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atcsundevil
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Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:05 pm

Please continue the discussion from the previous thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411781

✈️ atcsundevil
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:40 am

Finally monthly threads are back.!!
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:53 am

PM to lay foundation stone for Jewar airport on 25FEB19.
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:11 pm

IndiGo announces the launch of 1x daily TRV-CNN, 2x daily COK-CNN and 2x daily COK-TRV flights wef 31MAR19
CNN-COK-TRV-COK-CNN-TRV-CNN-COK-TRV-COK-CNN
These are the first ever flights between airports within Kerala
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:51 pm

unrave wrote:
These are the first ever flights between airports within Kerala


How so? There have always been intrastate flights in Kerala between COK-TRV, 6E currently has them too on their 320's. And AIX operates still some too I believe, even from CCJ.
 
bostrv
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:00 pm

IX does fly daily TRV-CCJ-TRV and I believe CCJ-COK-CCJ, one connecting to a DOH flight and the other to BAH.
AI flies daily TRV-COK-TRV, and 6E has ~10/week on the same route.
Kingfisher used to fly a TRV-COK-CCJ-IXE-GOI flight - I am not sure about the CCJ stop though.
and DN used to fly TRV-COK-BOM for a while.
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:04 pm

bostrv wrote:
Kingfisher used to fly a TRV-COK-CCJ-IXE-GOI flight - I am not sure about the CCJ stop though.


It was TRV-COK-CCJ-IXE-GOI-BOM on an ATR, and I remember that as my relative had taken that flight to get to CCJ from BOM back then.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:11 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
These are the first ever flights between airports within Kerala


How so? There have always been intrastate flights in Kerala between COK-TRV, 6E currently has them too on their 320's. And AIX operates still some too I believe, even from CCJ.

Between CNN and airports within Kerala.
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:19 pm

unrave wrote:
Between CNN and airports within Kerala.


CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:24 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
Between CNN and airports within Kerala.


CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.

No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:29 pm

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
Between CNN and airports within Kerala.


CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.

No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India


That's true for the northern part of the country, but Southern states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have always had decent intrastate flights, even in good old days of IC , so it's not really worth mentioning. It does sound lame (no offense).

It would exciting to hear that in say Gujarat or Assam.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:37 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
avier wrote:

CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.

No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India


That's true for the northern part of the country, but Southern states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have always had decent intrastate flights, even in good old days of IC , so it's not really worth mentioning. It does sound lame (no offense).

It would exciting to hear that in say Gujarat or Assam.

I don't see a problem as long as it is on topic. Feel free to ignore information that do not meet your standards.
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VTCIE
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:54 pm

avier wrote:
unrave wrote:
avier wrote:

CNN being a brand new airport is going to have all such new city pairs as "firsts", so still not worth mentioning that in regards to the states. No one mentioned their previous first flights as to Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Maharashtra.

No it is important because it is not often that you see intra-state flights in India


That's true for the northern part of the country, but Southern states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have always had decent intrastate flights, even in good old days of IC , so it's not really worth mentioning. It does sound lame (no offense).

It would exciting to hear that in say Gujarat or Assam.


Gujarat and Rajasthan have intra-state (if not inter-state) operations in the form of Supreme Airlines' 9-seater aircraft. As for Assam, SG's upcoming seaplanes will lead to a rise in the number of intra-state flights along the Brahmaputra.

That said, I'd like to see a PBD-JGA or BHJ-RAJ route some day. Gujjus might want to fly from Porbandar to Jamnagar instead of taking the bus or train. By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:17 pm

I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:21 pm

That was one of the most blatant cases of corruption during the previous regime. In a country where law enforcement has more teeth this should logically end in the indictment of PP, but this is India and this will all be forgotten if there is a change of government in May
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:54 pm

VTCIE wrote:

Gujarat and Rajasthan have intra-state (if not inter-state) operations in the form of Supreme Airlines' 9-seater aircraft. As for Assam, SG's upcoming seaplanes will lead to a rise in the number of intra-state flights along the Brahmaputra.

That said, I'd like to see a PBD-JGA or BHJ-RAJ route some day. Gujjus might want to fly from Porbandar to Jamnagar instead of taking the bus or train. By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.


Gujarat doesn't have any regular intrastate flights, not even from the one you mentioned of Supreme. It's funny Gujarat boasts of the most number of operational airports (i.e receiving some commercial flights from major airlines), but on the other hand they don't connect to each other within the state. Heck, not even to AMD (apart from irregular services of Trujets UDAN service to Porbander). I believe Deccan or Air Odisha had such plans, but they seem like they are not even operating properly from anywhere.
Regarding SG's seaplane ops, there's no recent word of it after that one time before when they made all that noise of getting them. Have they even finalized the orders for the same(?).
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:55 pm

From the ET article:

Investigation has revealed that discussions were held between India and UAE separately for Dubai, Sharjah, Abu Dhabi and Ras-al-Khaima.
So this statement implies that prior to that there was only one BASA with UAE and a policy change was made specifically for this. Is the point about the BASA true? That the separate one came in to effect only after 2008-09?

After the said meetings, the remand paper says, there was “increase in the seat entitlements for both the contracting countries and increase in points of call for foreign carriers”. It adds “the foreign carriers obtained more points of call each time causing loss to Air India (AI)”. Further, it (AI) could not utilise its seat entitlement in the optimum capacity, it adds.
This seems a little misleading at best. He's making it sound as if the seat increase was only given to the foreign carrier. If AI couldn't utilize the seat entitlement, that's AI's problem. AFAIK, 9W and AI would be the only two airlines flying to UAE from India. GoAir, Indigo, SpiceJet and Kingfisher wouldn't have been eligible to fly international in 2008-2009.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:05 pm

VTCIE wrote:
By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.


My best guess is places like Baroda, Junagadh etc., used to be erstwhile "princely states" so the ruler basically had them built for themselves. Plus a lot of them also double up as IAF bases of some sort, not necessarily fighter squadrons but even for transport squadrons. BDQ for eg., boasts of a large ONGC presence which fuels a lot of base-to-rig traffic via BOM.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:10 pm

VTORD wrote:
If AI couldn't utilize the seat entitlement, that's AI's problem.


AI couldn't utilize because Dubai's "independent" slot manager never gave requested slots. Also, Dubai never allowed change-of-gauge. Hypothesis at that time was AI could have DXB hub, a wet dream sold to India by PP.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:21 pm

VTORD wrote:
From the ET article:

Investigation has revealed that discussions were held between India and UAE separately for Dubai, Sharjah, Abu Dhabi and Ras-al-Khaima.
So this statement implies that prior to that there was only one BASA with UAE and a policy change was made specifically for this. Is the point about the BASA true? That the separate one came in to effect only after 2008-09?

After the said meetings, the remand paper says, there was “increase in the seat entitlements for both the contracting countries and increase in points of call for foreign carriers”. It adds “the foreign carriers obtained more points of call each time causing loss to Air India (AI)”. Further, it (AI) could not utilise its seat entitlement in the optimum capacity, it adds.
This seems a little misleading at best. He's making it sound as if the seat increase was only given to the foreign carrier. If AI couldn't utilize the seat entitlement, that's AI's problem. AFAIK, 9W and AI would be the only two airlines flying to UAE from India. GoAir, Indigo, SpiceJet and Kingfisher wouldn't have been eligible to fly international in 2008-2009.

One of the major reasons why AI couldn't utilise its seats was that unlike for EK, it received no feed from DXB which could be routed to western countries.
Basically, much more seats were allocated than required for P2P traffic.

These 2 docs suggest that indeed there were only two agreements with UAE till 2007, one for Dubai and one for rest.
http://www.dgca.nic.in/bilateral/mou_UAE.pdf
http://www.dgca.nic.in/bilateral/uae0507.pdf

This document says that in 2006 India refused to increase seat allotments until all seat entitlements with UAE are streamlined
http://www.dgca.nic.in/bilateral/mou_uae(sharjah).pdf
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:41 pm

unrave wrote:
PM to lay foundation stone for Jewar airport on 25FEB19.


What's with laying the foundation stone? Is this primarily in Indian culture?
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:49 pm

"ED special prosecutor Davinder Pal Singh said Talwar’s custody is needed to ascertain his role in “association with the bilateral air service talks and the inroads made by him to influence the decisions”. He added “role of key persons and their modus operandi” needs to be extracted from Talwar. He claimed that the agency has received “voluminous incriminating material” against Talwar."

So, how do they intend to "extract" the information from Talwar? Does India allow torture or intimidation? If not, Talwar could choose to remain silent.

Second, why do Indian newspapers always refer to "modus operandi" when they can simply say "method" or "process" or "procedure"
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:52 pm

edealinfo wrote:
"ED special prosecutor Davinder Pal Singh said Talwar’s custody is needed to ascertain his role in “association with the bilateral air service talks and the inroads made by him to influence the decisions”. He added “role of key persons and their modus operandi” needs to be extracted from Talwar. He claimed that the agency has received “voluminous incriminating material” against Talwar."

So, how do they intend to "extract" the information from Talwar? Does India allow torture or intimidation? If not, Talwar could choose to remain silent.

Second, why do Indian newspapers always refer to "modus operandi" when they can simply say "method" or "process" or "procedure"


Internal workings of an investigative agency remain top secrets and no one would be able to answer that.

But modus operandi is specifically used for relating to crime.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:53 pm

anshabhi wrote:
I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms


So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.

Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:55 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Internal workings of an investigative agency remain top secrets


Aaah, the often used euphemism for torture
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:49 pm

edealinfo wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms


So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.

Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.


The culprits must be punished.

Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:59 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
I don't think this has received enough attention... ED has found conclusive evidence of kickbacks given by EK and QR for bilaterals https://m.economictimes.com/news/politi ... 776628.cms


So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.

Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.


The culprits must be punished.

Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.

You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.

Please also consider a bilateral is more than aviation. India benefits with other trade with the mid-East. The countries on the other side won't agree to the punitive measures. Legally, it is for each country to ensure its own diplomats are not bribed.

As already noted, to the UAE, both sides are benefitting as the rights are maxed out. What is desired right now is Dubai prime time slots. Those wouldn't be traded for for service to a random UAE city. Ironically, little if any damage was done by the bribes.

If stringent restrictions were placed on transfer passengers, Dubai would invoke their bilateral rights to revert to the previous bilateral.

What needs to happen is a fair expanded bilateral be drawn up.

Lightsaber
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unnayan
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.

Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.


The culprits must be punished.

Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.

You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.

Please also consider a bilateral is more than aviation. India benefits with other trade with the mid-East. The countries on the other side won't agree to the punitive measures. Legally, it is for each country to ensure its own diplomats are not bribed.

As already noted, to the UAE, both sides are benefitting as the rights are maxed out. What is desired right now is Dubai prime time slots. Those wouldn't be traded for for service to a random UAE city. Ironically, little if any damage was done by the bribes.

If stringent restrictions were placed on transfer passengers, Dubai would invoke their bilateral rights to revert to the previous bilateral.

What needs to happen is a fair expanded bilateral be drawn up.

Lightsaber


It still brings forward unfair business means opted by the carriers. Diplomats took bribe, but if the company officials offered them, aren't they criminals too?
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Lightsaber


I don't think this is true. US, UK etc., don't sign individual treaties for the sheikdoms within the UAE; it is for the country as a whole. In my opinion, the UAE wants India to negotiate for rights to individual states, rather than the whole, in an attempt to "Divide and Rule" making it more favorable from their standpoint.

Here are my suggestions for a short term solution:

1) Freeze existing bilateral rights for 3 years or until the ratio of Origin to Destination (O & D) to transfer traffic increases to X%. Freezing capacity will also improve the margins for existing Indian carriers.

2) Given the freeze, provide a special dispensation -- Kannur Airport should be open skies so that Malayalis (who form the bulk of the Indian workforce in the UAE) can return home to their spanking new airport in an airline of their choice.

3) When the new Goa airport is operationalized, that airport should also come under open skies to encourage carriers to bring passengers to what is largely a pure tourist destination. Also, the new Amaravati airport (Hyderabad state) should get open skies to help out a new State capital.

4) For #2 and #3 to be effective, the UAE carriers must allow consolidation of all bi-lateral traffic rights among the sheikdoms so that Indian carriers can fly to any UAE airport of their choice using the existing bilateral rights (maybe this will lead to some India - AUH flights being recast to India - DXB flights, which are more profitable.)

5) The open skies under #2 and #3 should be extended to all countries in the world (including Qatar, Oman, etc). This will serve as a demonstration program of whether open skies is beneficial to a host country and a study should be undertaken to test that theory.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:

So, what is the remedy if bribes were found to be paid. Would the air rights be canceled? It is a little too late for that now because of almost 100% of the bilaterals are used by both Indian and UAE carriers and canceling the air rights would cause tremendous inconvenience to passengers.

Perhaps they could impose a forward-thinking penalty and just freeze rights between the 2 countries for 3 years to serve as a remedy.


The culprits must be punished.

Also, UAE bilaterals should be immediately combined into one, and stringent restrictions should be placed on transferring most pax to other countries. Something like, you can carry upto 20% transit pax but your entire business model shouln't be based on it.

You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.

Please also consider a bilateral is more than aviation. India benefits with other trade with the mid-East. The countries on the other side won't agree to the punitive measures. Legally, it is for each country to ensure its own diplomats are not bribed.

As already noted, to the UAE, both sides are benefitting as the rights are maxed out. What is desired right now is Dubai prime time slots. Those wouldn't be traded for for service to a random UAE city. Ironically, little if any damage was done by the bribes.

If stringent restrictions were placed on transfer passengers, Dubai would invoke their bilateral rights to revert to the previous bilateral.

What needs to happen is a fair expanded bilateral be drawn up.

Lightsaber


I disagree. The bribes were devastating for indian aviation. You had the ME3 basically dumping capacity to India. The ME3 were always just ahead of the supply curve. Meaning Indian carriers never had an environment where fares rose to allow them to fly profitably. Looking at the connectivity between India and the west, you would think Indians just don’t fly to the US/Canada etc. In reality it was on the backs of India that the ME3 grew their business. It is only because the bilaterals haven’t been growing that were are finally seeing new nonstop international flights out of India. EK could very easily reallocate their current seats to better connect DXB with India. Canceling one of their 5 wide bodies to BOM could open up two new cities in India (with narrow bodies).
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
You are advocating a unilateral decision which voids a bilateral. The UAE is city states, so each city reserves rights. Dubai and Abu Dhabi would not agree as Abu Dhabi has historically reserved rights for itself.
Lightsaber


I don't think this is true. US, UK etc., don't sign individual treaties for the sheikdoms within the UAE; it is for the country as a whole. In my opinion, the UAE wants India to negotiate for rights to individual states, rather than the whole, in an attempt to "Divide and Rule" making it more favorable from their standpoint.

Here are my suggestions for a short term solution:

1) Freeze existing bilateral rights for 3 years or until the ratio of Origin to Destination (O & D) to transfer traffic increases to X%. Freezing capacity will also improve the margins for existing Indian carriers.

2) Given the freeze, provide a special dispensation -- Kannur Airport should be open skies so that Malayalis (who form the bulk of the Indian workforce in the UAE) can return home to their spanking new airport in an airline of their choice.

3) When the new Goa airport is operationalized, that airport should also come under open skies to encourage carriers to bring passengers to what is largely a pure tourist destination. Also, the new Amaravati airport (Hyderabad state) should get open skies to help out a new State capital.

4) For #2 and #3 to be effective, the UAE carriers must allow consolidation of all bi-lateral traffic rights among the sheikdoms so that Indian carriers can fly to any UAE airport of their choice using the existing bilateral rights (maybe this will lead to some India - AUH flights being recast to India - DXB flights, which are more profitable.)

5) The open skies under #2 and #3 should be extended to all countries in the world (including Qatar, Oman, etc). This will serve as a demonstration program of whether open skies is beneficial to a host country and a study should be undertaken to test that theory.

US and UK have open skies and free trade agreements. I agree that could be done India/UAE as a whole.

The bilateral rights have been frozen since 2007. If a mutually beneficial deal can be struck the bilateral will be amended, otherwise no. Since Dubai can veto anything not in it's favor, setting a cap on transfers is unlikely.

If there is a two way open skies, that would be great. However, Dubai was founded as a Wayport. They will resist a transfer cap.Until then, the two Emirates with veto (Dubai and Abu Dhabi) would use it. The UK/US deals we're good for all the city states, so all agreed to be bound.

Has everyone read Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive Tree?". If not, simple is trade treaties look forward. Sides demanding payback for prior offenses don't happen.

All UAE bilaterals are full. Both sides. So we'll see. What Indian carriers want mostly is access to DXB. EK/Dubai knows this and are negotiating accordingly.

Since Dubai wants air service rights more than anything, they'll use that veto to shape negotiations. This is why India had to negotiate individually, Abu Dhabi and Dubai we're vetoing anything they each didn't like.

Now the idea of individual airports becoming freeports would appeal. The only question is DXB slots (every other UAE airport is open). I'm sure DWC could be ruled a Freeport.

Lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:43 pm

I sincerely doubt India can restrict connecting traffic percentage. Emirates connecting traffic is more than 66% and QR close to 81%. These percentages are increasing with BASA cap.

UAE-India BASA is 180,000/week seats, UAE-US open skies is 50,000/week. I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:15 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.


Not if it is limited open skies restricted to Kannur, new Goa airport, and Amaravati.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
I sincerely doubt India can restrict connecting traffic percentage. Emirates connecting traffic is more than 66% and QR close to 81%. These percentages are increasing with BASA cap.

UAE-India BASA is 180,000/week seats, UAE-US open skies is 50,000/week. I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.


I’m shocked the percentages are increasing given the seat cap. I would think at some point the pressure for seats to DXB would mean EK can make more money selling India-DXB then India-DXB-US. I guess EK is under even greater pressure to fill their global network. Hopefully fares india-DXB go up and Indian carriers make money (they fares usually seem cheap to me)
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:30 am

This is despite a virtual cap on bilaterals since 2014. Not a single seat has been granted to ME3 and SQ during the present regime.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:35 am

A businessman from a village near Coimbatore takes 120 seniors from village on their maiden flight journey
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... atsApp.com
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:45 am

unrave wrote:
A businessman from a village near Coimbatore takes 120 seniors from village on their maiden flight journey
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... atsApp.com


The people were blessed to have someone like Mr. Ravikumar in their village . It's really heart warming when you see senior citizens fulfilling their wish of flying be it because of UDAN or angels like him .
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
VTCIE
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:01 pm

avier wrote:
VTCIE wrote:

Gujarat and Rajasthan have intra-state (if not inter-state) operations in the form of Supreme Airlines' 9-seater aircraft. As for Assam, SG's upcoming seaplanes will lead to a rise in the number of intra-state flights along the Brahmaputra.

That said, I'd like to see a PBD-JGA or BHJ-RAJ route some day. Gujjus might want to fly from Porbandar to Jamnagar instead of taking the bus or train. By the way, why were so many airports built in Gujarat? Just for feeding to AMD and BOM? We don't see important 3rd-tier cities like Cuttack having their own airports because of Cuttack's proximity to BBI, so when Gujarat has so many airports, airlines might as well start some intra-state routes. Air Deccan 2.0 has done this with some success in Maharashtra and eastern India, but it hasn't been too successful, and it has ignored Gujarat entirely.


Gujarat doesn't have any regular intrastate flights, not even from the one you mentioned of Supreme. It's funny Gujarat boasts of the most number of operational airports (i.e receiving some commercial flights from major airlines), but on the other hand they don't connect to each other within the state. Heck, not even to AMD (apart from irregular services of Trujets UDAN service to Porbander). I believe Deccan or Air Odisha had such plans, but they seem like they are not even operating properly from anywhere.
Regarding SG's seaplane ops, there's no recent word of it after that one time before when they made all that noise of getting them. Have they even finalized the orders for the same(?).

Sorry! I meant Supreme DOES have intER-state flights between GJ and RJ, but there are NO intra-state flights. I got mixed up. Apologies.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
JOYA380B747
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:04 pm

A new Private jet terminal is in the works at DEL, and is scheduled to start before this year's election month. As per this article, it is situated next to taxiway Tango north of Rwy 29 which means it is coming up somewhere close to the Centaur hotel. Has anybody got more details on this?

https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi-ne ... e2pnN.html
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:27 pm

JOYA380B747 wrote:
A new Private jet terminal is in the works at DEL, and is scheduled to start before this year's election month. As per this article, it is situated next to taxiway Tango north of Rwy 29 which means it is coming up somewhere close to the Centaur hotel. Has anybody got more details on this?

https://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi-ne ... e2pnN.html


Very strange. I am also hearing about it for the first time, and I couldn't find any info related to it on AAI/DIAL/GMR websites. No tenders, no news articles, nothing .. Thanks for sharing!

Even the mentioned company Martin Consulting LLC doesn't have a website and this is all I could find:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-martin-59396838

One helpful article:
https://www.newdelhiairport.in/delhi-ai ... ights.aspx
 
vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:57 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I sincerely doubt India can restrict connecting traffic percentage. Emirates connecting traffic is more than 66% and QR close to 81%. These percentages are increasing with BASA cap.

UAE-India BASA is 180,000/week seats, UAE-US open skies is 50,000/week. I don't think India can afford open skies with UAE, they will wipe out all Indian carriers.


I’m shocked the percentages are increasing given the seat cap. I would think at some point the pressure for seats to DXB would mean EK can make more money selling India-DXB then India-DXB-US. I guess EK is under even greater pressure to fill their global network. Hopefully fares india-DXB go up and Indian carriers make money (they fares usually seem cheap to me)


Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:26 pm

unrave wrote:
This is despite a virtual cap on bilaterals since 2014. Not a single seat has been granted to ME3 and SQ during the present regime.


What's the Government's beef with Singapore???? Maybe it is because Singapore has open skies to many Indian 2nd tier cities?
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:33 pm

edealinfo wrote:

What's the Government's beef with Singapore???? Maybe it is because Singapore has open skies to many Indian 2nd tier cities?

Singapore is basically the Dubai of the east for connecting traffic
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:36 pm

vadodara wrote:

Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.


The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
devmapper
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:58 pm

lightsaber wrote:
US and UK have open skies and free trade agreements. I agree that could be done India/UAE as a whole.

The bilateral rights have been frozen since 2007. If a mutually beneficial deal can be struck the bilateral will be amended, otherwise no. Since Dubai can veto anything not in it's favor, setting a cap on transfers is unlikely.

If there is a two way open skies, that would be great. However, Dubai was founded as a Wayport. They will resist a transfer cap.Until then, the two Emirates with veto (Dubai and Abu Dhabi) would use it. The UK/US deals we're good for all the city states, so all agreed to be bound.

Has everyone read Friedman's "The Lexus and the Olive Tree?". If not, simple is trade treaties look forward. Sides demanding payback for prior offenses don't happen.

All UAE bilaterals are full. Both sides. So we'll see. What Indian carriers want mostly is access to DXB. EK/Dubai knows this and are negotiating accordingly.

Since Dubai wants air service rights more than anything, they'll use that veto to shape negotiations. This is why India had to negotiate individually, Abu Dhabi and Dubai we're vetoing anything they each didn't like.

Now the idea of individual airports becoming freeports would appeal. The only question is DXB slots (every other UAE airport is open). I'm sure DWC could be ruled a Freeport.

Lightsaber


UK-US "special relationship" is nowhere close the India-Individual sheikdom relationships. As you have pointed out many times, bilaterals are not just ASAs. There are a number of strategic concerns with Dubai as a gateway (not just aviation-wise) for India to the West. Most of India's export traffic to the EU, which as a bloc is one of India's major trading partner, is reexported via Dubai. Most the internet traffic to Europe and Africa gets routed through Dubai. This makes Dubai a single chokepoint, which is perhaps why India is looking at Chabahar port as an alternate for those countries who have relationships with the Iranian government. Dubai's recent policies towards nativism and lack of labor standards, while not as extreme as Qatar or Saudi Arabia, also raises questions, especially when considering the red carpet generally rolled out to Western expats. Not to mention Dubai's banking sector has had no qualms about working with terrorist groups, many of which either target India directly or foment trouble for India's neighbors like Bangladesh.

I think India, for the time being, is quite happy to have bilaterals with individual sheikhdoms, since that allows them to prioritize their relationship with Abu Dhabi over Dubai and Sharjah, especially considering the investments made by Abu Dhabi, not only in India's economy, but also in India's Strategic Petroleum Reserve. It would be foolish for India not to maintain status quo with Dubai and Sharjah, especially when Abu Dhabi has shown a willingness to work with India's concerns. Considering the gravitational pull of India's economy in South and South-west Asia, use a carrot-and-stick policy by economically incentivizing the sheikhdom that wants to work with India by negotiating better bilaterals, while refusing to negotiate better bilaterals for sheikhdoms that do not.
 
devmapper
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:07 pm

binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.


The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)

Is there a difference in mindset for Indians living on the (US) West Coast vs the East Coast? Perhaps the pattern of immigration could point to why AI's DEL-SFO flight is profitable enough for AI to fly more than daily frequencies while EWR remains a problem child, and IAD presumably has never been profitable enough for AI to consider increasing frequencies to daily. I'm assuming the ORD and JFK flights, while not being profitable are able to cover their costs due to some connecting traffic.

It's a shame we'd never know what a UA-AI codeshare could have achieved. I think in 15-20 years, by the time the US-India travel market is as well developed as the US-China market is currently, either UA, or more likely AI is going to cease existence.
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:11 pm

devmapper wrote:
binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.


The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)

Is there a difference in mindset for Indians living on the (US) West Coast vs the East Coast? Perhaps the pattern of immigration could point to why AI's DEL-SFO flight is profitable enough for AI to fly more than daily frequencies while EWR remains a problem child, .


EWR India for UA has been doing quite well and I'm sure the 77W has been put because of good connections at BOM end.
My main motto is to prove that people actually "like " to connect through DEL /BOM as much as they like to do via Middle East.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:19 pm

devmapper wrote:
binayak wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Or it could mean that more Indian's are happy to fly so long as it is not thru BOM or DEL hub.


The above statement has been proved wrong by Indian carriers themselves. (AI wouldn't have flown 9 weekly flights to SFO had people avoided connection through DEL)

Is there a difference in mindset for Indians living on the (US) West Coast vs the East Coast? Perhaps the pattern of immigration could point to why AI's DEL-SFO flight is profitable enough for AI to fly more than daily frequencies while EWR remains a problem child, and IAD presumably has never been profitable enough for AI to consider increasing frequencies to daily. I'm assuming the ORD and JFK flights, while not being profitable are able to cover their costs due to some connecting traffic.

It's a shame we'd never know what a UA-AI codeshare could have achieved. I think in 15-20 years, by the time the US-India travel market is as well developed as the US-China market is currently, either UA, or more likely AI is going to cease existence.

West coast, and more specifically California has India like weather and surely it's among the top choices for Indians any day. Also, most tech is centered around west coast while east coast is more about business,and Indians in US are majorly techies
 
devmapper
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:26 pm

binayak wrote:
EWR India for UA has been doing quite well and I'm sure the 77W has been put because of good connections at BOM end.
My main motto is to prove that people actually "like " to connect through DEL /BOM as much as they like to do via Middle East.


Yes, and that feeds into my other point, EWR-India has been good to UA, but not to AI. Why is it that AI DEL-SFO commands prices premium to the ME3, but EWR-BOM/DEL has been chopped and changed around multiple times in the last 5 years?

I think UA's EWR-India flights have have been largely O&D driven, since the flights land pretty late at night and connecting flights to other major cities via 9W are only available early morning.

I've personally connected through DEL on AI a number of times, and I did not dislike it. I've seen some people of Indian origin react to the concept of connecting via any airport in India as if they were being asked to connect via LGA.
 
devmapper
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - February 2019

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:38 pm

anshabhi wrote:
West coast, and more specifically California has India like weather and surely it's among the top choices for Indians any day. Also, most tech is centered around west coast while east coast is more about business,and Indians in US are majorly techies


No, what I am trying to get to, is perhaps for traditional immigrant cities like New York and Chicago, a large part of the immigrants from India were perhaps economic refugees, arriving before the economic reforms of the 1990's could significantly alter quality of life. Consequently most of them may be generally predisposed to believe that nothing of Indian origin can ever be good enough or measure up to Western standards. People of Indian origin on the West Coast have generally have had better access to some of the opportunities that economic liberalization brought in, and having worked and built companies side-by-side with Americans and immigrants from all other countries, are less likely to view their place of origin as not up to scratch.

Note: this is my conjecture, I do not have empirical evidence to base this on. Please take with appropriate grains of salt.
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