Neither patronization nor friendship is required or warranted. It's a discussion about an aircraft mishap, for which pointless guesswork and speculation is misplaced. It's a technical matter, for which the technicalities are at present in absence.

It's aviation. We don't guess. We know.

If we don't know, and presently there is insufficient information, we don't guess.

747Whale...

Does any thread topic please you? All you do is post about how everyone else is wrong/everything is drivel on online forums. Serious question, why did you join a.net in the first place? You must have seen the typical content beforehand.

BlueberryWheats wrote:

747Whale...

Does any thread topic please you? All you do is post about how everyone else is wrong/everything is drivel on online forums. Serious question, why did you join a.net in the first place? You must have seen the typical content beforehand.

That's because only he is right, only he knows everything, only he can speak...

WayexTDI wrote:

BlueberryWheats wrote:

747Whale...

Does any thread topic please you? All you do is post about how everyone else is wrong/everything is drivel on online forums. Serious question, why did you join a.net in the first place? You must have seen the typical content beforehand.

That's because only he is right, only he knows everything, only he can speak...

I was going to say that in response to your other post - don't take it personally, trust me! lol. I appreciate (almost) everyone trying to be friendly and stay on the same page though - or even *gasp* respecting each others opinions.

The whole fake retired police thing is interesting though - might spin things in a different direction.

So in 2003 the FAA issued two AD's which superseded the spar inspection programs for the 400-series planes. Specifically, left and right forward lower carry-through spar caps are to be replaced - details differ for TIS, and at one point the FAA was going to ground everything.

This is apparently only for the 414'A' though? If it was fatigue-based structural failure, I'd imagine the NTSB would have no trouble narrowing down on that fairly quickly. Even if it wasn't fatigue, the ultimate cause of the crash was in-flight break-up, so that's probably where they'll start, and work back to the "whys" after they figure out the failure mode.

The 414A used an extended, bonded wing, whereas the original 414 wing with tip tanks was riveted.

As those of us who live in Orange County can attest, there is now an all-out media feeding frenzy with regard to this Cessna 414A plane crash. I myself awoke to an investigative reporter on KFI 640's Wake-up Call discussing the pilot's dual-identity and his fraudulent Chicago police credentials. While the NTSB will concentrate on how that Cessna 414A fuselage ultimately ended-up in a Yorba Linda backyard minus both its wings, law enforcement and the media will no-doubt investigate Antonio "Tony" Pastini (a.k.a. Jordan Isaacson) the man.

Interestingly, with a few keystrokes I found an FAA incident back in 1977 for one Jordan A. Isaacson. His daughter, in an interview with KABC, said her father's original middle name was Albert. He was flying a Cessna 172 from Las Vegas to Long Beach (VFR) when he encountered IMC and ice. He told ATC that he was instrument rated-- and possibly an ATP-- when in-fact he was only a Private Pilot SEL. After requesting a runway 30 ILS to KLGB and landing, he received the invariable "could you give us a call" request. His pilot certificate was yanked for 120-days.

https://loc.gov/law/help/ntsb/pdf/1977-SE-3524.pdf

After an additional forty years of life experience and wisdom, one would think this individual wouldn't duplicate such an uncanny, similar situation.

SuseJ772 wrote:

Also that article had a more clear video of the planes descent and it certainly burst into flames before hitting anything.

From that video, it appears the disintegration was a result of the excessive (vertical) speed, and that the point of no return (from controlled flight to accident) had already passed at that point.

I'm led to believe that disintegration was not the cause of the crash, but a result of something else (loss of control).

highflier92660 wrote:

After an additional forty years of life experience and wisdom, one would think this individual wouldn't duplicate such an uncanny, similar situation.

There's only one Antonio Pastini listed in the FAA database; he's instrument rated, commercial pilot certificate. That individual is from Gardnerville, where Pastini had his restaurant.

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx

Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT
Date of Issue: 6/4/2008

Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE
ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER


Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

747Whale wrote:

highflier92660 wrote:

After an additional forty years of life experience and wisdom, one would think this individual wouldn't duplicate such an uncanny, similar situation.

There's only one Antonio Pastini listed in the FAA database; he's instrument rated, commercial pilot certificate. That individual is from Gardnerville, where Pastini had his restaurant.

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/Main.aspx

Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT
Date of Issue: 6/4/2008

Ratings:
COMMERCIAL PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE



ROTORCRAFT-HELICOPTER


Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

Thank you. We shall see.

SuseJ772 wrote:

26point2 wrote:

The story has taken a strange twist. It was initially reported that the pilot was a retired Chicago policeman but his Police ID is fake and there is no record of him working for the Chicago Police.

http://abc7.com/oc-plane-crash-pilots-f ... p/5121959/

That is super weird. Also that article had a more clear video of the planes descent and it certainly burst into flames before hitting anything. I know there was a video previously that led us to believe that but you couldn’t quite tell from the other one if it hit a power line or a tree before being in flames. Definitely structural failure before impact. To be clear though not saying that is the cause of the crash. Could have just been the GForces.

That video appears to show a drastic change in vertical speed when the wing or wings separate. That would support the death spiral theory and as the plane leveled out (probably on its own) the force was too much and snapped the wings. We will have to wait a while to see if icing or disorientation or an engine out led to the spiral. I do thing (and hope) the pilot had already already passed out at that point.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N414RS

On Monday, January 14th, the pilot of the accident aircraft filed an IFR Flight Plan using an identical departure routing to the one he was on the date of the crash: Seal Beach-Victor 21-Paradise. A cursory glance at the view log and one can see this was a day of actual IMC conditions.

Much more has been revealed about the PIC yesterday. He was a Carson City sushi restaurant owner, as well as a friend of the late infamous Dennis Hoff of Bunny Ranch fame. He incorrectly claimed that he was in the Marines during Vietnam, but according to TMZ, did fly Hoff's "bunnies" around Nevada if they would pay for avgas.

Reinventing one's past is not a crime. Many of us know someone who, under the influence of alcohol at a reunion party, can leave a crowd spellbound with Vietnam war stories of yesteryear. Tales of shooting ADF approaches into Quang Tri during an electrical storm--St. Elmo shooting off the props--all the while Charlie was arching SAM's. "Shot 'ol Herky-Bird up so bad we was whistling Dixie down final." You subsequently learn that former Marine pilot was a cook at the El Toro Marine Base in Southern California. What is remarkable is how prevalent and consistent Tony Pastini was with his fictional past and apparently how long the locals of northern Nevada believed him.

trnswrld wrote:

^^^ sorry but he’s right.....how can anyone come on here literally right after a crash and be like “oh sounds like a weight and balance issue” Lol wtf. How does that person have ANY idea whatsoever to make that statement?

I said it “sounds like so” hahaha goodness ,speculation is all this website is usually anyhow. Get off that high horse mate

Karlsands wrote:

trnswrld wrote:

^^^ sorry but he’s right.....how can anyone come on here literally right after a crash and be like “oh sounds like a weight and balance issue” Lol wtf. How does that person have ANY idea whatsoever to make that statement?

I said it “sounds like so” hahaha goodness ,speculation is all this website is usually anyhow. Get off that high horse mate

The thing is, when you throw something out there like "it sounds like weight and balance," without anything whatsoever pointing to that, it sounds a lot more like you tried to find a word that you think is aviation-related, and use it in a sentence.

In the latest video it seems to be spinning counter clockwise and descending at high speed before breaking up and bursting into flames.

I can’t magnify it enough to be sure of the direction, but it certainly seems to be rotating.

what video? Do you have a link?

747Whale wrote:

Karlsands wrote:

trnswrld wrote:

^^^ sorry but he’s right.....how can anyone come on here literally right after a crash and be like “oh sounds like a weight and balance issue” Lol wtf. How does that person have ANY idea whatsoever to make that statement?

I said it “sounds like so” hahaha goodness ,speculation is all this website is usually anyhow. Get off that high horse mate

The thing is, when you throw something out there like "it sounds like weight and balance," without anything whatsoever pointing to that, it sounds a lot more like you tried to find a word that you think is aviation-related, and use it in a sentence.

747Whale,

I appreciate your aviation knowledge and experience but your incessant calling out of posters doesn't who are factually wrong adds about as much to the discussion as their posts.. In essence your're doing the same thing. It is possible to add to the conversation without demeaning other posters. Try it.

On a side note, I grew up in Yorba Linda went to Glenknoll Elementary School and I've walked through that neighborhood many times. Even though I don't personally anyone affected by this crash it still feels a bit personal.

747Whale wrote:

Neither patronization nor friendship is required or warranted. It's a discussion about an aircraft mishap, for which pointless guesswork and speculation is misplaced. It's a technical matter, for which the technicalities are at present in absence.

It's aviation. We don't guess. We know.

If we don't know, and presently there is insufficient information, we don't guess.

So you know everything prior to facts being presented ? You’re no more then an internet douche, one of the primary “rules” explained to any new pilot is to never assume you know it all, yet you assume you do. That in itself is comedy. And again half of what is on this site is pure speculation, and that’s the Intention. Anyhow have a good weekend , mate.

Gotta love this place. We all descend into childish madness because one user used an educated guess to speculate on the cause of the crash, another was chewed out because they forgot the T at the end of the word Weight, and yet another user suggests we seriously restrict GA flying because one guy decided to fly blind into a cloud and then drop the peoples elbow into a house.

So glad this website is free now. I would have never paid for it.

Georgiabill,

The news story about the pilot has a dash-cam video towards the bottom, of the plane in the distance as it breaks up. Its just a tiny dot then a ball of flames.

https://abc7.com/oc-plane-crash-pilots- ... p/5121959/

highflier92660 wrote:

Reinventing one's past is not a crime. Many of us know someone who, under the influence of alcohol at a reunion party, can leave a crowd spellbound with Vietnam war stories of yesteryear. Tales of shooting ADF approaches into Quang Tri during an electrical storm--St. Elmo shooting off the props--all the while Charlie was arching SAM's. "Shot 'ol Herky-Bird up so bad we was whistling Dixie down final." You subsequently learn that former Marine pilot was a cook at the El Toro Marine Base in Southern California. What is remarkable is how prevalent and consistent Tony Pastini was with his fictional past and apparently how long the locals of northern Nevada believed him.

It's illegal if he's doing it to profit financially off of it. Also known as stolen valor. Impersonating a police officer, whether you profit off of it or not, is illegal as well.

Sounds like the pilot had a lot of skeletons in his closet. He had three different names, lied about being a police officer, and stole a police officer badge. His final criminal act was killing these four innocent people.

777PHX wrote:

It's illegal if he's doing it to profit financially off of it. Also known as stolen valor. Impersonating a police officer, whether you profit off of it or not, is illegal as well.

777PHX is absolutely correct! And thus far that aspect of Tony Pastini's life has taken a backseat to finding a cause of the accident.

I guess it is possible to be a miscreant and a competent pilot at the same time. Until the NTSB comes out with a probable cause, we are all whistling in the dark. We don’t know what caused the plane to break up. We may never know, nonetheless, it is good fun to speculate. Let’s all remember that this is an enthusiasts’ site and relax. Prayers and best wishes to all affected by this tragedy

TTailedTiger wrote:

Sounds like the pilot had a lot of skeletons in his closet. He had three different names, lied about being a police officer, and stole a police officer badge. His final criminal act was killing these four innocent people.

It was said at some point that the badge being at the crash site is unrelated to the crash itself.

WayexTDI wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

Sounds like the pilot had a lot of skeletons in his closet. He had three different names, lied about being a police officer, and stole a police officer badge. His final criminal act was killing these four innocent people.

It was said at some point that the badge being at the crash site is unrelated to the crash itself.

There is still no record of him being a Chicago police officer like he claimed.

nikeherc wrote:

I guess it is possible to be a miscreant and a competent pilot at the same time. Until the NTSB comes out with a probable cause, we are all whistling in the dark. We don’t know what caused the plane to break up. We may never know, nonetheless, it is good fun to speculate. Let’s all remember that this is an enthusiasts’ site and relax. Prayers and best wishes to all affected by this tragedy

But he wasn't a competent pilot. He got his license taken away twice.

CLTRampRat wrote:

Gotta love this place. We all descend into childish madness because one user used an educated guess to speculate on the cause of the crash, another was chewed out because they forgot the T at the end of the word Weight, and yet another user suggests we seriously restrict GA flying because one guy decided to fly blind into a cloud and then drop the peoples elbow into a house.

So glad this website is free now. I would have never paid for it.

Agree with you, except the free part. I paid for my membership back in the day. It was better when it wasn't free as it kept a lot of this type of "childish madness" out and had a lot more high quality posters (PhilSquare, Slamclick, Pihero, et al). Now most of them have left. We still have some quality (StarlionBlue, Zeke), and some who show up for only a few threads (mandala499), but by and large, every thread eventually falls into madness. It's like Airliners.net own version of Godwin's law. Given the discussions length, any and all discussions will eventually descend into this.

But hey, Airliners sold to Demand Media and then VerticalScope, and thus had to drive up page loads. Thus we have what we have today.

SuseJ772 wrote:

CLTRampRat wrote:

Gotta love this place. We all descend into childish madness because one user used an educated guess to speculate on the cause of the crash, another was chewed out because they forgot the T at the end of the word Weight, and yet another user suggests we seriously restrict GA flying because one guy decided to fly blind into a cloud and then drop the peoples elbow into a house.

So glad this website is free now. I would have never paid for it.

Agree with you, except the free part. I paid for my membership back in the day. It was better when it wasn't free as it kept a lot of this type of "childish madness" out and had a lot more high quality posters (PhilSquare, Slamclick, Pihero, et al). Now most of them have left. We still have some quality (StarlionBlue, Zeke), and some who show up for only a few threads (mandala499), but by and large, every thread eventually falls into madness. It's like Airliners.net own version of Godwin's law. Given the discussions length, any and all discussions will eventually descend into this.

But hey, Airliners sold to Demand Media and then VerticalScope, and thus had to drive up page loads. Thus we have what we have today.

I was a long time lurker. I remember the days before it was free and before it was sold. Those were better days. A shame I never pulled the trigger back then.

I've seen a video on youtube (but not kept the link) of someone's security cam. You don't see anything, but there is sound of the crash, you hear it for like 2 minutes, including a high pitch prop noise until it crashes, so engine failure doesn't seem likely.

Aesma wrote:

I've seen a video on youtube (but not kept the link) of someone's security cam. You don't see anything, but there is sound of the crash, you hear it for like 2 minutes, including a high pitch prop noise until it crashes, so engine failure doesn't seem likely.

In a vertical dive you're going to hear the propellers wind up because it's the slipstream driving the prop, not the engine.

Karlsands wrote:

So you know everything prior to facts being presented ? .

No, we don't, which is why we don't speculate. Think.

As you keep digging deeper, what possible element of logic did you follow that in any way suggested or intimated that this mishap was the result of weight, or balance?

Not a whit. You threw a wild unsubstantiated idea with what you thought was an aviation term into the air to see what would stick. It didn't. Presently there is nothing, absolutely nothing, which points to weight and balance, or would suggest it, or be indicative of a problem with the weight, or the center of gravity.

Aesma wrote:

I've seen a video on youtube (but not kept the link) of someone's security cam. You don't see anything, but there is sound of the crash, you hear it for like 2 minutes, including a high pitch prop noise until it crashes, so engine failure doesn't seem likely.

There could be the possibility of an engine failure at 23 seconds in (the pop sound) and a steadily developing problem of control in IMC that leads to spatial disorientation. That final sound is the slipstream overspeeding the props, and I have to say that it is utterly horrendous to hear. I think the first "crash sound" may be the wings separating (the prop noise would stop right about then) and the last one the ground impact.

The other dashcam movie that shows flames and the final descent could be explained by the pilot suddenly going VMC and instead of seeing a cloudscape ahead and blue above him, he sees the ground. No prizes for guessing the instinctive reaction to that sight. A final desperate heave at high speed and the airframe gives up the ghost.

Again, this is just speculation based on a few possibly related factors - I'm not about to pretend that I'm a crash investigator, although I fly and have flown in IMC. The "pop" sound could as easily be a backfire on a road somewhere fairly near and the pilot's loss of control could as easily have been a coincidence, and the final breakup might not have been as a result of a control input at all. It's fairly easy to put together a sequence of likely events, and it's okay to do that so long as we're prepared to change our minds when other info comes in - ultimately from the NTSB.

I think the sequence I've dreamed up fits what I know about flying. Given that I don't know everything about flying it's just as likely I'll hear a surprise or two about the incident later on.

I don't mind the bickering quite so much, but it would help if people would be a bit less attached to their speculations and theories and become more receptive to other ideas. Because I'm open to other explanations it's easy to accept criticism of my own speculations (above) because I accept them for what they are. If people choose to be offensive about the opinions of others, that's not a reflection on the person they're being offensive to, that's a reflection on them. I tend to try staying close to the adage that nastiness to others online reveals one's opinion about someone else, and a fact about one's own character. It can get frustrating to discuss something you know you're right about only to meet with obtuseness, though! Sometimes it's less stressful to speculate because at least you know it's all opinion!