Runway28L
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:05 pm

So it looks like the A220 or E2 at UA isn’t going to happen anytime soon. Seems like picking up used A319s and converting CRJ7s to 50 seats makes more sense to them financially for working around the scope.

I think scope is part of the issue, but no one has mentioned commonality, where adding used aircraft and converting existing frames may have an edge in terms of costs vs adding a new fleet type, the latter of which UA seems reluctant to do. We saw this when they went for the 65 B73Gs over the A220/E2, until they eventually converted the order to larger MAXs.
 
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intotheair
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:11 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
I appreciate innovation and outside of the box thinking. I have no clue if this idea will work or not but this certainly is a clever use of resources.

United is scope limited in the 70ish seat arena, so they decide to take a run at the unlimited 50 seat category. They get to test the waters with a bunch of planes they already own, which will be converted by BBD, and if it works, BBD may have pumped a bit of life into their CRJ production line.

Good on United and BBD for trying something new.


And if UA doesn't see any benefit, we all know how quickly AA got rid of MRTC.


I think this is quite different than MRTC. All the seats that UA is adding are F and E+ seats that generally require a higher upfront fare. MRTC reduced Y seating but didn't increase Y fares with the hopes that it would encourage more brand loyalty. No passenger paid extra for MRTC.
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:51 pm

People despise flying 4 across Bombardiers for anything more than the shortest 1 hour flights.

I wonder what sort of stage lengths they plan on using these for? We all know regional flights are the first to be cancelled due to irregular ops. That reality should really increase the yield factor of these aircraft in the OPERATED by.... for United fleet.
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alasizon
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:55 pm

jetero wrote:
alasizon wrote:
jetero wrote:
How much more utilization can you really get out of aircraft at hubs that are highly banked again? I doubt that entered into the rationale.


The utilization comes from stage lengths that at existing turn times are unable to meet the bank in one direction or another. Freeing up 10-15 minutes allow those aircraft to now meet the banks.


Understood in concept--I guess examples would be helpful. I suppose the implication is that it would benefit longer stage lengths?

And do you think the onboard storage will really reduce turn times by 10-15 minutes?


I can't give any UA examples since I'm not a UA employee; however for an example, you can look at PHX-STS; on the outbound to STS the stage length forces the flight to depart at the very front of the bank and then it misses about half the bank when it comes back because of the stage length. As a result of the late arrival, the aircraft either has to long sit into the next bank before departing or depart late out of the bank (which can just compound the issue down the road).

Every hub will vary based on the timings and directional flow of given banks but there are probably a good handful of examples on each airline's hubs. If I had to guess the two hour stage length is probably the sweet spot for most hubs where this could improve utilization or revenue potential.

And yes, easily; the slowest portion of RJ boarding is the carry-on baggage storage in the forward bins on the CR7/CR9. You have people unaware that aren't ready to stow their bag or don't want to, those with laptops, etc. in the bag, and those that simply just take a while to turn the bag over. It should be able to improve the hub turn time by 10 minutes and outstation time by 5-10 minutes.
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airnorth
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:12 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
People despise flying 4 across Bombardiers for anything more than the shortest 1 hour flights.

I routinely fly them on stages over two hours on AC, very comfy, though overhead bin is small.
 
codc10
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:17 am

The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.

Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:27 am

codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.
Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.

It seems the range have been lowered to 900nm (2hrs?). If so, that would translate at about half the CR7 fuel load.

We just found that 10k lb MTOW savings right there.

FWIW: what's the weight of a galley?
 
amcnd
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:37 am

Bags in the cabin =0. Same bag with a green tag in the back =30. ThAt 1,500lbs there...
 
fun2fly
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:40 am

I really think UA has a winner here. PAX happier with seats, upgrades, E+, and bring on board your roller suitcase. As the last few posts have pointed out, the biggest benefit may be the lack of pax waiting for bags and/or missing flights on tight connections. I think this will also save UA $ financially on ground crew, etc. also. With a relatively small sub-fleet, I don't think there is much risk either.
 
alasizon
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:44 am

codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.

Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.


10k actually isn't though in this case. You're now no longer double counting the valet bags (since they are being stored on board).

At least 3,900 lbs is gone based on payload reduction (195 lbs/pax), plus at least 600 lbs is gone from the reduction of valet baggage (lets call it 20 bags at 30 lbs each). Dry weight will be less from the reduced # of seats (lets call it a reduction of 10 sets of coach seats, each of which weigh about 150 lbs) which is another 1500 lbs.

Before we even start reducing fuel load, that is already 6k.
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codc10
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:47 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.
Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.

It seems the range have been lowered to 900nm (2hrs?). If so, that would translate at about half the CR7 fuel load.

We just found that 10k lb MTOW savings right there.

FWIW: what's the weight of a galley?


Exactly my point... something along these lines:

Image

http://www.gcmap.com
 
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intotheair
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:50 am

airnorth wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
People despise flying 4 across Bombardiers for anything more than the shortest 1 hour flights.

I routinely fly them on stages over two hours on AC, very comfy, though overhead bin is small.


In my experience, the cabin improvements to the CRJ700, 900, and 1000 make a world of difference. It’s really only the CRJ200 with the higher floor, lower windows, and small overheads that’s terrible.
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c933103
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:57 am

max999 wrote:
jetero wrote:
max999 wrote:
If there are no changes other than rearranging the cabin then the new model number CRJ 550 is just marketing bullshit.


Of course it is. What does it matter?


I don't like marketing BS from any company because it's a way to raise prices, sell an infrerior product, or drum up sales while trying to hide a product's shortcomings.

In this case, bombardier is trying to revive a product with little to no sales. But instead of making real product improvements with substantial upgrades, they just added luggage racks and gave it a new model number. They hope that a new model number will somehow convince buyers it's a better product, but I don't think that it is better when compared to the likes of the E2 or A220.

Ironically, A220 was bombardier's baby until they had to sell it due to Boeing's political meddling when it came to tariffs. But that's a whole other topic.

A220 or E2 are much larger than 50 seats...
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QueenoftheSkies
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:08 am

Huge failure unless they can fill all those F seats with full fare F passengers......which is doubtful. Upgrades won’t cut it.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:18 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Huge failure unless they can fill all those F seats with full fare F passengers......which is doubtful. Upgrades won’t cut it.

United definitely knows which thin routes have the proper volume of business passagers to sustain these CRJ 550s.
Including current CR9/E175 routes that would be better served with a slightly smaller aircraft.
Or some current CR2/E145 routes where UA loses business customers to the competition - due to inferior eqpt.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: United orders 50 CRJ-550s, announces increased premium seating

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:24 am

Varsity1 wrote:


If DL did this out of ATL, BOS, DTW, LAX, and LGA it would be an ingenious game changer!
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:26 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Huge failure unless they can fill all those F seats with full fare F passengers......which is doubtful. Upgrades won’t cut it.

United definitely knows which thin routes have the proper volume of business passagers to sustain these CRJ 550s.
Including current CR9/E175 routes that would be better served with a slightly smaller aircraft.
Or some current CR2/E145 routes where UA loses business customers to the competition - due to inferior eqpt.


Even then how much could they possibly charge for fares on flights that aren’t that long...and a whopping 10 seats.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:29 am

jfklganyc wrote:
It is a scope thing.

They are hoping to get scope relief from Alpa under the new negotiations...

...They must feel pretty strongly that they’re going to get Scope relief


Interesting. I took this 70>50 seat RJ announcement just the other way - that they're not expecting scope relief.

I'd guess that the next UAExpress announcement will be more E175s in a 70 seat configuration to replace the CRJ-700s that are being converted to CRJ-550s.
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 am

FlyHossD wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It is a scope thing.

They are hoping to get scope relief from Alpa under the new negotiations...

...They must feel pretty strongly that they’re going to get Scope relief


Interesting. I took this 70>50 seat RJ announcement just the other way - that they're not expecting scope relief.

I'd guess that the next UAExpress announcement will be more E175s in a 70 seat configuration to replace the CRJ-700s that are being converted to CRJ-550s.


That announcement was already done, for the 1st 25 at least. XJT will be flying 25 175SC's for United.
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:38 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Even then how much could they possibly charge for fares on flights that aren’t that long...and a whopping 10 seats.

Those 10 seats would allow a constant product quality for someone continuing on to an international longhaul flights by exemple.

Otherwise, UA could lose the whole trip to the competition offering F on all the segments.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:38 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Huge failure unless they can fill all those F seats with full fare F passengers......which is doubtful. Upgrades won’t cut it.

United definitely knows which thin routes have the proper volume of business passagers to sustain these CRJ 550s.
Including current CR9/E175 routes that would be better served with a slightly smaller aircraft.
Or some current CR2/E145 routes where UA loses business customers to the competition - due to inferior eqpt.


Even then how much could they possibly charge for fares on flights that aren’t that long...and a whopping 10 seats.


These are likely “loss-leaders” to secure business that they are completely missing out on. For example, XNA-ORD-HKG (which is a cited example from United) United completely misses out on the opportunity in this market due to lack of F. The traffic volume doesn’t warrant 70+ seats, but a 50 seater with F class can secure paid premium seats on ORD-HKG. They will make all the money on the onward connection, and can get that traffic by having a premium product on the full itenerary.
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VC10er
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:03 am

I’m one of the idiots who chooses to pay more for F. Business yes, but I own my business. Even if the client only covers Y, I’ll pony up the rest. Frankly I am really looking forward to seeing and flying one.
What will happen to the many E175’s coming? Will they be Premium heavy as well?
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ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:17 am

VC10er wrote:
What will happen to the many E175’s coming? Will they be Premium heavy as well?

A 50 seat E175 would be too restricted at 65 000 lbs MTOW. It is just too heavy to start with.
CR7s are lighter.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:42 am

This is OT, but thinking about what UA most likely want to get out of scope negotiations, I think that they are going to try and get ALPA to agree to scope based on a percentage of mainline narrowbody aircraft overall, as opposed to tying scope to a 'small' narrowbody. The current scope is a copy/paste job of Delta's agreement, but UA have made it clear that don't think E90/717/A220 are not viable at mainline costs. Nonetheless both the 737 and A319 fleets have grown since the agreement was signed, meaning more mainline jobs. Going for a percentage method would basically mean that if they park mainline frames then they have to park large RJs, whereas Delta's agreement (and United's) actually gives them the flexibility to - for example - park all A320s or 737s but not have to park large RJs so long as there are at least 88 717s/A220s. Overall tying RJ to mainline narrowbody frames more generally probably gives the pilots more certainty, at least that's what United will argue. Whether ALPA agree remains to be seen.
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Fargo
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:49 am

ordbosewr wrote:
Clearly, UA does not see the economics of the 100 seat beating this approach.

This does address a customer satisfaction point for many smaller markets in ORD and EWR, we want first class and E+ seating. This accomplishes that. It should also allow the turn times to decrease as luggage handling should be just checked luggage only. (if the added interior spaces work as discussed/planned).

I like it, but I do get the economics aspect, this is a special plane for a special mission. I suspect that this 50 plan test is just that. A test, they can see if it works both operationally, economically and satisfaction wise. If all of those aspects come to together like the theory they have then maybe we will see more conversations.

While I think this is nice, I do not see this as a full 100% replacement for all current 50 seat markets (which is what the flighglobal article says). I see this for some routes that have 50 seaters and need premium seating, due to connections or the like.


And this is what I don't understand. DL makes 100 seaters it work just fine, why can't UA? Given UA's large presence in top business markets (EWR, ORD, SFO, etc), they need it more than any of the US3 IMO. They can produce all the "premium configured" 50 seaters they want, but they aren't going to improve domestic margins until they do some serious upgauging to planes with lower CASM. It would be better to do this on the E2 with 100-110 seats and then they can get more E75's, which could also be configured with more premium seats.

I can't see how this is going to produce higher overall RASM. The more I think about it, this is just kicking the can down the road.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:51 am

Just got that info from a regional driver:
A CR7 burns only about 3400 pounds per hour, compared to 3000pph for the CR2.

Not that much more really.

Now, if this CR7's MTOW is lowered to 65k lbs (from 75k lbs), that should further reduce this 3400pph...
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
Fargo
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:53 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
The current scope is a copy/paste job of Delta's agreement, but UA have made it clear that don't think E90/717/A220 are not viable at mainline costs.


I for one would to know their rationale behind this thinking. Considering their large presence in key business markets, do they not realize they could gain a significant advantage if they added it, particularly at their hometown hub of ORD?
 
airzona11
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:53 am

This is very cool to see from avgeek perspective. The industry was plagued by airlines making bad choices, copy cat mentality, then BK, then consolidation. It was all of the same. Airlines are now finally diversifying/stratifying their offering. UA is making the changes to leverage/go after the premium passengers that reside in their hubs/fly to their hubs. Good stuff.
 
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:02 am

alasizon wrote:
jetero wrote:
alasizon wrote:

The utilization comes from stage lengths that at existing turn times are unable to meet the bank in one direction or another. Freeing up 10-15 minutes allow those aircraft to now meet the banks.


Understood in concept--I guess examples would be helpful. I suppose the implication is that it would benefit longer stage lengths?

And do you think the onboard storage will really reduce turn times by 10-15 minutes?


I can't give any UA examples since I'm not a UA employee; however for an example, you can look at PHX-STS; on the outbound to STS the stage length forces the flight to depart at the very front of the bank and then it misses about half the bank when it comes back because of the stage length. As a result of the late arrival, the aircraft either has to long sit into the next bank before departing or depart late out of the bank (which can just compound the issue down the road).

Every hub will vary based on the timings and directional flow of given banks but there are probably a good handful of examples on each airline's hubs. If I had to guess the two hour stage length is probably the sweet spot for most hubs where this could improve utilization or revenue potential.

And yes, easily; the slowest portion of RJ boarding is the carry-on baggage storage in the forward bins on the CR7/CR9. You have people unaware that aren't ready to stow their bag or don't want to, those with laptops, etc. in the bag, and those that simply just take a while to turn the bag over. It should be able to improve the hub turn time by 10 minutes and outstation time by 5-10 minutes.


Thanks :bigthumbsup:
 
jetero
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:03 am

alasizon wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.

Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.


10k actually isn't though in this case. You're now no longer double counting the valet bags (since they are being stored on board).

At least 3,900 lbs is gone based on payload reduction (195 lbs/pax), plus at least 600 lbs is gone from the reduction of valet baggage (lets call it 20 bags at 30 lbs each). Dry weight will be less from the reduced # of seats (lets call it a reduction of 10 sets of coach seats, each of which weigh about 150 lbs) which is another 1500 lbs.

Before we even start reducing fuel load, that is already 6k.


Thanks x2 (even though I didn't ask that one) :bigthumbsup:
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:16 am

alasizon wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.

Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.


10k actually isn't though in this case. You're now no longer double counting the valet bags (since they are being stored on board).

At least 3,900 lbs is gone based on payload reduction (195 lbs/pax), plus at least 600 lbs is gone from the reduction of valet baggage (lets call it 20 bags at 30 lbs each). Dry weight will be less from the reduced # of seats (lets call it a reduction of 10 sets of coach seats, each of which weigh about 150 lbs) which is another 1500 lbs.

Before we even start reducing fuel load, that is already 6k.

I think you're overestimating the weight of a double tourist class seat; from memory, 150 lbs is the weight of a triple seat.
In any case, the weight from those seats removed will be "compensated" by the heavier First Class seats (and 10 of them is a lot of seats) plus the weight of the baggage closet (I guess the structure/walls will be subject to the same regulations as arresting barriers in cargo or combi aircraft).
I think that last 1,500 lbs "block" will end up being much less than that.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It is a scope thing.

They are hoping to get scope relief from Alpa under the new negotiations...

...They must feel pretty strongly that they’re going to get Scope relief


Interesting. I took this 70>50 seat RJ announcement just the other way - that they're not expecting scope relief.

I'd guess that the next UAExpress announcement will be more E175s in a 70 seat configuration to replace the CRJ-700s that are being converted to CRJ-550s.


That announcement was already done, for the 1st 25 at least. XJT will be flying 25 175SC's for United.


As I recall, the 25 new XJT E175s (in a 70 seat configuration) are to replace CRJ-700s that are leaving the fleet (to AA?). Or is my memory failing me?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:36 am

FlyHossD wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:

Interesting. I took this 70>50 seat RJ announcement just the other way - that they're not expecting scope relief.

I'd guess that the next UAExpress announcement will be more E175s in a 70 seat configuration to replace the CRJ-700s that are being converted to CRJ-550s.


That announcement was already done, for the 1st 25 at least. XJT will be flying 25 175SC's for United.


As I recall, the 25 new XJT E175s (in a 70 seat configuration) are to replace CRJ-700s that are leaving the fleet (to AA?). Or is my memory failing me?


Something was going to have to leave the fleet, until this announcement came. Now, these 25 CR7's are 50 seat jets and don't count against large scope. Gojet has no AA flying lined up.
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alasizon
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:48 am

WayexTDI wrote:
alasizon wrote:
codc10 wrote:
The aircraft will be significantly payload-restricted over the standard CR7, so don't expect to see the CR5 on anything but 90 min or less stage lengths, and probably shorter. I also wouldn't anticipate seeing it in DEN, either.

Even with 20 fewer seats, 10k is a lot of weight to shed.


10k actually isn't though in this case. You're now no longer double counting the valet bags (since they are being stored on board).

At least 3,900 lbs is gone based on payload reduction (195 lbs/pax), plus at least 600 lbs is gone from the reduction of valet baggage (lets call it 20 bags at 30 lbs each). Dry weight will be less from the reduced # of seats (lets call it a reduction of 10 sets of coach seats, each of which weigh about 150 lbs) which is another 1500 lbs.

Before we even start reducing fuel load, that is already 6k.

I think you're overestimating the weight of a double tourist class seat; from memory, 150 lbs is the weight of a triple seat.
In any case, the weight from those seats removed will be "compensated" by the heavier First Class seats (and 10 of them is a lot of seats) plus the weight of the baggage closet (I guess the structure/walls will be subject to the same regulations as arresting barriers in cargo or combi aircraft).
I think that last 1,500 lbs "block" will end up being much less than that.


You're correct on that, its pretty close to 100 lbs for a double seat (I just went and pulled the specs). The one thing I didn't account for is the overhead bin structures that would no longer be required so that may return a couple hundred pounds as well. I stand by that overall your dry weight reduction is close to 1500 lbs once you factor in the less PSUs, less overhead bins and less seats. The added F isn't that much different, these planes already have F in them and the seats don't actually weigh that much since the amenities are relatively minimal. Its only an increase of four seats.

I just pulled up the dry weight of an existing CR7 that is operating a 900 mile route today (config'd with 65 seats), its currently at 45.5k. Lets assume we cut that down to 44k, that would leave us 21k for payload and fuel. Assuming a payload of 11k; that would leave us with 10k worth of fuel which should be enough to carry the lighter plane about 1,000-1,200 miles, WX depending.

When it comes to the baggage structures, I actually suspect it won't actually be any different than existing wardrobes/closets and overhead bins which are subject to existing requirements when it comes to stopping the baggage movement in event of an accident. Based on the layout, it looks like there will be a mid-cabin bulkhead that makes up one of those walls.
Manager on Duty & Tower Planner
 
ryanov
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:45 am

gwrudolph wrote:
I don’t know, maybe it is just me but I find the employees at the regional carriers to be much nicer and friendlier than their mainline counterparts. I flew into MDT a few months ago on the last flight on The pilots helped passengers to identify their cabin checked bags on the jetway by holding them under one at a time and calling out the color. I thought it was a really nice gesture and appreciation of our business

It's pretty well known by now that these airlines have less experienced pilots who have absurd commutes because they can't afford to live near their bases. I don't know if anything has changed in the last 5 years or so -- I know the 1500 hour created a pilot shortage -- but that's how it was. I'm not interested in putting my money into that.

Another poster mentioned that Delta outsources quite a bit of flying. It's true, but I don't book tickets on those flights, and so far that has not impacted me in any real way (have sometimes needed to take a different departure or make a connection). It sends me through Atlanta a lot, but that's fine by me.

I fly 50-60 times a year some years, and I believe I've only been on a regional jet 4 times. I don't want to support that sort of thing, which is also why I don't fly Norwegian. Some premium seats is not an enticement (nor is this "let's wait out the scope clause" stuff people are suggesting is the case).
 
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asqx
Posts: 658
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:49 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Just got that info from a regional driver:
A CR7 burns only about 3400 pounds per hour, compared to 3000pph for the CR2.


Pulled up a pair of releases for today, one for a 200, one for a 700, on the same route. For a 42 minute flight on the same planned routing, the 700 burn was 2968 and the 200 burn was 2199, a difference of 769 lbs of fuel. The 700s do burn more in climb but they do get to altitude quicker so the difference in climb is only about 200 lbs.

Granted my airline tends to fly the 200s slower than the 700 (largely due to shorter stage lengths), but our 700s run closer to 1000 pph more than the 200 in cruise on average.
 
ryanov
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: United orders 50 CRJ-550s, announces increased premium seating

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:50 am

nomorerjs wrote:
If DL did this out of ATL, BOS, DTW, LAX, and LGA it would be an ingenious game changer!

To replace what?
 
jetero
Posts: 4457
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:50 am

ryanov wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
I don’t know, maybe it is just me but I find the employees at the regional carriers to be much nicer and friendlier than their mainline counterparts. I flew into MDT a few months ago on the last flight on The pilots helped passengers to identify their cabin checked bags on the jetway by holding them under one at a time and calling out the color. I thought it was a really nice gesture and appreciation of our business

It's pretty well known by now that these airlines have less experienced pilots who have absurd commutes because they can't afford to live near their bases. I don't know if anything has changed in the last 5 years or so -- I know the 1500 hour created a pilot shortage -- but that's how it was. I'm not interested in putting my money into that.

Another poster mentioned that Delta outsources quite a bit of flying. It's true, but I don't book tickets on those flights, and so far that has not impacted me in any real way (have sometimes needed to take a different departure or make a connection). It sends me through Atlanta a lot, but that's fine by me.

I fly 50-60 times a year some years, and I believe I've only been on a regional jet 4 times. I don't want to support that sort of thing, which is also why I don't fly Norwegian. Some premium seats is not an enticement (nor is this "let's wait out the scope clause" stuff people are suggesting is the case).


A) some people don’t have much of a choice

B) you’re obviously a *very special* outlier, to say the least
 
ryanov
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:05 am

I don't know that people don't have much of a choice, but if you're right, this move is clearly not related to the passenger experience.
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1012
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:36 am

jetero wrote:
A) some people don’t have much of a choice

B) you’re obviously a *very special* outlier, to say the least


Comment of the day! (And much nicer than I would have put it.)
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
UALFAson
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:41 am

ryanov wrote:
I don't know that people don't have much of a choice, but if you're right, this move is clearly not related to the passenger experience.


I live in BNA, where some or all DL flights throughout the day to BOS, LGA, DTW, MSP, and SLC are operated by regional jet-flying Connection partners. You're saying you would rather fly at inconvenient times or make a connection through ATL, adding hours to your travel time, over taking a nonstop just to avoid partner-operated regional jet aircraft?

If so, you do you, boo, but you have to be aware that the overwhelming majority of business travelers do not follow such a whimsical notion.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
LH658
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:06 am

AC CRJ that fly from YYC to IAH are nice 34inch seat pitch in economy.
 
slowrambler
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:21 am

I somewhat question the argument that it's going to be much faster to get carry-on bags in this configuration - bottlenecks seem likely as people store their bags in the closets and retrieve them at the end of flight. Pity the poor person in the back of the Y section who has nothing in the closets but can't get out of the plane until everyone in front of them has extracted their bag...
 
max999
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Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:46 am

mcdu wrote:
max999 wrote:
jetero wrote:

How exactly is this an “inferior product”?


In the particular paragraph you're referencing, I'm writing in generalities how companies use marketing BS to cover for a bad product.

My next paragraph states the E2 and A220 are better than the CRJ. I think they are better because they are current generation aircraft while the CRJ hasn't seen substantial upgrades in a number of years.


Isn’t the world driven by marketing? You buy the new iPhone because Apple markets it as better and more capable. Is it really that much better?

Only in the world of anet could adding comfort to a product be deemed a bad thing.


There are no product improvement and increased comfort with the 550. It's the same narrow CRJ body width, same low ceiling, same tiny lavatory, and same seat pitch. The only real innovation here is the ability to fly within the scope clause without using the old 200; which is not something UA would market to the consumer. My take: removing seats from the existing 700 and claiming it as a great new product is marketing BS.

If you take an existing 700... Removed a bunch of seats and installed luggage racks. Does that make it a 550? UA's competitor could do exactly that and claim they also have a brand new CRJ 550 in their fleet.

You used the iPhone as an example. When Apple released the X, they correctly marketed it as a new product because of substantial new engineered features. OLED screen, face id.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 am

I love how if this was Delta configuring their aircraft like this everyone would love it but since it's UA everyone has to bash it. I'm pretty sure UA management has some clue what their doing.
 
DayFreighter
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:34 pm

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:27 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I love how if this was Delta configuring their aircraft like this everyone would love it but since it's UA everyone has to bash it. I'm pretty sure UA management has some clue what their doing.


Exactly. It's disappointing to see such a negative reaction to an improvement in passenger experience. But the armchair economists know more than UA's own people apparently.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2815
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: United orders 50 CRJ-550s, announces increased premium seating

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
seat1a wrote:
What would be premium routes from ORD that warrant the CRJ550? LNK? ICT? Or perhaps a shuttle service to MCI?


Probably routes like:

HSV-ORD
MLI-ORD
XNA-ORD
CID-ORD
TYS-ORD
ROA-ORD
LEX-ORD
ABE-ORD
FSD-ORD
TVC-ORD
SGF-ORD
CRW-ORD

These are all very high fare routes, and for the most part are somewhere between 1-2 hour flights currently flown mostly on 50 seaters.

Obviously some routes like these are possible as well, since most of these larger routes don't see that much mainline, or still see a decent amount of 50 seaters:
CMH-ORD
STL-ORD
IND-ORD
CVG-ORD



A lot of the above flights are under one hour. Lets see if UAX can maintain an acceptable on-time arrivals percentage. Its much more important for someone flying for business to actually get to where they need to get on-time then to have a self serve bar on a 50 minute flight.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1522
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:54 pm

max999 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
max999 wrote:

In the particular paragraph you're referencing, I'm writing in generalities how companies use marketing BS to cover for a bad product.

My next paragraph states the E2 and A220 are better than the CRJ. I think they are better because they are current generation aircraft while the CRJ hasn't seen substantial upgrades in a number of years.


Isn’t the world driven by marketing? You buy the new iPhone because Apple markets it as better and more capable. Is it really that much better?

Only in the world of anet could adding comfort to a product be deemed a bad thing.


There are no product improvement and increased comfort with the 550. It's the same narrow CRJ body width, same low ceiling, same tiny lavatory, and same seat pitch. The only real innovation here is the ability to fly within the scope clause without using the old 200; which is not something UA would market to the consumer. My take: removing seats from the existing 700 and claiming it as a great new product is marketing BS.

If you take an existing 700... Removed a bunch of seats and installed luggage racks. Does that make it a 550? UA's competitor could do exactly that and claim they also have a brand new CRJ 550 in their fleet.

You used the iPhone as an example. When Apple released the X, they correctly marketed it as a new product because of substantial new engineered features. OLED screen, face id.


You do realize that the seat pitch is going to be greater? Also the CRJ fuselage is the same as the luxury business jet Challenger series. So it depends on what you put in it to make it a cattle car or luxury. This is closer to the later. But the good thing this is a world of choices and you are free to make your own if this doesn’t work for you. I suspect the majority will like this change.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2815
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:57 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
I love how if this was Delta configuring their aircraft like this everyone would love it but since it's UA everyone has to bash it. I'm pretty sure UA management has some clue what their doing.


There is a reason why DL hasnt done this first, they are probably very leery of a program that allows FA's to do less work. As I mentioned above, a 50 minute flight, who really cares about self serve snacks and a self serve bar. This is just another excuse for a lazy flight attendant to sit for 45 minutes and do very little. What airline wants that? You get much better customer service from interacting as opposed to a 'self serve' bar. A self serve bar on a ULH, that should be a must but on a regional jet that is in the air for 45 minutes? Please....Very bad for customer service. I guess UA doesnt put much faith in its FA's on these shorter flights.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2815
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Reuters: United to add premium seats on regional and mainline jets

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:09 pm

mcdu wrote:
[
You do realize that the seat pitch is going to be greater? e.


Well, when we are talking something that had pretty horrible seat pitch to begin with, that doesnt say much,

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