Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
marcoantona
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:17 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:49 pm

Seems like Norwegian Route Planner reads this forum... haha!
They announced today seasonal, 4-weekly JFK-ATH from 1Jul to 26Oct.
https://media.us.norwegian.com/pressrel ... na-2836642
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:09 pm

I have my doubts that they will make much of a profit on this venture unless they get 95% loads and fill the PE cabin. Fares for July are around EUR705 incl bags etc..
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:11 pm

Norwegian is getting desperate if they are going after this already well-served market. Good luck to them though.
 
marcogr12
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:36 pm

Well-served but terribly expensive with Delta hitting 1200euros in high season on economy class ATH-JFK..A far cry from what the average passenger can dole out,esp. on the greek side..So Norwegians fares will be a welcome change
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:47 pm

EK is between EUR850 and EUR990 depending on where you buy the ticket. DL is the highest example.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:37 pm

As I wrote in another thread demand for Mediterranean sea cruises from the US is massive, in fact well over 50% of passengers on Piraeus (the port of Athens) originating cruises are Americans. I suppose something similar happens in Barcelona.
So I think both of these two routes will do well for D7 during the part of the year those flights will be operating.
For people booking ATH tickets from May and onwards prices of 800-900$ are a fantasy, even on EK. Plus getting to fly from JFK is highly preferable for the US-Greece market.
Also D7 has the ATH route operating 6 weekly from the beginning of July to August 9th.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:05 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
As I wrote in another thread demand for Mediterranean sea cruises from the US is massive, in fact well over 50% of passengers on Piraeus (the port of Athens) originating cruises are Americans. I suppose something similar happens in Barcelona.
So I think both of these two routes will do well for D7 during the part of the year those flights will be operating.
For people booking ATH tickets from May and onwards prices of 800-900$ are a fantasy, even on EK. Plus getting to fly from JFK is highly preferable for the US-Greece market.
Also D7 has the ATH route operating 6 weekly from the beginning of July to August 9th.


Still some low fares available for EK on their web fare EX ATH which is what we were talking about. Also EK offer Nett fares which they sell via certain tour operators and consolidators.Cruise lines also have nett contracts.



One example

Image
 
marcogr12
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:32 pm

I checked July when DY starts..EK was very expensive 1400e, United 1549,Delta 1291,DY 849(with bags,meals,seats)..I think DY is gonna be a serious competitor!
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:19 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I checked July when DY starts..EK was very expensive 1400e, United 1549,Delta 1291,DY 849(with bags,meals,seats)..I think DY is gonna be a serious competitor!


Yes but these are introductory fares, they just opened their bookings so all fare types are available. Will be interesting to check their fares in a month or two.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2654
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:58 am

Given the seasonal nature of the market and mostly tourist traffic, it makes more sense to make a one stop itinerary through one of the major European hubs.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:58 am

P1aneMad wrote:
So I think both of these two routes will do well for D7 during the part of the year those flights will be operating.

Also D7 has the ATH route operating 6 weekly from the beginning of July to August 9th.


D7? That's AirAsia X, which has nothing to do with this route. Norwegian is DY, not D7.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:35 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I checked July when DY starts..EK was very expensive 1400e, United 1549,Delta 1291,DY 849(with bags,meals,seats)..I think DY is gonna be a serious competitor!


Bit misleading to say they are all EUR1400 in July. It depends on what dates you choose but I am still able to get some dates.


Image


As Blerg says we will see the fares once the limited lower fare buckets are gone. Take a random date 11th August. DY are only showing B class which is EUR467 oneway! So already those el cheapo fares are going. I have seen the pattern of Norwegian on the Irish TATL routes and its a very similar story. If your quick and book in advance you can get some great fares but that is certainly not the norm especially in July/August.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am

Where are the plane and crew coming from? Do they have a base in New York?
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:58 am

Blerg wrote:
Where are the plane and crew coming from? Do they have a base in New York?


They do. For example Amsterdam is also served out of their New York base, Norwegian only has a very limited presence in Amsterdam.

OA260 wrote:
Bit misleading to say they are all EUR1400 in July. It depends on what dates you choose but I am still able to get some dates.


By doing a quick SkyScanner search on the exact same dates as in your search I came up with a round trip between Athens and New York JFK on Alitalia with a transfer in Rome for € 617. Compare that to the € 993 you found "cheap".

Direct flights, even on Norwegian, are just ridiculously expensive out of Athens. It pays off to take a one-stop flight instead.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:13 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Compare that to the € 993 you found "cheap".

Direct flights, even on Norwegian, are just ridiculously expensive out of Athens. It pays off to take a one-stop flight instead.


Lots of people do not want stops. So you need to compare like for like. I was basing on non stop . Going one stop opens up numerous options which is well known.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:39 am

Scoot will increase its year round SIN-ATH service to 5 weekly from 21JUN19 to 19SEP19, on board Boeing 787-8 aircraft.
So it seems that the sole long haul low cost route out of ATH is working.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-s19/
Last edited by P1aneMad on Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:51 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Scoot will increase its year round SIN-ATH service to 5 weekly from 21JUN19 to 19SEP19, on board Boeing 787-8 aircraft.
So it seems that this long haul low cost flying out of ATH is working.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... ce-in-s19/


True, but that's because Athens is an entry point into Europe. Lots of passengers on those flights are only using Athens as a hub. Substitute Athens for any other airport in Europe and you get the same thing.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:55 am

The flight is primarily focused on Australian originating traffic which is big business in Greece.
So it isn't as much an entry point to the rest of Europe but a destination to itself.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:58 am

People talking about strong summer markets that are quiet in winter.

Do they bit realise that when it is summer in the north it is winter in the south. In June, Australians will travel to Europe for summer. In December, Europe will travel to Australia for summer.

I think Greece would be a great hub for Australia. Put a whole heap of A350ULR's from Athens to Melbourne and Sydney and then put narrowbodies from Athens to anywhere in Europe. I think Turkey will beat Greece to this.
 
Bigant0408
Posts: 565
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:26 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:30 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
As I wrote in another thread demand for Mediterranean sea cruises from the US is massive, in fact well over 50% of passengers on Piraeus (the port of Athens) originating cruises are Americans. I suppose something similar happens in Barcelona.
So I think both of these two routes will do well for D7 during the part of the year those flights will be operating.
For people booking ATH tickets from May and onwards prices of 800-900$ are a fantasy, even on EK. Plus getting to fly from JFK is highly preferable for the US-Greece market.
Also D7 has the ATH route operating 6 weekly from the beginning of July to August 9th.


I flew to Athens last year non stop round trip for $912 per person on Delta from JFK which was a steal. This was a June to July trip. I’m glad I caught that deal because prices afterward were ranging from $1100-$1500 which was ridiculous. I live in Philadelphia and wanted to fly nonstop from there but American wanted even more money. I wish Norwegian would have flown last year I definitely would have gave them a chance. I think this is a good choice by Norwegian and should definitely lower pricing on the days they have service. I’m just curious on how Delta will react.
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
JimWhite
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:41 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:26 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?

Can't tell if you're joking or not.

But if serious... then do know that number of long-distance expats almost never equates to profit-potential revenue.

That sort of international traffic only works on (1) short distance, e.g. Florida to Caribbean, or (2) restricted access markets where airlines can charge whatever they want due to limited supply, e.g. Europe to south central African regions.
Scoot was offering fares fromit's Australian port a few weeks back to Athens or berlin from only AUD$309 (about USD$219) one way. Food bags not included but they are not expensive on Scoot. eg. AUD$13 for a meal & around AUD$20 for a checked bag per sector.
 
JimWhite
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:41 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:27 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
People talking about strong summer markets that are quiet in winter.

Do they bit realise that when it is summer in the north it is winter in the south. In June, Australians will travel to Europe for summer. In December, Europe will travel to Australia for summer.

I think Greece would be a great hub for Australia. Put a whole heap of A350ULR's from Athens to Melbourne and Sydney and then put narrowbodies from Athens to anywhere in Europe. I think Turkey will beat Greece to this.
Scoot already doing this but with B787s
 
marcogr12
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:09 pm

OA260 wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
I checked July when DY starts..EK was very expensive 1400e, United 1549,Delta 1291,DY 849(with bags,meals,seats)..I think DY is gonna be a serious competitor!


Bit misleading to say they are all EUR1400 in July. It depends on what dates you choose but I am still able to get some dates.


Image


As Blerg says we will see the fares once the limited lower fare buckets are gone. Take a random date 11th August. DY are only showing B class which is EUR467 oneway! So already those el cheapo fares are going. I have seen the pattern of Norwegian on the Irish TATL routes and its a very similar story. If your quick and book in advance you can get some great fares but that is certainly not the norm especially in July/August.

The dates i checked were 5-10 July...On the dates you checked the difference is smaller ..EK 993, DY 869..The american ones still a lot higher esp.if u want to choose economy plus fares with better legroom or if u want to sit front row seats to hear the engines roar on takeoff..Nevertheless competition is always good for pax
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:38 pm

Talking about one stop options an interesting route which a friend of mine booked was ATH-CMN-JFK and back for July and the fare was EUR453 with Royal Air Maroc.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2085
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:03 pm

JimWhite wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
People talking about strong summer markets that are quiet in winter.

Do they bit realise that when it is summer in the north it is winter in the south. In June, Australians will travel to Europe for summer. In December, Europe will travel to Australia for summer.

I think Greece would be a great hub for Australia. Put a whole heap of A350ULR's from Athens to Melbourne and Sydney and then put narrowbodies from Athens to anywhere in Europe. I think Turkey will beat Greece to this.
Scoot already doing this but with B787s

No they dont.

Emirates is the only airlines that connects 5 Australian cities and 50 european cities with a single stop.

Scoot will need a different airline to do the Europe end making it a 2 stop.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:38 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
People talking about strong summer markets that are quiet in winter.

Do they bit realise that when it is summer in the north it is winter in the south. In June, Australians will travel to Europe for summer. In December, Europe will travel to Australia for summer.

I think Greece would be a great hub for Australia. Put a whole heap of A350ULR's from Athens to Melbourne and Sydney and then put narrowbodies from Athens to anywhere in Europe. I think Turkey will beat Greece to this.


Greece would be a horrible hub for Australia. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in LA LA land. As QF CEO Alan Joyce has pointed out on many occasions the future is point to point. Furthermore which airline is going to operate all these supposedly A350ULR flights, it wont be QF, ATH would not be premium enough for them and VA is never likely to fly to Europe. Additionally how does a hub operate when the bilateral between the 2 countries only allows for 7 weekly flights
Forum Moderator
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13348
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:44 am

JimWhite wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Noshow wrote:
There must be a market between Greece and Australia as there are so many emigrants. Might be a business case for the HiFly A380?

Can't tell if you're joking or not.

But if serious... then do know that number of long-distance expats almost never equates to profit-potential revenue.

That sort of international traffic only works on (1) short distance, e.g. Florida to Caribbean, or (2) restricted access markets where airlines can charge whatever they want due to limited supply, e.g. Europe to south central African regions.
Scoot was offering fares fromit's Australian port a few weeks back to Athens or berlin from only AUD$309 (about USD$219) one way. Food bags not included but they are not expensive on Scoot. eg. AUD$13 for a meal & around AUD$20 for a checked bag per sector.

The statement is in reference to a nonstop........
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
debonair
Posts: 3905
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:33 am

OA260 wrote:
DY are only showing B class which is EUR467 oneway! So already those el cheapo fares are going.


In September/October one-way ATH-JFK NONSTOP 169,90€ (106,21€ fare plus 63,69€ Tax). :wideeyed:
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:37 am

debonair wrote:
OA260 wrote:
DY are only showing B class which is EUR467 oneway! So already those el cheapo fares are going.


In September/October one-way ATH-JFK NONSTOP 169,90€ (106,21€ fare plus 63,69€ Tax). :wideeyed:


Buy one while you can because even though its not July / Aug which are already going fast these will not stay that way for long. From what I have heard they are allocating 50 seats per flight at that fare bucket. ! Then its back up to well above that.
 
PacificWest
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:22 am

Freshside3 wrote:

PacificWest wrote:
I would like to at least see a seasonal nonstop to Athens from the US West Coast, as I make the journey every 2-3 years... I don't care if it's Norwegian or Emirates or whatever.
The reason is because I try to avoid the East Coast or Midwest at all costs for connecting flight, because of probability of delays/cancellations due to weather and congestion.


The West Coast is even more problematic, for Greece. It would be difficult to market the flight. Although Los Angeles has the largest Greek population of the West Coast cities, it is a bit dysfunctional. Does not have the local ethnic media infrastructure, nor a central ethnic community...….this is in contrast to the Midwest and East Coast cities.

Also, service to Chicago to Athens----which was the biggest "no-brainer" for many years----is finally getting on the schedule this year. Took years to convince some carrier to step forward and do it. Not going to happen with LAX. If any city gets new service to Greece, it will be BOS/IAD/DTW...….but even that is a stretch.


While I won't discount the importance of the ethnic Greek community in making ATH work from somewhere like LAX (I know that a lot of Greeks make the journey once at least once every 2-3 years) —Greece tourism is blowing up. It's gone from 22MM tourists in 2014 to 33MM tourists in 2018.

Given how massive the population in Southern California, I have to believe at some point -- someone will be able to make a seasonal 4-5x/week work on a 787 or A330.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:15 am

It's a shame UA and A3 don't have a better relationship. UA could launch either LAX or SFO and make the most of Aegean's regional network, especially to the Middle East and to places such as Georgia or Armenia.
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 8:43 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:46 am

Blerg wrote:
It's a shame UA and A3 don't have a better relationship. UA could launch either LAX or SFO and make the most of Aegean's regional network, especially to the Middle East and to places such as Georgia or Armenia.


Agree, although IAD (and possibly ORD) would be added before the West Coast.
I'm still surprised AA is launching ORD-ATH before UA. United has the smallest presence of all US carriers in ATH, which should not be the case considering the A3 connectivity.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 24608
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:31 pm

PacificWest wrote:
Greece tourism is blowing up. It's gone from 22MM tourists in 2014 to 33MM tourists in 2018.

.



Although the peak seems to have reached the end point according to expected figures for this year. Still impressive numbers but expect a slow down/zero growth as the article states.

Omens from air seat plans not good for new tourism season

The first signs regarding Greece’s foreign visitor numbers this year are not positive, suggesting that those who have been predicting zero growth at best from last year could turn out to be right. A retreat from 2018’s record 33 million tourists and 16 billion euros in tourism revenues appears likely.

Early though it may be too early to deduce any safe conclusions about the course of tourism in 2019, provisional data on airline seat planning for flights to Greece for the rest of the year showed a decline last month compared to January 2018, when there had been an increase from January 2017. This means that the carriers flying tourists to Greece are adjusting to demand and reducing their seat availability from last year. Sources that have monitored these figures for years tell Kathimerini that this is the first time in several years that there has been a decline in seat planning instead of an increase.

This is despite the fact that passenger traffic in January continued to rise at Greece’s airports at a rate of about 10 percent year-on-year. Sources attribute this increase to Greece’s growing popularity as a city break destination, to the normal operation of Thessaloniki’s Makedonia Airport (whose services a year ago were restricted due to works), and to the general momentum of Greek tourism over the last few years.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/237596/arti ... ism-season
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1254
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:11 pm

If DY makes their ATH-JFK-ATH route work this year would DY consider perhaps a similar 3x or 4x summer seasonal 2020(assuming aircraft availability) on a ATH-BOS-ATH routing in addition to their JFK service?
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:20 pm

georgiabill wrote:
If DY makes their ATH-JFK-ATH route work this year would DY consider perhaps a similar 3x or 4x summer seasonal 2020(assuming aircraft availability) on a ATH-BOS-ATH routing in addition to their JFK service?


I very much doubt it, New York attracts far more passengers than Boston. Besides, it remains to be seen if the route to New York will succeed. It can easily be undercut by one-stop options through other European hubs. Big chance Norwegian will end up cutting this route.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:02 pm

OlympicATH wrote:
Blerg wrote:
It's a shame UA and A3 don't have a better relationship. UA could launch either LAX or SFO and make the most of Aegean's regional network, especially to the Middle East and to places such as Georgia or Armenia.


Agree, although IAD (and possibly ORD) would be added before the West Coast.
I'm still surprised AA is launching ORD-ATH before UA. United has the smallest presence of all US carriers in ATH, which should not be the case considering the A3 connectivity.


I guess it's easier for them to route all of their passengers through LH Group hubs in Europe, especially MUC and FRA. UA could really profit from Aegean's domestic network in addition to their regional one. I think AA was extremely smart to smart ORD, that's a massive untapped market right there.
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:13 pm

Blerg wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:
Blerg wrote:
It's a shame UA and A3 don't have a better relationship. UA could launch either LAX or SFO and make the most of Aegean's regional network, especially to the Middle East and to places such as Georgia or Armenia.


Agree, although IAD (and possibly ORD) would be added before the West Coast.
I'm still surprised AA is launching ORD-ATH before UA. United has the smallest presence of all US carriers in ATH, which should not be the case considering the A3 connectivity.


I guess it's easier for them to route all of their passengers through LH Group hubs in Europe, especially MUC and FRA. UA could really profit from Aegean's domestic network in addition to their regional one. I think AA was extremely smart to smart ORD, that's a massive untapped market right there.


Definitely right about the untapped market, the last time ORD was connected to ATH was in the mid 1990s with OA operating 747-200s on ATH-JFK-ORD. Suprising to me though that BOS lasted longer and was operated up-to the A340s as a tag also onto JFK.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:55 pm

Melbourne wrote:
Blerg wrote:
OlympicATH wrote:

Agree, although IAD (and possibly ORD) would be added before the West Coast.
I'm still surprised AA is launching ORD-ATH before UA. United has the smallest presence of all US carriers in ATH, which should not be the case considering the A3 connectivity.


I guess it's easier for them to route all of their passengers through LH Group hubs in Europe, especially MUC and FRA. UA could really profit from Aegean's domestic network in addition to their regional one. I think AA was extremely smart to smart ORD, that's a massive untapped market right there.


Definitely right about the untapped market, the last time ORD was connected to ATH was in the mid 1990s with OA operating 747-200s on ATH-JFK-ORD. Suprising to me though that BOS lasted longer and was operated up-to the A340s as a tag also onto JFK.

For ORD, the routing was ORD-JFK-ATH. Most of the seats were sold in the NYC market, which left very few available out of ORD. You had the expense of a second station, but gaining minimal income, for the amount of expense needed.
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:43 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Melbourne wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I guess it's easier for them to route all of their passengers through LH Group hubs in Europe, especially MUC and FRA. UA could really profit from Aegean's domestic network in addition to their regional one. I think AA was extremely smart to smart ORD, that's a massive untapped market right there.


Definitely right about the untapped market, the last time ORD was connected to ATH was in the mid 1990s with OA operating 747-200s on ATH-JFK-ORD. Suprising to me though that BOS lasted longer and was operated up-to the A340s as a tag also onto JFK.

For ORD, the routing was ORD-JFK-ATH. Most of the seats were sold in the NYC market, which left very few available out of ORD. You had the expense of a second station, but gaining minimal income, for the amount of expense needed.


OA operated ORD from 1970s through YUL initially. Half of the issue with OA was the tag services which they did work on such as ATH-BKK-SIN-MEL-SYD became ATH-BKK-SYD-MEL & ATH-BKK-MEL-SYD once weekly each. Likewise ATH-NBO-JNB became ATH-JNB.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:57 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Melbourne wrote:
Blerg wrote:

I guess it's easier for them to route all of their passengers through LH Group hubs in Europe, especially MUC and FRA. UA could really profit from Aegean's domestic network in addition to their regional one. I think AA was extremely smart to smart ORD, that's a massive untapped market right there.


Definitely right about the untapped market, the last time ORD was connected to ATH was in the mid 1990s with OA operating 747-200s on ATH-JFK-ORD. Suprising to me though that BOS lasted longer and was operated up-to the A340s as a tag also onto JFK.

For ORD, the routing was ORD-JFK-ATH. Most of the seats were sold in the NYC market, which left very few available out of ORD. You had the expense of a second station, but gaining minimal income, for the amount of expense needed.


I guess there wasn't as much demand from ORD because the stop in New York wasn't making it very practical, there was no difference between flying on OA or BA, KL, AF...
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:23 am

Blerg wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Melbourne wrote:

Definitely right about the untapped market, the last time ORD was connected to ATH was in the mid 1990s with OA operating 747-200s on ATH-JFK-ORD. Suprising to me though that BOS lasted longer and was operated up-to the A340s as a tag also onto JFK.

For ORD, the routing was ORD-JFK-ATH. Most of the seats were sold in the NYC market, which left very few available out of ORD. You had the expense of a second station, but gaining minimal income, for the amount of expense needed.


I guess there wasn't as much demand from ORD because the stop in New York wasn't making it very practical, there was no difference between flying on OA or BA, KL, AF...


World of difference as the OA services was a direct flight as opposed to the connections through other hubs.
 
Blerg
Posts: 4271
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:29 am

Melbourne wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
For ORD, the routing was ORD-JFK-ATH. Most of the seats were sold in the NYC market, which left very few available out of ORD. You had the expense of a second station, but gaining minimal income, for the amount of expense needed.


I guess there wasn't as much demand from ORD because the stop in New York wasn't making it very practical, there was no difference between flying on OA or BA, KL, AF...


World of difference as the OA services was a direct flight as opposed to the connections through other hubs.


Yes but I am referring to the stop in JFK on their way from ORD to ATH.
 
User avatar
Melbourne
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:48 pm

[quote="Blerg"][quote="Melbourne"][quote="Blerg"]

I guess there wasn't as much demand from ORD because the stop in New York wasn't making it very practical, there was no difference between flying on OA or BA, KL, AF...[/quote]

World of difference as the OA services was a direct flight as opposed to the connections through other hubs.[/quote]

Yes but I am referring to the stop in JFK on their way from ORD to ATH.[/quote]

Regardless of the stop at JFK it was still a direct flight to Athens from ORD not via two services and another hub.
 
skyduster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:00 am

Re: Low cost long haul for Greece

Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:54 am

PacificWest wrote:

While I won't discount the importance of the ethnic Greek community in making ATH work from somewhere like LAX (I know that a lot of Greeks make the journey once at least once every 2-3 years) —Greece tourism is blowing up. It's gone from 22MM tourists in 2014 to 33MM tourists in 2018.


That's exactly what it is. People love to overstate the importance of the "ethnic Greek community" (Greek expats and their US-born children) in US-GR travel, but the fact is that American tourism to Greece has been growing, and it's largely from cruises as P1aneMad pointed out, with both Athens and Barcelona being common beginning and end points for Mediterranean cruises. Greek national tourism policy has also been actively working to increase higher-spending long-haul tourists from places like the US and China, to rely less on short-stay/lower-spending Europeans (who may be slowing down this year, as OA260 mentioned), as well as courting cruise companies to make Piraeus a base (which generates a lot more income than just being a port-of-call). And, of course, there's been a growth in Americans visiting, and Americans -who are afraid to go out and about on their own- absolutely love their cruises.

I'm not so sure on LAX-ATH, though. ORD makes a lot more sense, not because of its Greek expat population (which has been around for decades, and never able to sustain flights), but because -unlike LAX- ORD is geographically positioned to act as a hub (after NYC, YYZ/YUL, and countless European options) for US-GR travel.

OA260 wrote:
The first signs regarding Greece’s foreign visitor numbers this year are not positive, suggesting that those who have been predicting zero growth at best from last year could turn out to be right. A retreat from 2018’s record 33 million tourists and 16 billion euros in tourism revenues appears likely.

Early though it may be too early to deduce any safe conclusions about the course of tourism in 2019, provisional data on airline seat planning for flights to Greece for the rest of the year showed a decline last month compared to January 2018, when there had been an increase from January 2017. This means that the carriers flying tourists to Greece are adjusting to demand and reducing their seat availability from last year. Sources that have monitored these figures for years tell Kathimerini that this is the first time in several years that there has been a decline in seat planning instead of an increase.

This is despite the fact that passenger traffic in January continued to rise at Greece’s airports at a rate of about 10 percent year-on-year. Sources attribute this increase to Greece’s growing popularity as a city break destination, to the normal operation of Thessaloniki’s Makedonia Airport (whose services a year ago were restricted due to works), and to the general momentum of Greek tourism over the last few years.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/237596/arti ... ism-season


I agree that this year will be hard to predict.

Reaching 33 million international visitors by 2018 was unforeseen in the first place. I believe SETE (the federation the tourism-related businesses in Greece) commissioned a study some years ago that set the goal of 24 million by 2020. That benchmark was then reached way earlier, in 2014 if I remember correctly, just a few years after the study (22 million based on hotel stays only, 24 million when net cruise visitors were included). While everyone was obsessed with China, unforeseen was the huge growth in arrivals from Eastern/Central Europe, Turkey, Israel, Russia, and France. Also unforeseen was the growth in LCCs, and the huge increase in short-stay tourism as a result of the LCCs. The troubles in Turkey and North Africa also contributed, but I think Tunisia and Egypt may be a little overstated as competitors...not that they should be taken for granted. But the Greek model needs to continue moving toward better quality for visitors, and stop trying to compete with the low costs on the other side of the Med. Plus, Greece has the advantage that many of its visitors, like Bulgarians or Hungarians or Serbs or Czechs, can drive down to Greece for a last-minute 2-7 day holiday...something they can't do with North Africa.
mostly lurker, very rare poster

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos