mm320cap
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Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:56 pm

https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-sc ... k-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:59 pm

For some reason I thought DL (as a result of NW merger) had a crew base in AMS...guess not. Not good to get busted for this for many reasons obviously.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:01 pm

Well there is just no way to justify drinken alcohol before a flight, this guy should be fired.
 
BobbyPSP
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:48 pm

In the US, are crew still protected in their jobs if the self declare a problem BEFORE an incident like today? Working with the company, go to rehab etc
 
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OA412
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:52 pm

mm320cap wrote:
And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*

The article you linked to specifically indicates that DL confirmed to them that the flight was cancelled due to a crew duty issue. It does note that they told a different site that it was cancelled as a mechanical issue. They should probably get their story straight before speaking to the press, but DL did admit to at least one source that the cancellation was crew related.
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mercure1
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:01 am

The strange part indeed was the manner the cancellation was described.

Per European media even passengers were told it was a mechanical issue and this only changed when news came out shortly afterwards from local authorities that a crew member was instead detained.

While certainly no company likes negative coverage it seems there was desire or certainly attempt to paint the cancellation as something it was not to the public.

Makes one wonder how accurate many public facing delay/cancellation info's really are?
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United1
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:16 am

Perhaps the mechanical issue was the FO couldn't figure out how to mechanically work his chair....who knows. The important part is this person was not allowed to fly :)

Guess I'm curious how it happened...were they caught before they got to the aircraft or by crew/passengers.
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FF630
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:54 am

Sad, I have a friend who was in rehab. She told me there were a lot of cockpit and cabin crew folks from three different major airlines in rehab with her. This was not the first time in rehab for some of them.

I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.
 
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:02 am

FF630 wrote:
Sad, I have a friend who was in rehab. She told me there were a lot of cockpit and cabin crew folks from three different major airlines in rehab with her. This was not the first time in rehab for some of them.

I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.


I could definitely see that. I'm sure it's a lonely life for many. It's also a way to pass the time. It would be interesting to see a study that took a look at pilots that drank heavily, moderately, and rarely. Pilots tend to age horribly. My granddather is 75 and still has most of his hair color and few winkles. He was a fire department chief. Most widebody captains I see have a full head of white hair and with aged skin. And obviously they are a lot younger than 75. I'm sure alcohol added into all of that radiation doesn't help.

I do hope this guy will get the help he needs. And hopefully it will be a wake-up call to others who may be in his shoes. I think most airlines are understanding of their employees come to them and ask for help. But all bets are off once they cross the line.
 
MR27122
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:04 am

OA412 wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*

The article you linked to specifically indicates that DL confirmed to them that the flight was cancelled due to a crew duty issue. It does note that they told a different site that it was cancelled as a mechanical issue. They should probably get their story straight before speaking to the press, but DL did admit to at least one source that the cancellation was crew related.


EU261
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:04 am

I have a hard time understanding how this happens. I'm a drinker but if I was a pilot I would never drink on a trip. But even if I messed up and did I would call in sick. Why do they ever go to the airport with any chance of getting caught?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:42 am

FF630 wrote:
Sad, I have a friend who was in rehab. She told me there were a lot of cockpit and cabin crew folks from three different major airlines in rehab with her. This was not the first time in rehab for some of them.

I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.

Probably because a lot of union contracts have clauses where if you go to rehab you don’t get fired.
 
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:53 am

To a degree. Its also to an extent an ADA issue. Certain ailments, like alcoholism, can under certain circumstances be treated as a disability. A lot depends upon the diagnosis and how far the doctors and lawyers are willing to go, but in some cases it may be against the law to fire a diagnosed alcoholic. We had an administrator get drunk and disorderly at a school drama function, threaten (allegedly) some parents, and do it all in front of a school board trustee, and this was not the first time. What happened? He claimed an alcoholic disability, the law backed him, and he was merely demoted - back to teacher. He's teaching middle school, the last I heard. Before anyone starts union bashing, that wasn't the issue. The law was the issue. The school couldn't fire him due to ADA concerns. Believe me, we don't want him, the union doesn't want him, but we're stuck with him due to disability law.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:25 am

Not sure why Delta opted to call it a mechanical issue instead of crew shortage or something.

Even if they seek shrug some responsibility under EU261 there are enough cases out there that show they would bear responsibility unless mechanical was an extra ordinary circumstance.

At the end Delta not only has egg on its face due to the pilots actions but also it's apparent initial cover up. Needless added bad PR.
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FF630
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:28 am

Never thought about the union contract or ADA, both good points. Probably why there are so many repeat offenders from the industry in rehab again and again.
 
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zeke
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:35 am

mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*


I don’t think any group in Aviation is any worse than the general population, the statistics are something like 1 in 1000 will fail a random test, this is far lower that what you see on the roads. It is hard to compare with other industries as most industries outside aviation do not conduct random testing.

This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.
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airportugal310
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:49 am

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*


I don’t think any group in Aviation is any worse than the general population, the statistics are something like 1 in 1000 will fail a random test, this is far lower that what you see on the roads. It is hard to compare with other industries as most industries outside aviation do not conduct random testing.

This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.


...and your point is what, exactly? That they broke the rules but they didn’t break the rules THAT badly?
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zeke
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:55 am

airportugal310 wrote:

...and your point is what, exactly? That they broke the rules but they didn’t break the rules THAT badly?


You and I would not be able to make a self assessment to determine the difference between 0.054 and 0.040, to put that in context your body would normally metabolize 0.015 per hour, so in under 1 hour they would have been under this limit at 0.039.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
luckyone
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:58 am

FF630 wrote:
Sad, I have a friend who was in rehab. She told me there were a lot of cockpit and cabin crew folks from three different major airlines in rehab with her. This was not the first time in rehab for some of them.

I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.

During residency I was called to the emergency department for a case of meth psychosis—itself not that common in Chicago. The individual in question had invaded a private home, naked, and held a knife to a young girl. The parents managed to call police. He stayed, but put a dress on thinking this would disguise him from the police who would be looking for a naked man. Turns out this person was a pilot for a major airline and was due to fly the next day. I don’t know what happened afterward but I often glance in the cockpit...
 
Eikie
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:36 pm

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*



This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.

In the country he was checked, the limit is 0.2, making it almost 3x... (For both flying and driving)
 
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zeke
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:04 pm

Eikie wrote:
In the country he was checked, the limit is 0.2, making it almost 3x... (For both flying and driving)


I thought it was 0.2 mg/L of breath which is equivalent to a BAC of 0.040%
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:11 pm

You only get protection before the incident

if you show up at the airport and report it you’re protected

If you show up at the airport and you’re drunk in the cockpit...you’re done
Last edited by jfklganyc on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mmo
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:12 pm

FF630 wrote:
Never thought about the union contract or ADA, both good points. Probably why there are so many repeat offenders from the industry in rehab again and again.


Could you provide a source for statement? Pilots who enter the ALPA HIMS program have one of the lowest or lowest recidivism rate. So, it strikes me as very strange you would make an unsubstantiated such as you have.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
DirectPupdog
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:21 pm

He should be forced to pay for all the rebooking and costs associated with the cancelled flight, right guys?
 
mcdu
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:18 pm

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*


I don’t think any group in Aviation is any worse than the general population, the statistics are something like 1 in 1000 will fail a random test, this is far lower that what you see on the roads. It is hard to compare with other industries as most industries outside aviation do not conduct random testing.

This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.


The European limit is ZERO. He wasn’t driving a car so that doesn’t count. Drives me crazy to hear pilots marginalize guys getting caught over the limit. If you show up at AMS with alcohol in your system you are putting yourself at risk. They often have the breathalyzer in the jetway awaiting the crew to board. They will also randomly check upon arrival. With such a large operation in AMS this pilot should have been keenly aware of the rules.
 
mcdu
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:23 pm

zeke wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:

...and your point is what, exactly? That they broke the rules but they didn’t break the rules THAT badly?


You and I would not be able to make a self assessment to determine the difference between 0.054 and 0.040, to put that in context your body would normally metabolize 0.015 per hour, so in under 1 hour they would have been under this limit at 0.039.


You seem bent on defending pilots showing up over the limit. You even try to defer the impact by saying it’s below the limit to drive. The fact is this pilot made a bad choice and disrupted 100’s of people’s travel plans. For that termination would be the best action. However his union will make sure he get to keep his job. If there were real consequences for pilots actions like this then the rate of offending would drop significantly. Currently there is no deterrent.
 
FF630
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:25 pm

MMO

Responded to 32andbelow statement above, better ask him or her.
 
sw733
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:26 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how this happens. I'm a drinker but if I was a pilot I would never drink on a trip. But even if I messed up and did I would call in sick. Why do they ever go to the airport with any chance of getting caught?


I think that just goes to show how bad the addiction can be for some people. You may not be able to understand it, and I can't imagine myself doing it, but I do know people with such an addiction that their actions are baffling. I hope this FO gets help, but he made a major mistake and certainly could have made it much worse for everyone.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:54 pm

Addiction takes all shapes and forms. There comes a point in addiction where you have to drink or use or the physic consequences are horrible. It feels like you have the fluX10 I’ve seen football player shaking laying in a puddle of liquid feces because they were too weak to move.
 
mcdu
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:02 pm

All of the pilots defending this drunk. I have to ask. Do you operate your aircraft beyond your company limitation section? If you get a momentary overspeed due to turbulence do you write that up as required or scoff it off as “it was just a little over the limit”? Limits are limits be it an operational limit on your aircraft or being over the legal limit of alcohol for the flight you are about to operate.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:57 pm

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*


I don’t think any group in Aviation is any worse than the general population, the statistics are something like 1 in 1000 will fail a random test, this is far lower that what you see on the roads. It is hard to compare with other industries as most industries outside aviation do not conduct random testing.

This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.


The article stated 3x the limit, so that’s what I quoted. I am not privy to the actual results.

I’m not concerned with other industries. We as pilots need this number to be zero. There is too much at stake, and we are compensated as such. I get it’s a disease, but it’s also self induced. I had cancer (non smoker, fit and active) which is a disease that I had no control over whatsoever. If you can’t control your drinking, then being an airline pilot shouldn’t be for you.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:59 pm

FF630 wrote:
I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.


Good Question. From what I understand, alcohol dependence is not at all more prevelant in pilots and Flight Attendants than the disease is in any other profession. The perception comes from the fact that when a pilot or Flight Attendant shows up over the limit and gets caught, it’s usually a front page, multinational story. This is isn’t usually the case with most other professions. Also since pilots and flight attendants careers are so dependent on clear headedness and professionalism and sobriety, they may be quicker to seek recovery and thus be more likely to be spotted in rehab.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:16 pm

For us on the ramp (different airline) if we declare to the employee assistance program that we have a problem and we are seeking treatment, it goes a long way in making sure you don’t get fired if you show up drunk. It’s not a sure-fire bet, but it is something someone should look into if they are a heavy drinker or tend to push the limit on “bottle to clock in time”.

I would imagine pilots may have a similar program, but it is only if you declare prior to an incident not after.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
777PHX
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:23 pm

BobbyPSP wrote:
In the US, are crew still protected in their jobs if the self declare a problem BEFORE an incident like today? Working with the company, go to rehab etc


Both before and after as part of the HIMS program. Alcoholism is considered a diagnoseable disease by the FAA and can be "cured".
 
VS11
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:45 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how this happens. I'm a drinker but if I was a pilot I would never drink on a trip. But even if I messed up and did I would call in sick. Why do they ever go to the airport with any chance of getting caught?


The first thing that alcohol does is affect your judgement. Hence, you are likely to start making bad decisions after your first drink. Typically, your first bad decision is to have another drink thinking that you are fine...
 
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zeke
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:36 am

mm320cap wrote:
The article stated 3x the limit, so that’s what I quoted. I am not privy to the actual results.


The article says “The authorities said the co-pilot's breath test showed a result of 270 micrograms of alcohol per liter of breath.”

That is equivalent to a BAC of 0.054% where the limit is 0.040%
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
goboeing
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:39 am

jfklganyc wrote:
You only get protection before the incident

if you show up at the airport and report it you’re protected

If you show up at the airport and you’re drunk in the cockpit...you’re done


"Done" meaning what?

If you know the process, that individual can continue via successful participation in the HIMS recovery program. They'll be in it for the remainder of their career after the initial full-time part concludes, but I suspect you don't realize this or perhaps your wording with "done" just made it seem so.
 
N757ST
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:12 am

goboeing wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
You only get protection before the incident

if you show up at the airport and report it you’re protected

If you show up at the airport and you’re drunk in the cockpit...you’re done


"Done" meaning what?

If you know the process, that individual can continue via successful participation in the HIMS recovery program. They'll be in it for the remainder of their career after the initial full-time part concludes, but I suspect you don't realize this or perhaps your wording with "done" just made it seem so.


That depends on the airline. Some airlines allow HIMS to intervene and allow pilots to maintain employment after an incident like this. Others draw the line in the sand at report time, as in you can call hims until you walk through the door, but if you walk through it you face termination and hims isn’t a solution. I believe Delta is an airline that allows rehabilitation in a situation like this, but for other airlines like he said, they’d be done as an employee.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:07 am

People get fired for saying something stupid or posting something stupid on social media these days. But apparently it's ok if you show up drunk to operate a transatlantic flight. What a world.
 
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zeke
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:24 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
People get fired for saying something stupid or posting something stupid on social media these days. But apparently it's ok if you show up drunk to operate a transatlantic flight. What a world.


While he was over the limit at the time he was tested, he would have been under the limit by the time they started to taxi. Normally crew are at the airport an hour or more before departing. When he was tested it was a BAC of 0.054%, after an hour it would be 0.039% at the rate the body normally breaks it down.

In comparison you should look at the fatigue levels airlines routinely roster crew for and what that level of impairment would be equivalent to in BAC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:26 am

I wonder if the people who say that the pilot was "drunk" would care to define what that word means in their view. The figures given above show that yes he had some alcohol in his body, but I very much doubt that he was "drunk"! To call him such is a bit of an insult
 
mm320cap
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:27 am

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
The article stated 3x the limit, so that’s what I quoted. I am not privy to the actual results.


The article says “The authorities said the co-pilot's breath test showed a result of 270 micrograms of alcohol per liter of breath.”

That is equivalent to a BAC of 0.054% where the limit is 0.040%


This directly lifted from the article:

The 51-year-old man was detained at the airport and issued a spot fine of 3,400 euros after breath tests showed an alcohol content three times higher than the legal limit for flight crews.

Not that it really matters. The court isn’t going to care less about what it was. Over the limit is going to get you detained. Doesn’t matter what kind of justification you try to give
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:30 am

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People get fired for saying something stupid or posting something stupid on social media these days. But apparently it's ok if you show up drunk to operate a transatlantic flight. What a world.


While he was over the limit at the time he was tested, he would have been under the limit by the time they started to taxi. Normally crew are at the airport an hour or more before departing. When he was tested it was a BAC of 0.054%, after an hour it would be 0.039% at the rate the body normally breaks it down.

In comparison you should look at the fatigue levels airlines routinely roster crew for and what that level of impairment would be equivalent to in BAC.


I don't care if his BAC dropped to 0.000% when the brakes were released. He made a very poor decision and showed up to work legally intoxicated. Some people I know will have a couple of drinks with their meal if they go out to dinner and then drive home. They don't think two drinks will have any effect on them. You know how many drinks I'll have if I go out for dinner and plan on driving? None. If drinking then someone else is driving. It's at least 12 hours from my last drink to the time I drive.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:35 am

sassiciai wrote:
I wonder if the people who say that the pilot was "drunk" would care to define what that word means in their view. The figures given above show that yes he had some alcohol in his body, but I very much doubt that he was "drunk"! To call him such is a bit of an insult


This was a 9am flight. According to the article, he blew 3x over the limit - I’m assuming after a nights sleep. Must have been some evening the night before. People are usually talking about a legal limit when they are driving RIGHT AFTER A FEW DRINKS. Not the next day.

The best thing for this guy is for nobody to make any excuses, accept that there is a problem, and embrace the solution.
Last edited by mm320cap on Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:36 am

sassiciai wrote:
I wonder if the people who say that the pilot was "drunk" would care to define what that word means in their view. The figures given above show that yes he had some alcohol in his body, but I very much doubt that he was "drunk"! To call him such is a bit of an insult


It is an insult to your customers and coworkers to have such a lack of self-control that you would violate FAA, EASA, and company rules.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5430
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:18 pm

Done being fired, gone, terminated, over

There is no successful HIMS program for pilots drunk in cockpit. That is criminal activity.

We live in a world where everything firm is questionable nowadays.

The pilot world and cockpit are not like that. Black and white rules to follow. Plain and simple.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:25 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Done being fired, gone, terminated, over

There is no successful HIMS program for pilots drunk in cockpit. That is criminal activity.

We live in a world where everything firm is questionable nowadays.

The pilot world and cockpit are not like that. Black and white rules to follow. Plain and simple.

Thankfully, you're not the one making the decision.

Nothing is black and white in life. Sometimes, grey needs to happen.

Lastly: remember this conversation next time someone gives you a "get out of jail free" card, and be thankful they didn't fire/throw you in jail at the first offence when there is an acceptable alternative.
 
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LH748
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:48 pm

At the security check they should just introduce an alcohol breath test for all crew members and stop anyone who's not fit for duty
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chicawgo
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:49 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Done being fired, gone, terminated, over

There is no successful HIMS program for pilots drunk in cockpit. That is criminal activity.

We live in a world where everything firm is questionable nowadays.

The pilot world and cockpit are not like that. Black and white rules to follow. Plain and simple.

Thankfully, you're not the one making the decision.

Nothing is black and white in life. Sometimes, grey needs to happen.

Lastly: remember this conversation next time someone gives you a "get out of jail free" card, and be thankful they didn't fire/throw you in jail at the first offence when there is an acceptable alternative.


Do you not consider the difference between being responsible for the lives of hundreds of people versus working in a 9-5 office position? One of the main reasons aviation has become so safe is precisely because of the institution of black and white regulations. Sterile cockpit rule. Cockpit resource management. Hell, even standard checklists.

Grey areas combining have been the cause of far too many accidents. Aviation is not an industry for grey areas.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:52 pm

mcdu wrote:
zeke wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
...and your point is what, exactly? That they broke the rules but they didn’t break the rules THAT badly?

You and I would not be able to make a self assessment to determine the difference between 0.054 and 0.040, to put that in context your body would normally metabolize 0.015 per hour, so in under 1 hour they would have been under this limit at 0.039.

You seem bent on defending pilots showing up over the limit. You even try to defer the impact by saying it’s below the limit to drive. The fact is this pilot made a bad choice and disrupted 100’s of people’s travel plans. For that termination would be the best action. However his union will make sure he get to keep his job. If there were real consequences for pilots actions like this then the rate of offending would drop significantly. Currently there is no deterrent.

I think Zeke is just trying to explain the situation in terms people understand.

I think your statement about the pilot's fate are premature and probably wrong.

There will be real consequences for this pilot, be it firing, a stint in rehab, etc.
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