Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10
 
MrBretz
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:20 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. . I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. .



You have to pay more for assigned seating on legacys now so it basically the same thing as buying early bird.


Good point but not quite. WA may sell so many early birds that you get C boarding. See the quote I posted from the WN website earlier. And I think this may be the norm for travel to the islands. But you have a point. I was looking at UAs website just now. They charge you more for preferred seats even if you spring for economy and not basic economy. They sure know how to make flying even more difficult, don't they?
 
n562wn
Posts: 98
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:48 pm

Not directed at anyone in particular but I find the naysayer's arguments somewhat entertaining. One end of the spectrum suggests that there is ungodly amount of over capacity in the market and everyone is already flying empty planes to the islands as will WN.

On the other hand, some naysayers are suggesting how awful it will be to fly on WN, because you'll never get to fly with your families even if you purchase the early bird boarding.

So which is it? I'm assuming it'll most likely be somewhere in the middle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:58 am

SteveXC500 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I really hope this happens soon, at least before another possible gov't shutdown. Would be interesting to see how much they stimulate the market.

Likely they will stimulate close to zero. Fares to Hawaii are extremely low and the limiting factor is really hotel prices not airfare.


Fares are extremely low? I think you should explain this more. Fares are low from the west coast, yes.
Try ex-MSP...over $1,000

You can easily find MSP-HNL for under $500RT. I just looked online for May. That is insanely cheap given the distance. DL may charge a premium for their nonstop but you can get connections for crazy cheap.

Bobloblaw wrote:
How much taxes are on top of that $67 NYO-TFS fare?

I'm seeing more like $200RT (bare minimum) on Ryanair and that doesn't include all of their insane fees. All of the carriers flying to Hawaii do so with full service (except SY).

TFS can also be done without ETOPS which adds significant costs for the airlines flying to Hawaii.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1890
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:40 am

All I'm saying is the "Southwest" effect is NEVER going to be realized. Tell that to go!, Island Air, Mahalo, Mokulele(E170 op), ATA, Aloha, etc. Fares can already be dirt cheap, and show me where Southwest is still the "low fare airline" - they haven't been since Herb retired. WN's fares are in line with almost everyone else, if not more expensive.

There's plenty of saturation already.

For those of you who work at American, check *EVERY flight tonight out of Maui. Kona certainly won't be leaving anyone behind. Nor will Lihue. Its a non-rev's dream.

Alaska - Maui to San Fran, LA, San Diego... far from full. Alaska's Kona departures today - if you add up all the empty seats, you'd be well over a 737-900's capacity. Again, a non-rev's dream.

I stand by my statement. Southwest entering the trans-pac market is going to do nothing more than make Honolulu easier for non-revs.
xx
 
Crzn33k
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:19 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:44 am

Jshank83 wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. . I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. .



You have to pay more for assigned seating on legacys now so it basically the same thing as buying early bird.

Unless you buy saver fares I believe all come with assigned seating
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:47 am

Rdh3e wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Likely they will stimulate close to zero. Fares to Hawaii are extremely low and the limiting factor is really hotel prices not airfare.


Fares are extremely low? I think you should explain this more. Fares are low from the west coast, yes.
Try ex-MSP...over $1,000

You can easily find MSP-HNL for under $500RT. I just looked online for May. That is insanely cheap given the distance. DL may charge a premium for their nonstop but you can get connections for crazy cheap.

Bobloblaw wrote:
How much taxes are on top of that $67 NYO-TFS fare?

I'm seeing more like $200RT (bare minimum) on Ryanair and that doesn't include all of their insane fees. All of the carriers flying to Hawaii do so with full service (except SY).

TFS can also be done without ETOPS which adds significant costs for the airlines flying to Hawaii.

Maybe, but May is definitely shoulder season. Those flights go for $800-$1000 in the summer. And those fares aren’t loaded up with taxes and fees like international. That said, WN isn’t going for MSP-Hawaii traffic. They are looking at west coast, especially California, to Hawaii. WN is big in California and California is big in Hawaii. They will do fine.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:49 am

Crzn33k wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. . I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. .



You have to pay more for assigned seating on legacys now so it basically the same thing as buying early bird.

Unless you buy saver fares I believe all come with assigned seating

And you are looking at a $50 fare premium to Hawaii for regular economy most likely.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:21 am

WPvsMW wrote:
OAK-HNL-OGG-OAK.
That is almost as sensational as CONUS/HI.
And makes CONUS-OGG-HNL-CONUS a matter of time.
Fare war HNL/OGG?
Even if the same fare... a real mainline seat in Y on WN, not the VY FR U2 experience on HA's B712s.


Heres a hint the 712's do not fly Hawaii-Mainland, the A330/A321 do and those are better pitch & seat. They don't need a long range higher comfort seat on 15 min inter island flights.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:24 am

Rdh3e wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
Rdh3e wrote:
Likely they will stimulate close to zero. Fares to Hawaii are extremely low and the limiting factor is really hotel prices not airfare.


Fares are extremely low? I think you should explain this more. Fares are low from the west coast, yes.
Try ex-MSP...over $1,000

You can easily find MSP-HNL for under $500RT. I just looked online for May. That is insanely cheap given the distance. DL may charge a premium for their nonstop but you can get connections for crazy cheap.

Bobloblaw wrote:
How much taxes are on top of that $67 NYO-TFS fare?

I'm seeing more like $200RT (bare minimum) on Ryanair and that doesn't include all of their insane fees. All of the carriers flying to Hawaii do so with full service (except SY).

TFS can also be done without ETOPS which adds significant costs for the airlines flying to Hawaii.


Prices pic up in the summer season. And they drop in the rainy season.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:48 am

MrBretz wrote:
I got a couple of those cheap airfares from LAX to KOA early last December. I booked it about a month ahead. When UA’s website said it was $300, I thought it was 1 way. But, no, it was RT. I have to fess up: we sprung for premium economy which added about $200 RT to the ticket. On the way out, the plane was maybe 1/3 full. The return around the middle of Dec was about 3/4 full. Hotel prices and cars are pricey.


December is not the high market time due to kids free in the summer & rainy season.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:51 am

usxguy wrote:
All I'm saying is the "Southwest" effect is NEVER going to be realized. Tell that to go!, Island Air, Mahalo, Mokulele(E170 op), ATA, Aloha, etc. Fares can already be dirt cheap, and show me where Southwest is still the "low fare airline" - they haven't been since Herb retired. WN's fares are in line with almost everyone else, if not more expensive.

There's plenty of saturation already.

For those of you who work at American, check *EVERY flight tonight out of Maui. Kona certainly won't be leaving anyone behind. Nor will Lihue. Its a non-rev's dream.

Alaska - Maui to San Fran, LA, San Diego... far from full. Alaska's Kona departures today - if you add up all the empty seats, you'd be well over a 737-900's capacity. Again, a non-rev's dream.

I stand by my statement. Southwest entering the trans-pac market is going to do nothing more than make Honolulu easier for non-revs.


I don't count non revs as a successful full flight. I count paid passengers.
 
WN732
Posts: 809
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:56 am

usxguy wrote:
All I'm saying is the "Southwest" effect is NEVER going to be realized. Tell that to go!, Island Air, Mahalo, Mokulele(E170 op), ATA, Aloha, etc. Fares can already be dirt cheap, and show me where Southwest is still the "low fare airline" - they haven't been since Herb retired. WN's fares are in line with almost everyone else, if not more expensive.

There's plenty of saturation already.

For those of you who work at American, check *EVERY flight tonight out of Maui. Kona certainly won't be leaving anyone behind. Nor will Lihue. Its a non-rev's dream.

Alaska - Maui to San Fran, LA, San Diego... far from full. Alaska's Kona departures today - if you add up all the empty seats, you'd be well over a 737-900's capacity. Again, a non-rev's dream.

I stand by my statement. Southwest entering the trans-pac market is going to do nothing more than make Honolulu easier for non-revs.


I'm going to love to watch them prove you wrong.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2226
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:02 am

ETOPS isn't just for Hawaii. It will be used to buildout new destinations no doubt..
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
wnflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1990
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:18 am

Varsity1 wrote:
ETOPS isn't just for Hawaii. It will be used to buildout new destinations no doubt..


While I'm probably the biggest fan of WN.
They can't even get MEX to work.
ETOPS will only take you to so many umbrellas drink American only vacationing destinations.
If MEX international ticket sales can't get figured out forget Western Europe or South America at this point in my mind.

Hopefully Hawaii works out good for them.

High hopes Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3625
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:21 am

MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. The flight to Hawaii can approach 6 hours. That’s a long way to fly on vacation not being guaranteed seating next to family or friends. It’s not an obstacle on much shorter mainland flights but on these longer leisure flights, I see resistance. I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. I know who will win that argument.



Stop with the cattle car Bull crap already. Have you ever checked seat pitch on 737's.
AA 738 to Hawaii 30"-31" pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.
DL A321/738 to Hawaii 30" pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.
UA 738 & 772 (10X & narrower isles) to Hawaii 31"pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.

Meanwhile WN 738's all have 32"-33" & 17" wide seat bottoms.

So who is really operating the cattle cars.
 
hiloboy1
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:21 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:24 am

Very curious to see WN pricing; typically for Hawaii residents we get bent over with airfares almost doubling June through September and then again 15 December through the New Year. Up to 15 December RT airfare can be $350 to $500 then it jumps overnight to $700-$800. These are the times we need cheap fares to get our children to/from mainland colleges or we can take time off. We're all hoping for "the WN effect"!0
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4320
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:52 am

usxguy wrote:
All I'm saying is the "Southwest" effect is NEVER going to be realized. Tell that to go!, Island Air, Mahalo, Mokulele(E170 op), ATA, Aloha, etc. Fares can already be dirt cheap, and show me where Southwest is still the "low fare airline" - they haven't been since Herb retired. WN's fares are in line with almost everyone else, if not more expensive.



To the mainland, correct. Hawaii-west coast has been very competitive with low fares already. Bay area especially.

Interisland though, they will definitely shake up.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3483
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:13 am

rbavfan wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. The flight to Hawaii can approach 6 hours. That’s a long way to fly on vacation not being guaranteed seating next to family or friends. It’s not an obstacle on much shorter mainland flights but on these longer leisure flights, I see resistance. I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. I know who will win that argument.



Stop with the cattle car Bull crap already. Have you ever checked seat pitch on 737's.
AA 738 to Hawaii 30"-31" pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.
DL A321/738 to Hawaii 30" pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.
UA 738 & 772 (10X & narrower isles) to Hawaii 31"pitch & 17" wide seat bottoms.

Meanwhile WN 738's all have 32"-33" & 17" wide seat bottoms.

So who is really operating the cattle cars.


Not to mention, flying California to Hawaii is pretty much the same time-wise as flying California to the northeast, and thousands of people do that on Southwest every single day.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3557
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:13 am

Crzn33k wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
The one problem I see with WNs model is the lack of assigned seating. . I heard a couple who lives there discussing this recently. The man was talking about potentially cheap fares to the mainland. The woman said there was no way she was flying on a cattle car not possibly being able to sit next to her husband. .



You have to pay more for assigned seating on legacys now so it basically the same thing as buying early bird.

Unless you buy saver fares I believe all come with assigned seating


For trips I book, the basic Econ fare is usually pretty closely matched to the WN price. Could obviously be different other places. So paying for main cabin is the same as paying for early bird (or actually a little more).

I had one recently that the basic Econ was way less on UA, but that’s been it.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:10 am

Varsity1 wrote:
ETOPS isn't just for Hawaii. It will be used to buildout new destinations no doubt..


Actually, as far as WN is concerned, ETOPS IS just for HI.

Nothing else is even on the horizon.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
AirbusA322
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:38 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:42 am

So is the plan to open a crew/737 base in Hawaii?

HNL-Fiji?
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:29 am

AirbusA322 wrote:
So is the plan to open a crew/737 base in Hawaii?

HNL-Fiji?


OAK and LAX will be the only ETOPS crew bases. The "plan" is to feed Californian's to Hawaii.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
grbauc
Posts: 1469
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 am

tphuang wrote:
I really hope this happens soon, at least before another possible gov't shutdown. Would be interesting to see how much they stimulate the market.



what fares aren't cheap enough I pay the same price i use to 15yr ago LAX/SNA/ONT to Hawaii...
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 4284
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:33 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:34 am

wnflyguy wrote:
While I'm probably the biggest fan of WN.
They can't even get MEX to work.
ETOPS will only take you to so many umbrellas drink American only vacationing destinations.
If MEX international ticket sales can't get figured out forget Western Europe or South America at this point in my mind.

Hopefully Hawaii works out good for them.

High hopes Flyguy


That might be because Mexico City is inland, other than being a big city it has nothing to offer. No beaches, no holiday vibe, etc. However Mexican destinations like Cancun and San José del Cabo are performing very well for them. Why is that? Beaches and holiday vibe. It just so happens that you can also find these things in Hawaii. A bit longer flight perhaps, but people will be checking it out.

Besides, Hawaii is a domestic flight while Mexico is international. That comes with the hustle of needing a passport and passing immigration. No need for that when going to Hawaii.
 
texasdoc
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:42 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:59 pm

Does anyone have insight into Southwest's likely flight schedule to Hawaii? The biggest advantage they have over say, Alaska and Hawaiian, is their huge domestic network and ability to feed connecting traffic into the Hawaii flights. That said, they can't connect passengers to Hawaii if they depart so early in the morning that connecting flights can't get there in time. But Southwest also doesn't do red-eye flights, which makes the timing tight to get from California to Hawaii back in the same day. Obviously aircraft could arrive mid or late afternoon in Hawaii and sit overnight, but that's not good for utilization. Just curious how they will handle this issue. Perhaps having an aircraft make the mainland-Hawaii flight once per day, then fly inter island will ultimately be the solution.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:39 pm

What is this upgraded food & beverage you speak of? Is there something new galley wise on the HNL dedicated flights?
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:48 pm

rbavfan wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
OAK-HNL-OGG-OAK.
That is almost as sensational as CONUS/HI.
And makes CONUS-OGG-HNL-CONUS a matter of time.
Fare war HNL/OGG?
Even if the same fare... a real mainline seat in Y on WN, not the VY FR U2 experience on HA's B712s.


Heres a hint the 712's do not fly Hawaii-Mainland, the A330/A321 do and those are better pitch & seat. They don't need a long range higher comfort seat on 15 min inter island flights.


I need a higher comfort seat. OGG, ITO, LIH... doesn't matter. My tush wants the cush.
I'm quite familiar with B712 performance, having flown them since EIS.
 
wnflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1990
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:03 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
While I'm probably the biggest fan of WN.
They can't even get MEX to work.
ETOPS will only take you to so many umbrellas drink American only vacationing destinations.
If MEX international ticket sales can't get figured out forget Western Europe or South America at this point in my mind.

Hopefully Hawaii works out good for them.

High hopes Flyguy


That might be because Mexico City is inland, other than being a big city it has nothing to offer. No beaches, no holiday vibe, etc. However Mexican destinations like Cancun and San José del Cabo are performing very well for them. Why is that? Beaches and holiday vibe. It just so happens that you can also find these things in Hawaii. A bit longer flight perhaps, but people will be checking it out.

Besides, Hawaii is a domestic flight while Mexico is international. That comes with the hustle of needing a passport and passing immigration. No need for that when going to Hawaii.


My point was using ETOPS for anything other than Hawaii like BWI-Europe or HOU/FLL-South America.(yes I know they don't need Etops for many markets) Because if they can't figure out how to do international ticket sales GK potential 50 new markets is dwindling down fast.
I'm beyond excited to see the LUV jets finally getting to Hawaii. But it's beyond mind boggling that they paid 500 million for a new RES system and still can't figure out how to do foreign sales. Everyone is always complaining not changing for bags is leaving millions on the table just think how much they're leaving without foreign ticket sales.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
wnflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1990
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:24 pm

texasdoc wrote:
Does anyone have insight into Southwest's likely flight schedule to Hawaii? The biggest advantage they have over say, Alaska and Hawaiian, is their huge domestic network and ability to feed connecting traffic into the Hawaii flights. That said, they can't connect passengers to Hawaii if they depart so early in the morning that connecting flights can't get there in time. But Southwest also doesn't do red-eye flights, which makes the timing tight to get from California to Hawaii back in the same day. Obviously aircraft could arrive mid or late afternoon in Hawaii and sit overnight, but that's not good for utilization. Just curious how they will handle this issue. Perhaps having an aircraft make the mainland-Hawaii flight once per day, then fly inter island will ultimately be the solution.


10 yrs ago during the first planned Hawaii expansion before it was Put on hold to Buy AirTran. WN already had plans to operate Red eyes from Hawaii only.
They sent out sample pairings information to help pass a side letter with the FA union so Hawaii could happen.
The first wave of Hawaii will be small nothing more than a few flights I imagine.
Going off their published flight schedule for Easter/Spring break with the inconsistent ETOPS birds thru OAK.
My best armchair planning is something like this for HNL.
OAK-HNL
08:00-10:55
18:00-20:55
22:00-00:55
HNL-OAK
07:30-16:45
12:30-20:45
14:00-23:55
By summer time I'm guessing you will probably see Inter island and red eyes.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:26 pm

Does anyone see WN able to do Hawaii from DEN? Would be a great way to compete with UA to lower fares to Hawaii for the rest of the country since a lot of flights connect in DEN.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:44 pm

Looks like you might be payload restricted to around 150 pax on the MAX. Haven't messed with the data, so don't take that number to the bank yet. Probably some fuel stops on the way back?
 
friendlyskies22
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: WN DEN...doubtful, DEN-HNL is 3365 mi and the MAX 8 shows 3550 mi range, probably less with all those free bags and ETOPS requirements. Plus UA is going from a 752 to 777 DEN-OGG, plus the HNL 777. Wide bodies rock.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:10 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
texasdoc wrote:
Does anyone have insight into Southwest's likely flight schedule to Hawaii? The biggest advantage they have over say, Alaska and Hawaiian, is their huge domestic network and ability to feed connecting traffic into the Hawaii flights. That said, they can't connect passengers to Hawaii if they depart so early in the morning that connecting flights can't get there in time. But Southwest also doesn't do red-eye flights, which makes the timing tight to get from California to Hawaii back in the same day. Obviously aircraft could arrive mid or late afternoon in Hawaii and sit overnight, but that's not good for utilization. Just curious how they will handle this issue. Perhaps having an aircraft make the mainland-Hawaii flight once per day, then fly inter island will ultimately be the solution.


10 yrs ago during the first planned Hawaii expansion before it was Put on hold to Buy AirTran. WN already had plans to operate Red eyes from Hawaii only.
They sent out sample pairings information to help pass a side letter with the FA union so Hawaii could happen.
The first wave of Hawaii will be small nothing more than a few flights I imagine.
Going off their published flight schedule for Easter/Spring break with the inconsistent ETOPS birds thru OAK.
My best armchair planning is something like this for HNL.
OAK-HNL
08:00-10:55
18:00-20:55
22:00-00:55
HNL-OAK
07:30-16:45
12:30-20:45
14:00-23:55
By summer time I'm guessing you will probably see Inter island and red eyes.

Flyguy



I very much doubt you will see more than one a day between OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN and HI. Look at HA and AS for a huge insight into how this will playout initially and for the for the first year at least. Launch from the mainland early/mid morning, with returns in the early afternoon. This is what 90% of the people want who are travelling from CA. No redeyes, very few mainland connections.

Re food - BeatofHawaii summed it up nicely -

Southwest galleys do not support the hot/cold food services as is customary with Hawaiian Airlines and others. There are no traditional chillers/ovens or food trolleys in their aircraft. Galley space is extremely limited. Thus, while we were told to definitely expect food on SWA, we believe it is going to work differently than on other airlines.

We predict Southwest Hawaii food options may include a buy-onboard (or perhaps free) snack box which does not require refrigeration. SWA had snack boxes on longer flights until about five years ago.


https://beatofhawaii.com/southwest-hawa ... ne-update/
Southeast Of Disorder
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:30 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
WN passed it's table top certification this week.
First Proving flight scheduled for Monday.

Using other airlines as examples VX released ticket sales the same day as it's first proving flight.

Will or will they be able to achievable the February 14 start date with a Expressed Fare sale.

Flyguy


Actually Tuesday. Start looking @ 7am local with a return the next day - also at departing @ 7am local. :)

Diversion flights are planned events, so no surprises. The first few flights are a simple over and back.


So maybe you could answer this.
According to sources the proving flights will be an actual online inbound ETOPS aircraft everyday this week starting Tuesday arriving from LAX at 07:00. The OAK ground crews will work the Turn as a real live ETOPS flight. Departure time said to be 0800-11:45 HNL (2hr turn) HNL 14:00-21:00 OAK.
And the bird will rotate back at 22:15 to LAX.
Wednesday the aircraft does an OAK-OGG-OAK.
Then Thursday it's OAK-HNL-OGG-OAK.
Friday and Saturday are planned diverts simulations.
I wonder if SJC,SMF or SAN will have to do a live ETOPS test flight?
For Inflight it's my understanding since ETOPS proving runs will not require any flight attendants since their procedures don't change from their normal routine.
Flyguy


I'm not seeing any of that. The a/c will ferry DAL-OAK on Monday, and RON. It will dept for HNL on Tuesday, RON and return HNL-DAL on Wednesday. I don't see anything else scheduled at this time. The flights are now showing 1100am departures from both OAK and HNL - a very exciting time for WN.

HNL-DAL is not an issue for an empty -800, especially eastbound.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
wnflyguy
Topic Author
Posts: 1990
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:38 pm

barney captain wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
barney captain wrote:

Actually Tuesday. Start looking @ 7am local with a return the next day - also at departing @ 7am local. :)

Diversion flights are planned events, so no surprises. The first few flights are a simple over and back.


So maybe you could answer this.
According to sources the proving flights will be an actual online inbound ETOPS aircraft everyday this week starting Tuesday arriving from LAX at 07:00. The OAK ground crews will work the Turn as a real live ETOPS flight. Departure time said to be 0800-11:45 HNL (2hr turn) HNL 14:00-21:00 OAK.
And the bird will rotate back at 22:15 to LAX.
Wednesday the aircraft does an OAK-OGG-OAK.
Then Thursday it's OAK-HNL-OGG-OAK.
Friday and Saturday are planned diverts simulations.
I wonder if SJC,SMF or SAN will have to do a live ETOPS test flight?
For Inflight it's my understanding since ETOPS proving runs will not require any flight attendants since their procedures don't change from their normal routine.
Flyguy


I'm not seeing any of that. The a/c will ferry DAL-OAK on Monday, and RON. It will dept for HNL on Tuesday, RON and return HNL-DAL on Wednesday. I don't see anything else scheduled at this time. The flights are now showing 1100am departures from both OAK and HNL - a very exciting time for WN.

HNL-DAL is not an issue for an empty -800, especially eastbound.


Thanks for the update.
Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:55 pm

Again, I do not see them doing any validations flights without the cabin fully staffed and maybe 40 to fifty seat fillers for he FA's to work with. Probably at least one in flight medical emergency along a cabin prep for ditching exercise. I assume (?) SW has done some special FA training for this kind of in flight. Might not be much medical, but the cabin prep for ditching can be significant. Don't know but I doubt that SWA has a cabin ditching sim?

An example of FAA oversight. North America to EGLL on a 777 ETOPS validation flight. Diverted into EINN and the engine required a bore scope for a further service sign off. No 777/RR bore scope tool could be found, and the airline had to charter an airplane and ferry one over to EINN from EGLL so as to pass the validation process. These FAA folks have a wicked imagination at times and if it's the FAA guy I'm thinking of, he will give you fits before it's over. Expect the unexpected best describes how this works.
 
mwmav8r01
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:19 pm

barney captain wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
ETOPS isn't just for Hawaii. It will be used to buildout new destinations no doubt..


Actually, as far as WN is concerned, ETOPS IS just for HI.

Nothing else is even on the horizon.


I highly doubt that. Management wont tip their hand... But expensive ETOPS just for low yielding? Maybe. But not likely.
 
texasdoc
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:42 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:22 pm

barney captain wrote:

I very much doubt you will see more than one a day between OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN and HI. Look at HA and AS for a huge insight into how this will playout initially and for the for the first year at least. Launch from the mainland early/mid morning, with returns in the early afternoon. This is what 90% of the people want who are travelling from CA. No redeyes, very few mainland connections.




Thanks. That is pretty much what I was expecting. Early to mid morning departures from California won't really allow time for connections. A lot of us hoping to fly to Hawaii on Southwest from points east of California may not be able to (at least not without an overnight stopover) until the schedule picks up, redeyes begin. etc.

Also, WN will easily be able to fly DEN or PHX to Hawaii with the 737 Max 7.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14550
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:35 pm

texasdoc wrote:
Thanks. That is pretty much what I was expecting. Early to mid morning departures from California won't really allow time for connections. A lot of us hoping to fly to Hawaii on Southwest from points east of California may not be able to (at least not without an overnight stopover) until the schedule picks up, redeyes begin. etc.


I expect at least one later westbound flight and early departure from Hawaii - they won’t schedule all of the flights right on top of each other. Those ought to allow at least some connections.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
friendlyskies22
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:48 pm

WN not getting -7s for 4 years....forget DEN-HNL...
 
texasdoc
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:42 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:59 pm

friendlyskies22 wrote:
WN not getting -7s for 4 years....forget DEN-HNL...



I'm reading that WN will take delivery of seven MAX 7's in 2019, with the first scheduled for January. Don't know if anything has changed since that was written.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:59 pm

Is SW proposing the 737-800 or the 737-8MAX, or both for starting the island service.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:00 pm

Double post
 
friendlyskies22
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:58 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:09 pm

my bad, you are correct, WN may have some -7s. I was reading where they deferred 23 units until 2023.
 
User avatar
jaybird
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:23 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:40 pm

WNCrew wrote:
usxguy wrote:
and car rentals. Overbooking & having to wait an hour + is the norm, even for those with top tier status.

https://www.kitv.com/story/39822423/hun ... y-runs-out



WOW... why does anyone bother flying there then if it's so awful?



That's certainly NOT the norm. One incident with Budget over the holidays who sent old cars back to the mainland when they had new cars on order. New new cars were delivered late. We have people on the neighbor islands almost ever day with car rentals - they are top tier with National - their documents are ready for them when they arrive - they have Emerald status - they go to the lot and pick out their own car from all the cars in that section and they're on their way. There isn't a general car issue in Hawaii.

Hotels are expensive because overall occupancy levels are in the mid-80s. If you don't have enough rooms the only way to increase revenue is to raise prices and they've all raised prices.

Airfares in general aren't low - early Jan to mid-Feb is off peak, mid-Feb to early May is peak (1st week of May is Golden Week in Japan which sees an influx of tourists) .. 2nd-week of May to mid-June is off-peak .. mid-June to the end of August is peak .. right after Labor Day to Thanksgiving is off peak .. early December is off peak .. Thanksgiving and Christmas are peak. If you plan ahead and are flexible with your travel periods - you can get some good airfares .. but if you go during peak period or at the last minute - you're going to pay a lot.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:43 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Does anyone see WN able to do Hawaii from DEN? Would be a great way to compete with UA to lower fares to Hawaii for the rest of the country since a lot of flights connect in DEN.


Short answer is no.
The reason I don't see WN starting DEN-HNL-DEN is because the flight would be weight restricted every day, especially the DEN-HNL leg of the flight. Some years ago UA operated this flight with a 757 and during DEN hot summer months we experienced weight restrictions. I think the 737-8MAX would be weight restricted because ETOPS regulations that require more fuel that what is normally loaded on a non-ETOPS flight of the same stage length. Normal everyday operations WN might be able to squeeze 150 passengers on the aircraft but that number might vary depending on the total number of bags. If every passenger checks in one bag they may not even be able to take 150 passengers and lets not forget the 737 wings tanks are not extremely large. Those wing tanks can only accommodate about 8500 pounds of fuel (depending on density) meaning a total of 17,000 pounds of fuel are in the wings, the remainder of it goes into the center tank which kills your ZFW and takes away weight needed to carry passengers and bags. During the dog days of summer when the temperatures exceed 85 or 90 degrees the problem is compounded exponentially. In the summer months if WN were ever to launch DEN-HNL using the 737-8MAX I wouldn't be surprised if the total number of passengers they could accommodate dropped down to 120-130 because of performance constraints brought on by the heat coupled with the fact the fuel tanks would be at max capacity.

The 737-8MAX is a great aircraft but I'm not sure Boeing had DEN-HNL in mind when they built this aircraft.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3483
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:32 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Is SW proposing the 737-800 or the 737-8MAX, or both for starting the island service.


The original plan, unless something has changed, was to start with the 800 before the MAX8 takes over as the aircraft for Hawaii flights.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2355
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:33 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Is SW proposing the 737-800 or the 737-8MAX, or both for starting the island service.


NG's initially, then the MAX at a later date.

Look for N8329B to be the first WN aircraft to touch Hawaiian soil. :)
Southeast Of Disorder
 
ytib
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:37 pm

barney captain wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Is SW proposing the 737-800 or the 737-8MAX, or both for starting the island service.


Look for N8329B to be the first WN aircraft to touch Hawaiian soil. :)


Looks like N8329B had a couple of Havana trips today prior to heading to DAL.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n8329b
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3483
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: WN and Hawaii.

Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:44 pm

barney captain wrote:
Look for N8329B to be the first WN aircraft to touch Hawaiian soil. :)


Sort of...



;)
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos