ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 4:07 pm

UA could start additional ICN frequencies whenever they want to.
In fact they added 4x weekly SFO-ICN just last month.
AA as well, and there is a longtime rumour that says AA will start LAX-ICN. (I doubt.)

None of DL, AA and UL can start additional HND frequencies like ICN. If they can then why do they go through such a proceeding like this?

If you don't get this and continue to insist that ICN is restricted like HND then ... I don't know what to say more.
 
flyoregon
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 4:56 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
And I don't understand why people keep thinking everyone will just drive 2+ hours to catch a flight. The fact is, most people don't.


Exactly right. The same argument can be said for San Diego to LAX...most people don't. They fly out of the airport that's closest to them. The only time I've driven up to Seattle and flown out of SEA instead of PDX was because I was non-revving and that was the best option available.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2110
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 5:05 pm

Sightseer wrote:
PW100 wrote:
So you are blaming the DoT for approving anti-competitive JV's in the first place. OK.

And then you are blaming DoT for approving DL PDX-HND because HND is a dead-end with having no JV partner at that end.

I don't get it either.


Its so frustrating to have one poster that literally finds anything about DL to post negatively, predominantly with false information (i.e., a troll). I've reported it many times.
 
User avatar
jbpdx
Posts: 717
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm

flyoregon wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And I don't understand why people keep thinking everyone will just drive 2+ hours to catch a flight. The fact is, most people don't.


Exactly right. The same argument can be said for San Diego to LAX...most people don't. They fly out of the airport that's closest to them. The only time I've driven up to Seattle and flown out of SEA instead of PDX was because I was non-revving and that was the best option available.



It’s not just driving. It’s the idea that Portland is “so close” to Seattle that Portland doesn’t need nonstops to anywhere and that people going to and from Portland should just connect in congested Seattle, to hell with the fact it adds a minimum of 3 hours travel time each way. Why do we need 24 flights PDX-SEA and 24 flights SEA-PDX everyday? As for driving, you’re lucky if you can make it in 4 hours. And that doesn’t count parking and getting to the terminal.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 5:57 pm

flyoregon wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And I don't understand why people keep thinking everyone will just drive 2+ hours to catch a flight. The fact is, most people don't.


Exactly right. The same argument can be said for San Diego to LAX...most people don't. They fly out of the airport that's closest to them. The only time I've driven up to Seattle and flown out of SEA instead of PDX was because I was non-revving and that was the best option available.


No, millions of Americans overdrive their nearest airport in search of lower fares It's the primary reason why service to smaller airports has deceased through the years and why a market like PHL has limited international service (proximity to NYC),
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 6:02 pm

compensateme wrote:
flyoregon wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
And I don't understand why people keep thinking everyone will just drive 2+ hours to catch a flight. The fact is, most people don't.


Exactly right. The same argument can be said for San Diego to LAX...most people don't. They fly out of the airport that's closest to them. The only time I've driven up to Seattle and flown out of SEA instead of PDX was because I was non-revving and that was the best option available.


No, millions of Americans overdrive their nearest airport in search of lower fares It's the primary reason why service to smaller airports has deceased through the years and why a market like PHL has limited international service (proximity to NYC),


That's why I said "drive 2+ hours" (Or, in the case of Portland OR to Seattle, closer to 3...in good traffic). Philly to NYC (especially EWR) is like 1.5hr (With good train services as a bonus). Same for cities like Milwaukee to ORD (~1 hr 15 mins on a good day).

BTW, Philadelphia international service is far from limited. Compare to NYC, maybe. TPAC flights, yes. TATL? Far from "limited".

I dunno...according to the logic here, why do we need TATL (or the TPAC flights that some a.nutter purposed) out of AUS? I mean, Austin and Houston are pretty "close" (Austin to IAH is about the same distance as Portland OR to SEA). Alternatively, maybe we should just cancel the RDU-LHR flight, what a waste of LHR slot when CLT is "close" by (I mean, it's a shorter drive than Portland OR to Seattle)
 
tpaewr
Posts: 695
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

Re: US-Japan agree on additional Haneda slots; DOT to allocate

Fri May 17, 2019 6:12 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

I’m pretty sure CO never served HND.


They did, in the 70's via Continental Micronesia to SPN/GUM.



Exactly, CO started HND service in the 70s

Details and pictures here

https://www.weninchina.com/transpac-pio ... tokyo-1978
 
flyoregon
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:29 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 6:17 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
compensateme wrote:
flyoregon wrote:

Exactly right. The same argument can be said for San Diego to LAX...most people don't. They fly out of the airport that's closest to them. The only time I've driven up to Seattle and flown out of SEA instead of PDX was because I was non-revving and that was the best option available.


No, millions of Americans overdrive their nearest airport in search of lower fares It's the primary reason why service to smaller airports has deceased through the years and why a market like PHL has limited international service (proximity to NYC),


That's why I said "drive 2+ hours" (Or, in the case of Portland OR to Seattle, closer to 3...in good traffic). Philly to NYC (especially EWR) is like 1.5hr (With good train services as a bonus). Same for cities like Milwaukee to ORD (~1 hr 15 mins on a good day).

BTW, Philadelphia international service is far from limited. Compare to NYC, maybe. TPAC flights, yes. TATL? Far from "limited".

I dunno...according to the logic here, why do we need TATL (or the TPAC flights that some a.nutter purposed) out of AUS? I mean, Austin and Houston are pretty "close" (Austin to IAH is about the same distance as Portland OR to SEA). Alternatively, maybe we should just cancel the RDU-LHR flight, what a waste of LHR slot when CLT is "close" by (I mean, it's a shorter drive than Portland OR to Seattle)


Agreed. I’m not comparing smaller markets to larger markets suggesting that they need as much or more service than the larger market has. I’m simply suggesting that the notion to just drive to a larger market is overplayed. It’s not like comparing we are comparing Duluth to Minneapolis. These are top 50 sized cities and international service is more than fair/sustainable.
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 6:18 pm

FSDan wrote:
As for AA... as others have said, they didn't put together the strongest application package. If the leadership is frustrated, a large part of it is on them.


The leadership is frustrated with the HND award?

AA applied for what makes financial / network sense. I'd say there's a good chance this is a net addition.
 
mattnrsa
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:27 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:12 pm

With Tokyo becoming an international spoke and ICN taking over the role of intra-Asia hub, what are the chances DL, as a distant third in alliance market share, will maintain seven flights a day years down the road?

Tokyo is a huge market but I don’t think any other non-Sky Team international stations have that much service, even without competition from two dominant local carriers.
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:20 pm

Will all these additional flights to Haneda by DL be part of the JV with Korean?
 
kavok
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:26 pm

WingsOfLove wrote:
FSDan wrote:
As for AA... as others have said, they didn't put together the strongest application package. If the leadership is frustrated, a large part of it is on them.


The leadership is frustrated with the HND award?

AA applied for what makes financial / network sense. I'd say there's a good chance this is a net addition.


The issue with AA’s bid is that it (likely) ignores the needs of the AA/JL joint venture.

JL is presaumably going to also get 6 new HND slots to USA destinations, in addition to the 2 they already had. Add in the 3 HND slots that AA will now have, and next summer the AA/JL will have 11 total slots to the USA. If the argument is that 11 HND slots is more than enough to meet the needs of the JV, then AA made the right move. If on the other hand 11 is not enough, than AA messed up as they easily could have been picked for another slot by the DOT.

If AA had made ORD, SEA, BOS, or even LAS as their #3 choice, they would have been chosen. Those are all routes that JL could very well choose to fly with their 6 new slots, and could have instead been flown by AA. I am sorry, but putting a second DFW as a third choice was foolish in any scenario where AA was honestly trying to get more than 2 HND slots. And unless the JV only needs 11 slots, AA dropped the ball by not bidding for destinations that would work with the JV.
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:29 pm

The most interesting question to me here is what happens to MNL and SIN for DL. Possible scenarios:

- DL adds one or both of these routes out of Seattle, possibly with a short gap in service or weird timing until the new IAF opens. Pros: grows the Seattle hub, might be able to run SQ out of town. Cons: weak SEA o&d, more likely to get run out of town by SQ
- NRT and MNL move to ICN as new fifth freedom flights. Pros: most similar to old NRT arrangement. Cons: why bother when KE can do the flying
- DL tries to get HND slots for NRT/MNL. Pros: continue to capture Japan market traffic. Cons: HND slots are likely to have bad timing, Japan will probably take a dim view of a fifth freedom application for these routes, why go through the hassle of HND when you have ICN
- DL shrugs and drops both cities on the floor, relying on MU/KE connections. Pros: lowest risk. Cons: these routes are clearly at least somewhat profitable or they would have disappeared long ago with the rest of the NRT hub

My bet is that they take a brief stab at these out of Seattle sometime in 2020/2021 post-IAF opening and see if either sticks, but that they fail fast if bookings are weak. It’s also possible that they’d try to add flights out of ICN if they can do them with time an aircraft would otherwise spend unused.

SEA isn’t ideal as a gateway, especially with SQ here as competition. But DTW is too far to work, and most of the traffic would likely be connecting rather than O&D anyway...
 
kavok
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:40 pm

mattnrsa wrote:
With Tokyo becoming an international spoke and ICN taking over the role of intra-Asia hub, what are the chances DL, as a distant third in alliance market share, will maintain seven flights a day years down the road?

Tokyo is a huge market but I don’t think any other non-Sky Team international stations have that much service, even without competition from two dominant local carriers.


This is an interesting question. There is also going to be a ton of competition on the LAX-HND route too, so it will be interesting to see if all of those flights can survive. Regardless, eventually some airline will find themselves with a HND route they can’t make money on, be it Delta or someone else.

It will be very interesting to see whether the DOT reverses their earlier decision, and eventually would relent and let DL (or anyone) move a slot to a different location. Note that in the January ruling, when DL requested to have slot flexibility with HND, the DOT basically said “not at this time”... which is different than just saying “no”.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13828
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:49 pm

My take, If there were a viable business case for a US-Philippines nonstop UA would already by there from SFO. Right now UA only operates Guam-Manila with a 738. If DL were really committed to trying to make Manila work the only possible route that might work would be HNL-MNL. This is a route CO used to fly and Hawaiian currently flies. It would be very low yielding, and cater to local traffic.

With Singapore if they want to try a nonstop from Seattle the best argument against it would be if you can’t make Hong Kong work how is Singapore
Going to fair better?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:50 pm

SUNCTRY738 wrote:
Will all these additional flights to Haneda by DL be part of the JV with Korean?


GMP-HND route is excluded, because the third country codeshare is prohibited on this route.
So probably not.
 
kavok
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 7:55 pm

bcbhokie wrote:
The most interesting question to me here is what happens to MNL and SIN for DL. Possible scenarios:

- DL adds one or both of these routes out of Seattle, possibly with a short gap in service or weird timing until the new IAF opens. Pros: grows the Seattle hub, might be able to run SQ out of town. Cons: weak SEA o&d, more likely to get run out of town by SQ
- NRT and MNL move to ICN as new fifth freedom flights. Pros: most similar to old NRT arrangement. Cons: why bother when KE can do the flying
- DL tries to get HND slots for NRT/MNL. Pros: continue to capture Japan market traffic. Cons: HND slots are likely to have bad timing, Japan will probably take a dim view of a fifth freedom application for these routes, why go through the hassle of HND when you have ICN
- DL shrugs and drops both cities on the floor, relying on MU/KE connections. Pros: lowest risk. Cons: these routes are clearly at least somewhat profitable or they would have disappeared long ago with the rest of the NRT hub

My bet is that they take a brief stab at these out of Seattle sometime in 2020/2021 post-IAF opening and see if either sticks, but that they fail fast if bookings are weak. It’s also possible that they’d try to add flights out of ICN if they can do them with time an aircraft would otherwise spend unused.

SEA isn’t ideal as a gateway, especially with SQ here as competition. But DTW is too far to work, and most of the traffic would likely be connecting rather than O&D anyway...


Don’t forget the option of flying nonstop from LAX, or possibly using a tag flight from NGO/KIX. Not saying either are likely, but they are possiblities.
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 9:00 pm

kavok wrote:
I am sorry, but putting a second DFW as a third choice was foolish in any scenario where AA was honestly trying to get more than 2 HND slots.


Asking for a 2nd authority shows AA expects HND ticket prices to drop so low, that only DFW would have worked.
 
727200
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:31 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 9:26 pm

Or that AA doesnt have a Western feed that would support HND and so fell back to their closest support hub, DFW.

The reality is when you read their application it was very weak and one could draw the conclusion AA knew they did not have a strong presentation. It is interesting they did not try to present PHX, but then there wasnt enough feed to make thst argument.
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 pm

ITSTours wrote:
SUNCTRY738 wrote:
Will all these additional flights to Haneda by DL be part of the JV with Korean?


GMP-HND route is excluded, because the third country codeshare is prohibited on this route.
So probably not.


It is included in the JV. All trans-Pacific except China is included.
 
a19901213
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 9:53 pm

People need to stop assuming DL can fly to SIN from HND as long as they get the slots. They can’t.

As far as I’m concerned pretty much all countries need a bilateral agreement between Japanese authorities in order to fly in to HND.

Why would Singaporean authority give DL the right when themselves can only wish for more slots in HND? Same for JAL&ANA.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 11:29 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
SUNCTRY738 wrote:
Will all these additional flights to Haneda by DL be part of the JV with Korean?


GMP-HND route is excluded, because the third country codeshare is prohibited on this route.
So probably not.


It is included in the JV. All trans-Pacific except China is included.


"Even though Korean Air has one daily flight to Haneda from Incheon, Delta cannot access Haneda via this flight due to restrictions on third country codesharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral."
"Korean Air also has three daily flights from intra-Asia limited Gimpo International Airport, which do not connect to any of Delta’s network."
"Delta cannot sell U.S.-Haneda or Haneda-U.S. itineraries via Incheon due to restrictions on third country code-sharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral"
Source: Delta's Reply.

In fact for example KE707 (GMP-HND) does not have a Delta code. But KE703 (ICN-NRT) has DL 7885 code.

They are selling the one-way GMP-HND-LAX route currently, but Delta may not get a revenue from the GMP-HND segment I guess?
And they are not selling the GMP-HND-LAX route at all for the round trip.
 
c933103
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 17, 2019 11:36 pm

https://prtimes.jp/main/html/rd/p/00000 ... 03358.html
Delta released a press release about the application in Japanese
HND-SEA will use 339, HND-DTW will use 359, HND-ATL will use reconfigured 772ER, HND-PDX will use 332, HND-HNL will use 763ER
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5735
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:51 am

Too bad IAH. Hopefully next time.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:05 am

I think I read that DL only got 5 of their 6 requests. What was #6? They got SEA, PDX, DTW, ATL, and HNL. They already do MSP and LAX. I don’t see what is missing.

They didn’t request SLC so it’s not that. If DL were to start SLC-Asia, my personal opinion is that KE 787 to ICN is the best choice.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13828
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:11 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Too bad IAH. Hopefully next time.


I don’t think this really is a loss for IAH. Right now IAH has two daily flights to NRT, 1 UA and 1 NH.. UA’s application was to replace their current IAH-NRT flight with IAH-HND. Leaving IAH with one daily to HND on UA and one daily to. NRT in NH. Japan is about to award additional frequencies to JAL and NH for US flights. My guess is that in light of UA not being awarded IAH-HND that NH will use one of there frequencies to switch IAH-NRT TO IAH-HND. And thus achieving the IAH-NRT and IAH-HND routes for the Joint Venture partners.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13828
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:12 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I think I read that DL only got 5 of their 6 requests. What was #6? They got SEA, PDX, DTW, ATL, and HNL. They already do MSP and LAX. I don’t see what is missing.

They didn’t request SLC so it’s not that. If DL were to start SLC-Asia, my personal opinion is that KE 787 to ICN is the best choice.


HNL-HND # 2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:13 am

STT757 wrote:
My take, If there were a viable business case for a US-Philippines nonstop UA would already by there from SFO. Right now UA only operates Guam-Manila with a 738. If DL were really committed to trying to make Manila work the only possible route that might work would be HNL-MNL. This is a route CO used to fly and Hawaiian currently flies. It would be very low yielding, and cater to local traffic.

With Singapore if they want to try a nonstop from Seattle the best argument against it would be if you can’t make Hong Kong work how is Singapore
Going to fair better?


Hawaiian no longer flies to Manila. Ended service years ago. The only American metal flying to Manila is Delta from NRT and UA from Guam.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13828
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:16 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
STT757 wrote:
My take, If there were a viable business case for a US-Philippines nonstop UA would already by there from SFO. Right now UA only operates Guam-Manila with a 738. If DL were really committed to trying to make Manila work the only possible route that might work would be HNL-MNL. This is a route CO used to fly and Hawaiian currently flies. It would be very low yielding, and cater to local traffic.

With Singapore if they want to try a nonstop from Seattle the best argument against it would be if you can’t make Hong Kong work how is Singapore
Going to fair better?


Hawaiian no longer flies to Manila. Ended service years ago. The only American metal flying to Manila is Delta from NRT and UA from Guam.


So there you go, if HA can’t make HNL-MNL work I don’t think DL will have anymore success with a nonstop the US from Manila.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:21 am

ITSTours wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
ITSTours wrote:

GMP-HND route is excluded, because the third country codeshare is prohibited on this route.
So probably not.


It is included in the JV. All trans-Pacific except China is included.


"Even though Korean Air has one daily flight to Haneda from Incheon, Delta cannot access Haneda via this flight due to restrictions on third country codesharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral."
"Korean Air also has three daily flights from intra-Asia limited Gimpo International Airport, which do not connect to any of Delta’s network."
"Delta cannot sell U.S.-Haneda or Haneda-U.S. itineraries via Incheon due to restrictions on third country code-sharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral"
Source: Delta's Reply.

In fact for example KE707 (GMP-HND) does not have a Delta code. But KE703 (ICN-NRT) has DL 7885 code.

They are selling the one-way GMP-HND-LAX route currently, but Delta may not get a revenue from the GMP-HND segment I guess?
And they are not selling the GMP-HND-LAX route at all for the round trip.


Correct. The Korea-Haneda flights can’t be codeshared, but the US-Haneda flights are still part of the JV.
 
NCAD95
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:50 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Sightseer wrote:
PW100 wrote:
So you are blaming the DoT for approving anti-competitive JV's in the first place. OK.

And then you are blaming DoT for approving DL PDX-HND because HND is a dead-end with having no JV partner at that end.

I don't get it either.


Its so frustrating to have one poster that literally finds anything about DL to post negatively, predominantly with false information (i.e., a troll). I've reported it many times.


I hope you are also reporting the trolls that spread misinformation of a positive nature as well or are you just reporting those that you disagree with.
 
VictorKilo
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 2:01 am

I wouldn't rule out a return of DTW-NGO-MNL. The demand from NGO is stronger in premium classes, while the demand from MNL is stronger in economy class. These two complementary markets were served by a 744 in the past, and could be served by a 339 in the future.
 
NWADTWE16
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:12 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 2:21 am

NW#71 DTW-NGO-MNL, this flight was a huge winner and was pretty evenly split between NGO end and MNL end pax. I too agree, that's a solution. Perhaps the same for SIN, but how DTW-HND-SIN or another hub? I really cant see both of those stations closed. DL is pathetically weak since NW days in Asia, losing those two long standing stations to this idea that everything can go over ICN would be horrid
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
c933103
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 2:48 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I think I read that DL only got 5 of their 6 requests. What was #6? They got SEA, PDX, DTW, ATL, and HNL. They already do MSP and LAX. I don’t see what is missing.

They didn’t request SLC so it’s not that. If DL were to start SLC-Asia, my personal opinion is that KE 787 to ICN is the best choice.

They have made 7 requests and second Honolulu frequency was the sixth while Guam was the seventh.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1361
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 3:12 am

VictorKilo wrote:
I wouldn't rule out a return of DTW-NGO-MNL. The demand from NGO is stronger in premium classes, while the demand from MNL is stronger in economy class. These two complementary markets were served by a 744 in the past, and could be served by a 339 in the future.

DL doesn’t have the Asian network like NW. back in the day NRT was a pretty sizable hub.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
BNORD1
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:14 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 3:15 am

updated?
 
ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 3:20 am

jrkmsp wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:

It is included in the JV. All trans-Pacific except China is included.


"Even though Korean Air has one daily flight to Haneda from Incheon, Delta cannot access Haneda via this flight due to restrictions on third country codesharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral."
"Korean Air also has three daily flights from intra-Asia limited Gimpo International Airport, which do not connect to any of Delta’s network."
"Delta cannot sell U.S.-Haneda or Haneda-U.S. itineraries via Incheon due to restrictions on third country code-sharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral"
Source: Delta's Reply.

In fact for example KE707 (GMP-HND) does not have a Delta code. But KE703 (ICN-NRT) has DL 7885 code.

They are selling the one-way GMP-HND-LAX route currently, but Delta may not get a revenue from the GMP-HND segment I guess?
And they are not selling the GMP-HND-LAX route at all for the round trip.


Correct. The Korea-Haneda flights can’t be codeshared, but the US-Haneda flights are still part of the JV.


I see no KE codeshare for DL's LAX-HND and MSP-HND as well.
But there is a KE codeshare for DL's NRT-HNL flight. Vice versa.

I suspect their JV does not include US-HND routes.
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 6:47 am

a19901213 wrote:
People need to stop assuming DL can fly to SIN from HND as long as they get the slots. They can’t.

As far as I’m concerned pretty much all countries need a bilateral agreement between Japanese authorities in order to fly in to HND.

Why would Singaporean authority give DL the right when themselves can only wish for more slots in HND? Same for JAL&ANA.


If SQ themselves is maxed out, this could be a win-win for everyone involved. SQ gets to keep Delta from directly competing with their new SEA direct flight, and the Singaporean government gets to retain an airline for more local competition and gets expanded service to Haneda.

(I don’t think HND-SIN on DL will happen, but I think Japan is more likely to block it than Singapore is.)
 
downdata
Posts: 551
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:38 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 7:22 am

c933103 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I think I read that DL only got 5 of their 6 requests. What was #6? They got SEA, PDX, DTW, ATL, and HNL. They already do MSP and LAX. I don’t see what is missing.

They didn’t request SLC so it’s not that. If DL were to start SLC-Asia, my personal opinion is that KE 787 to ICN is the best choice.

They have made 7 requests and second Honolulu frequency was the sixth while Guam was the seventh.


Guam was UA. DL/AA will never fly from Guam.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4939
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 8:40 am

flyoregon wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
PDX? What a waste. No connecting traffic on either end and Delta has cut the route twice in the past. It should have been saved for JAL or ANA.

DL runs so many flights between SEA and PDX, plus the fairly short drive time between the two, that PDX-HND is effectively a surrogate additional SEA-HND frequency, for any seats that PDX itself doesn't fill.


It’s not a short nor is it a convenient drive at all. That argument is tired.

I must have just rolled off the turnip wagon then, because i know people who will drive 4+ hours to catch a flight. I didn't say "most." But people do it. I've myself driven from Portland to Seattle to catch a flight. I make the drive between the two every week. It's not a big deal and it's certainly worth a fare difference of a couple hundred bucks.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 10:13 am

Is a BOS-HND flight more likely to go to JAL or to ANA, and why?
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
WingsOfLove
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:10 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
Is a BOS-HND flight more likely to go to JAL or to ANA, and why?


JAL has been flying BOS since 2012

ANA?
 
kavok
Posts: 555
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:15 pm

EK77WNH wrote:
Is a BOS-HND flight more likely to go to JAL or to ANA, and why?


I think JAL is more likely. ANA is going to have some tough decisions on where their 6 new slots go, and ANA is not going to have enough slots to serve everywhere they’d like.

From HND, ANA already serves JFK, ORD, LAX. For ANAs 6 new slots, I think a slot each to IAH and SFO are both locks. DEN and EWR are also possible. And to make their Tokyo flyers happy, I have to image they’d like to have some HND flights to Hawaii/Guam.

Point being, I think ANA has at least 6 destinations that rank higher than BOS, and I think ANA will concede BOS to JAL.
Last edited by kavok on Sat May 18, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:20 pm

I believe JAL and ANA can choose to fly wherever they want to from HND. There is no such restriction like in the US. If I remember correctly this was the argument from Delta about liberalizing HND gateway.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:27 pm

So now that Delta got most of the slots they wanted now means that the days of them flying to MNL and SIN are officially numbered.
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 146
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 12:53 pm

ITSTours wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
ITSTours wrote:

"Even though Korean Air has one daily flight to Haneda from Incheon, Delta cannot access Haneda via this flight due to restrictions on third country codesharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral."
"Korean Air also has three daily flights from intra-Asia limited Gimpo International Airport, which do not connect to any of Delta’s network."
"Delta cannot sell U.S.-Haneda or Haneda-U.S. itineraries via Incheon due to restrictions on third country code-sharing in the South Korea-Japan bilateral"
Source: Delta's Reply.

In fact for example KE707 (GMP-HND) does not have a Delta code. But KE703 (ICN-NRT) has DL 7885 code.

They are selling the one-way GMP-HND-LAX route currently, but Delta may not get a revenue from the GMP-HND segment I guess?
And they are not selling the GMP-HND-LAX route at all for the round trip.


Correct. The Korea-Haneda flights can’t be codeshared, but the US-Haneda flights are still part of the JV.


I see no KE codeshare for DL's LAX-HND and MSP-HND as well.
But there is a KE codeshare for DL's NRT-HNL flight. Vice versa.

I suspect their JV does not include US-HND routes.


Those are two separate things. There may not be codeshares because of Japan’s ridiculous Haneda restrictions, but the routes are still in scope for the JV. All profits and losses from the two carriers routes between “the United States includes the United States of America (including the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico, but not including any other U.S. territories), and Asia includes Cambodia, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Laos, Macao, Malaysia, Mongolia, Myanmar, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, and Vietnam.” They were very clear the ICN-GUM routes would not be covered, and that China was out of scope as well. If they were excluding Haneda, legally they would have had to say so.

Source: https://www.regulations.gov/contentStre ... ntType=pdf

(Yes, it’s an older document, but they still had Haneda service back then.)
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5402
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:07 pm

VictorKilo wrote:
I wouldn't rule out a return of DTW-NGO-MNL.


Too little of the big U.S.-MNL demand is east of DTW. The only hubs worth trying for U.S. carriers are LAX/SFO/SEA - and nobody's trying, so that says something. The business ties are heavily West Coast, too.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... ted-states
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 1:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VictorKilo wrote:
I wouldn't rule out a return of DTW-NGO-MNL.


Too little of the big U.S.-MNL demand is east of DTW. The only hubs worth trying for U.S. carriers are LAX/SFO/SEA - and nobody's trying, so that says something. The business ties are heavily West Coast, too.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article ... ted-states


There were rumors before that United was considering serving MNL non-stop from SFO, and a direct MNL-SEA flight (whether by PR or DL) has been rumored for years. I've also read before that the lack of non-stop flights by US carriers is more to do with protectionism and protests by PR than yields or other economic factors.
 
c933103
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 2:12 pm

ITSTours wrote:
I believe JAL and ANA can choose to fly wherever they want to from HND. There is no such restriction like in the US. If I remember correctly this was the argument from Delta about liberalizing HND gateway.

Problem is I don't even know whether JAL and ANA combined can come up with 12 destinations that they want to fly to in the US from the Haneda
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat May 18, 2019 8:11 pm

c933103 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
I believe JAL and ANA can choose to fly wherever they want to from HND. There is no such restriction like in the US. If I remember correctly this was the argument from Delta about liberalizing HND gateway.

Problem is I don't even know whether JAL and ANA combined can come up with 12 destinations that they want to fly to in the US from the Haneda


Certainly possible if they drop most of the current NRT routes.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos