least see a seasonal nonstop to Athens from the US West Coast, as I make the journey every 2-3 years... I don't care if it's Norwegian or Emirates or whatever.

The reason is because I try to avoid the East Coast or Midwest at all costs for connecting flight, because of probability of delays/cancellations due to weather and congestion.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:23 pm

PacificWest wrote:
I would like to at least see a seasonal nonstop to Athens from the US West Coast, as I make the journey every 2-3 years... I don't care if it's Norwegian or Emirates or whatever.

The reason is because I try to avoid the East Coast or Midwest at all costs for connecting flight, because of probability of delays/cancellations due to weather and congestion.

You are welcome to connect at IST, AMS, CDG, LHR, FRA, MUC, WAW or even SVO...
 
bennett123
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:11 pm

According to the item on dealnews, the airline will operate 4 A319 and 2 A340 from next April providing domestic and international flights There is no indication of the source of these aircraft or the variant involved.

Apparently Athens Spirit Airlines was founded in 2017, but I cannot find anything before 2019.

Is the initial share capital to be only 24,000 Euros. Apparently the rest of the working capital will comes from loans.

The relevance of previous Greek carriers is unclear, particularly as apparently 9 out of 20 failed.

The company's management includes Basil. Doriza, who was an long term employee of Olympic followed by Skygreece (where he was Flight Manager) which failed after three years includes two of his children, Artemis Doriza, a lawyer and Dimitris Dorizas, a shipbuilder, an aircraft engineer and lawyer Ang. Karahalios. I think that is two lawyers and someone who build ships and repairs aircraft??.

The company intends to enter into a wide range of activities. Beginning with passenger, freight and cargo cargo airplanes, with regular and occasional / charter flights, both on airplanes and helicopters, as well as on seaplanes within and outside Greek territory. In addition, it is envisaged to provide air services and training services, but also to import, trade, acquire and exploit new and used aircraft and helicopters and their spare parts.

The company's plan includes the services of technical assistance and handling, the establishment and operation of travel and tourist offices, the trade of all types of aircraft fuel, the supply of food and drinks, the rental of cars, and the operation of fast food.

One thing that is not stated is what routes they will fly.

Who is YPA, who will give the licences?.

Certainly no lack of ambition.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:02 pm

OA260 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?


The market is already well covered by the ME3.


Or by Scoot with a connection in Singapore. It doesn't make much sense to fly non-stop when there are far cheaper one-stop options available.

I doubt they could fill an A380 with it, even once weekly. The Greek emigrants living in Australia have been living there for a very long time and therefor have lost touch with Greece. Besides, they live scattered throughout all of Australia which is a pretty big country. For most of them it would be one-stop anyway as they don't live near the airport from where the route is flown, whatever airport that may be. And if it's one-stop anyway, what does it matter where that stop is?

Then I'd say Scoot has the best papers. They serve a lot of destinations in Australia. The Greeks living in Australia can go to whatever airport served by Scoot is closest to them, fly to Singapore and connect there for the flight to Athens.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:19 pm

Seasonality is a problem on one hand but tourism has been growing steadily during off-peak season too in athens area and surroundings..Scoot and EK to EWR are the only year round services..But so many pax are "lost" on connections with LH,LX,KLM,AF,BA,TK,IB,EK,QR etc..Why do we consider it as a foregone conclusion that a NO/EW/Level-type LCC wouldnt be able to sustain routes to JFK,BOS,ORD,LAX,YYZ,YUL,BKK in winter, serving more than just thegreek immigrant communities? Isnt part of the targets of the LCC model not only to meet demand but to stimulate as well?..P.S. Obviously it would have to codeshare with other LCCs and airlines for feeder traffic, like all the rest do
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:01 am

Only a seasonal May to September service would work. Someone like Norwegian could try it 4 times weekly in the summer season...or maybe Icelandair on the MAX 8/9. Icelandair seems better suited as they can reach ATH with a narrow body.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:22 am

I think SkyGreece tried it before, but it didn't last long. The airline was plagued with management, operational and staff problem with only one aircraft. Greece can only afford a small lean airline like what Ellinair is currently doing. Anything bigger will be suicidal. The ship has sailed, foreign airlines have picked up all the capacity left by Olympics Airways (the original one).
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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OA260
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:09 am

juliuswong wrote:
Greece can only afford a small lean airline like what Ellinair is currently doing. Anything bigger will be suicidal.


Ellinair is the wrong comparison as they are a very small airline. They have some key routes and a limited market. You really need to look at Aegean which is a real guide to what model best fits a Greek based carrier. Look at their business model , fleet and routes which are growing year to year. They are a strong and professional Regional carrier.
 
Blerg
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:07 pm

juliuswong wrote:
I think SkyGreece tried it before, but it didn't last long. The airline was plagued with management, operational and staff problem with only one aircraft. Greece can only afford a small lean airline like what Ellinair is currently doing. Anything bigger will be suicidal. The ship has sailed, foreign airlines have picked up all the capacity left by Olympics Airways (the original one).


Ellinair is backed by Mouzenidis, that's what's keeping them alive. Without them they would have joined a long list of failed Greek airlines a long time ago.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:21 pm

If not for other reasons, e.g., EK, if there were yields there, TK at IST would be in the fray instantly.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:24 pm

You remember the days of TW FF DL and OA flying JFK-ATH?

None of my greek friends ever took DL...too ritzy for them.

Now DL is the only one left.

There is a huge Greek market in Queens and on Long Island, more than enough for a crappy LCC carrier with olympic rings on its side to prevail for Jun Jul and Aug

Would need to be a 3 or 4 month wet lease though. Cant be anything more than that

The people on a.net dont understand a lot about NY. The Greek community and its entrenched ties to Greece is a shining example

The why doesnt KE fly to EWR? is also a great example
 
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Eindhoven
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:35 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Now DL is the only one left.


DL is the only non-stop left, but plenty of one-stop options. DY can fly JFK-ARN-ATH and return ATH-OSL-JFK for € 610 return in June. DL charges € 1208 return in basic economy on the same dates for the direct flight.

With so many one-stop options ATH does not need direct long haul LCC flights.
 
melpax
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Or by Scoot with a connection in Singapore. It doesn't make much sense to fly non-stop when there are far cheaper one-stop options available.

I doubt they could fill an A380 with it, even once weekly. The Greek emigrants living in Australia have been living there for a very long time and therefor have lost touch with Greece. Besides, they live scattered throughout all of Australia which is a pretty big country. For most of them it would be one-stop anyway as they don't live near the airport from where the route is flown, whatever airport that may be. And if it's one-stop anyway, what does it matter where that stop is?

Then I'd say Scoot has the best papers. They serve a lot of destinations in Australia. The Greeks living in Australia can go to whatever airport served by Scoot is closest to them, fly to Singapore and connect there for the flight to Athens.


A lot of 2nd & 3rd Generation Greek-Australians still make regular trips back to Greece to see family, the ones I know usually fly one of the ME3, or Scoot if they're on a budget. EK seems to be a particular favorite from MEL. It's not unusual for those who have retired to maintain a 2nd home in the Ancestral village, etc, and spend the northern summer there. The same generally applies for the Lebanese & some Italians.

Any new entrant will have to be very competitive on pricing, especially if the onboard facilities & service are below those offered by the ME3. Remember that the Greeks love a bargain.....
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:02 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
You remember the days of TW FF DL and OA flying JFK-ATH?

None of my greek friends ever took DL...too ritzy for them.

Now DL is the only one left.

There is a huge Greek market in Queens and on Long Island, more than enough for a crappy LCC carrier with olympic rings on its side to prevail for Jun Jul and Aug

Would need to be a 3 or 4 month wet lease though. Cant be anything more than that

The people on a.net dont understand a lot about NY. The Greek community and its entrenched ties to Greece is a shining example

The why doesnt KE fly to EWR? is also a great example


DL is not the only airline left flying NY Area to Athens, although it is the only nonstop option from JFK (and up to two daily in the height of peak season) but the route itself is seasonal only. UA fly EWR-ATH from late May to late September, and EK flies EWR-ATH year round. That's about all the market can and will support. Flew UA's route last summer at it was packed to the gills, but when I flew it again right after Labor Day, there were around 40-45 open seats on the 767-400ER. Obviously not a specific sign of anything but this is a VFR market + tourism. There is little to no real business link strong enough to support year-round service.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:10 pm

A seasonal LH airline is an interesting concept. I don't think there are 2 cities strong enough to spread utilization year round but for example a summer Hub in Athens with 50 daily flights that drops to 5 in winter and the operation essentially moves South. To South East Asia maybe with 50 daily flights. Such an operation would be fraught with challenges.

Something like that may exist with extremely small aircraft flying beach and ski destinations on a much smaller scale?
 
Blerg
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:50 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You remember the days of TW FF DL and OA flying JFK-ATH?

None of my greek friends ever took DL...too ritzy for them.

Now DL is the only one left.

There is a huge Greek market in Queens and on Long Island, more than enough for a crappy LCC carrier with olympic rings on its side to prevail for Jun Jul and Aug

Would need to be a 3 or 4 month wet lease though. Cant be anything more than that

The people on a.net dont understand a lot about NY. The Greek community and its entrenched ties to Greece is a shining example

The why doesnt KE fly to EWR? is also a great example


DL is not the only airline left flying NY Area to Athens, although it is the only nonstop option from JFK (and up to two daily in the height of peak season) but the route itself is seasonal only. UA fly EWR-ATH from late May to late September, and EK flies EWR-ATH year round. That's about all the market can and will support. Flew UA's route last summer at it was packed to the gills, but when I flew it again right after Labor Day, there were around 40-45 open seats on the 767-400ER. Obviously not a specific sign of anything but this is a VFR market + tourism. There is little to no real business link strong enough to support year-round service.


On top of that there is also the seasonal AA from PHL. I know it's not New York but it's not far away and catchment areas overlap.
 
AIRTRANSAT767
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:09 pm

Hello gang

does it take a company like Olympic but charter that also do LCC with good management not like other companies in the past?
To do well it takes a fleet of 60 long-haul and medium-haul aircraft etc ................
i love air transat and fan all boeing
 
gunnerman
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:34 pm

AA will also have a daily ORD-ATH from 3 May 2019 to 28 September 2019 operated with the 788. That's six daily flights from the US to ATH next summer (JFKx2, EWRx2, PHLx1, ORDx1) plus a bunch of connections via airports such as LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, IST and SVO.
 
Blerg
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:43 pm

gunnerman wrote:
AA will also have a daily ORD-ATH from 3 May 2019 to 28 September 2019 operated with the 788. That's six daily flights from the US to ATH next summer (JFKx2, EWRx2, PHLx1, ORDx1) plus a bunch of connections via airports such as LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, IST and SVO.


We can also add connections via Canada.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:31 pm

Blerg wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You remember the days of TW FF DL and OA flying JFK-ATH?

None of my greek friends ever took DL...too ritzy for them.

Now DL is the only one left.

There is a huge Greek market in Queens and on Long Island, more than enough for a crappy LCC carrier with olympic rings on its side to prevail for Jun Jul and Aug

Would need to be a 3 or 4 month wet lease though. Cant be anything more than that

The people on a.net dont understand a lot about NY. The Greek community and its entrenched ties to Greece is a shining example

The why doesnt KE fly to EWR? is also a great example


DL is not the only airline left flying NY Area to Athens, although it is the only nonstop option from JFK (and up to two daily in the height of peak season) but the route itself is seasonal only. UA fly EWR-ATH from late May to late September, and EK flies EWR-ATH year round. That's about all the market can and will support. Flew UA's route last summer at it was packed to the gills, but when I flew it again right after Labor Day, there were around 40-45 open seats on the 767-400ER. Obviously not a specific sign of anything but this is a VFR market + tourism. There is little to no real business link strong enough to support year-round service.


On top of that there is also the seasonal AA from PHL. I know it's not New York but it's not far away and catchment areas overlap.


Yup, AA operates a seasonal, daily A330 service from PHL to ATH, a legacy of the USAirways route network. Catchment areas sort of but don't really overlap. Unless you live in NJ, you're not really flying out of PHL to Europe as a first choice, unless you are tied to AA. There are flights from the NY area to PHL for connecting purposes, but it's not an overlapping market. Also, as a side note, AA is launching seasonal service this year from ORD to ATH on the 787.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:58 pm

bennett123”]Apparently Athens Spirit Airlines was founded in 2017, but I cannot find anything before 2019. [/quote]

Neither have I. In fact, just learned about them this week. But you need to consider that the management team mostly came from SkyGreece and Hellenic Imperial. People got burned by these guys before; why would anyone buy tickets from them.

[quote="aemoreira1981 wrote:
Only a seasonal May to September service would work. Someone like Norwegian could try it 4 times weekly in the summer season...or maybe Icelandair on the MAX 8/9. Icelandair seems better suited as they can reach ATH with a narrow body.


No---and Yes. The number of people that go in the off-season for reasons, other than beaches and VFR, has increased somewhat. But not enough of the "cuisine and museum crowd" to warrant extending the season beyond those months.

However, Easter is one of the biggest holidays in Greece. And people do travel then. Keep in mind that it is also celebrated at least a week LATER than most other places in the world. It would make sense to start the "Summer" service a week or two early, to capitalize on this crowd. Easter in Greece this year is on 28 April, which is close enough to May, so that would probably work.

As for Icelandair, Maybe. FI goes to just about everywhere in Europe, and Greece is one of the few countries it doesn't go to. And certainly take care of some of the off-season crowd.

PacificWest wrote:
I would like to at least see a seasonal nonstop to Athens from the US West Coast, as I make the journey every 2-3 years... I don't care if it's Norwegian or Emirates or whatever.
The reason is because I try to avoid the East Coast or Midwest at all costs for connecting flight, because of probability of delays/cancellations due to weather and congestion.


The West Coast is even more problematic, for Greece. It would be difficult to market the flight. Although Los Angeles has the largest Greek population of the West Coast cities, it is a bit dysfunctional. Does not have the local ethnic media infrastructure, nor a central ethnic community...….this is in contrast to the Midwest and East Coast cities.

Also, service to Chicago to Athens----which was the biggest "no-brainer" for many years----is finally getting on the schedule this year. Took years to convince some carrier to step forward and do it. Not going to happen with LAX. If any city gets new service to Greece, it will be BOS/IAD/DTW...….but even that is a stretch.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:01 pm

Blerg wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
AA will also have a daily ORD-ATH from 3 May 2019 to 28 September 2019 operated with the 788. That's six daily flights from the US to ATH next summer (JFKx2, EWRx2, PHLx1, ORDx1) plus a bunch of connections via airports such as LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, IST and SVO.


We can also add connections via Canada.

In fact, going via YYZ on AC is the overwhelming connection favorite for those originating in SEA.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:55 pm

Is it because AC's fares are lower than the competition's? The journey time next summer (16h 20m) is the same as DL via JFK but much slower than AF via CDG (14h 25m).
 
Blerg
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Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:07 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Is it because AC's fares are lower than the competition's? The journey time next summer (16h 20m) is the same as DL via JFK but much slower than AF via CDG (14h 25m).


Maybe they are cheaper because the flight to Athens is operated by Rouge's B767?
 
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jfklganyc
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Orthodox Easter is celebrated AFTER Passover always. Could be early, could be late...depends on year

Whatever service is added, we are talking JFK ORD BOS YYZ at most
 
Freshside3
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:44 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Orthodox Easter is celebrated AFTER Passover always. Could be early, could be late...depends on year

Whatever service is added, we are talking JFK ORD BOS YYZ at most

In 2017, it was one of the unusual times where both Easters were on the same day.
2018- 4/1 and 4/8(one week apart)
2019- 4/21 and 4/28(one week apart)
2020- 4/12 and 4/19(one week apart)
2021- 4/4 and 5/2(four weeks apart)
2022- 4/17 and 4/24(one week apart)
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Orthodox Easter is celebrated AFTER Passover always. Could be early, could be late...depends on year

Whatever service is added, we are talking JFK ORD BOS YYZ at most


+YUL and maybe IAD. It is a relatively short flight and IAD is a star hub on top of having its own demand to/from Greece. Don’t remember the exact number of indirect passengers between DC and ATH but it’s decent. With ORD now on AA I could see UA adding IAD-ATH in a few years.
Another one is ATL. Delta flew the route about 10+ years ago and it has since been replaced by a second JFK flight. I could see it return.
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:58 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:10 am

If Greece had, in a different continent, a large ex-colony that had Greek as its main language, something like Portugal and Brazil, surely Olympic Airways today would be as successful as TAP Air Portugal.
 
MalevTU134
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:14 am

AwysBSB wrote:
If Greece had, in a different continent, a large ex-colony that had Greek as its main language, something like Portugal and Brazil, surely Olympic Airways today would be as successful as TAP Air Portugal.

I doubt it. KLM isn't successful because of the former colonies of The Netherlands and Sabena was always a financial disaster in spite of the ex-Belgian colonies. Just to take 2 airlines from ex-colonial countries the size of Greece in terms of population as examples.
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:04 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
AwysBSB wrote:
If Greece had, in a different continent, a large ex-colony that had Greek as its main language, something like Portugal and Brazil, surely Olympic Airways today would be as successful as TAP Air Portugal.

I doubt it. KLM isn't successful because of the former colonies of The Netherlands and Sabena was always a financial disaster in spite of the ex-Belgian colonies. Just to take 2 airlines from ex-colonial countries the size of Greece in terms of population as examples.


Very different examples. TAP has several advantages that neither KLM nor Sabena had:
-Unique very close cultural ties with one single huge market of 200 million with a fast growing economy and propensity to fly
-A unique geographic location: Lisbon is Europe's closest gateway to Latin America and therefore is uniquely located to serve as a hub to Brazil (besides the cultural ties). This can only be compared to BA's position in the North American market (or Finnair to Northeast Asia albeit without the cultural ties). Flying to Brazil from any other port in Europe (perhaps with the exception of MAD) means longer flying times, which increases fuel burn and makes 24 hour turnarounds impossible (affecting utilisation etc)

TAP serves 10 destinations non stop from Portugal, most of them daily with well timed connections. And it is the only link to Europe for most of these cities. Not to mention the potential is huge, especially with new gen aircraft and the planned expansion at LIS.

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