airtechy
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:15 am

I'm reminded of the former NWA crew who actually flew drunk, were caught, somehow got through re-hab ... possibly through the help of NW's managment.. , and at least one returned to flying. In fact, retired flying the 747 as I recall.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:11 am

jfklganyc wrote:
There is no grey area in aviation.

There are rules, limits, policies...very militaristic...for a good reason.


Once again you are posting incorrect information.

The entire book of regulations is a grey area. Hundreds of interpretations have had to be published over decades because of that.

jfklganyc wrote:
If he was at the controls drunk, he is a goner...no HIMS. Not my take or opinion, it is a criminal act and that is the way it is.


You simply do not understand the HIMS program or the scenario itself. The above is completely incorrect.

jfklganyc wrote:
If it was before that, he has a fighting chance for HIMS.


It's the only option. "Fighting chance" is up to the individual as they go through the process.

jfklganyc wrote:
This publicity doesnt help though.


The publicity has nothing to do with the outcome. These events are handled without regard to what the press thinks about them via rumors and second hand information.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
You can bet the pilots would be picketing if the airline cut 10 minutes off of their overnight and claim it was an unsafe practice.


TTailedTiger, what does the above statement mean?

TTailedTiger wrote:
But I guess they turn a blind eye to drunk coworkers reporting for work.


A functioning alcoholic can have a lot more in their system than you or I and still be able to, as the phrase says, function. What might make a lot of us black out, is just a buzz for them. Obviously it's got to take a toll on one's body but the addiction overrides those concerns for those headed down that path.

As to coworkers, we don't know what happened in this situation other than what some articles said but let me remind you that an international flight crew is a dozen or so people strolling into a big hotel lobby over some time, and at various times, getting into a ~20 person minibus.

The previous day's hours had them awake until maybe 3-8AM home time, then a brief nap before some afternoon/evening activities. Then wake up at anywhere from midnight to 3:00AM home base time, time to head back to the airport.

Just how chipper do you expect your coworkers to be on the bus ride to the airport?

Have you considered any of this before making your absolutely ridiculous assertion that coworkers are leading one of their own down the primrose path?
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1262
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:35 am

goboeing wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You can bet the pilots would be picketing if the airline cut 10 minutes off of their overnight and claim it was an unsafe practice.


TTailedTiger, what does the above statement mean?

TTailedTiger wrote:
But I guess they turn a blind eye to drunk coworkers reporting for work.


A functioning alcoholic can have a lot more in their system than you or I and still be able to, as the phrase says, function. What might make a lot of us black out, is just a buzz for them. Obviously it's got to take a toll on one's body but the addiction overrides those concerns for those headed down that path.

As to coworkers, we don't know what happened in this situation other than what some articles said but let me remind you that an international flight crew is a dozen or so people strolling into a big hotel lobby over some time, and at various times, getting into a ~20 person minibus.

The previous day's hours had them awake until maybe 3-8AM home time, then a brief nap before some afternoon/evening activities. Then wake up at anywhere from midnight to 3:00AM home base time, time to head back to the airport.

Just how chipper do you expect your coworkers to be on the bus ride to the airport?

Have you considered any of this before making your absolutely ridiculous assertion that coworkers are leading one of their own down the primrose path?


What I mean is that if the airline tried to add additional time to their duty day or shorten their rest period the pilots would throw a fit. They would say the airline was making them work in an unsafe environment by having to work without proper rest. And they would have a point. But to do nothing when a coworker shows up drunk and is allowed to keep their job just shows what hypocrites they are. They should be picketing and demanding that they be fired in the name of safety.

This pilot had every opportunity to enter rehab before he made the bad decision to show up for work drunk. I hope he gets help for his problem but I never want him at the controls of my flight. And I would never want to work with someone who cares so little about the safety of their co-workers and customers. Pilots know the rules when they start working on their private license.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:07 pm

goboeing wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There is no grey area in aviation.

There are rules, limits, policies...very militaristic...for a good reason.


Once again you are posting incorrect information.

The entire book of regulations is a grey area. Hundreds of interpretations have had to be published over decades because of that.

jfklganyc wrote:
If he was at the controls drunk, he is a goner...no HIMS. Not my take or opinion, it is a criminal act and that is the way it is.


You simply do not understand the HIMS program or the scenario itself. The above is completely incorrect.

jfklganyc wrote:
If it was before that, he has a fighting chance for HIMS.


It's the only option. "Fighting chance" is up to the individual as they go through the process.

jfklganyc wrote:
This publicity doesnt help though.


The publicity has nothing to do with the outcome. These events are handled without regard to what the press thinks about them via rumors and second hand information.


Really?

What world are you living in where pubicity of a bad situation doesnt affect corporate decisions?

Tell me about that world.

Is it a world where unruly pax like the United Dr get their due or rewarded for beligerent behavior?

Is it a world with viral videos?

Does your world have social media and “shaming?”


I would like to read more about this fictional world
 
N757ST
Posts: 703
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:33 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
goboeing wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There is no grey area in aviation.

There are rules, limits, policies...very militaristic...for a good reason.


Once again you are posting incorrect information.

The entire book of regulations is a grey area. Hundreds of interpretations have had to be published over decades because of that.

jfklganyc wrote:
If he was at the controls drunk, he is a goner...no HIMS. Not my take or opinion, it is a criminal act and that is the way it is.


You simply do not understand the HIMS program or the scenario itself. The above is completely incorrect.

jfklganyc wrote:
If it was before that, he has a fighting chance for HIMS.


It's the only option. "Fighting chance" is up to the individual as they go through the process.

jfklganyc wrote:
This publicity doesnt help though.


The publicity has nothing to do with the outcome. These events are handled without regard to what the press thinks about them via rumors and second hand information.


Really?

What world are you living in where pubicity of a bad situation doesnt affect corporate decisions?

Tell me about that world.

Is it a world where unruly pax like the United Dr get their due or rewarded for beligerent behavior?

Is it a world with viral videos?

Does your world have social media and “shaming?”


I would like to read more about this fictional world



I know you are or we’re an airline pilot. Yes, corporate image is something that effects decision making, but the public has a short memory span. Remember the DAL pots that over flew MSP? Back on the line even though DAL had egg on its face. I believe as goboeing has eluded to, that Delta allows rehabilitation after an event. I think AMR and United also allow HIMS after an incident. Jetblue, and I believe Fedex, do not allow HIMS after an incident. This pilot will likely be involved in HIMS and will hopefully be rehabilitated. Now, it could be a long road including issues with FAA certificates, but it’s a road that has been taken before.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:33 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
goboeing wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
There is no grey area in aviation.

There are rules, limits, policies...very militaristic...for a good reason.


Once again you are posting incorrect information.

The entire book of regulations is a grey area. Hundreds of interpretations have had to be published over decades because of that.

jfklganyc wrote:
If he was at the controls drunk, he is a goner...no HIMS. Not my take or opinion, it is a criminal act and that is the way it is.


You simply do not understand the HIMS program or the scenario itself. The above is completely incorrect.

jfklganyc wrote:
If it was before that, he has a fighting chance for HIMS.


It's the only option. "Fighting chance" is up to the individual as they go through the process.

jfklganyc wrote:
This publicity doesnt help though.


The publicity has nothing to do with the outcome. These events are handled without regard to what the press thinks about them via rumors and second hand information.


Really?

What world are you living in where pubicity of a bad situation doesnt affect corporate decisions?

Tell me about that world.

Is it a world where unruly pax like the United Dr get their due or rewarded for beligerent behavior?

Is it a world with viral videos?

Does your world have social media and “shaming?”


I would like to read more about this fictional world

That's not fictional world; it's social media world.

Social media world: take a news story, spread it to as many people as possible, create uproar for a day or two, everybody screams bloody murder... until the next story takes over and this one is forgotten.
That world...
 
goboeing
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:56 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What I mean is that if the airline tried to add additional time to their duty day or shorten their rest period the pilots would throw a fit.


Additional time is added to crew duty days hundreds of times per day, 365 days per year. Flights are late for weather, maintenance, crews are re-routed out of their original trips.

Nobody is "throwing a fit."

TTailedTiger, what are you talking about?

TTailedTiger wrote:
They would say the airline was making them work in an unsafe environment by having to work without proper rest.


Again, what are you talking about? The federal regulations require a minimum layover length and a maximum duty day based on start time, legs flown etc.

The layover length is adjusted to give minimum rest time if needed.

If any crew is unable to obtain proper rest (fire alarm & evacuation from the hotel at 3AM...loud people running up and down the hall...etc.) they are required to call in fatigued if they are unfit for duty. Similarly, if at the end of a long day a crew feels too fatigued to continue safety, they call out fatigued.

Nowhere do we see crews claiming their airline is making them work without proper rest.

TTailedTiger wrote:
And they would have a point. But to do nothing when a coworker shows up drunk and is allowed to keep their job just shows what hypocrites they are.


I illustrated two posts back in great detail, the scenario of an international crew assembling in the lobby at 3:00AM home base time. I don't know what kind of screening process you envision between employees in that situation but I think you should re-read it.

TTailedTiger wrote:
They should be picketing and demanding that they be fired in the name of safety.


Well, nobody is picketing to demand that their coworker be fired in name of safety, because they know there is a system in place for these things.

TTailedTiger wrote:
This pilot had every opportunity to enter rehab before he made the bad decision to show up for work drunk. I hope he gets help for his problem but I never want him at the controls of my flight.


These events are likely cases of addiction and dependence. Every opportunity to enter rehab could be said for anyone who's had a single beer in their life. But 99% never have a drinking problem arise. That minority that does later on develop or realize a problem exists, doesn't just have it happen overnight. It may take some kind of wake up call to make someone realize. It's unfortunate, and I can't imagine being in the situation.

TTailedTiger wrote:
And I would never want to work with someone who cares so little about the safety of their co-workers and customers. Pilots know the rules when they start working on their private license.


Once again, it's not that someone doesn't care about safety, it's likely that their addiction and dependence is gradually overriding their judgement.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2559
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:01 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Really?

What world are you living in where pubicity of a bad situation doesnt affect corporate decisions?

Tell me about that world.

Is it a world where unruly pax like the United Dr get their due or rewarded for beligerent behavior?

Is it a world with viral videos?

Does your world have social media and “shaming?”


I would like to read more about this fictional world


There are numerous posts throughout this discussion pertaining to "this fictional world."

Viral videos, social media, publicity -- as others mentioned above, they are all real.

But just as real are the programs in place to handle situations like this.

And those programs do not feature amendments based on how many tweets an employee's event generated.

Re-read the above line as many times as you need until it makes sense.
 
mm320cap
Topic Author
Posts: 299
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 pm

zeke wrote:
mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*


I don’t think any group in Aviation is any worse than the general population, the statistics are something like 1 in 1000 will fail a random test, this is far lower that what you see on the roads. It is hard to compare with other industries as most industries outside aviation do not conduct random testing.

This person is alleged to have had a BAC of around 0.054 where the limit for aviation is 0.040. I would not classify this as being 3 times higher.

He was above the aviation limit however below the normal driving limit.


Finally looked it up. Appears the EASA limit is .02 or the National Limit, whichever is lower. The conversion for his 270 reading is a BAC of between .054 and .062 depending on what the Blood:Brearh ratio was. Hence the article saying he was 3x over the limit.

In the USA the new lowest driving BAC is .05 in Utah. This rule is usually considered to come into play for someone driving home immediately after drinking.

If we assume this pilot tried to get a normal 8 hours sleep and woke up about 1-2 hours prior to show time (depending on how long the van ride is), he/she had around 9-10 hours to metabolize down to a .054. That’s a big night out
 
N1120A
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:14 pm

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People get fired for saying something stupid or posting something stupid on social media these days. But apparently it's ok if you show up drunk to operate a transatlantic flight. What a world.


While he was over the limit at the time he was tested, he would have been under the limit by the time they started to taxi. Normally crew are at the airport an hour or more before departing. When he was tested it was a BAC of 0.054%, after an hour it would be 0.039% at the rate the body normally breaks it down.

In comparison you should look at the fatigue levels airlines routinely roster crew for and what that level of impairment would be equivalent to in BAC.


Your comment about fatigue is right on here. That is an issue I worry about a lot more than residual BAC, especially in this situation. Did the pilot abide by the 8/12 hour rule? If so, I'd like to know why the level would have still been at that level.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:40 pm

N1120A wrote:
zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
People get fired for saying something stupid or posting something stupid on social media these days. But apparently it's ok if you show up drunk to operate a transatlantic flight. What a world.


While he was over the limit at the time he was tested, he would have been under the limit by the time they started to taxi. Normally crew are at the airport an hour or more before departing. When he was tested it was a BAC of 0.054%, after an hour it would be 0.039% at the rate the body normally breaks it down.

In comparison you should look at the fatigue levels airlines routinely roster crew for and what that level of impairment would be equivalent to in BAC.


Your comment about fatigue is right on here. That is an issue I worry about a lot more than residual BAC, especially in this situation. Did the pilot abide by the 8/12 hour rule? If so, I'd like to know why the level would have still been at that level.


Having one glass of wine eight hours before a flight would be fine. But what if he had pounded six shots of tequila eight hours before flying? Probably not.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:51 pm

So many dirty little secrets that need to be exposed.

The first is that being air crew, either front or back, isn't that a good job. Many of those who are enthusiasts simply cannot comprehend how his can be. Everything is different when its your job. Life on the road, time changes, the health effects from cabin pressurzation and radiation, to say nothing of the stress/boredom.. ..it all adds up. I've long thought that pilots were compensated so highly based upon these factors, not their airmanship. Acknowledgement of these challenges also explains why many are so recalcitrant around contract negotiation time. In their mind, look at the sacrifices they've made! And they are partially correct.

Alcohol is ingrained in the flight crew culture. A few drinks at the end of the day quickly becomes a habit. Shhhh!
 
Ionosphere
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Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:54 pm

Shocked Delta actually canceled a flight. I feel bad for the FO, addiction is a disease
 
reggiet
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:08 pm

mcdu wrote:
All of the pilots defending this drunk. I have to ask. Do you operate your aircraft beyond your company limitation section? If you get a momentary overspeed due to turbulence do you write that up as required or scoff it off as “it was just a little over the limit”? Limits are limits be it an operational limit on your aircraft or being over the legal limit of alcohol for the flight you are about to operate.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: #Truth
Reggie in Austin
 
hmflyer
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2001 9:38 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:56 pm

SteelChair wrote:
So many dirty little secrets that need to be exposed.

The first is that being air crew, either front or back, isn't that a good job. Many of those who are enthusiasts simply cannot comprehend how his can be. Everything is different when its your job. Life on the road, time changes, the health effects from cabin pressurzation and radiation, to say nothing of the stress/boredom.. ..it all adds up. I've long thought that pilots were compensated so highly based upon these factors, not their airmanship. Acknowledgement of these challenges also explains why many are so recalcitrant around contract negotiation time. In their mind, look at the sacrifices they've made! And they are partially correct.

Alcohol is ingrained in the flight crew culture. A few drinks at the end of the day quickly becomes a habit. Shhhh!


I love my job. Never drink on duty. And make about $350K per year. SHHH. Its an awesome job.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:09 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
Shocked Delta actually canceled a flight. I feel bad for the FO, addiction is a disease


It's so puzzling that drunk pilots get tons of sympathy but not drunk drivers. Why is one to be pitied more than the other? I have sympathy for them right up until they check-in at the airport/get in the driver's seat.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14179
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:29 pm

It is very easy for all of us to say that other crew members shouldn't cover or should 'rat out' a fellow crew member who may be beyond the limits of alcohol content in ones blood to fly or work as cabin crew safely but that is very difficult in real life. They fear retribution if made a false allegation. I would presume in some countries with their culture (like South Korea) ratting out to the company if the pilot(s) who were working the next day was drunk and not meet the numbers by duty time, won't be easy and could put you in trouble.
Even if 0.0 by flight time, heavy drinking to the time cut off may still mean a poor nights sleep that can affect performance when on duty.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:44 pm

airtechy wrote:
I'm reminded of the former NWA crew who actually flew drunk, were caught, somehow got through re-hab ... possibly through the help of NW's managment.. , and at least one returned to flying. In fact, retired flying the 747 as I recall.


Yes that was the Captain Norman Lyle Prouse. I worked for NW at the time that happened all 3 did a stint in prison. John Dasburg the CEO of NW kind of went to bat at least for the Captain. Prouse admitted he had a problem and ultimately was rehired back as an instructor then was allowed to go back to line flying and retired off the 747. The other 2 pilots the F/O Robert Kirchner is a Captain at Atlas and the FE flies for American. While I do understand and can see giving someone a second chance for any other certificated employee other then pilots you have to seek help BEFORE you are caught. Once your busted your fired. I know a few guys who you could call functional alcoholics neither of them are pilots but neither of them come to work impared they know they can get randomly tested at any time and they won't put their jobs on the line and a pilot has not just a job but a career (had a NW pilot tell a bunch of us that one time that he has a career the rest of us have jobs) so I don't have sympathy for anyone who would put not only their career in peril but passenger lives too. Do your drinking at home if you can't then you better call in sick if you want to keep your career.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:48 pm

stratosphere wrote:
airtechy wrote:
I'm reminded of the former NWA crew who actually flew drunk, were caught, somehow got through re-hab ... possibly through the help of NW's managment.. , and at least one returned to flying. In fact, retired flying the 747 as I recall.


Yes that was the Captain Norman Lyle Prouse. I worked for NW at the time that happened all 3 did a stint in prison. John Dasburg the CEO of NW kind of went to bat at least for the Captain. Prouse admitted he had a problem and ultimately was rehired back as an instructor then was allowed to go back to line flying and retired off the 747. The other 2 pilots the F/O Robert Kirchner is a Captain at Atlas and the FE flies for American. While I do understand and can see giving someone a second chance for any other certificated employee other then pilots you have to seek help BEFORE you are caught. Once your busted your fired. I know a few guys who you could call functional alcoholics neither of them are pilots but neither of them come to work impared they know they can get randomly tested at any time and they won't put their jobs on the line and a pilot has not just a job but a career (had a NW pilot tell a bunch of us that one time that he has a career the rest of us have jobs) so I don't have sympathy for anyone who would put not only their career in peril but passenger lives too. Do your drinking at home if you can't then you better call in sick if you want to keep you career.


I never thought it was fair that the FO and FE got punished. In those days the captains were the skygod type and wouldn't have listened to any of the other crew members anyway. A shame that NWA would hire the captain back. He not only put the passengers in danger but he ruined the lives of two coworkers. That's unforgivable.
 
johns624
Posts: 2147
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:07 am

Flying is a great job but a lousy career.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7767
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:19 am

zeke wrote:
Eikie wrote:
In the country he was checked, the limit is 0.2, making it almost 3x... (For both flying and driving)


I thought it was 0.2 mg/L of breath which is equivalent to a BAC of 0.040%


Well he was 270 micrograms per litre, which is about .054% BAC
 
davescj
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:54 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
To a degree. Its also to an extent an ADA issue. Certain ailments, like alcoholism, can under certain circumstances be treated as a disability. A lot depends upon the diagnosis and how far the doctors and lawyers are willing to go, but in some cases it may be against the law to fire a diagnosed alcoholic. We had an administrator get drunk and disorderly at a school drama function, threaten (allegedly) some parents, and do it all in front of a school board trustee, and this was not the first time. What happened? He claimed an alcoholic disability, the law backed him, and he was merely demoted - back to teacher. He's teaching middle school, the last I heard. Before anyone starts union bashing, that wasn't the issue. The law was the issue. The school couldn't fire him due to ADA concerns. Believe me, we don't want him, the union doesn't want him, but we're stuck with him due to disability law.


Next time, call the police and have him arrested. ADA or no.....a record can cause termination. It can also (hopefully) cause the person to get help.
Can I have a mojito on this flight?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:53 am

Not at my school, though I would have called the cops had I been there. He was drunk and aggressive in front of a school board member at a school play witnessed by multiple parents but they still couldn't fire him. That's the state of the law in some places. We had one assistant principal at my school who was a drunk, just never on campus witnessed by me. He eventually did get help and is back to normal functioning, thankfully.

A criminal record can cause termination in some cases, true, but if the person is an employee in good standing when the incident occurs, the ADA as well as state law can sometimes swing into play. It depends in many cases which jursidiction one is in.
 
kiowa
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:09 pm

It seems quite difficult to fire someone for alcohol today. Does anyone know what happened to this drunk Delta pilot?
 
santi319
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:25 pm

mm320cap wrote:
https://nltimes.nl/2019/01/28/flight-schiphol-canceled-drunk-co-pilot

3x over the limit. Not good. Happens far too frequently in this industry. And DAL tries to say it was cancelled for a mechanical. *Shakes head*

When you think that every second almost an airplane takes off, it really doesn’t happen that frequently.

I mean in an airline you still have AN ENTIRE CREW that will most likely not feel comfortable flying with someone who is drunk.

If anything in my humble opinion it probably happened waaay more back in the days than now. When you think about the CRM and culture back then etc.

Youre safe.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1701
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:23 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
. The law was the issue.

The law is not the issue. The nitwits interpreting the law are the issue. Starting from the Judge, the jurors and probably the prosecutor prosecuting the case for not doing his job of effectively presenting the case, they should be fired and so should the teacher. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude (and interpret the law accordingly) that alchoholism/substance abuse/substance addiction is NOT the same as a disability (loss of a leg, being mentally challenged etc.). That alcohol addict teacher should be not be anywhere around kids NOR should this DL pilot be anywhere near a cockpit or the steering wheel of a car.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1701
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:33 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
Shocked Delta actually canceled a flight. I feel bad for the FO, addiction is a disease


It's so puzzling that drunk pilots get tons of sympathy but not drunk drivers. Why is one to be pitied more than the other? I have sympathy for them right up until they check-in at the airport/get in the driver's seat.

I don't have sympathy for them even 12+ hours [or whatever their mandated rest hours are] before they don their uniform and start their trip to the airport for check in & showing up in the cockpit. For that matter, that DL pilot in AMS was not on some holiday before showing up at the airport to ferry 200+ people back across the pond. He needs to be sober & taking rest to be more than 100% fit physically and mentally to execute a very demanding job of being responsible for 100s of people both in the air and on the ground. No sympathy here, 0 tolerance. Fire the guy and charge him to send a message. A car driver is caught and charged for drunk driving. Being an airplane pilot is serious business and responsible for 100s of lives so showing up for duty drunk even if the person did not get in the cockpit should be treated as FUI.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:40 pm

FF630 wrote:
Sad, I have a friend who was in rehab. She told me there were a lot of cockpit and cabin crew folks from three different major airlines in rehab with her. This was not the first time in rehab for some of them.

I wonder if there is a higher percentage of these folks who are alcoholics than in other industries.

How do you know a pilot is an alcoholic? They are a pilot. As a test engineer, I actually had training on detecting drunk people at work and the #1 job group caught drunk at work was technicians/machinists/mechanics, #2 was pilots.

Lightsaber
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:04 pm

The law is not the issue. The nitwits interpreting the law are the issue. Starting from the Judge, the jurors and probably the prosecutor prosecuting the case for not doing his job of effectively presenting the case, they should be fired and so should the teacher. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude (and interpret the law accordingly) that alchoholism/substance abuse/substance addiction is NOT the same as a disability (loss of a leg, being mentally challenged etc.). That alcohol addict teacher should be not be anywhere around kids NOR should this DL pilot be anywhere near a cockpit or the steering wheel of a car.


NOT A TEACHER - BOTH WERE ADMINISTRATORS. Seriously, please don't call someone who isn't a teacher a teacher. Its insulting to those of us who are teachers and do a great job every single day. Seriously, its about as annoying as the garish color I used to highlight my prior words!

And no, you're wrong. In a gut check, visceral level, I agree with you. However, interpretation of the law is the real key here, and the law more and more over the past few decades is to treat alcoholism as a disease. Hey, trust me, none of us educators wants a vice principal who smells like the Jim Beam distillery around kids. Its just that the moment he claims that his problem is an illness and asks for medical treatment, under the applicable law the employer's hands are quite often effectively tied.
 
747megatop
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:40 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
NOT A TEACHER - BOTH WERE ADMINISTRATORS. Seriously, please don't call someone who isn't a teacher a teacher. Its insulting to those of us who are teachers and do a great job every single day. Seriously, its about as annoying as the garish color I used to highlight my prior words!
I was just going by the fact that we went back to teaching. Anyways, "educator" if that pleases you. All i care is that he is part of the school and could potentially be around someone's (or my) kids.

Aptivaboy wrote:

And no, you're wrong. In a gut check, visceral level, I agree with you. However, interpretation of the law is the real key here, and the law more and more over the past few decades is to treat alcoholism as a disease. Hey, trust me, none of us educators wants a vice principal who smells like the Jim Beam distillery around kids. Its just that the moment he claims that his problem is an illness and asks for medical treatment, under the applicable law the employer's hands are quite often effectively tied.

Sorry, i disagree. That is where the judicial system has to step in to "interpret" the law correctly. For example, a patient just can't walk in to the doctor's office and claim he/she has a disease and demand a specific treatment/medication. The doctor's job is to put his/her foot down if that is not the case and refuse the medication/treatment. The problem is judges have no accountability and keep their job regardless however dismal of a job they do "interpreting"; here is just 1 example - https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/ethan ... index.html ;
Good judges with the balls would interpret the law correctly and establish a good precedent for future cases with a correct ruling.
Bad judges (like Jean Boyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Hudson_Boyd ) do a sloppy job, keep their job and set a bad precedent for future cases. In this administrators case, all it takes is a judge to throw out the claim made by the administrator of having a disease. If i show up at work drunk i will be fired on the spot..no questions asked. Every year we get a drug test done (all employees and all levels); we fail a drug test we get fired. End of story. Your history with the company is over..done deal..can't ever apply again for another position. If one claims alcoholism as a "disease" then good luck..sit at home, fix the disease and apply somewhere else!
 
goboeing
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
How do you know a pilot is an alcoholic? They are a pilot. As a test engineer, I actually had training on detecting drunk people at work and the #1 job group caught drunk at work was technicians/machinists/mechanics, #2 was pilots.

Lightsaber


So you, Lightsaber, are accusing anyone who is an airline pilot, of also being an alcoholic?
 
reggiet
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:04 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:33 pm

747megatop wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
NOT A TEACHER - BOTH WERE ADMINISTRATORS. Seriously, please don't call someone who isn't a teacher a teacher. Its insulting to those of us who are teachers and do a great job every single day. Seriously, its about as annoying as the garish color I used to highlight my prior words!
I was just going by the fact that we went back to teaching. Anyways, "educator" if that pleases you. All i care is that he is part of the school and could potentially be around someone's (or my) kids.


Sorry, i disagree. That is where the judicial system has to step in to "interpret" the law correctly. For example, a patient just can't walk in to the doctor's office and claim he/she has a disease and demand a specific treatment/medication. The doctor's job is to put his/her foot down if that is not the case and refuse the medication/treatment. The problem is judges have no accountability and keep their job regardless however dismal of a job they do "interpreting"; here is just 1 example - https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/ethan ... index.html ;
Good judges with the balls would interpret the law correctly and establish a good precedent for future cases with a correct ruling.
Bad judges (like Jean Boyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Hudson_Boyd ) do a sloppy job, keep their job and set a bad precedent for future cases. In this administrators case, all it takes is a judge to throw out the claim made by the administrator of having a disease. If i show up at work drunk i will be fired on the spot..no questions asked. Every year we get a drug test done (all employees and all levels); we fail a drug test we get fired. End of story. Your history with the company is over..done deal..can't ever apply again for another position. If one claims alcoholism as a "disease" then good luck..sit at home, fix the disease and apply somewhere else!


:checkmark: :checkmark:
Reggie in Austin
 
N1120A
Posts: 26494
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Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:22 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
N1120A wrote:
zeke wrote:

While he was over the limit at the time he was tested, he would have been under the limit by the time they started to taxi. Normally crew are at the airport an hour or more before departing. When he was tested it was a BAC of 0.054%, after an hour it would be 0.039% at the rate the body normally breaks it down.

In comparison you should look at the fatigue levels airlines routinely roster crew for and what that level of impairment would be equivalent to in BAC.


Your comment about fatigue is right on here. That is an issue I worry about a lot more than residual BAC, especially in this situation. Did the pilot abide by the 8/12 hour rule? If so, I'd like to know why the level would have still been at that level.


Having one glass of wine eight hours before a flight would be fine. But what if he had pounded six shots of tequila eight hours before flying? Probably not.


6 shots of tequila 8 hours before flying should result in 0.00 by the 6-7 hour mark.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
kiowa
Posts: 554
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Delta AMS-JFK Cancels for Drunk FO

Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:39 am

reggiet wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
NOT A TEACHER - BOTH WERE ADMINISTRATORS. Seriously, please don't call someone who isn't a teacher a teacher. Its insulting to those of us who are teachers and do a great job every single day. Seriously, its about as annoying as the garish color I used to highlight my prior words!

Sorry, i disagree. That is where the judicial system has to step in to "interpret" the law correctly. For example, a patient just can't walk in to the doctor's office and claim he/she has a disease and demand a specific treatment/medication. The doctor's job is to put his/her foot down if that is not the case and refuse the medication/treatment. The problem is judges have no accountability and keep their job regardless however dismal of a job they do "interpreting"; here is just 1 example - https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/us/ethan ... index.html ;
Good judges with the balls would interpret the law correctly and establish a good precedent for future cases with a correct ruling.
Bad judges (like Jean Boyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Hudson_Boyd ) do a sloppy job, keep their job and set a bad precedent for future cases. In this administrators case, all it takes is a judge to throw out the claim made by the administrator of having a disease. If i show up at work drunk i will be fired on the spot..no questions asked. Every year we get a drug test done (all employees and all levels); we fail a drug test we get fired. End of story. Your history with the company is over..done deal..can't ever apply again for another position. If one claims alcoholism as a "disease" then good luck..sit at home, fix the disease and apply somewhere else!


:checkmark: :checkmark:


If the disease can not be fixed you can run for public office.

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