seanpmassey
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:50 pm

ikarlson wrote:
MeCe wrote:
dik909 wrote:

Gimme a break. These airlines could learn a lot from Finnair. I traveled up into the Arctic Circle just last week, temps -30 Celsius. Planes still flew. No big deal..

Oh, and we didn't have a gangway.

To boot, at altitude temps reach well below -60 Celsius. I don't buy the "jet fuel freezing" argument for a moment.



There is a huge difference getting extremes regularly vs once 5 year. If you get these temp 5 time a year it is your routine. Think about Finland get a heatwave 45 Celcius. It is routine for dubai but I am sure that Finnair peps break down at that temperature.



Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.


Getting down to -30C (or lower) is routine for some parts of the world. People are prepared for it. They have clothing designed for it. It's not just putting on extra layers; you need to have the right clothing for those extra layers. That's not some of the locations that are dealing with cold today, where a typical cold winter is -10 to +10F.

The same goes for snow in Atlanta. It rarely happens,and when it does, you end up with absolute chaos because it grinds things to a halt.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:52 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
So what is Delta doing different at MSP and DTW? a total of 0 Delta flights have been cancelled at those two airports and only 35 flights are running delays. Its -28 in MSP which is actually much colder than at ORD and I believe DTW is -10. Does DL have some secret, innovative way to keep the ground staff warm and out of harms way?


You might want to check the flight boards again at MSP. There are over 100 cancelations already.


It goes to show how it's all relative and how most parts of the continental US can't handle this type of weather that routinely hit other places in the world. Take Winnipeg for example. It's currently -40C with a -50 windchill, yet not a single flight on their FIDS this morning is showing as cancelled and only a few flights are delayed: https://www.waa.ca/flights/departures

MSP is often similar to YWG. I'd bet most cancellations there are due to inbound aircraft being cancelled from someplace else.


Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.
Last edited by Dieuwer on Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
B764er
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:57 pm

burnsie28 wrote:
Considering the temperatures that a lot of these areas are experiencing can cause frostbite in less than 4 minutes, I would say that the safety of their people are more important. It's about the safety of those working the ramp rather than planes being able to fly in it.

Thank you burnsie 28. It gets downright brutal outhere. The equipment fails too and makes things a lot harder to do.
 
mozart
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:02 pm

I know of two European airlines that already over the past days didn‘t bring any more cargo into/out of ORD, as they felt that the loading/unloading would expose ramp workers too much. And that was before today‘s cold wave (those same airlines just cancelled their flights today...)

Would it be an idea to have flights that leave with hand luggage only? A bit drastic, but it reduces the number of people needed for baggage handling. That doesn‘t help tractor drivers etc but any reduction in number of people out there is helpful.

Flying MSP to ORD later today (on the last flight of the day). I have placed my trust in MSP and DL - which looks like not being too much of an issue - and ORD, which could be an issue.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:02 pm

ikarlson wrote:
MeCe wrote:
dik909 wrote:

Gimme a break. These airlines could learn a lot from Finnair. I traveled up into the Arctic Circle just last week, temps -30 Celsius. Planes still flew. No big deal..

Oh, and we didn't have a gangway.

To boot, at altitude temps reach well below -60 Celsius. I don't buy the "jet fuel freezing" argument for a moment.



There is a huge difference getting extremes regularly vs once 5 year. If you get these temp 5 time a year it is your routine. Think about Finland get a heatwave 45 Celcius. It is routine for dubai but I am sure that Finnair peps break down at that temperature.



Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.

And do any of those airports have 500+ departures per day? The problem is having crew outside all day with little in the way of indoor breaks.
 
mcogator
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:02 pm

I can imagine a flight from MSP-MIA, or vice versa, today with a temperature difference of almost 100°F, or 120°+F when considering wind chills. I know I'm a pansy when it comes to cold, as I wear 3+ layers when the temp dips to 50°F. All those extra layers people must carry on the flights between opposite ends of the temp spectrum today would be fascinating to view first hand.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:07 pm

Do all the posters here pooh poohing the cold weather and saying that Canada, Russia etc handle aircraft at these cold weather levels stop to realize that none of the airports in Canada outside YYZ or YVR or in Russia have anything close to the volume of traffic that ORD and MDW do? So in Yakutia where it is -50F a flight comes in, ground crew handles it, but the next flight isnt for an hour or more. Rampers in Yakutia arent out in the cold for hours on end. At ORD or MDW, the rampers are constantly handling one aircraft after another.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:21 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

You might want to check the flight boards again at MSP. There are over 100 cancelations already.


It goes to show how it's all relative and how most parts of the continental US can't handle this type of weather that routinely hit other places in the world. Take Winnipeg for example. It's currently -40C with a -50 windchill, yet not a single flight on their FIDS this morning is showing as cancelled and only a few flights are delayed: https://www.waa.ca/flights/departures

MSP is often similar to YWG. I'd bet most cancellations there are due to inbound aircraft being cancelled from someplace else.


Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.


Its the same as when it snows an inch or two and ATL is shut down for the day. Whenever a region gets extreme weather it isn't used it. Things grind to a halt.
 
CRJ200flyer
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I feel for outside workers. Brrr..

Ummm... Southern California is miserable too. Don't move here. ;)

To think a NASA scientist predicted a very cold winter. It was just time for a pause in sun spots:

http://www.wnd.com/2018/11/lack-of-suns ... scientist/

Lightsaber


This particular cold snap is caused by well-documented rapid stratospheric warming that triggered the polar vortex to break apart into multiple smaller vortices, unleashing cold arctic air.

On a separate note, up here in Wisconsin, we are still going with temp of -26 and wind chill of -59. So proud and thankful for our ground crews who work so hard to keep flights on time in this bitter cold. Even with gloves on, my hands were stinging after a 10 minute preflight last night. MSP looked like planet Hoth with the snow blowing like a river across the ramp.

The good news is it’s supposed to rebound the other way. Detroit is -4 today, but will be 49 F next Monday.
 
drdisque
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:37 pm

Interesting flighs. AA just sent out two B788's from ORD AA88 and AA1408, normally ORD-PHX and ORD-DFW, respectively to fly ORD-STL and then from STL to PHX and DFW. My guess is that they weren't able to fuel them in Chicago but they had enough fuel on board to dispatch them to STL. STL is reporting 3F right now, so much more manageable.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:38 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
TWFlyGuy wrote:
I have often wondered how feasible it would be to take flights in situations like this and say RIC-ORD has X people bound for beyond ORD. Send the aircraft to CLT/DFW and connect them there. I get capacity on the beyond flights may be an issue but if you can maintain some operational integrity to move those pax today it puts less strain on the system tomorrow and beyond. Especially being a Wednesday, there should be some capacity to connect people. Gate constraints, esp. in CLT for example might be an issue. What would be really interesting is to see AA/UA do some real outside the box thinking and contract with a St Louis or Kansas City which both have a lot of excess gate space to move some people there on a field trip (gate agents, fleet service and some maintenance) and manage a mini-hub there for a day or two. Costs might outweigh the benefits, but it would be really interesting outside the box thinking. Other constraints like TSA may be an issue as well.


There's probably no need to. Passengers who were scheduled to connect through ORD to other cities have already been rerouted via other hubs on existing flights. No need to spend tons of money and put a bunch of resources out of place to set up a temporary mini-hub in a city that's normally a small outstation for a one- or two-day disruption. Granted, it doesn't cover 100% of the cases (there are some cities that may only have flights to ORD and not to other hubs), but those cases aren't going to be worth the trouble anyway.

It may seem like a fun thought experiment, but the "outside the box" cliche is often more a euphemism for an operational and logistical nightmare that makes recovering from the disruption that much more difficult once you realize that now you have a lot of personnel and equipment out of place.


I get what you're saying as I've done a fair amount of route planning and scheduling myself but -re-routing people isn't as easy as it used to be either with the LFs carriers run at these days. That's why I initially mentioned using the ORD bound plane to go to DFW/CLT. The infrastructure is there for the most part even if you have to use some hard stands and OT for ramp & gate personnel. And I wouldn't imagine of proposing entire ORD banks be rerouted but if you took select flights from the major markets (BOS, LGA, EWR, PHL, DCA, CLT, ATL, MCO, TPA) and flowed them through DFW/CLT as a single later in the day bank to clear out some of the connecting traffic since you likely can't accommodate them tomorrow en masse...maybe there's some opportunity.
 
MeCe
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:49 pm

ikarlson wrote:
MeCe wrote:
dik909 wrote:

Gimme a break. These airlines could learn a lot from Finnair. I traveled up into the Arctic Circle just last week, temps -30 Celsius. Planes still flew. No big deal..

Oh, and we didn't have a gangway.

To boot, at altitude temps reach well below -60 Celsius. I don't buy the "jet fuel freezing" argument for a moment.



There is a huge difference getting extremes regularly vs once 5 year. If you get these temp 5 time a year it is your routine. Think about Finland get a heatwave 45 Celcius. It is routine for dubai but I am sure that Finnair peps break down at that temperature.



Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.


You did not get the point. If you complain about heat to an Emirati about 45C they will look over you and tell thats regular. Same as Canadians or Russians tell you -30C temp are regular. Their staffing, equipment everything is set to these temps.

And you will never be "fine" even you put as many as layers of clothing at these temps.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:53 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
ikarlson wrote:
MeCe wrote:


There is a huge difference getting extremes regularly vs once 5 year. If you get these temp 5 time a year it is your routine. Think about Finland get a heatwave 45 Celcius. It is routine for dubai but I am sure that Finnair peps break down at that temperature.



Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.

And do any of those airports have 500+ departures per day? The problem is having crew outside all day with little in the way of indoor breaks.


Excuses excuses.
If the problem is not being able to work for long hours outdoors, then the solution is to have multiple shifts.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:57 pm

I don't understand WN philosophy during this extreme dangerous weather event. They claim their a family airline and it's all about its people first yet they choose to Run a shoestring operation putting EVERYONE in jeopardy. Cancel all the flights in the Midwest cities let your employees ride it out safely in their warm homes.
This isn't Herb Airline it's definitely Profit before the people of Southwest today that heart is definitely just a fancy paint job today.
My heart goes out to all the employees forced to come to work during this deadly deep freeze.

Sadly Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:10 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Excuses excuses.
If the problem is not being able to work for long hours outdoors, then the solution is to have multiple shifts.


They're already doing that. I believe UA flew in additional staff from other cities to provide additional relief (which kinda goes against your theory about them just wanting to save money).

Believe it or not, it's not just about the airlines deciding things from an operational/financial perspective. Local authorities here in Chicago have been telling people to stay home unless you absolutely have to go outside. CTA is running, but struggling (equipment problems causing delays all over the place). Metra Electric is shut down. Schools are closed. People have personal lives they need to take care of, and those that do manage to make it into work still have to deal with the hazardous conditions outside.

Contrary to popular belief, Chicago winters don't normally get *that* cold. It's possible that the temperature today will reach the coldest temperature in the city in recorded history. Yeah, folks in further northern climates consider this T-shirt weather, blah blah, whatever. It's the same as when we laugh at Washington, DC, for shutting down over the threat of snow flurries. Airports further north have staff that are used to these kinds of conditions. People in Chicago simply aren't. Not sure why that seems to surprise people.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
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IPFreely
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:14 pm

United1 wrote:
DL doesn't seem to be able to operate out of ORD very well though...perhaps they should send some of their MSP/DTW people over there.

DL flights between ORD and LGA for the next 8 hours.
DL 3767 delayed
DL 3757 canceled
DL 347 canceled
DL 3813 delayed
DL 2192 canceled
DL 3804 delayed
DL 3806 canceled
DL 3786 canceled
DL 306 delayed
DL 3779 delayed
DL 658 delayed

P.S. DLs flights from ORD-ATL/MSP/DTW are not looking any better today.

Perhaps it's just the weather in Chicago is just that miserable and disruptive to operations? As UA and AA have hubs at ORD that might just have a bigger impact on them vs anything at DL being so superior.


DL isn’t superior, the claim that they have no cancellations at DTW and MSP is totally false. As of 2PM EST, Delta mainline has 33 cancellations including 14 at MSP+DTW. Endeavor and others are performing worse. And yesterday DL has 130 mainline cancellations, including, inexplicably dozens at ATL.
 
jcwr56
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:15 pm

The ramper's who showed up to work at ORD today deserve a big thank you for sure.

From what I'm hearing Fueling is the biggest issue. Between Swissport and Menzies with call off's and lack of operable equipment it's dragging a lot down.

ORD has about 24 more hours of this weather, so we'll see how things are tomorrow morning.
 
MeCe
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:26 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
ikarlson wrote:

Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.

And do any of those airports have 500+ departures per day? The problem is having crew outside all day with little in the way of indoor breaks.


Excuses excuses.
If the problem is not being able to work for long hours outdoors, then the solution is to have multiple shifts.



As you mentioned your own post, how it is possible ? Airlines or their contractors pay just above minimum wage for most ramp workers, if you work at these extrems and get sick or injured you dont get paid. So why show up for work ? They simply cancel flight thats all. And their bean counters can argue all day this is better for shareholders.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:36 pm

More Delta flights ex - MSP...

DL has 12 daily MSP-ATL flights.

The first 5 landed in ATL early.

2 more are in flight and on time

2832 is slightly behind schedule

2835, 1076 and 439 are all listed as being on time.

It is currently -15 in MSP with wind chill at -34, and currently -12 in CHI, same wind chill factor,
 
airzona11
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:51 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
ikarlson wrote:

Huge difference between heatwave and cold temperatures. When its cold outside, all you need to do is put couple extra layers of clothing, gloves, hats and etcand you will be fine. with a heat, even if you take off your clothes you still will be hot :) sorry, don't meant to sound like captain obvious. Lots of airports in Canada and Russia have -30C temperatures for months and life is not over there.

And do any of those airports have 500+ departures per day? The problem is having crew outside all day with little in the way of indoor breaks.


Excuses excuses.
If the problem is not being able to work for long hours outdoors, then the solution is to have multiple shifts.


Are you playing devils advocate for the sake of it? These weather conditions are uncommon events and cause disruptions. You don't run a business built to handle infrequent worst case scenarios. Delays and cancellations are how airlines cope. Multiple shifts are a non-starter when that means getting more people to and from the airport, when staffing levels are already strained because it is challenging to travel locally. There is not an economical way to have the proper clothing on hand to have ORD/MDW or any major airport at full capacity during unprecedented cold weather, as cold or colder as any where on earth.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:07 pm

mozart wrote:
I know of two European airlines that already over the past days didn‘t bring any more cargo into/out of ORD, as they felt that the loading/unloading would expose ramp workers too much. And that was before today‘s cold wave (those same airlines just cancelled their flights today...)

Would it be an idea to have flights that leave with hand luggage only? A bit drastic, but it reduces the number of people needed for baggage handling. That doesn‘t help tractor drivers etc but any reduction in number of people out there is helpful.

Flying MSP to ORD later today (on the last flight of the day). I have placed my trust in MSP and DL - which looks like not being too much of an issue - and ORD, which could be an issue.


Looks like Delta has canceled 2 of their first 3 MSP to ORD flights. The one that did depart had a two hour delay. Good luck!

Regarding flying with hand baggage only, I have seen a long haul flight depart with empty cargo holds before. The weather conditions were similar to today. The flight was 3 hours late and they still had not been able to get the containers positioned for the flight due to lack of ground handlers and equipment issues In the cold. The captain was 15 minutes from timing out for duty limits because of the delay and made the decision to fly with empty cargo holds and leave all the baggage behind. That is not an ideal situation, but avoided a cancellation.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:20 pm

mozart wrote:
Flying MSP to ORD later today (on the last flight of the day). I have placed my trust in MSP and DL - which looks like not being too much of an issue - and ORD, which could be an issue.


I hope you mean the last MSP-ORD mainline flight. Because the absolute last one is a Delta Connection flight and it’s been cancelled.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:40 pm

IPFreely wrote:

And yesterday DL has 130 mainline cancellations, including, inexplicably dozens at ATL.


Umm yeah, ATL was predicted to have snow/sleet yday morning. Ultimately they didn't but DL pro-actively cancelled some rounds between ~10am-1pm (when it was forecast to hit) and rebooked peeps on other flights. I actually think they planned it quite well. They thinned the operation at a time where it would have certainly created a ramp congestion issue. Turned out it wasn't necessary, but I still think they made the right call.
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FlyHappy
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:02 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

You might want to check the flight boards again at MSP. There are over 100 cancelations already.


It goes to show how it's all relative and how most parts of the continental US can't handle this type of weather that routinely hit other places in the world. Take Winnipeg for example. It's currently -40C with a -50 windchill, yet not a single flight on their FIDS this morning is showing as cancelled and only a few flights are delayed: https://www.waa.ca/flights/departures

MSP is often similar to YWG. I'd bet most cancellations there are due to inbound aircraft being cancelled from someplace else.


Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.


you seem a bit disconnected from some realities.

Lets talk about just how busy these cold weather airports in Canada, Switzerland or Scandanavia are... first - I'd suggest that none really exist in Switzerland, and the truly cold ones in Scandinavia are tiny, tiny little operations. Copenhagen, Olso, Stockholm even Helsinki are mild locations - the harsh weather is way north, where the population and airports are small.

Canada - sure... Winnipeg is far larger than those Arctic operations... and by my count, have a whopping 306 total arrivals/departures scheduled for today.
Let me repeat - 306.

Now for Chicago... hmmmmm.... per 2017 statistics, O'Hare averages 2370 movements daily.
So lets see, that's 306 for Winnipeg, and 1190 for O'Hare. We're not even factoring the 344 per day from Chicago Midway, nor are we factoring the much greater level of cargo ops/widebodies handled at ORD vs YYC.

At the big cold weather airport in the US - on their very worst days, with max cancellations, handle far more operations then the max amount cold weather airports do the countries you've cited.

As far as being cheap - hardly. flight delays and cancellations cost the US airlines, far, far money than cancelling flight saves.
The airlines still have to pay plenty of personnel, including overtime later on during recovery, there's misc compensation to pax, there's lost revenue on cargo, there's rebooking elsewhere.

Ground personnel have plenty of cold weather gear and equipment - that does not change the fact that its not possible to maintain high productivity at a massive operation like ORD in a subzero still air temp / -50 wind chill. What occurs in tiny airports elsewhere has no bearing.

"cry babies", indeed.
Last edited by FlyHappy on Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:08 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

And yesterday DL has 130 mainline cancellations, including, inexplicably dozens at ATL.


Umm yeah, ATL was predicted to have snow/sleet yday morning. Ultimately they didn't but DL pro-actively cancelled some rounds between ~10am-1pm (when it was forecast to hit) and rebooked peeps on other flights. I actually think they planned it quite well. They thinned the operation at a time where it would have certainly created a ramp congestion issue. Turned out it wasn't necessary, but I still think they made the right call.


That’s absolutely impossible. Jumbojet said when JetBlue cancelled much of its BOS operation during the last round of weather that they were an inferior operator and Delta was the supreme being of all airlines because they didn’t cancel anything! Delta NEVER cancels, didn’t you see? He pointed out that the MSP-ATL route was operating as scheduled so that must mean nothing cancels.

A solution to the ORD problem would be to employ Jumbojet onto the ramp. This will provide all the hot air needed for normal ops.
 
MNgopher
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Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:16 pm

IPFreely wrote:

DL isn’t superior, the claim that they have no cancellations at DTW and MSP is totally false. As of 2PM EST, Delta mainline has 33 cancellations including 14 at MSP+DTW. Endeavor and others are performing worse. And yesterday DL has 130 mainline cancellations, including, inexplicably dozens at ATL.


If you are referring to a comment I made earlier, to put things in context: I did say bulk cancellations.

Of the 14 mainline flights you noted cancelled out of DTW and MSP, at least 7 of them were ORD flights. Several were Buffalo flights, currently under a Blizzard warning. Wonder why those were cancelled.

MSP is showing 7 total mainline cancellation at the moment, with destinations of Winnipeg, Chicago, Fargo, and Atlanta. Out of 175+ mainline flights, give or take. Roughly a 4% cancellation rate.

Are there delays? Yes. Cancellations are minimal.

Again, not to shabby. Is it zero? No. But still very much a pretty full slate.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5395
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:46 pm

There are a few choice words I would like to tell the various posters postulating that a "little" cold weather shouldn't slow down operations and the folks on the ramp should just bundle up or whatever but I don't feel like getting banned right now. But I'm sure your imaginations can figure it out.

I went in to work today in St Louis, nothing like Chicago mind you and I was bundled up to the max and just about froze my rear end off walking across the parking lot.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1678
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:02 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I don't understand WN philosophy during this extreme dangerous weather event. They claim their a family airline and it's all about its people first yet they choose to Run a shoestring operation putting EVERYONE in jeopardy. Cancel all the flights in the Midwest cities let your employees ride it out safely in their warm homes.
This isn't Herb Airline it's definitely Profit before the people of Southwest today that heart is definitely just a fancy paint job today.
My heart goes out to all the employees forced to come to work during this deadly deep freeze.

Sadly Flyguy


WN now cancelled everything for today and Huge chunk for tomorrow.

Tomorrow extreme cold in the morning hours followed by 2-4 inches of snow afternoon and over night.
Hopefully that just call it and cancel everything for tomorrow also and resume mid day Friday.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3923
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:05 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

It goes to show how it's all relative and how most parts of the continental US can't handle this type of weather that routinely hit other places in the world. Take Winnipeg for example. It's currently -40C with a -50 windchill, yet not a single flight on their FIDS this morning is showing as cancelled and only a few flights are delayed: https://www.waa.ca/flights/departures

MSP is often similar to YWG. I'd bet most cancellations there are due to inbound aircraft being cancelled from someplace else.


Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.


you seem a bit disconnected from some realities.

Lets talk about just how busy these cold weather airports in Canada, Switzerland or Scandanavia are... first - I'd suggest that none really exist in Switzerland, and the truly cold ones in Scandinavia are tiny, tiny little operations. Copenhagen, Olso, Stockholm even Helsinki are mild locations - the harsh weather is way north, where the population and airports are small.

Canada - sure... Winnipeg is far larger than those Arctic operations... and by my count, have a whopping 306 total arrivals/departures scheduled for today.
Let me repeat - 306.

Now for Chicago... hmmmmm.... per 2017 statistics, O'Hare averages 2370 movements daily.
So lets see, that's 306 for Winnipeg, and 1190 for O'Hare. We're not even factoring the 344 per day from Chicago Midway, nor are we factoring the much greater level of cargo ops/widebodies handled at ORD vs YYC.

At the big cold weather airport in the US - on their very worst days, with max cancellations, handle far more operations then the max amount cold weather airports do the countries you've cited.

As far as being cheap - hardly. flight delays and cancellations cost the US airlines, far, far money than cancelling flight saves.
The airlines still have to pay plenty of personnel, including overtime later on during recovery, there's misc compensation to pax, there's lost revenue on cargo, there's rebooking elsewhere.

Ground personnel have plenty of cold weather gear and equipment - that does not change the fact that its not possible to maintain high productivity at a massive operation like ORD in a subzero still air temp / -50 wind chill. What occurs in tiny airports elsewhere has no bearing.

"cry babies", indeed.


He’s also incorrect about saving money on labor. Most mainline unionized ramp and CS workers receive their pay as if they were at work when the facility is closed or if they are instructed by the company to stay home.

United also flew in workers from other cities and put them in hotels and they are calling for another round of workers to fly out tonight to assist ORD.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:22 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
There are a few choice words I would like to tell the various posters postulating that a "little" cold weather shouldn't slow down operations and the folks on the ramp should just bundle up or whatever but I don't feel like getting banned right now. But I'm sure your imaginations can figure it out.


IKR?
I especially ground my teeth reading that other cold weather thread in tech/ops where there were several pilots (even based out of northern cities) making comments like "I just give my gloves to the F/O for the preflight check" ! As if that totaled the challenges of working in life threatening weather.

I stepped outside at sunny 9am, when the still air temp was *still* -28f. Spit against a concrete wall where my saliva froze solid on impact... not even a drip shape. It's damn cold. I pity the hard working rampers draining lavs, prying open aircraft hatches, keeping their minimally exposed skin out of of the howling wind - doing so in a dangerous and busy environment.


jetmatt777 wrote:
He’s also incorrect about saving money on labor. Most mainline unionized ramp and CS workers receive their pay as if they were at work when the facility is closed or if they are instructed by the company to stay home.

United also flew in workers from other cities and put them in hotels and they are calling for another round of workers to fly out tonight to assist ORD.


Absolutely.
These cold weather events are costly in all segments of society. Grocery stores close, gas stations close - all kinds of businesses close, for the safety of their employees and customers- by and large, employees are paid... well beyond those who are unionized, be it in Canada or the US. Its just a part of the local culture of the frozen North.

The idea that US airlines "Save money" on these massive events would be laughable if not so tragically ignorant.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 3923
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.


you seem a bit disconnected from some realities.

Lets talk about just how busy these cold weather airports in Canada, Switzerland or Scandanavia are... first - I'd suggest that none really exist in Switzerland, and the truly cold ones in Scandinavia are tiny, tiny little operations. Copenhagen, Olso, Stockholm even Helsinki are mild locations - the harsh weather is way north, where the population and airports are small.

Canada - sure... Winnipeg is far larger than those Arctic operations... and by my count, have a whopping 306 total arrivals/departures scheduled for today.
Let me repeat - 306.

Now for Chicago... hmmmmm.... per 2017 statistics, O'Hare averages 2370 movements daily.
So lets see, that's 306 for Winnipeg, and 1190 for O'Hare. We're not even factoring the 344 per day from Chicago Midway, nor are we factoring the much greater level of cargo ops/widebodies handled at ORD vs YYC.

At the big cold weather airport in the US - on their very worst days, with max cancellations, handle far more operations then the max amount cold weather airports do the countries you've cited.

As far as being cheap - hardly. flight delays and cancellations cost the US airlines, far, far money than cancelling flight saves.
The airlines still have to pay plenty of personnel, including overtime later on during recovery, there's misc compensation to pax, there's lost revenue on cargo, there's rebooking elsewhere.

Ground personnel have plenty of cold weather gear and equipment - that does not change the fact that its not possible to maintain high productivity at a massive operation like ORD in a subzero still air temp / -50 wind chill. What occurs in tiny airports elsewhere has no bearing.

"cry babies", indeed.


He’s also incorrect about saving money on labor. Most mainline unionized ramp and CS workers receive their pay as if they were at work when the facility is closed or if they are instructed by the company to stay home.

United also flew in workers from other cities and put them in hotels and they are calling for another round of workers to fly out tonight to assist ORD.


Speaking of... now I’m actually flying to ORD tonight to assist.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:26 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

Speaking of... now I’m actually flying to ORD tonight to assist.


stay warm and safe, my friend. I hope your employer compensates you well for your coming discomfort!

I was to transit ORD on Monday night, which I knew very well would be serious problem - fortunately I found another way to complete my journey and now I've been "enjoying" the arctic conditions ;)
 
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SuperGee
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 9:42 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:42 pm

mmo wrote:
Not surprising at all. Aircraft don't like to be shutdown and but to bed overnight in temps like they are experiencing now. You have problems with aircraft bleeding to death as the hydraulic seals freeze and start to leak. As soon as hydraulic pressure is applied you start to see the havoc the cold weather has rendered on the various systems.

Just before someone says, "It is colder than that at altitude", you are correct but the systems are up and running, the hydraulic fluid is also warmed up, the fuel is warmer as it's is also used to cool engine oil in many aircraft. On the ground, with power off, the aircraft becomes nothing more than a big piece of metal.


Note that both space shuttle disasters occurred in January in lower than normal temperatures, especially for Florida. I don't know if it's ever been proven that the cold temperatures affected the foam that damaged the Columbia's wing during liftoff but it definitely was responsible for the booster rocket rubber O-ring failures that caused the Challenger's destruction. I can remember watching TV pictures of the Challenger on the launch pad the night before the disaster. It was unusually cold for Florida and I think I even remember seeing some ice forming at some places on the launch pad. I thought to myself at the time "man, I hope they know what they're doing flying that thing tomorrow". As it turned out, it appears they didn't (although one Morton Thiokol engineer had tried to warn of the disaster).

Aircraft operate all the time in these kinds of temperatures in the Arctic, Antarctica, Northern Siberia, Northern Canada, etc. of course, but they have experience doing it routinely in those places, have the proper equipment to operate in extra low temperatures and can make the proper preparations and adjustments necessary.
 
DDR
Posts: 1636
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:55 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:

Speaking of... now I’m actually flying to ORD tonight to assist.


Stay safe jetmatt777! Let us know how it goes.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5870
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:20 am

FlyHappy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

It goes to show how it's all relative and how most parts of the continental US can't handle this type of weather that routinely hit other places in the world. Take Winnipeg for example. It's currently -40C with a -50 windchill, yet not a single flight on their FIDS this morning is showing as cancelled and only a few flights are delayed: https://www.waa.ca/flights/departures

MSP is often similar to YWG. I'd bet most cancellations there are due to inbound aircraft being cancelled from someplace else.


Indeed. The USA is the land of the cry-baby airlines, apparently.
In reality, it probably is a matter of money. USA airlines, as greedy as they are - are not interested in spending one dime more than necessary on extreme cold-weather gear and equipment. So, they rather cancel the flight, hang on the dollars for a couple of days to collect rate-fees, and then refund the tickets. Since the airlines ALSO don't have to pay their personnel if they are "not working", it is a win-win situation to the airlines.

Clearly, this is not happening in Canada, nor in Switzerland or Scandinavia. Because if that's was the case, those countries/areas would probably shutdown for 4+ months a year.


you seem a bit disconnected from some realities.

Lets talk about just how busy these cold weather airports in Canada, Switzerland or Scandanavia are... first - I'd suggest that none really exist in Switzerland, and the truly cold ones in Scandinavia are tiny, tiny little operations. Copenhagen, Olso, Stockholm even Helsinki are mild locations - the harsh weather is way north, where the population and airports are small.

Canada - sure... Winnipeg is far larger than those Arctic operations... and by my count, have a whopping 306 total arrivals/departures scheduled for today.
Let me repeat - 306.

Now for Chicago... hmmmmm.... per 2017 statistics, O'Hare averages 2370 movements daily.
So lets see, that's 306 for Winnipeg, and 1190 for O'Hare. We're not even factoring the 344 per day from Chicago Midway, nor are we factoring the much greater level of cargo ops/widebodies handled at ORD vs YYC.

At the big cold weather airport in the US - on their very worst days, with max cancellations, handle far more operations then the max amount cold weather airports do the countries you've cited.


It seems convenient you're ignoring Moscow. SVO/DME and MSP show it can be done at a busy airport.

At this point FlightAware shows 36 cancellations (75% of ops) by WN at MSP, and 11 by Delta mainline, 2%.
 
User avatar
Velocity7
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:27 am

Having visited Chicago this time last year in very heavy snow, I really can appreciate how the city (including the airports) handle these weather events - it really is quite impressive. Sometimes you need to step back to get some perspective....
Kudos to those who are out in that weather - I can't imagine how difficult it must be to work like that :cold:
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:29 am

DLX737200 wrote:
I was looking at https://flightaware.com/live/cancelled/ for today and noticed this:

Southwest has cancelled 591 flights
Skywest has cancelled 207 flights
Air Wisconsin has cancelled 191 flights
United has cancelled 129 flights
ExpressJet has cancelled 101 flights
Republic has cancelled 92 flights
Trans States has cancelled 85 flights
American has cancelled 83 flights
Envoy has cancelled 80 flights
GoJet has cancelled 50 flights

And it's only 7:19am eastern time. I know this weather has brought record low temps and windchills to the midwest but this seems a little extreme, doesn't it? For a system that doesn't have much precipitation, just really cold weather and wind, I can't believe how many flights are cancelled.

Thoughts?


Try standing outside loading the aircraft with freight and bags. Then wait for pushback. That is if the equipment doesn’t freeze first.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:34 am

MSP is used to the weather. I think most of the delays or cancellations will be because of incoming a/c.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:46 am

The big problem at ORD in addition to the cold is fuel. The equipment is freezing the equipment that is running is can not run at full strength. Some international carriers have been impacted both AA and UA have been impacted with both AA and UA having to divert quite a few domestic flights heading to Florida, Texas and the West Coast to airports like STL, BNA, DEN, TUL. UA had to divert HKG and PEK to SFO for fuel our options were divert or cancel. Both NRT and PVG were able to be fully fueled at ORD and operated nonstop. Airlines like AI, NH, JL and others have still haven't left ORD do to fueling issues and LH has canceled all operations at ORD for the day and NZ has canceled their AKL flight. I know UA, and I would assume AA have been tankering fuel into ORD on all flights coming from stations not impacted by the extreme cold.

While some people have been saying certain parts of Canada and Russia deal with this cold with out issues, -19 F to -27 degrees F is not the norm in Chicago even during the the 2014 Polar vortex it didn't get this cold for Chicago and many areas we haven't experienced cold like this in over 30-40 years. Meaning a lot of the equipment we use in Chicago doesn't work properly in this extreme weather. Take for instance if you live in Alberta Canada majority of new cars sold up there still offer block heaters pre-installed. Walk into a new car dealership in Chicagoland and ask to buy a car with a block heater already installed you won't find it. When you look at ORD's overall performance today and not "zero-in" on any one particular airline what you see is an airport whose infrastructure can not handle 1,200 plus departures when the temperature is as cold as it has been all day today. Even Chicago itself practically came to a halt today this didn't happen in 2014, in fact the last time I can remember the streets of Chicago being this empty was on 9/11/2001. But on today the City and the for the most part the state of Illinois has shut down.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:00 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
[
It seems convenient you're ignoring Moscow. SVO/DME and MSP show it can be done at a busy airport.


Hardly.
I was replying to Dieuwer who specifically cited Canada, Switzerland and Scandanavia (and yes, I'm well aware Finland isn't Scandinavia) - no Moscow, please note.
refer to my post in tech/ops section (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1414201&start=50#p21053451) to see that I well understand Moscow is a cold weather hub city, with its 844 average movements/day at SVO and DME with 643/day (again, compared to ORD @ 2370/day & MDW @ 344/day).

I don't pretend to know what the reliability is of the Moscow airports is during exceptionally cold/windy conditions (and I call 100% BS on those who claim that -10 to -25 still air is "normal" for weeks at a time in Moscow), but as I said before, they may be very good at it. Or not.

As far as MSP goes, I assure you, I am familiar with decades of its operations. In fact, I'm there right now; its the balmy part of the day. -17f . looking forward to -29 tonight, perhaps it'll touch -30.

I never said cold weather ops couldn't be done. I simply pointed out to someone that their analogs in Europe and Canada are quite off-base, and that you cannot dismiss the reality that an "at-capacity" type airport like ORD (hubs to 2 of the US3) AND MDW (basically largest hub of WN) are going to suffer badly in this kind of weather.

Don't forget that there have been plenty of cancellations at MSP today AND even Winnipeg (far, far smaller/less intense) has seen nearly every outbound flight delayed, often up to an hour. It's clear that even hardy Canadian ground crew are slowed down by the brutal weather.
 
User avatar
SaveFerris
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:42 am

Re: Cold Weather Cancellations in the US

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:16 am

dik909 wrote:
To boot, at altitude temps reach well below -60 Celsius. I don't buy the "jet fuel freezing" argument for a moment.


Jet fuel does indeed have published Freeze Points. It depends on the type of fuel but per our manuals they range from -40 C (Jet A which is commonly used in the US) to -60 C (TS-1), with many types in between those ranges. You’re also missing a few facts about systems designed to heat the fuel as well as the difference between TAT and SAT and the warming of the fuel due to skin friction.

While I agree that jet fuel freezing is normally not a reason or excuse to cancel a flight it is a very real operational concern.

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