leghorn
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What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:29 pm

There are a lot of these stored. What is the going rate for one which is due a major service check but otherwise in perfect mechanical order?
 
drdisque
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:54 pm

around $1M if a service is due. They can go for a little more if they're low hours or have some flying before their next major service.

There's not a lot of buyers. Most charter airlines looking for 50 seaters are looking for ERJ's since they have more rows.

Buyers of CR2's are basically small African airlines, small Russian/former Soviet airlines replacing Yak-40's, and assorted other carriers looking for 1-5 frames.

There is also a program to convert the CR2 to freighter, but the appeal for this is largely limited to freight forwarders and the conversion is pricey. This is one job where an old CR2 is better suited than an old ERJ since the CR2 has a larger tube.
 
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lugie
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:38 pm

drdisque wrote:
around $1M if a service is due. They can go for a little more if they're low hours or have some flying before their next major service.

There's not a lot of buyers. Most charter airlines looking for 50 seaters are looking for ERJ's since they have more rows.




What is the advantage for a charter operator specifically / any operator of small planes to have their 50-seaters be an ERJ145 with 17-18 rows over a CRJ200 with 12-13 rows?
Wouldn't it be more practical to have a shorter fuselage to optimize boarding?


That aside, $1M seems like a steal
Just take out some of the seats and turn it into a bizjet "light" ;)
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mercure1
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:40 pm

Check out this excellent recurring thread

Aircraft Values and Lease Pricing - Summer 2018
viewtopic.php?t=1399391
mercure f-wtcc
 
drdisque
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:45 pm

Most groups chartering a 50 seater aren't going to fill all 50 seats. With the ERJ they can seat ~34 people with nobody having to be squished next to someone else. With the CRJ they can only sit ~25. Boarding times are not a high priority since they don't really operate on a schedule anyway.

The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.
 
leghorn
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:22 pm

seems that not needing a service/major check over doubles the price of a CRJ200 and I'd guess is probably the difference between making it saleable and unsaleable.
 
VS11
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:17 pm

What about ADS-B? Are these ADS-Bequipped? Generally, the price of the smaller older jets is expected to be depressed per the ADS-B mandate.
 
Lpbri
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:46 am

I would think how much time is on the engines is probably the biggest factor.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:47 am

drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


That almost sounds like a business opportunity: Buy some used CRJ200s on the cheap, fully refurbish them including adding enough additional fuel capacity to double if not triple the range, then market them as a lower-cost alternative to anything else near that size in the biz jet market with the extra added bonus of having an airframe with relatively huge production numbers and readily available parts.

Thinking about that a little further, though, I'd imagine most biz jet owners like to brag about the expense and exclusivity of their planes, so the prospective business opportunity has a better-than-average chance of abject failure.
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:29 am

TSS wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


That almost sounds like a business opportunity: Buy some used CRJ200s on the cheap, fully refurbish them including adding enough additional fuel capacity to double if not triple the range, then market them as a lower-cost alternative to anything else near that size in the biz jet market with the extra added bonus of having an airframe with relatively huge production numbers and readily available parts.

Thinking about that a little further, though, I'd imagine most biz jet owners like to brag about the expense and exclusivity of their planes, so the prospective business opportunity has a better-than-average chance of abject failure.


Would be coming full circle since the CRJ was developed from a bizjet in the first place.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:37 am

VS11 wrote:
What about ADS-B? Are these ADS-Bequipped? Generally, the price of the smaller older jets is expected to be depressed per the ADS-B mandate.


It can be done, as many in service today have been modified.
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:55 am

TSS wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


That almost sounds like a business opportunity: Buy some used CRJ200s on the cheap, fully refurbish them including adding enough additional fuel capacity to double if not triple the range, then market them as a lower-cost alternative to anything else near that size in the biz jet market with the extra added bonus of having an airframe with relatively huge production numbers and readily available parts.

Thinking about that a little further, though, I'd imagine most biz jet owners like to brag about the expense and exclusivity of their planes, so the prospective business opportunity has a better-than-average chance of abject failure.


The more you modify them with things like greater fuel tankage, the more you'd have to pay up-front to get the changes certified, though.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:59 am

Wish it was easy to upload pics on this site. Many 200s are used as chicken coups south of Houston. Stacked together it looks cool seeing all the different airline colors. Usually they are in comair/asa paint.
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Delta717JFK
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:08 am

I work for a company that operates quite a few Challenger 850's which is the corporate version of the CRJ 200. Ours seat up to 14 pax. They are still pigs. With the right conditions we can get them to fly 5.5 hours but thats really stretching it. We usually keep them on flights 3-5 hours max. Don't get me started on hot and high.
 
STLflyer
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:24 am

About $3.50
 
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NYPECO
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:37 am

reltney wrote:
Wish it was easy to upload pics on this site. Many 200s are used as chicken coups south of Houston. Stacked together it looks cool seeing all the different airline colors. Usually they are in comair/asa paint.


Upload the picture to another site and then post the link here.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:47 am

mercure1 wrote:
Check out this excellent recurring thread

Aircraft Values and Lease Pricing - Summer 2018
viewtopic.php?t=1399391

From that thread:
CRJ200 $1.0-2.4M, $25-45,000

In other words, a newer in good condition airframe is only $2.4 million.


The market has moved on.

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airaa
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:08 am

What ever happened to all the airlines CRJ 100 and 200? Have they been taken for parts, or stored in the desert. Are there 100s out there?
 
leghorn
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:21 am

TSS wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


That almost sounds like a business opportunity: Buy some used CRJ200s on the cheap, fully refurbish them including adding enough additional fuel capacity to double if not triple the range, then market them as a lower-cost alternative to anything else near that size in the biz jet market with the extra added bonus of having an airframe with relatively huge production numbers and readily available parts.

Thinking about that a little further, though, I'd imagine most biz jet owners like to brag about the expense and exclusivity of their planes, so the prospective business opportunity has a better-than-average chance of abject failure.

I thought about this a few weeks ago and the big issue with them is that they have run out of hours.
If hours were not a problem they won't sell on the basis of conspicuous consumption/bragging value but utility value and that limits the market to HNWI who just want a second jet lying around for the grown kids to go on trips while the main Jet is still kept available or else to western self-made business people who still know the worth of a Dollar.

It is a small market but there are only a few hundred of them stored at present.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:40 pm

drdisque wrote:
...There is also a program to convert the CR2 to freighter, but the appeal for this is largely limited to freight forwarders and the conversion is pricey. This is one job where an old CR2 is better suited than an old ERJ since the CR2 has a larger tube.


IFL shows they operate one CRJ1 and three CRJ2 conversions.

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lightsaber
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:45 pm

airaa wrote:
What ever happened to all the airlines CRJ 100 and 200? Have they been taken for parts, or stored in the desert. Are there 100s out there?

The airfleets production summary is a fun tool, albeit with a 2 week time delay.

https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-crj.htm

If you click on SkyWest, you will see they still have cr2-100er in service. With the recent PIP to a LOV of 80,000 FC, up from 60,000FC, these planes have another heavy maintenance interval of use left in them.

The issue is the profits are too low. The 70 seaters do not cost much more to fly.

Lightsaber

Late edit:. The above link shows 502 of 1969 CRJs not opperating. Most out of service will be CR1/CR2.

I would have to go through the detailed production summary to see how many were scrapped.
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leghorn
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:51 pm

I was thinking about how do you make these things valuable...all I could think of was extend the service life and/or make them suitable for airports with steep approaches.
They'll never be suitable for airlines with steep approaches.
Other than that all I can think is that you could possibly spirit them away to a country like Iran who are desperate for planes and are willing to make the compromises associated with an old 50 seater jet.
 
airaa
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Thank you. Airfleets.net is cool website
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:09 pm

Delta717JFK wrote:
I work for a company that operates quite a few Challenger 850's which is the corporate version of the CRJ 200. Ours seat up to 14 pax. They are still pigs. With the right conditions we can get them to fly 5.5 hours but thats really stretching it. We usually keep them on flights 3-5 hours max. Don't get me started on hot and high.


You can fly it with cotton balls inside...... the problem is the wing. They did help airlines retire the 727 quickly so that is their highlight in aviation history.
 
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Slug71
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:09 pm

leghorn wrote:
I was thinking about how do you make these things valuable...all I could think of was extend the service life and/or make them suitable for airports with steep approaches.
They'll never be suitable for airlines with steep approaches.
Other than that all I can think is that you could possibly spirit them away to a country like Iran who are desperate for planes and are willing to make the compromises associated with an old 50 seater jet.


Service life extension, cockpit upgrade, and a pair of Safran Silvercrests. :D
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:11 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
drdisque wrote:
...There is also a program to convert the CR2 to freighter, but the appeal for this is largely limited to freight forwarders and the conversion is pricey. This is one job where an old CR2 is better suited than an old ERJ since the CR2 has a larger tube.


IFL shows they operate one CRJ1 and three CRJ2 conversions.



They and Aeronaves TSM are the big customers for this conversion so far. They are (volume and payload-wise) an ideal replacement for the respective fleets of CV-580/640s. In fact, since the CRJ2SF introduction into the Aeronaves fleet, you don't see the Convairs doing that crazy YIP-LRD trip anymore.
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:04 pm

Engine condition is the main driver for airframe value.

Overhaul of a CF34-3 will cost between $1.2M upto 2.5M each, depending on life-limited parts status. If all LLP is replaced with new (i.e. useful life of 18000 cycles), the shop will most likely show you an invoice exceeding $2M per engine.
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:08 pm

1969… Not bad for a production run… Not stellar nowadays, but much more than most historic models.
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:30 pm

Slug71 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I was thinking about how do you make these things valuable...all I could think of was extend the service life and/or make them suitable for airports with steep approaches.
They'll never be suitable for airlines with steep approaches.
Other than that all I can think is that you could possibly spirit them away to a country like Iran who are desperate for planes and are willing to make the compromises associated with an old 50 seater jet.


Service life extension, cockpit upgrade, and a pair of Safran Silvercrests. :D

Service life extension complete. My mistake, the -100 wasn't included. :(. Nor -1000.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... 202011.pdf

Cockpit upgrades are offered (but expensive).

Silvercrest is a neat idea. Shame they lack any platform. If there is to be a CRJ NEO Passport, PW1200/800, or Pearl could apply for the application. But it must be launched soon!

If there is a CRJ NEO, wing tweaks must be done. But stay under 86,000 lb. (Scope clauses limit).

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lightsaber
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:33 pm

Aircellist wrote:
1969… Not bad for a production run… Not stellar nowadays, but much more than most historic models.

Not bad? Besides the 747 and later 737, who are likely to exceed? Dc-3 asside. We're talking before any in production Airbus. A 20 year production run is considered steller in my book.

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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:07 pm

drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.

Stewart-Haas Racing, the NASCAR team, owns a CRJ-200, a former Mesa/US Airways Express bird. They use it to fly crew members to races during the season. For the handful of West Coast races, it's not a big deal to them if they need to make a refueling stop along the way.

Shortly after acquisition:

Image

After a full repaint:

Image
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:06 pm

drdisque wrote:
Most groups chartering a 50 seater aren't going to fill all 50 seats. With the ERJ they can seat ~34 people with nobody having to be squished next to someone else. With the CRJ they can only sit ~25. Boarding times are not a high priority since they don't really operate on a schedule anyway.

The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


Charters don't care about passenger comfort and the CRJ-200 is better off short runways than the ERJ-145. I find the CRJ's are not as tight feeling as the 145's.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I was thinking about how do you make these things valuable...all I could think of was extend the service life and/or make them suitable for airports with steep approaches.
They'll never be suitable for airlines with steep approaches.
Other than that all I can think is that you could possibly spirit them away to a country like Iran who are desperate for planes and are willing to make the compromises associated with an old 50 seater jet.


Service life extension, cockpit upgrade, and a pair of Safran Silvercrests. :D

Service life extension complete. My mistake, the -100 wasn't included. :(. Nor -1000.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Docume ... 202011.pdf

Cockpit upgrades are offered (but expensive).

Silvercrest is a neat idea. Shame they lack any platform. If there is to be a CRJ NEO Passport, PW1200/800, or Pearl could apply for the application. But it must be launched soon!

If there is a CRJ NEO, wing tweaks must be done. But stay under 86,000 lb. (Scope clauses limit).

Lightsaber


Good call on those engines too.
The CRJ 1/200 is the one plane where I really think production should be restarted. Very little competition in its market and the new generation engines are making it more feasible.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:04 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
1969… Not bad for a production run… Not stellar nowadays, but much more than most historic models.

Not bad? Besides the 747 and later 737, who are likely to exceed? Dc-3 asside. We're talking before any in production Airbus. A 20 year production run is considered steller in my book.

Lightsaber


Let's settle for remarkable ;)

The DC-9 and its avatars also had more, IIRC. But indeed we are in the higher numbers.

And nowadays all options are open and the birds are worth a few cents. And BBD might well soon be out of airliners production.
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drdisque
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:38 pm

airlineworker wrote:
drdisque wrote:
Most groups chartering a 50 seater aren't going to fill all 50 seats. With the ERJ they can seat ~34 people with nobody having to be squished next to someone else. With the CRJ they can only sit ~25. Boarding times are not a high priority since they don't really operate on a schedule anyway.

The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


Charters don't care about passenger comfort and the CRJ-200 is better off short runways than the ERJ-145. I find the CRJ's are not as tight feeling as the 145's.


All I can do is speak by the numbers; The only US charter airline to operate the CRJ is Elite Airways. The ERJ is/was operated by ADI, IBC, VIa/CAT, Contour, Ultimate, and JetSuiteX as well as being the corporate shuttles for Menard's. There's simply way more charter or corporate shuttle ERJ's flying in the US than CRJ's.
 
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:09 pm

TSS wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The downside of those aircraft as a bizjet is their lack of range compared to other bizjets that size. That's why most ones you see in private hands are configured more as a "corporate shuttle". Very few business jet owners need the size of a 50 seat RJ but don't need more than 2000 miles range.


That almost sounds like a business opportunity: Buy some used CRJ200s on the cheap, fully refurbish them including adding enough additional fuel capacity to double if not triple the range, then market them as a lower-cost alternative to anything else near that size in the biz jet market with the extra added bonus of having an airframe with relatively huge production numbers and readily available parts.

Thinking about that a little further, though, I'd imagine most biz jet owners like to brag about the expense and exclusivity of their planes, so the prospective business opportunity has a better-than-average chance of abject failure.


Didn’t sell the first when offered as the Challenger 850. Too little performance (speed and range, but also runway in many operations) mainly. It was popular with Tussians to take their mistresses to Turkey for a dirty weekend. There were a fuel tank mod to increase range, but it then became a crew transport plane. The cabin is close in volume to a Global without any of the performance. You can buy an early-ish Global (Honeywell cockpit with Batch 3 mods) for around $12 million, re-rag the interior for a couple of million have all the performance you could want. Finding a good old Global might take some looking nowadays.

GF
 
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lightsaber
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:39 pm

Aircellist wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
1969… Not bad for a production run… Not stellar nowadays, but much more than most historic models.

Not bad? Besides the 747 and later 737, who are likely to exceed? Dc-3 asside. We're talking before any in production Airbus. A 20 year production run is considered steller in my book.

Lightsaber


Let's settle for remarkable ;)

The DC-9 and its avatars also had more, IIRC. But indeed we are in the higher numbers.

And nowadays all options are open and the birds are worth a few cents. And BBD might well soon be out of airliners production.

Hmmm...
DC-9 1965 to 717 left the line in 2006 or 41 years!
Challenger/CRJ was 1980 until... well, still selling for all the Avatars. ;) or 39 years and will be in production for at least two more. Yes, CR1/2 from 1991 to 2006, but let us compare like to like.

So actually, I do consider the family to continue to be stellar. :spin:

Lightsaber
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gsg013
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Re: What is an elderly CRJ200 worth on the open market?

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:19 am

lugie wrote:
drdisque wrote:
around $1M if a service is due. They can go for a little more if they're low hours or have some flying before their next major service.

There's not a lot of buyers. Most charter airlines looking for 50 seaters are looking for ERJ's since they have more rows.




What is the advantage for a charter operator specifically / any operator of small planes to have their 50-seaters be an ERJ145 with 17-18 rows over a CRJ200 with 12-13 rows?
Wouldn't it be more practical to have a shorter fuselage to optimize boarding?


That aside, $1M seems like a steal
Just take out some of the seats and turn it into a bizjet "light" ;)


If the hours aren't too high this is a viable option. A CRJ-200 is the same as the Bombardier Challenger 850 15 pax private jet. I've flown on one once it was really nice (Similar cabin length as the Bombardier Global Express, just without the long range capabilities). Range tops out around 3200 miles which is enough to just get you Trans Atlantic to England from the East Coast of the US.

ex: https://www.radarbox24.com/data/registr ... 1190487040

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Challenger_850

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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos