WPvsMW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:56 am

DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT. DL captives will make the trek to NRT to fly to SIN or MNL if DL lacks that service from HND. If the NRT/SIN or NRT/MNL underperforms at some point, the equipment will be moved to city pairs with higher yields... that is standard network planning, at DL or any operator with a big fleet.
 
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N717TW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:28 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT. DL captives will make the trek to NRT to fly to SIN or MNL if DL lacks that service from HND. If the NRT/SIN or NRT/MNL underperforms at some point, the equipment will be moved to city pairs with higher yields... that is standard network planning, at DL or any operator with a big fleet.


Those "beyond NRT" flights to SIN and MNL are all but done. First of all, those routes require a US-Japan segment. In essence they are actually USA-MNL and USA-SIN with a fuel stop in TYO. So if the DL flights all move to HND and DL doesn't have a slot to operate the beyond route, then the beyond flights can't operate even if DL wants to. I suppose its possible for DL to continue to operate some NRT flights (e.g. SEA-NRT-SIN) but its highly unlikely. The other option is to run tags from other Japanese cities (e.g. how DL used to operate DTW-NGO-MNL) although that is also unlikely.

Two likely outcomes: 1. DL applies for rights to operate beyond flights from South Korea to SIN/MNL/etc. 2. Delta drops all cities beyond those it can viably operate nonstop from the US.

If we look Europe, DL has dropped all cities that it can't operate from the US nonstop. First the old PA hub in FRA hub was dropped, then the tags from Paris, then the AMS tags to India were dropped last. Delta would appear to prefer its partners operate their tags. Delta does have an office and Asian back office operation in Singapore, but I have no idea how committed they are to the city even with that.
 
klm617
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:59 pm

They could do DTW-KIX-SIN and DTW-NGO-MNL with an A332.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
x1234
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:37 pm

Or DL drops MNL completely and starts SEA-SIN on the A350 or SEA-KIX-SIN on the 767/339. There is a LARGE US corporate presence in Singapore as its the SE Asia HQ of many multinationals especially finance.
 
codc10
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:47 pm

N717TW wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT. DL captives will make the trek to NRT to fly to SIN or MNL if DL lacks that service from HND. If the NRT/SIN or NRT/MNL underperforms at some point, the equipment will be moved to city pairs with higher yields... that is standard network planning, at DL or any operator with a big fleet.


Those "beyond NRT" flights to SIN and MNL are all but done. First of all, those routes require a US-Japan segment. In essence they are actually USA-MNL and USA-SIN with a fuel stop in TYO. So if the DL flights all move to HND and DL doesn't have a slot to operate the beyond route, then the beyond flights can't operate even if DL wants to. I suppose its possible for DL to continue to operate some NRT flights (e.g. SEA-NRT-SIN) but its highly unlikely. The other option is to run tags from other Japanese cities (e.g. how DL used to operate DTW-NGO-MNL) although that is also unlikely.

Two likely outcomes: 1. DL applies for rights to operate beyond flights from South Korea to SIN/MNL/etc. 2. Delta drops all cities beyond those it can viably operate nonstop from the US.

If we look Europe, DL has dropped all cities that it can't operate from the US nonstop. First the old PA hub in FRA hub was dropped, then the tags from Paris, then the AMS tags to India were dropped last. Delta would appear to prefer its partners operate their tags. Delta does have an office and Asian back office operation in Singapore, but I have no idea how committed they are to the city even with that.


DL has the rights to sell local traffic beyond NRT and they won't replicate the service with their own metal at ICN once those routes go away.
 
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N717TW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:24 pm

x1234 wrote:
Or DL drops MNL completely and starts SEA-SIN on the A350 or SEA-KIX-SIN on the 767/339. There is a LARGE US corporate presence in Singapore as its the SE Asia HQ of many multinationals especially finance.


Sure but Delta's A350s will have range issues doing that flight. If only they had 787s on order! :duck: :duck:
 
WPvsMW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:32 pm

N717TW wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT.


Those "beyond NRT" flights to SIN and MNL are all but done. First of all, those routes require a US-Japan segment.


By inference, you agree ("DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT."). DL does need to satisfy the requirements for 5th freedom rights (vs. 7th Freedom). If such a 5th freedom service had acceptable yields vs. alternative use of the equipment, DL would do it.
 
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RWA380
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:23 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Some interesting insights provided by LAS....
Image
Image
Image


according to the DOT, their choices are made based upon what is in the best interest of the American flying public & not how much tourism one flight can bring to the USA. This is the exact reason HA has been overlooked before for HND slots & only got it’s last one, because no one else could/would use it successfully. These daytime slots are more exciting, I honestly think that tourism should be considered. But it’s not a metric the DOT uses to determine these allocations currently.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
Boof02671
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:22 pm

Once again, when will the DOT award the route authorities?
 
FSDan
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Once again, when will the DOT award the route authorities?


I don't think they've given a date for that.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Once again, when will the DOT award the route authorities?


Well before November 2019 application deadline for IATA S20 slot conference.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
cessna2
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:53 am

N717TW wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Or DL drops MNL completely and starts SEA-SIN on the A350 or SEA-KIX-SIN on the 767/339. There is a LARGE US corporate presence in Singapore as its the SE Asia HQ of many multinationals especially finance.


Sure but Delta's A350s will have range issues doing that flight. If only they had 787s on order! :duck: :duck:

I wouldn't be shocked if an order was coming soon.
 
PHLspecial
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:10 am

N717TW wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Or DL drops MNL completely and starts SEA-SIN on the A350 or SEA-KIX-SIN on the 767/339. There is a LARGE US corporate presence in Singapore as its the SE Asia HQ of many multinationals especially finance.


Sure but Delta's A350s will have range issues doing that flight. If only they had 787s on order! :duck: :duck:


But but SQ has the A350 on the route. Then I realized the joke. Then again it's a.net.
 
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N717TW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:32 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
N717TW wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Or DL drops MNL completely and starts SEA-SIN on the A350 or SEA-KIX-SIN on the 767/339. There is a LARGE US corporate presence in Singapore as its the SE Asia HQ of many multinationals especially finance.


Sure but Delta's A350s will have range issues doing that flight. If only they had 787s on order! :duck: :duck:


But but SQ has the A350 on the route. Then I realized the joke. Then again it's a.net.


At this point, we're highjacking the thread, which I didn't intend. But I believe there is a significant range difference between DL's A350s with over 300 seats and SQ's with 250 seats. I reserve the right to be 100% wrong.

Now back to HND slots.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:04 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
N717TW wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT.


Those "beyond NRT" flights to SIN and MNL are all but done. First of all, those routes require a US-Japan segment.


By inference, you agree ("DL doesn't need a base, or a Sky Club, at NRT to serve NRT."). DL does need to satisfy the requirements for 5th freedom rights (vs. 7th Freedom). If such a 5th freedom service had acceptable yields vs. alternative use of the equipment, DL would do it.


If the NRT-MNL 5th Freedom is as wholly dependant on Manila-Japan O/D traffic as has been asserted upthread, the legalities of a 5th Freedom flight would be satisfied by HNL-NRT-MNL. If DL sweeps its entire request list 6/6, that HNL-NRT segment isn't there, but the probability of that is left as an exercise for the previous 11 pages of this thread.

The balance between Japan 5th Freedom O/D vs. US-continuing traffic on the SIN route has not been mentioned (and the MNL claim wasn't backed up by statistics), but as a business destination, I would guess that that would be much more US point of sale-driven. That is a much better candidate for DTW-KIX-SIN or DTW-NGO-SIN.

BA744PHX wrote:
So from my understand PHX has more passengers to Tokyo then MSP and nearly the same as DEN, both of which has NRT service... ain't that something......


I'm guessing that PHX looms large for AA's plans for LAS. The 192 PDEW TYO-LAS isn't quite enough to fill an airplane, but PHX is right there and can reflow passengers away from LAX to make up the balance.
 
Dldiamondboy
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:49 pm

I do ATL-NRT-SIN-NRT-ATL on Delta once per month. I am not sure if DL is making money on NRT-SIN-NRT but the flight is always full and sometimes overbooked. Some folks have speculated that after DL exits NRT they would do SEA-SIN. Can the A350 do this? Maybe it would be weight restricted? Seems right at the edge of the range limits especially going west. Obviously the 777-LR could do it. At one point the NRT-SIN-NRT was done with a 777. I cannot remember if it was the ER or LR. I would prefer to stay on DL metal/CFRP versus Korean Air due to the comfort of the lie flats.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:58 pm

I concur re: LF NRT/SIN. As a regular on NRT/SIN, always at or close to 100% LF. In my experience, at least half, and usually much more than half, do not go into transit at NRT... they are NRT destination/domestic traffic and head for C&I.
I have never flown NRT/MNL.
 
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TransWorldOne
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:45 pm

Dldiamondboy wrote:
I do ATL-NRT-SIN-NRT-ATL on Delta once per month. I am not sure if DL is making money on NRT-SIN-NRT but the flight is always full and sometimes overbooked. Some folks have speculated that after DL exits NRT they would do SEA-SIN. Can the A350 do this? Maybe it would be weight restricted? Seems right at the edge of the range limits especially going west. Obviously the 777-LR could do it. At one point the NRT-SIN-NRT was done with a 777. I cannot remember if it was the ER or LR. I would prefer to stay on DL metal/CFRP versus Korean Air due to the comfort of the lie flats.


When NRT-SIN is dropped, which it inevitably will be, you will be able to reach SIN via ICN on Korean. I can't imagine in what world conservative DL would launch SEA-SIN which would be the second longest flight in the airlines network. I imagine the chances of that flight happening are close to zero. Remember, DL couldn't make SEA-HKG work. KIX apparently can only work seasonally. SIN is a non starter, especially with SQ in the market.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:11 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
When NRT-SIN is dropped, which it inevitably will be, you will be able to reach SIN via ICN on Korean.


You can already fly ICN/SIN. EB has said DL at NRT will go to zero, but yields on NRT/SIN are so good that DL continues to operate it, and a large part of those yields are TYO O&D, which O&D will happily fly HND/SIN if DL were to obtain the slots for that; otherwise DL captives will have to fly ICN/SIN and DL will lose the TYO O&D. Would DL prefer to retain the TYO O&D it (and NW) carefully cultivated since the 50's?
 
blockski
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:19 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
TransWorldOne wrote:
When NRT-SIN is dropped, which it inevitably will be, you will be able to reach SIN via ICN on Korean.


You can already fly ICN/SIN. EB has said DL at NRT will go to zero, but yields on NRT/SIN are so good that DL continues to operate it, and a large part of those yields are TYO O&D, which O&D will happily fly HND/SIN if DL were to obtain the slots for that; otherwise DL captives will have to fly ICN/SIN and DL will lose the TYO O&D. Would DL prefer to retain the TYO O&D it (and NW) carefully cultivated since the 50's?


The short answer is no, DL will not prefer to retain the Tokyo O&D. That ship has sailed.
 
Dldiamondboy
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:41 am

Yes KE has three flights a day ICN-SIN. Only problem is coming from ATL all of these fights have long layovers if one takes DL 27 from ATL-ICN. The return is just as bad. The only KE flight that lines up with DL 26 also has a very long layover and departs Changi @ 1am. So to stay on Delta on the long flights from ATL-SIN and not spend 20 hours in layovers at ICN means ATL-DTW-ICN-SIN-ICN-DTW-ATL. No benefit since Skymiles are capped at 75K. Don't need the segments. Maybe Delta/KE will shift flight times around to make connections better. May need to carry on and take SIA from ICN-SIN. Time to build status with Star Alliance. Don't loose to much on DL since Skymiles per ticket is capped @75k.
 
ITSTours
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:49 am

Dldiamondboy wrote:
Yes KE has three flights a day ICN-SIN. Only problem is coming from ATL all of these fights have long layovers if one takes DL 27 from ATL-ICN. The return is just as bad. The only KE flight that lines up with DL 26 also has a very long layover and departs Changi @ 1am. So to stay on Delta on the long flights from ATL-SIN and not spend 20 hours in layovers at ICN means ATL-DTW-ICN-SIN-ICN-DTW-ATL. No benefit since Skymiles are capped at 75K. Don't need the segments. Maybe Delta/KE will shift flight times around to make connections better. May need to carry on and take SIA from ICN-SIN. Time to build status with Star Alliance. Don't loose to much on DL since Skymiles per ticket is capped @75k.


KE35/36 provides very nice connection times.
 
Yahnih
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:11 am

how were the LF on NRT/MNL.. for years they operated 747 then got downgraded to the next only possible WB they can put on a regional route which was the 767. I feel there is some capacity there.
 
Dldiamondboy
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:09 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Dldiamondboy wrote:
Yes KE has three flights a day ICN-SIN. Only problem is coming from ATL all of these fights have long layovers if one takes DL 27 from ATL-ICN. The return is just as bad. The only KE flight that lines up with DL 26 also has a very long layover and departs Changi @ 1am. So to stay on Delta on the long flights from ATL-SIN and not spend 20 hours in layovers at ICN means ATL-DTW-ICN-SIN-ICN-DTW-ATL. No benefit since Skymiles are capped at 75K. Don't need the segments. Maybe Delta/KE will shift flight times around to make connections better. May need to carry on and take SIA from ICN-SIN. Time to build status with Star Alliance. Don't loose to much on DL since Skymiles per ticket is capped @75k.


KE35/36 provides very nice connection times.


Prefer 4 abreast seating in business versus 6. The KE seats are not comfortable for folks over 6' tall.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:05 am

Yahnih wrote:
how were the LF on NRT/MNL.. for years they operated 747 then got downgraded to the next only possible WB they can put on a regional route which was the 767. I feel there is some capacity there.

Anecdotally 747s on MNL-NGO/NRT were full, yields may not have been that good though since virtually everyone connected to the US.
 
winginit
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:16 am

WPvsMW wrote:
You can already fly ICN/SIN. EB has said DL at NRT will go to zero, but yields on NRT/SIN are so good that DL continues to operate it, and a large part of those yields are TYO O&D


Do you have a source for your claim that NRT/SIN yields are particularly lucrative? I have no evidence to the contrary apart from spot checking fares (that seem to stay pretty steady in the ~$400 RT range for nonstop), but I'd been of the impression that the four carriers who fly the route nonstop in combination with seemingly endless one-stop options had dragged things down into the doldrums. I could be wrong, but using that $400 average you're looking at $0.06 yields for NRTSIN roundtrip. That's not good.

WPvsMW wrote:
Would DL prefer to retain the TYO O&D it (and NW) carefully cultivated since the 50's?


Ed has been asked iterations of that question ever since DL really started humming on the NRT hub draw-down, and it's never seemed as though he's particularly worried about losing the TYO O&D. Just my take on it but it seems, as others have said, that that ship has sailed.
 
Etheereal
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:25 am

Chance of B6 ordering 787-10s for HND? :stirthepot:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
jrkmsp
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:41 am

Etheereal wrote:
Chance of B6 ordering 787-10s for HND? :stirthepot:


They would have had to apply, so....
 
WPvsMW
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:59 am

winginit wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
You can already fly ICN/SIN. EB has said DL at NRT will go to zero, but yields on NRT/SIN are so good that DL continues to operate it, and a large part of those yields are TYO O&D


Do you have a source for your claim that NRT/SIN yields are particularly lucrative?



As noted, the basis was personal observation of LFs every time I've flown it for the past decade.
 
c933103
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:53 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Some interesting insights provided by LAS....
Image
Image
Image

Why there are more Asian travellers buying tickets to PDX than American, compares to all other American cities, despite Portland is probably the least famous place among all the cities in the list?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
ANA787
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:12 am

c933103 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Some interesting insights provided by LAS....
Image
Image
Image

Why there are more Asian travellers buying tickets to PDX than American, compares to all other American cities, despite Portland is probably the least famous place among all the cities in the list?

There are extensive cultural and business ties between Oregon and Japan. Currently there are around 150 Japanese companies that have an outpost in the Portland area.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:31 pm

ANA787 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Some interesting insights provided by LAS....
Image
Image
Image

Why there are more Asian travellers buying tickets to PDX than American, compares to all other American cities, despite Portland is probably the least famous place among all the cities in the list?

There are extensive cultural and business ties between Oregon and Japan. Currently there are around 150 Japanese companies that have an outpost in the Portland area.


That's not that high of a number
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
ITSTours
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:31 am

I looked at the timeline in 2016 proceedings. It took 4 months until the tentative decision. So we might have to wait at least until June. I can chill now.
 
eal
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:48 pm

I'm not sure if it shows DL's commitment to servicing the Tokyo-Singapore market (regardless of the DOT allocations) but DL is currently looking for Japanese Customer Service reps to be based in Singapore.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Job/tokyo-airline-jobs-SRCH_IL.0,5_IC2851580_KO6,13.htm?fromAge=7&jl=3171150722&ja=96499778&guid=00000169c7fc806b9743957760756fbe&pos=101&srs=EMAIL_JOB_ALERT&s=224&ao=242966&utm_source=jobalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=jobAlertAlert&utm_content=ja-jobtitle&utm_term=
 
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LAXintl
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:22 pm

That job is for DL call center in SIN.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
a19901213
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:07 pm

I always thought in order to fly between HND and any countries a biliteral agreement is needed.

I just don’t think Singaporean and Japanese authorities are willing to let an American airline be included in their biliteral agreement.

Well at least executives in SQ, NH and JL would definitely oppose the initiative, only if Delta ever try to push it through.
 
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RWA380
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:11 pm

ANA787 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Some interesting insights provided by LAS....
Image
Image
Image

Why there are more Asian travellers buying tickets to PDX than American, compares to all other American cities, despite Portland is probably the least famous place among all the cities in the list?

There are extensive cultural and business ties between Oregon and Japan. Currently there are around 150 Japanese companies that have an outpost in the Portland area.


You are correct, The Japanese Society of Oregon has many culturally diverse programs with Oregon. Portland's sister city is Kyoto Japan & years ago, a wildly popular Japanese TV series called "From Oregon with Love" was what sparked the above average Japanese tourism here. It's one of those unique things about Portland & Oregon that bucks the trend.

The issue does remain, that in fact our government is looking at what routes benefit the American flyers & not inbound tourists. Requests like LAS on AA is on par with DL to HNL. The only reason HA got their last HND slot was that no other carrier would or could use it, not because they turned the DOT's minds on tourism as a metric for the route authority.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
flyfresno
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:21 pm

a19901213 wrote:
I always thought in order to fly between HND and any countries a biliteral agreement is needed.

I just don’t think Singaporean and Japanese authorities are willing to let an American airline be included in their biliteral agreement.

Well at least executives in SQ, NH and JL would definitely oppose the initiative, only if Delta ever try to push it through.


There’s no Skyteam presence between Tokyo and Singapore besides DL’s one NRT flight, despite TYO being the 7th busiest destination from SIN and arguably 2nd busiest business destination behind HKG. I agree that it probably won’t happen, but that’s not to say SkyTeam won’t try for something...
 
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:50 am

RWA380 wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Why there are more Asian travellers buying tickets to PDX than American, compares to all other American cities, despite Portland is probably the least famous place among all the cities in the list?

There are extensive cultural and business ties between Oregon and Japan. Currently there are around 150 Japanese companies that have an outpost in the Portland area.


You are correct, The Japanese Society of Oregon has many culturally diverse programs with Oregon. Portland's sister city is Kyoto Japan & years ago, a wildly popular Japanese TV series called "From Oregon with Love" was what sparked the above average Japanese tourism here. It's one of those unique things about Portland & Oregon that bucks the trend.

The issue does remain, that in fact our government is looking at what routes benefit the American flyers & not inbound tourists. Requests like LAS on AA is on par with DL to HNL. The only reason HA got their last HND slot was that no other carrier would or could use it, not because they turned the DOT's minds on tourism as a metric for the route authority.


You don’t know that. You assume that, but dont know that. So stop passing it off as fact...I think it’s the second time now on this thread alone
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a19901213
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:20 am

flyfresno wrote:
a19901213 wrote:
I always thought in order to fly between HND and any countries a biliteral agreement is needed.

I just don’t think Singaporean and Japanese authorities are willing to let an American airline be included in their biliteral agreement.

Well at least executives in SQ, NH and JL would definitely oppose the initiative, only if Delta ever try to push it through.


There’s no Skyteam presence between Tokyo and Singapore besides DL’s one NRT flight, despite TYO being the 7th busiest destination from SIN and arguably 2nd busiest business destination behind HKG. I agree that it probably won’t happen, but that’s not to say SkyTeam won’t try for something...


I guess the best they can do is to maintain a daily NRT-SIN, if this route really means a lot to Delta.

I don’t see why Singaporean and Japanese authorities should share their exclusive HND slots right with a 3rd country when their national carriers are making the full benefit from it.
 
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RWA380
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:25 pm

airportugal310 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
ANA787 wrote:
There are extensive cultural and business ties between Oregon and Japan. Currently there are around 150 Japanese companies that have an outpost in the Portland area.


You are correct, The Japanese Society of Oregon has many culturally diverse programs with Oregon. Portland's sister city is Kyoto Japan & years ago, a wildly popular Japanese TV series called "From Oregon with Love" was what sparked the above average Japanese tourism here. It's one of those unique things about Portland & Oregon that bucks the trend.

The issue does remain, that in fact our government is looking at what routes benefit the American flyers & not inbound tourists. Requests like LAS on AA is on par with DL to HNL. The only reason HA got their last HND slot was that no other carrier would or could use it, not because they turned the DOT's minds on tourism as a metric for the route authority.


You don’t know that. You assume that, but dont know that. So stop passing it off as fact...I think it’s the second time now on this thread alone


I don't know what? I spoke of many different things, yet you go off half cocked with some general statement as if you are an authority, so please enlighten me. If you are referring to the government using the benefit to American travelers, it was certainly is a metric that was used, the last time HND routes were awarded, Why would that have changed this time?
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YYZORD
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:09 am

I wanna mention how YYZ is very underserved from both HND and NRT, only one daily flight from HND to YYZ with AC, no year round service to NRT. I'm begging NH or JL to add NRT to YYZ, at least a japanese carrier come to YYZ please cause I'm having to transit at ORD-HND to fly NH in 3 weeks so that I don't fly crap AC. It makes me sometimes angry that major star alliance hubs get NH and other airports that are smaller than or equal size to YYZ in Canada/USA (BOS, SAN, IAH, SEA, YVR, IAD) get either JL or NH service while YYZ can't get one daily service to at least NRT and especially from a japanese carrier. If NH or JL doesn't add YYZ next year from the slot increase at both airports, you'll see me become very angry cause AC sucks compared to asian carriers and YYZ cannot be ignored anymore from both japanese carriers! I'm starting to get the feeling NH and JL purposely ignores YYZ or has something against serving it.
 
jbs2886
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:48 pm

YYZORD wrote:
I wanna mention how YYZ is very underserved from both HND and NRT, only one daily flight from HND to YYZ with AC, no year round service to NRT. I'm begging NH or JL to add NRT to YYZ, at least a japanese carrier come to YYZ please cause I'm having to transit at ORD-HND to fly NH in 3 weeks so that I don't fly crap AC. It makes me sometimes angry that major star alliance hubs get NH and other airports that are smaller than or equal size to YYZ in Canada/USA (BOS, SAN, IAH, SEA, YVR, IAD) get either JL or NH service while YYZ can't get one daily service to at least NRT and especially from a japanese carrier. If NH or JL doesn't add YYZ next year from the slot increase at both airports, you'll see me become very angry cause AC sucks compared to asian carriers and YYZ cannot be ignored anymore from both japanese carriers! I'm starting to get the feeling NH and JL purposely ignores YYZ or has something against serving it.


Hmm why is this in a US-HND thread?
 
YYZORD
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:42 pm

Just before someone was discussing about NRT-SIN on here so YYZ is more similar to US service. When you really say service to North America, canadian hubs count cause they're transferring american pax onto preclearance there.

jbs2886 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I wanna mention how YYZ is very underserved from both HND and NRT, only one daily flight from HND to YYZ with AC, no year round service to NRT. I'm begging NH or JL to add NRT to YYZ, at least a japanese carrier come to YYZ please cause I'm having to transit at ORD-HND to fly NH in 3 weeks so that I don't fly crap AC. It makes me sometimes angry that major star alliance hubs get NH and other airports that are smaller than or equal size to YYZ in Canada/USA (BOS, SAN, IAH, SEA, YVR, IAD) get either JL or NH service while YYZ can't get one daily service to at least NRT and especially from a japanese carrier. If NH or JL doesn't add YYZ next year from the slot increase at both airports, you'll see me become very angry cause AC sucks compared to asian carriers and YYZ cannot be ignored anymore from both japanese carriers! I'm starting to get the feeling NH and JL purposely ignores YYZ or has something against serving it.


Hmm why is this in a US-HND thread?
 
ScottB
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:03 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Just before someone was discussing about NRT-SIN on here so YYZ is more similar to US service. When you really say service to North America, canadian hubs count cause they're transferring american pax onto preclearance there.


Except that NRT-SIN is served by a U.S. carrier and YYZ-TYO is not. And this proceeding is very likely to impact DL's NRT-SIN service, since it will probably be dropped if they're able to move all their U.S.-Narita flights over to Haneda.

flyfresno wrote:
There’s no Skyteam presence between Tokyo and Singapore besides DL’s one NRT flight, despite TYO being the 7th busiest destination from SIN and arguably 2nd busiest business destination behind HKG.


Neither SIN nor TYO has a real SkyTeam hub (anymore), and the alliances can't be everything to everyone.
 
jbs2886
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:45 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Just before someone was discussing about NRT-SIN on here so YYZ is more similar to US service. When you really say service to North America, canadian hubs count cause they're transferring american pax onto preclearance there.

jbs2886 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
I wanna mention how YYZ is very underserved from both HND and NRT, only one daily flight from HND to YYZ with AC, no year round service to NRT. I'm begging NH or JL to add NRT to YYZ, at least a japanese carrier come to YYZ please cause I'm having to transit at ORD-HND to fly NH in 3 weeks so that I don't fly crap AC. It makes me sometimes angry that major star alliance hubs get NH and other airports that are smaller than or equal size to YYZ in Canada/USA (BOS, SAN, IAH, SEA, YVR, IAD) get either JL or NH service while YYZ can't get one daily service to at least NRT and especially from a japanese carrier. If NH or JL doesn't add YYZ next year from the slot increase at both airports, you'll see me become very angry cause AC sucks compared to asian carriers and YYZ cannot be ignored anymore from both japanese carriers! I'm starting to get the feeling NH and JL purposely ignores YYZ or has something against serving it.


Hmm why is this in a US-HND thread?


NRT-SIN is discussed in the context of using US frequencies for the flight and/or the result of DL moving US flights to HND. Literally this thread is about US frequencies for HND....preclearance is irrelevant. Also, who said North America?
 
c933103
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:22 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Just before someone was discussing about NRT-SIN on here so YYZ is more similar to US service. When you really say service to North America, canadian hubs count cause they're transferring american pax onto preclearance there.

The reason why American routes get so many extra slots in this round of slot expansion, and consequently trigger discussion on other routes operated between America and Japan, was because America facilitated the increase by allowing civil aircraft travel through air space they control near the airport regularly. As Canada doesn't control any air space around Tokyo, there are no reason to treat Canada the same way according to the treatment America receive here.
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77H
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:18 am

RWA380 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

You are correct, The Japanese Society of Oregon has many culturally diverse programs with Oregon. Portland's sister city is Kyoto Japan & years ago, a wildly popular Japanese TV series called "From Oregon with Love" was what sparked the above average Japanese tourism here. It's one of those unique things about Portland & Oregon that bucks the trend.

The issue does remain, that in fact our government is looking at what routes benefit the American flyers & not inbound tourists. Requests like LAS on AA is on par with DL to HNL. The only reason HA got their last HND slot was that no other carrier would or could use it, not because they turned the DOT's minds on tourism as a metric for the route authority.


You don’t know that. You assume that, but dont know that. So stop passing it off as fact...I think it’s the second time now on this thread alone


I don't know what? I spoke of many different things, yet you go off half cocked with some general statement as if you are an authority, so please enlighten me. If you are referring to the government using the benefit to American travelers, it was certainly is a metric that was used, the last time HND routes were awarded, Why would that have changed this time?


RWA, my recollection of HA’s slot awards are very similar to your statements. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall some, if not all of the “US3” carriers mentioning that exact argument in their statements to the DOT. It was well known that primary POS was going to be in Japan. Nevertheless HA was awarded the slot and went on to be the only carrier to operate the route with no service disruptions, downgauges etc. When day time slots became available the same arguments were made by the US3. HA was awarded slots but not in line with their full request which was for HNL and KOA to operate daily, concurrently.

AirPortugal, just because you work for HA doesn’t automatically make you the foremost authority on all things Hawaiian. I frequently see you lashing out at people in threads concerning HA and injecting your opinions or understandings as fact. I remember a thread about a year ago where you lashed out at a poster who said UA was larger than HA to and from the mainland. I recall about 5 posters, myself included providing you factual evidence to the contrary of your aggressively dealt claim that it was in fact HA.

RWA worked in the Hawaii travel industry when HA was little more than an interisland carrier, not the Pacific powerhouse you work for today. He brings a lot of historical insight to threads regarding HA and Hawaii aviation at large. I enjoy reading his contributions to this forum and he has never struck me as the type of poster to spot off nonsense. So ease off the hostilities and show a little more aloha.

77H
 
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RWA380
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:20 pm

77H wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
airportugal310 wrote:

You don’t know that. You assume that, but dont know that. So stop passing it off as fact...I think it’s the second time now on this thread alone


I don't know what? I spoke of many different things, yet you go off half cocked with some general statement as if you are an authority, so please enlighten me. If you are referring to the government using the benefit to American travelers, it was certainly is a metric that was used, the last time HND routes were awarded, Why would that have changed this time?


RWA, my recollection of HA’s slot awards are very similar to your statements. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall some, if not all of the “US3” carriers mentioning that exact argument in their statements to the DOT. It was well known that primary POS was going to be in Japan. Nevertheless HA was awarded the slot and went on to be the only carrier to operate the route with no service disruptions, downgauges etc. When day time slots became available the same arguments were made by the US3. HA was awarded slots but not in line with their full request which was for HNL and KOA to operate daily, concurrently.

AirPortugal, just because you work for HA doesn’t automatically make you the foremost authority on all things Hawaiian. I frequently see you lashing out at people in threads concerning HA and injecting your opinions or understandings as fact. I remember a thread about a year ago where you lashed out at a poster who said UA was larger than HA to and from the mainland. I recall about 5 posters, myself included providing you factual evidence to the contrary of your aggressively dealt claim that it was in fact HA.

RWA worked in the Hawaii travel industry when HA was little more than an interisland carrier, not the Pacific powerhouse you work for today. He brings a lot of historical insight to threads regarding HA and Hawaii aviation at large. I enjoy reading his contributions to this forum and he has never struck me as the type of poster to spot off nonsense. So ease off the hostilities and show a little more aloha.

77H


I appreciate the kind words. I may over simplify from time to time, but I do not seek out conflict or to be misunderstood. HA is an awesome carrier that gets my money, I often have wished that the powers that be should give inbound tourism a metric to be used in deciding these type of things & as 77H pointed out, HA can use & excel even with the less than ideal times they originally obtained. AA nor DL could do that with the last slot. So kudos to HA for thriving where others failed. I hope that fact alone would have the DOT paying attention to HA's application.
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SFOtoORD
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Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:43 pm

77H wrote:
RWA, my recollection of HA’s slot awards are very similar to your statements. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall some, if not all of the “US3” carriers mentioning that exact argument in their statements to the DOT. It was well known that primary POS was going to be in Japan. Nevertheless HA was awarded the slot and went on to be the only carrier to operate the route with no service disruptions, downgauges etc. When day time slots became available the same arguments were made by the US3. HA was awarded slots but not in line with their full request which was for HNL and KOA to operate daily, concurrently.


DL and AA had many changes to HND service, but UA did not. They’ve been eager to offer service and when they finally won a slot they delivered.

I still think that the US3 have long provided far more service to the TYO market and should be awarded all of the new slots. The Hawaii market isn’t worth using these precious slots on given that it’s almost entirely Japan POS leisure traffics. Just ramp up NRT service. It will do fine.

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