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LondonXtreme
Topic Author
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How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:14 am

I have a friend who travels frequently between US and South Africa. Every time he chooses BA or VS and transit in LHR.

The interesting thing he figures out is that the flights are always packed with lots of Americans on both J and Y class, sometimes even more American than British on either LHR-JNB or LHR-CPT flight.

My question is that are those nonstop flight between UK and South Africa heavily rely on connecting passengers from the US?
 
EarlyLateORD
Posts: 127
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:57 am

OneWorld doesn't have a non-stop option to South Africa, so I would imagine a lot of Americans use BA to LHR and then down, it also allows Americans to go straight to CPT as there has been excessive fear communicated to them about JNB. I also think for many tourists the idea of breaking up the trip sounds appealing. I've done IAD-JNB and JFK-JNB nonstop in Y. It's tough! The last trip back we stopped in Copenhagen and did QR CPT-DOH-CPH. Btw, JNB is a perfectly nice airport. I once forgot my credit card at a convenience store inside the airport and the clerk ran down to the SAA gate where I was waiting to give me my credit card back!

Adam
 
royroy
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:02 am

Well they have both just increased frequencies to JNB so I presume it's going very well, especially after SAA dropping to one flight a day.

Cargo wise JNB is a huge route that's high yielding so will also help
 
SJOtoLIR
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:08 am

BA LHR-JNB 18x weekly is currently operating as 14x with 388 and 4x with 788.
I don't handle accurate figures about these load factors as well as how the demand of passengers is disaggregated, in terms of their citizenships: Britishs, Americans and so forth.
However, if BA LHR-JNB deploys two daily 388s every day, the load factor should be stellar.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
B747forever
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 am

Between multiple daily LHR-JNB/CPT, LGW-CPT and recently reinstated LHR-DUR, BA must be doing quite well to South Africa. The demand alone from the UK is large, and combined with all US-SA Oneworld pax funneled via LHR, BA won't have a hard time to fill all the flights.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
gpasternak
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:11 am

royroy wrote:
Well they have both just increased frequencies to JNB so I presume it's going very well, especially after SAA dropping to one flight a day.

Cargo wise JNB is a huge route that's high yielding so will also help


I'd have to agree as well. From memory SAA previously operated 2x daily to LHR ~circa 2012. One of which operated by an a346. I'm unsure of the exact history of CPT operations but remember SAA operating a CPT-LHR service as well. Surely ME3 has picked up some of these passengers but I'd speculate BA and VS as well given increased frequencies and seat counts. (BA 744-->a380)
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:26 am

London Gatwick - Cape Town
BA LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 777
MT LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 332

London Heathrow - Cape Town
BA LHR-CPT. 14x weekly with 744.

London Heathrow - Johannesburg
BA LHR-JNB. 14x weekly with 388 + 4x weekly with 788
VS LHR-JNB. 14 x weekly with 789
SA JNB-LHR. 7x weekly with 333

London Heathrow - Durban
BA LHR-DUR. 3x weekly with 788.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:31 am

SJOtoLIR wrote:
London Gatwick - Cape Town
BA LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 777
MT LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 332

London Heathrow - Cape Town
BA LHR-CPT. 14x weekly with 744.


Much of the CPT capacity is seasonal. For most of the year it's one daily BA B744 LHR-CPT.
 
LAXLHR
Posts: 453
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:23 am

Historically LHR-JNB has been one of BA's highest yielding routes. VS does very well. Shocked that SA is such a basket case, although I'm sure they do ok.
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO W7 WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
Andy33
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:50 am

And BA continue to have their trump card: the domestic and regional flights operated in/from South Africa by BA franchise carrier Comair. Fully integrated into the BA reservations system, BA livery, BA flight numbers, rather better than current BA shorthaul service standards. So they have significant feed at both ends of their London - South Africa routes
 
StTim
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:06 am

When I flew to Joburg on a regular basis a few years back there were not many Americans on the route. The US guys (and gals) in the project flew Delta to ATL.
 
a350lover
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:28 am

The "main issue" with the South African routes is the turnaround times at JNB.

One of the up to 3 daily services of BA flies back with a morning depature BA50 from Joha which arrives into Heathrow at 17:15h. The other two, which are the daily two flights, stay in JNB all day long. I'd say this is the case for IB, AZA, LH, VS...

Apart from KLM, are there any other EU airlines flying the whole pattern with a short turnaround in JNB? I am sure the business pax of this flight prefers to fly redeye flights so that they can maximize working hours and sleep on board through the night. Then you have to decide whether you fly the night sector to Joha or the return. KL flies the redeye back to Europe.
 
TC957
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:26 am

If SAA weren't in such a rotten state they would surely capitalize on the UK & US routes so much more. As it stands, BA and VS are saying thanks very much, we're doing great at your expense.
 
mutu
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:57 am

And don't forget BA has a franchise partner Comair (in BA livery/uniforms etc) with a decent network in southern Africa which feeds their traffic also. Fundamentally there are strong ties between UK and SA which make this route a strong performer
 
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frigatebird
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:32 am

Andy33 wrote:
And BA continue to have their trump card: the domestic and regional flights operated in/from South Africa by BA franchise carrier Comair. Fully integrated into the BA reservations system, BA livery, BA flight numbers, rather better than current BA shorthaul service standards. So they have significant feed at both ends of their London - South Africa routes

True, Comair is a very nice airline, have flown with them often when I was in the region. Really an asset for BA, indeed better than BA mainline themselves...

But SA should do better than just a single flight per day. They have their connections from JNB and CPT too, and should have feed from UA at LHR. Of course with the competition using efficient aircraft like A380, 787, it's difficult for SA to compete with their A346s. So the A333 is their best alternative. I suppose an A350 would enable SA to compete better and perhaps reinstate a second daily frequency. But I am of the opinion SA needs to be profitable with their current fleet before they invest in new aircraft.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
sxf24
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:15 am

frigatebird wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
And BA continue to have their trump card: the domestic and regional flights operated in/from South Africa by BA franchise carrier Comair. Fully integrated into the BA reservations system, BA livery, BA flight numbers, rather better than current BA shorthaul service standards. So they have significant feed at both ends of their London - South Africa routes

True, Comair is a very nice airline, have flown with them often when I was in the region. Really an asset for BA, indeed better than BA mainline themselves...

But SA should do better than just a single flight per day. They have their connections from JNB and CPT too, and should have feed from UA at LHR. Of course with the competition using efficient aircraft like A380, 787, it's difficult for SA to compete with their A346s. So the A333 is their best alternative. I suppose an A350 would enable SA to compete better and perhaps reinstate a second daily frequency. But I am of the opinion SA needs to be profitable with their current fleet before they invest in new aircraft.


SAA (and UA) prefers to feed traffic through FRA admnd MUC.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:42 am

I wonder if many oneworld flyers from the US would connect at GRU with the JJ flight. I've always had a fascination with the few S. Atlantic crossings.
 
evanb
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:32 pm

TC957 wrote:
If SAA weren't in such a rotten state they would surely capitalize on the UK & US routes so much more. As it stands, BA and VS are saying thanks very much, we're doing great at your expense.


I think it's more complicated than a direct comparison. SA used to rely heavily on LHR for European connections but the demise of BMI, the implementation of transit visas for many South African passports and the implementation of the APD meant SA switching nearly all their European connecting passengers to FRA and MUC. With the European connections out of the picture it meant only O&D traffic where they don't have the point of sale scope in the UK to the same extent as BA and VS do. They also don't have TAJV connecting traffic that BA and VS do. The only Star Alliance partner that prefer to connect passengers through LHR is AC, whereas UA, SK and others prefer on to connect on SA through FRA and MUC.
 
gunnerman
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:59 pm

evanb wrote:
SJOtoLIR wrote:
London Gatwick - Cape Town
BA LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 777
MT LGW-CPT. 3x weekly with 332

London Heathrow - Cape Town
BA LHR-CPT. 14x weekly with 744.


Much of the CPT capacity is seasonal. For most of the year it's one daily BA B744 LHR-CPT.

Yes, the 275-seat BA 772s (without First class) from LGW to CPT are winter-only from 15 December 2018 to 30 March 2019.
 
sw733
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:11 pm

LupineChemist wrote:
I wonder if many oneworld flyers from the US would connect at GRU with the JJ flight. I've always had a fascination with the few S. Atlantic crossings.


OneWorld Emerald here who frequently travels between the US (where I live) and South Africa/Namibia (business in RSA frequently, but I'm originally from Namibia and have family/friends there). I have never flown US - South America - southern Africa on OneWorld. In my younger days I did it once or twice because it was the cheapest option, but even then it was a hodgepodge that kept me in Brazil for a day or two. I have done TAAG between Brazil and Angola, and SAA between Brazil and South Africa, this includes doing some business in Brazil and then heading over to Africa for business or pleasure, rather than flying straight through and treating Brazil as a simple connection point.

I can't imagine anyone is really doing this simply to stay on OneWorld. I do it frequently via LHR, though, to stay on OneWorld.
 
shankly
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:09 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Yes, the 275-seat BA 772s (without First class) from LGW to CPT are winter-only from 15 December 2018 to 30 March 2019.


I took BA2040 back to UK a week or so ago, for no other reason than the CPT-LGW leg fare was superb compared to LHR, and it makes no difference to me whether I pick up my hire car at LGW or LHR. It was a very different crowd on board to the BA42/58 LHR runs. More families and generally a younger feel.

Came back on 22nd on BA43.....once LHR operator finally found some de-icer! Had the rare experience of a spare seat next to me....that doesn't happen very often

BA has traditionally run a 3rd seasonal rotation down here from LHR although that has not happened this year so suspect the LGW run is filling that slot
L1011 - P F M
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3041
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Re: How is BA and VS doing on South African market?

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:12 am

a350lover wrote:
Apart from KLM, are there any other EU airlines flying the whole pattern with a short turnaround in JNB?

None.
KL operates totally different in Johannesburg as compared to the remaining European airlines there.
They usually arrive in the morning and then leaving back at night, meaning more than ten hours at JNB tarmac, in average: IB MAD-JNB, AF CDG-JNB, AZ FCO-JNB, LX ZRH-JNB, LH FRA-JNB, TK IST-JNB, BA LHR-JNB, VS LHR-JNB and so forth.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"

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