dampfnudel
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:39 am

Flew on my first ATR a few months ago from JHM to HNL on ‘Ohana by Hawaiian (N805HC). It was a relatively smooth flight and noise levels were okay.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:44 am

ELBOB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The ATRs also had an issue with safety records in freezing temps because of one big crash in the 1990s with a base at ORD.


For the bazillionth time: the ATR met all FAA icing certification requirements.

Now you might take the position that those requirements were insufficient, but the ATR successfully operated in freezing conditions elsewhere around the globe.


The fault was with the crew. Then you can add that ATR failed to provide sufficient training and disclosure, but again, not holding (or flying for that sake) in freezing rain in a turboprop is basic knowledge, and other ATR operators knew not to do it.
 
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par13del
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:53 pm

Good thing about the ATR era for AA in Miami was that you got a bus ride on the ramp watching all the other a/c close up ramp side, lost that when I changed jobs.
 
flylowhou
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:22 pm

I flew them many times from TJMZ to TJSJ (SJU). Those PW's were music to my ears!
 
OB1504
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:15 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
B6 was part of it but the combination of runway expansions and the better runway performance of newer aircaft (the 738 in AA's case) is also a large part of what killed the hub. There aren't too many airports left in the Caribbean whose runways cannot support a fully loaded 738 to MIA. Places like EIS could not and cannot support a hub by themselves.


I can’t recall if the SJU hub was completely shut down by the time the LAA A319s started flying out of MIA in late 2014, but the A319 has since become AA’s aircraft of choice for opening new Caribbean markets out of MIA.

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Didn't they also begin nonstops on RJ's from MIA also making the SJU hub less relevant? I know it was still there in 2000 as TWA opened their SJU focus city then with help from the PR government as a way to ensure that if AA had another strike it wouldn't decimate the local economy. B6 started expanding a bit after that but the draw down had pretty much already begun. They were filling a gap left by AA rather than taking on AA.


They did have ERJs at MIA, but if I recall correctly it was only a handful of Caribbean destinations that got RJ service. I don’t think it would’ve been enough to truly render SJU obsolete. AA didn’t start mass deployment of RJs to the Caribbean until after Republic E175s arrived at MIA at the end of 2014. By then JetBlue was well established and AA started a codeshare agreement with Seaborne Airlines to fill in any gaps.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:35 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
I feel like I vaguely remember that issues with icing and accidents resulting, meant that American ended up moving a lot of them if not all south to warmer climates, which I believe if that’s the case it meant that the aircraft could not really be deployed nationwide and would be restricted within the airlines network and operations, which could be one of the factors they decided to ditch the aircraft.

Like I said I vaguely recall this information somewhere however I could be wrong, if so correct me!


This, probably among some other factors.

After 4184, American moved all the ATR's to their DFW/MIA/SJU hubs, with them mainly operating out of MIA/SJU. After the introduction of the E145's with longer range/more versatility and closure of the SJU hub, the ATR's served really no useful purpose and were retired.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
N649DL
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:34 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The ATRs also had an issue with safety records in freezing temps because of one big crash in the 1990s with a base at ORD.


For the bazillionth time: the ATR met all FAA icing certification requirements.

Now you might take the position that those requirements were insufficient, but the ATR successfully operated in freezing conditions elsewhere around the globe.


The fault was with the crew. Then you can add that ATR failed to provide sufficient training and disclosure, but again, not holding (or flying for that sake) in freezing rain in a turboprop is basic knowledge, and other ATR operators knew not to do it.


Doesn't matter who's fault it was, AA moved them down to warmer hubs as a result of the crash.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:08 am

VSMUT wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
N649DL wrote:
The ATRs also had an issue with safety records in freezing temps because of one big crash in the 1990s with a base at ORD.


For the bazillionth time: the ATR met all FAA icing certification requirements.

Now you might take the position that those requirements were insufficient, but the ATR successfully operated in freezing conditions elsewhere around the globe.


The fault was with the crew. Then you can add that ATR failed to provide sufficient training and disclosure, but again, not holding (or flying for that sake) in freezing rain in a turboprop is basic knowledge, and other ATR operators knew not to do it.


It was NOT the fault of the crew... the ice ridge formation was NOT known behavior even IN icing conditions, nor was it within human capability to correct the roll once the airflow was disrupted. ATRs were flown in icing before that without the same reaction due to rare conditions present on that day. Large droplet freezing precipitation is not a common occurrence, and all the indications the crew had were that the anti-ice systems WERE handling it. The ATR did pass certification in the US, Europe, Japan, etc just fine as that specific incidence was not in the certification requirements... Roselawn type icing was unfortunately just not something that was adequately researched or applied to designs at the time.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:27 am

Trans States flew the ATR-42 & ATR-72 out of STL as Trans World Express & American Connection from the 1980's to the mid 2000's without incident.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:42 am

northstardc4m wrote:
It was NOT the fault of the crew... the ice ridge formation was NOT known behavior even IN icing conditions, nor was it within human capability to correct the roll once the airflow was disrupted. ATRs were flown in icing before that without the same reaction due to rare conditions present on that day. Large droplet freezing precipitation is not a common occurrence, and all the indications the crew had were that the anti-ice systems WERE handling it. The ATR did pass certification in the US, Europe, Japan, etc just fine as that specific incidence was not in the certification requirements... Roselawn type icing was unfortunately just not something that was adequately researched or applied to designs at the time.


It WAS the fault of the crew. They were flying in freezing rain conditions, and did nothing to escape it. This is extremely basic knowledge.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:35 pm

Except that:

They weren't flying in freezing rain they were flying in icing conditions which isn't a rare occurrence near Chicago or in any other number of countless busy airports in the world. They had the anti ice system on and it was working as designed. It was not the first time that crew had run into ice.

If you think flying in icing conditions is unusual you need to learn that it is in fact common and not something that will cause anything unsafe in almost every case. But like everything crews are trained to know what amount of ice accumulation is safe or not and in the case here they were well under the limit of what the aircraft should of been able to handle. The crew was aware or the ice and was monitoring it as they were trained to do and had done before.

What wasn't usual on that day was the size of the water droplets or their behavior after hitting the deicing boots on the leading edge of the wing that caused the ice ridge in front of the aileron to form behind the boot.

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Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:17 pm

And just so we are all on the same page here, from the official NTSB Accident Report, https://ntsb.gov/investigations/Acciden ... R9601.aspx :
--------------------------------
Probable Cause
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable causes of this accident were the loss of control, attributed to a sudden and unexpected aileron hinge moment reversal that occurred after a ridge of ice accreted beyond the deice boots because: 1) ATR failed to completely disclose to operators, and incorporate in the ATR 72 airplane flight manual, flightcrew operating manual and flightcrew training programs, adequate information concerning previously known effects of freezing precipitation on the stability and control characteristics, autopilot and related operational procedures when the ATR 72 was operated in such conditions; 2) the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation’s inadequate oversight of the ATR 42 and 72, and its failure to take the necessary corrective action to ensure continued airworthiness in icing conditions; and 3) the French Directorate General for Civil Aviation's failure to provide the Federal Aviation Administration with timely airworthiness information developed from previous ATR incidents and accidents in icing conditions, as specified under the Bilateral Airworthiness Agreement and Annex 8 of the International Civil Aviation Organization.

Contributing to the accident were: 1) the Federal Aviation Administration’s failure to ensure that aircraft icing certification requirements, operational requirements for flight into icing conditions, and Federal Aviation Administration published aircraft icing information adequately accounted for the hazards that can result from flight in freezing rain and other icing conditions not specified in 14 Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25, Appendix C; and 2) the Federal Aviation Administration's inadequate oversight of the ATR 42 and 72 to ensure continued airworthiness in icing conditions.

-------------------------------

Please, where is the mention of the crew being at fault?
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
N649DL
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:54 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
B6 was part of it but the combination of runway expansions and the better runway performance of newer aircaft (the 738 in AA's case) is also a large part of what killed the hub. There aren't too many airports left in the Caribbean whose runways cannot support a fully loaded 738 to MIA. Places like EIS could not and cannot support a hub by themselves.


I can’t recall if the SJU hub was completely shut down by the time the LAA A319s started flying out of MIA in late 2014, but the A319 has since become AA’s aircraft of choice for opening new Caribbean markets out of MIA.

TWFlyGuy wrote:
Didn't they also begin nonstops on RJ's from MIA also making the SJU hub less relevant? I know it was still there in 2000 as TWA opened their SJU focus city then with help from the PR government as a way to ensure that if AA had another strike it wouldn't decimate the local economy. B6 started expanding a bit after that but the draw down had pretty much already begun. They were filling a gap left by AA rather than taking on AA.


They did have ERJs at MIA, but if I recall correctly it was only a handful of Caribbean destinations that got RJ service. I don’t think it would’ve been enough to truly render SJU obsolete. AA didn’t start mass deployment of RJs to the Caribbean until after Republic E175s arrived at MIA at the end of 2014. By then JetBlue was well established and AA started a codeshare agreement with Seaborne Airlines to fill in any gaps.


SJU was closed was before that, back in 2009-2010. It was at the expense of the A306 lease returns and retirements.

The LAA 319 certainly does some LatAm flying out of MIA but the hub has recently been big on retaining 757 and 763 routes as well.
 
Cebo29
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:19 pm

Back in 1990, EI-CBC & CBD with Executive were the only ATR72’s with forward entrance...glad to hear some other operators had them too...thanks for the info
 
Bhoy
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:53 pm

Cebo29 wrote:
Executive Airlines d/b/a American Eagle had the first teo commercial ATR72’s 210...EI-CBC & EI-CBD...The only ATR72’s that loaded passengers through the front instead of the rear...and who can forget the Cimber Air viking ATR42’s we operated in the caribbean...ATR’s were readily available for regional routes when the regional jet didn’t exist until Comair introduced them in 1992...and they were perfect for caribbean routes...that’s why AMR ordered 100 of them in 1984


All ATR 72-201's loaded Pax through the front.

 
freakyrat
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:27 am

I flew on the ATR72 between SBN and ORD. One thing about the ATR is those big props helped to slow the aircraft down on final making them easy to work for the controllers. The aircraft could be flown balls to the wall in the pattern then increase prop pitch and drop the gear and slowed for landing.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:47 am

FlyHossD wrote:
FLYSPI wrote:

Touche'. We had -72s at Trans States that were 68 seats, but recalling now I think Eagle's were a bit smaller in capacity...

...the general thought in the US that turboprop = old plane = unsafe.

This is very true and it drives me nuts. I grew up in the turboprop regional age. When you lived in a small town like I do, you got on a Metro, a 1900, a J31 or maybe a Brasilia or Saab and you flew to a hub and got on a 727, 737 (insert classic jet here). We had smaller airplanes but we had 6-12 flights a day to the hub (i,e time options) . Now cities like this have flights to the same hubs, and the same seat capacity but with larger RJs several times a day. It was always "I'm not getting on one of those puddle jumpers", or "that thing is rickity". I would always try to point out that that just because it had a prop spinning it was a jet engine making it spin, and compared to the 30 year old jets that were flying around back in the day, the turboprop they were about to get on was years newer than the big comfy jet they'd be connecting to. It's sad because a lot of cities aren't served anymore without turboprops. One could argue they created more traffic, and honestly I got out of the airline industry about the same time as turboprops were going away so I don't know if its better now than it was, but casually checking flightaware it seems like ORD is ground stopped just as much as it was. I would love to see a turboprop revival , but I know it'll probably never happen.


IIRC, the two CO-Ex ATR-72s in DEN (RMA) had 60 seats.

Also, I remember a yuppy telling his wife that the ATRs were converted World War II bombers. So I took him to the nearest ATR aircraft and showed him the Airworthiness Certificate - the airplane was less than 2 weeks old!

That is awesome. How did you get him on the ramp though?
 
Cebo29
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Re: Why did American Eagle get rid of the ATR 72/42

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:16 am

Executive Airlines ceased operations in SJU in April 2013

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