Belperflyer
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Bombardier launch new 50 seater CRJ550 based on CRJ700

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Big-time slow news day.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Is this more than a CRJ-700 rebranded to meet 50 seat scope clauses?

It doesn't seem like anything more at first look.

Lightsaber
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bradyj23
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:09 pm

I guess it is being discussed here.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1414845
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:13 pm

Folks, do not discuss moderation in an open forum, please see the forum rules. Since this is a new offering, it belongs outside a major UA thread.
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Devilfish
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:14 pm

They might have better prospects with a Q300NG with new cockpit and engines.....if they were not unloading their turboprop line. :airplane:
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KLASM83
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pm

It's appropriate to use a (heavily modified) callback from The Rocky Horror Picture Show here: "Same plane, different config, cheap company".

Even down an FA, I bet the CASM is gonna jump on that sucker. I just don't see this as being a permanent. It reminds me of the CRJ-440's that NWA Airlink had.
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factsonly
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:31 pm

.........United Airlines is the launch customer of this new model.

So it says in the Bombardier press release.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:38 pm

If I recall well the CRJ 700 was only marginally more expensive to operate than a CRJ 200 (like 10% more).

I'm convinced UA did its calculation and figured it will extract more profit overall in converting those 50 CRJ 700 into 50 seaters. (I'm sure many "business intensive" thin routes exits that would be profitably better served via à CRJ 550)
Furthermore, those "new" 550 will free up many precious 76 seaters for better use. (UA being obviously scoped out in 76 seaters).

Finally, the competitive pressure from Delta might have an impact...Delta's introduction of the A220 will improve big time the quality of its regional offering (cascading effect of upguaging 50 seaters to 76 seaters to A220s)
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:48 pm

From what I can tell this is a conversion of existing CRJ700s, comprimising two steps: 1. a cabin reconfig; 2. a paper de-rate on the seating limit and possibly design weights (MTOW etc) to make the aircraft compliant with scope clauses @ 50 seats. Interesting development but not new airframes from Mirabel I don't think.
 
tkoenig95
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:13 pm

Can't blame Bombardier with taking a previous frame and making something new of it. Look at the evolution of the 737 since 1967... As soon as scope clauses are pulled from the mainline unions this airplane will go full configuration without a doubt.
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:14 pm

It's warranted to question whether this is really a lasting 50-seat solution. These are well used aircraft, and the CASM is high, and the routes needing 10 first class seats low.

Let's not forget the timing. UA and their pilot group are in negotiations. And ALPA announced just days ago, that they are at an impasse over regional Scope. This looks more like a negotiation tactic to pressure ALPA than a true 50 seat solution.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Is this more than a CRJ-700 rebranded to meet 50 seat scope clauses?

It doesn't seem like anything more at first look.

Lightsaber


It’s a recertification, we still don’t know the exact specifics, so this is all speculation. We will just have to wait and seez The 3 class will definitely bring more revenue potential for UA. With all the premium seating and if they can actually fill the seats, I bet it’ll be far more profitable than a CRJ-200.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Is this more than a CRJ-700 rebranded to meet 50 seat scope clauses?

It doesn't seem like anything more at first look.

Lightsaber


It’s a recertification, we still don’t know the exact specifics, so this is all speculation. We will just have to wait and seez The 3 class will definitely bring more revenue potential for UA. With all the premium seating and if they can actually fill the seats, I bet it’ll be far more profitable than a CRJ-200.

But how many of these premium seat will be filled as "sold as premium" versus filled as "upgrade from lower fare"?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:23 pm

The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.
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trpmb6
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:27 pm

We seriously need to address the scope clause. It's resulting in airlines having to make choices like this which would otherwise be considered idiotic.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:31 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
From what I can tell this is a conversion of existing CRJ700s, comprimising two steps: 1. a cabin reconfig; 2. a paper de-rate on the seating limit and possibly design weights (MTOW etc) to make the aircraft compliant with scope clauses @ 50 seats. Interesting development but not new airframes from Mirabel I don't think.


What the 50 seater should have been 30 years ago.
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:45 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Finally, the competitive pressure from Delta might have an impact...Delta's introduction of the A220 will improve big time the quality of its regional offering (cascading effect of upguaging 50 seaters to 76 seaters to A220s)


I know they have different network strategies, but if this is the case, it begs the question as to why United wouldn’t just get a 190/5E2 or A220 to compete with Delta in this way. Surely paying mainline staff wages would be cheaper/less risky with a more efficient, modern plane than this gamble? I mean I hope it pays off and as someone toying with earning status with United, it alleviates some of my fears of not having premium options on the routes from CMH.
 
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:12 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
We seriously need to address the scope clause. It's resulting in airlines having to make choices like this which would otherwise be considered idiotic.


There is nothing stopping a mainline carrier from flying an airplane at mainline. Scope needs to be more restrictive than what it is now, to be honest.
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Super80Fan
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:14 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
We seriously need to address the scope clause. It's resulting in airlines having to make choices like this which would otherwise be considered idiotic.


There is nothing stopping United from flying any airplane they want at United...


No one is going to fly them. Why fly a CRJ under UA when you could make a lot more money flying an A320 or 737?
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RIP US Airways
 
leghorn
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:15 pm

First class in this plane must be very quiet during cruise. You are a long way away from the engines with luggage racks half way down the plane to soak up noise.
 
N292UX
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:23 pm

Nothing really new here. Basically a reconfigured CRJ-700. This may be the best bet when it comes to replacing the CRJ-200s, though.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:29 pm

Why do most of the new CRJs have different bins on the right side of the aircraft? (Sliding door bins)
 
alasizon
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:50 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Why do most of the new CRJs have different bins on the right side of the aircraft? (Sliding door bins)


Assuming you mean the inside overhead bins at the front of the aircraft, its a result of the "A" side being narrower since its only one seat wide.
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:52 pm

Finally a comfortable CRJ for once!
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
- Airbus A321neoLR and A321neoXLR
- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
- MITSUBUSHI MRJ

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Moosefire
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.
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wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:32 pm

Moosefire wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:52 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.


And at the end of the day, the pilots are the highest trained group of employees that take the longest amount of time to replace. So without pilots, you don't have an airline.
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leghorn
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:01 pm

without capital you don't have an airline. Pilots should get over themselves; they're just another factor of production.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:03 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.


The goal of 90% of pilots is to one day be a mainline pilot. Ergo, it benefits 90% of pilots by ensuring that a mainline job continues to be the creme de la creme. I love how you say “the only people” like it’s some exclusive group and there aren’t a just an absolutely huge number of mainline pilots.

leghorn wrote:
without capital you don't have an airline. Pilots should get over themselves; they're just another factor of production.


Yeah, and without diseases you don’t have any doctors! I dunno where these highly-trained, highly-regulated, highly-scrutinized people get off thinking they deserve to make money. Everyone should just make burritos and have everything handed to them.
Last edited by N766UA on Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
RamblinMan
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:17 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

There is nothing stopping United from flying any airplane they want at United...


No one is going to fly them. Why fly a CRJ under UA when you could make a lot more money flying an A320 or 737?


Because it's a job at United which has a future, versus a whipsaw'd job at a shitty regional? You don't see AA struggling to staff the 190, do you?


What is the hourly pay difference between an AA 190 vs an Eagle CR9 or E175?

The economics of 50-seaters was considered horrible to begin with. Now they're worse. I can't wrap my head around the notion that just flying the thing at mainline wouldn't be worth it to go from 50 to 70 seats. Same capital cost, marginally higher fuel consumption, 40% additional capacity. Just pay the damn pilots more and be done with it.
 
N766UA
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:23 pm

RamblinMan wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:

No one is going to fly them. Why fly a CRJ under UA when you could make a lot more money flying an A320 or 737?


Because it's a job at United which has a future, versus a whipsaw'd job at a shitty regional? You don't see AA struggling to staff the 190, do you?


What is the hourly pay difference between an AA 190 vs an Eagle CR9 or E175?

The economics of 50-seaters was considered horrible to begin with. Now they're worse. I can't wrap my head around the notion that just flying the thing at mainline wouldn't be worth it to go from 50 to 70 seats. Same capital cost, marginally higher fuel consumption, 40% additional capacity. Just pay the damn pilots more and be done with it.


I wanna say I saw DL’s mainline CRJ-900 pay rate somewhere at it was like double what they’re paying regional guys to fly it. If mainline pilots flew CRJ’s, you’d have to pay them mainline wages. If a CRJ is already in a precarious economic position, how is making them mainline and doubling your crew costs supposed to help? That said, what would it cost to make up that difference? 2$ a ticket?
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:30 pm

A seating configuration of 2-1 for the entire cabin of this 50 seater may actually give this beast a new lease on life on longer thinner routes.

Heck maybe SkyWest can jump in and become a supplier of regional equipment for JetBlue in places an A220 is too much airplane, once the Embraers are retired from the fleet.

Don’t shoot the messenger!!!
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lightsaber
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:31 pm

N766UA wrote:
RamblinMan wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Because it's a job at United which has a future, versus a whipsaw'd job at a shitty regional? You don't see AA struggling to staff the 190, do you?


What is the hourly pay difference between an AA 190 vs an Eagle CR9 or E175?

The economics of 50-seaters was considered horrible to begin with. Now they're worse. I can't wrap my head around the notion that just flying the thing at mainline wouldn't be worth it to go from 50 to 70 seats. Same capital cost, marginally higher fuel consumption, 40% additional capacity. Just pay the damn pilots more and be done with it.


I wanna say I saw DL’s mainline CRJ-900 pay rate somewhere at it was like double what they’re paying regional guys to fly it. If mainline pilots flew CRJ’s, you’d have to pay them mainline wages. If a CRJ is already in a precarious economic position, how is making them mainline and doubling your crew costs supposed to help? That said, what would it cost to make up that difference? 2$ a ticket?

It is not just pilot pay. It is station staffing levels, pay, and work rules (minimum hours per day). The total cost is unfortunately more.

Airlines charge what the market will bear. In other words, if they raise prices, most likely revenue drops.

What matters is UA (possibly others) think they'll make more money flying a premium 50-seater than an all economy 50-seater (total profit).

70 and 76 seats are still at RJ partners. Bombardier sees a market, so they are selling the aircraft to that market.

Mainline isn't efficient enough at AA with the E190. They are getting rid of them as they cannot make enough money to pay for those flights even though it is only a marginal capital cost, and marginally higher fuel and maintenance costs for double the capacity of a 50-seater. For AA, their smallest economical frame would probably be the A220-300. Again, all costs must be included which starts becoming high at out stations as regional pilots must work a lot of side jobs (e.g., help collect boarding passes or move luggage) that at a mainline they must hire 2 more people (one to collect the tickets and one to move bags) as those positions are in different unions and each union prohibits anyone not in their union from doing the job.

Lightsaber
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wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:32 pm

N766UA wrote:
The goal of 90% of pilots is to one day be a mainline pilot. Ergo, it benefits 90% of pilots by ensuring that a mainline job continues to be the creme de la creme. I love how you say “the only people” like it’s some exclusive group and there aren’t a just an absolutely huge number of mainline pilots.


Scope limits the number of regional pilot jobs available by limiting the amount of flying those regionals can do. Regional (i.e. new) pilots would objectively be better off without scope clauses, which only benefit the people who already have mainline jobs. You will not convince me that limiting regional job creation is somehow better for the industry as a whole because it gives those pilots who do get the (artificially limited number of) jobs "hope" that they might get a mainline job at an indeterminate date in the future.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:05 am

RamblinMan wrote:
The economics of 50-seaters was considered horrible to begin with. Now they're worse. (From a CRJ200 to this CRJ550)


For comparaison, look at what happened a while back when Bombardier took its 90 seat CRJ900 and made a 2/3 classes 76 seater out of it. The economics (CASM) also got worst, but we obtained an even bigger RASM as a result.

Why would that logic not be applicable in the 50 seats segment? Furthermore at very little capital cost as we're converting used CRJ700s. And most importantly, with current scope clauses that allow an unlimitted number of 50 seat aircrafts...

The timing is particularly good as current CRJ200 / ERJ145 are being cycled out and parked.
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
c933103
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:12 am

Devilfish wrote:
They might have better prospects with a Q300NG with new cockpit and engines.....if they were not unloading their turboprop line. :airplane:

Q300 itself have been discontinued and Bombardier have also sold a few Q400CC to JAL's RAC as Q300 successor in a similar fashion
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KCaviator
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:29 am

I wonder who else will jump on this train. GoJet is apparently operating 50 of them, which is doubling their United fleet. I can see SkyWest, maybe Envoy/PSA, and even Endeavor getting in on the action.

Is this the future of 50-seat flying? Will the 145s/200s be no more?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:31 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
RamblinMan wrote:
The economics of 50-seaters was considered horrible to begin with. Now they're worse. (From a CRJ200 to this CRJ550)


For comparaison, look at what happened a while back when Bombardier took its 90 seat CRJ900 and made a 2/3 classes 76 seater out of it. The economics (CASM) also got worst, but we obtained an even bigger RASM as a result.

Why would that logic not be applicable in the 50 seats segment? Furthermore at very little capital cost as we're converting used CRJ700s. And most importantly, with current scope clauses that allow an unlimitted number of 50 seat aircrafts...



You're not making the right comparison. U.S. carriers weren't operating 90-seat, single-class CR9s. The comparison that worked (in the market) was the 2-class CR9/E75 vs. mainline, as outlined by Lightsaber above. It's not at all obvious that 50-seat CR7s are better than A220-100s (and pushing the E75s into smaller markets). 10F and 20 E+ out of 50 seats is a very rich mix. Maybe UA has enough routes to support 50 aircraft in that config. What this does say is that Kirby has a lot of fear of mainline costs and productivity.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:39 am

It's indeed a rich mix, and obviously could not profitably replace all current 145/200s flying. But even at only 33% of current routes, that would still be quite an achievement.

The CRJ 550 could also replace some CRJ900/E175 on some marginal/tinner routes, allowing them to be better deployed.
 
Moosefire
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:12 am

wrongwayup wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.


Pilot scope clauses keep flying at mainline. That flying directly results in mainline FA and maintenance jobs and indirectly provides better opportunities for most other front line work groups (and quite a few management folks as well).
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:24 am

Moosefire wrote:
wrongwayup wrote:
Moosefire wrote:

You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.


Pilot scope clauses keep flying at mainline. That flying directly results in mainline FA and maintenance jobs and indirectly provides better opportunities for most other front line work groups (and quite a few management folks as well).


Pilot scope clauses keep flying at mainline by artificially reducing the flying done at regionals and therefore the employment levels at those regionals. I will concede that this has knock-on effects in terms of mainline cabin crew and perhaps maintenance (but only such work that is not outsourced to other MR&Os) - BUT it also puts artificial limits on the number of those same jobs at regionals as well. It is literally one group of workers limiting work given to another group of workers in order to protect the first group of workers' own interests, and it causes the industry to be less efficient as a whole.
 
GSP psgr
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:53 am

Trying to spitball the most likely markets for this thing:
1) Thinner, Premium Leisure: Aspen, Key West, Kalispell, Jackson Hole, other Western Ski Resorts
2) Longer, Thinner Business Markets: Fayetteville/Bentonville, White Plains, Huntsville, Monterrey (and other Mexican business oriented markets)
3) Houston/Denver Energy Markets: Charleston (WV), Bakersfield, Edmonton, Midland/Odessa, Williston, Minot
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:15 am

Hopefully you don't have to have eyes in your belly button to see outside.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:44 am

wedgetail737 wrote:
Hopefully you don't have to have eyes in your belly button to see outside.

Good one but no, this is not a CR2 but a modified CR7 - that will replace the model where you indeed have to break your neck in order to look outside.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:48 am

wrongwayup wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The scope closes don't make a lot of sense, so it's not a surprise to see nonsense solutions like this popping up.


You must not work in this business if you don’t understand the value of scope.


The only people who get any value from scope clauses are mainline pilots. No one else "in this business" gets any value from scope clauses whatsoever. Prove me wrong.


When UAL ALPA allowed 70 seat RJs, UAL parked ALL the 737s, furloughing around 2,000 pilots AND 3,000 flight attendants. Less mainline airplanes would mean less mechanics, too.

You're welcome.
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TWA772LR
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:04 am

I made a thread not too long ago about a potential 50 seat plane with something resembling a true F. I was dismissed as crazy :)
When wasn't America great?


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MoreMiles
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:55 am

Most 50 seaters only have 1 FA. I cannot see more than 1 FA for a 3 class 50 seater. No wonder they are looking at self serve areas.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:46 am

when United parked the 737-322's and -522's It was about the merger where both airlines would come in with about the same number of Airplanes.
Once the merger happened? they had to merge the seniority lists, and that's when the fur got to flying. It was Ugly for a few years until all the contracts got settled. But the majority of the pilots and flight attendants returned and are now flying with their respected seniority.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Bombardier launch new 50 seater

Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:26 am

wrongwayup wrote:
Scope limits the number of regional pilot jobs available by limiting the amount of flying those regionals can do. Regional (i.e. new) pilots would objectively be better off without scope clauses, which only benefit the people who already have mainline jobs. You will not convince me that limiting regional job creation is somehow better for the industry as a whole because it gives those pilots who do get the (artificially limited number of) jobs "hope" that they might get a mainline job at an indeterminate date in the future.


You would be right if there was a shortage of 'new' pilots. But there's not, far from it. The ATO factories keep churning out frozen ATPL holders at a high rate of knots, much higher than the industry can absorb.

Therefore the only thing a relaxation of scope clauses would yield, would be an erosion of T&C for mainline pilots, as the airline would fill the ranks with low-hour 'cheap' labour on 737s / A320s rather than on regional jets / turboprops.
Signature. You just read one.

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