c933103
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 7:04 am

Ishrion wrote:
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2019-0014-0081

Guam objects the allocations, asks for DOT to give UA one HND-Guam slot.

It would have make sense for Guam to get Haneda flight as that would match the stated goal of Haneda slot right expansion, which was supposed to enhance connection to short distance destinations.
This is a placeholder.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 10:47 am

Ishrion wrote:
Hawaiian Airlines' objection: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0014-0084

They're mainly talking about how HNL deserves more authority than LAX.


Not only that but they're bringing up the fact that LAWA (LAX) keeps jerking them around with terminal moves and somehow that should be factored into the DOT's HND award decisions.

"By contrast, in 2017, LAWA forced Hawaiian to move from Terminal 2 to
Terminal 5 to accommodate Delta, promising Hawaiian that it would not need to change terminals
again until a new terminal with a domestic baggage facility was opened. In breach of that promise
and to accommodate American’s growth at Terminal 5, LAWA proposes to compel Hawaiian’s
relocation in 2020 to the MSC"
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 12:28 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Hawaiian Airlines' objection: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0014-0084

They're mainly talking about how HNL deserves more authority than LAX.


Not only that but they're bringing up the fact that LAWA (LAX) keeps jerking them around with terminal moves and somehow that should be factored into the DOT's HND award decisions.

"By contrast, in 2017, LAWA forced Hawaiian to move from Terminal 2 to
Terminal 5 to accommodate Delta, promising Hawaiian that it would not need to change terminals
again until a new terminal with a domestic baggage facility was opened. In breach of that promise
and to accommodate American’s growth at Terminal 5, LAWA proposes to compel Hawaiian’s
relocation in 2020 to the MSC"

That really is strange to whine about LAWA and MSC rental fees in a DOT Haneda document. What does that have to do with Hawaiian flying to Haneda..? I guess it's just a continuation of the argument that HNL should have more service than LAX, but, to an outsider, it does seem like a "Hey, why does Portland even need Haneda service" would be a better argument than LAX but oh well.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5192
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 pm

c933103 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2019-0014-0081

Guam objects the allocations, asks for DOT to give UA one HND-Guam slot.

It would have make sense for Guam to get Haneda flight as that would match the stated goal of Haneda slot right expansion, which was supposed to enhance connection to short distance destinations.


What party had that as a stated goal?
 
amadorE175
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 1:57 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Hawaiian Airlines' objection: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0014-0084

They're mainly talking about how HNL deserves more authority than LAX.


Not only that but they're bringing up the fact that LAWA (LAX) keeps jerking them around with terminal moves and somehow that should be factored into the DOT's HND award decisions.

"By contrast, in 2017, LAWA forced Hawaiian to move from Terminal 2 to
Terminal 5 to accommodate Delta, promising Hawaiian that it would not need to change terminals
again until a new terminal with a domestic baggage facility was opened. In breach of that promise
and to accommodate American’s growth at Terminal 5, LAWA proposes to compel Hawaiian’s
relocation in 2020 to the MSC"

That really is strange to whine about LAWA and MSC rental fees in a DOT Haneda document. What does that have to do with Hawaiian flying to Haneda..? I guess it's just a continuation of the argument that HNL should have more service than LAX, but, to an outsider, it does seem like a "Hey, why does Portland even need Haneda service" would be a better argument than LAX but oh well.


They're not going after Portland because they recognize in their objection that geographic diversity is a key factor in DOT decision making. PDX fits that and LAX does not. HA also says that, after the geographic needs are met, the DOT has historically given more slots to where the local market is largest which, for TYO, would be HNL. And PDX too has sustained a flight to TYO while there's probably a good argument that all the LAX-HND capacity will not be sustainable.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2419
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 4:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
NYC to TOKYO:
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=/m/0 ... 0;sd:1;t:f
3 on UA/ANA and 2 on AA/JL
LAX to TOKYO
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=LAX. ... 0;sd:1;t:f
4 on UA/ANA + 1 on SQ and 3 on AA/JL, 1 on DL
I don't know how you can say their schedule to tokyo is competitive.


If you look at the flight times, there's very little variance. DL's flight to HND is within 30 minutes of AA's flight to HND. AA/JL and UA/NH have all their flights to NRT departing within about an hour and a half of each other, 1 to 2.5 hours after the HND flights depart. NH's HND flight is a late night departure, which is one of the only diverse timing options available. SQ's NRT departure is a bit later in the afternoon, but what is their level of cooperation with UA? Their flight doesn't come up as an option if I book through united.com...

So, while there's a bit of a gap (mostly between Star Alliance and the other two), DL's flight follows the same timing pattern as the majority of the other LAX-TYO flights, and is therefore reasonably competitive.

tphuang wrote:
Shanghai is simply not where big western banks put their primary TPAC office. They are there to serve the Chinese market, but due to monetary restrictions inside China, you simply can't do more than serve domestic market. It's funny that in other argument, you bring up PRISM, but here you don't discuss the corporate account travel expenses from NYC/LA to Asia market. I'd be shocked if Tokyo isn't top of the list with Hong Kong and Singapore after them.


You seem to be very narrowly focused on the Finance industry. Shanghai and Seoul have significant non-finance traffic (auto, manufacturing, tech, etc.), and to many more U.S. destinations than just LAX and NYC. If we were able to look at the volume of all business travel between the U.S. and East Asia, I'd be shocked if Singapore was higher than Seoul or Shanghai.

Star Alliance is absolutely the strongest in the U.S. to East Asia market, but SkyTeam is by no means weak when you consider the full picture.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 311
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 4:34 pm

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Shanghai is simply not where big western banks put their primary TPAC office. They are there to serve the Chinese market, but due to monetary restrictions inside China, you simply can't do more than serve domestic market. It's funny that in other argument, you bring up PRISM, but here you don't discuss the corporate account travel expenses from NYC/LA to Asia market. I'd be shocked if Tokyo isn't top of the list with Hong Kong and Singapore after them.


You seem to be very narrowly focused on the Finance industry. Shanghai and Seoul have significant non-finance traffic (auto, manufacturing, tech, etc.), and to many more U.S. destinations than just LAX and NYC. If we were able to look at the volume of all business travel between the U.S. and East Asia, I'd be shocked if Singapore was higher than Seoul or Shanghai.

Star Alliance is absolutely the strongest in the U.S. to East Asia market, but SkyTeam is by no means weak when you consider the full picture.


When United's corporate booking data was leaked, United was proud about Apple booking 50 business seats per day for SFO-PVG route.

The ranking was PVG-HKG-TPE-LHR-ICN-SIN-MUC-HND-PEK-TLV from SFO.

TPE and ICN are obviously tech routes. TSMC, Foxconn, Samsung, Hynix, LG...
 
tphuang
Posts: 2895
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri May 31, 2019 5:15 pm

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
NYC to TOKYO:
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=/m/0 ... 0;sd:1;t:f
3 on UA/ANA and 2 on AA/JL
LAX to TOKYO
https://www.google.com/flights#flt=LAX. ... 0;sd:1;t:f
4 on UA/ANA + 1 on SQ and 3 on AA/JL, 1 on DL
I don't know how you can say their schedule to tokyo is competitive.


If you look at the flight times, there's very little variance. DL's flight to HND is within 30 minutes of AA's flight to HND. AA/JL and UA/NH have all their flights to NRT departing within about an hour and a half of each other, 1 to 2.5 hours after the HND flights depart. NH's HND flight is a late night departure, which is one of the only diverse timing options available. SQ's NRT departure is a bit later in the afternoon, but what is their level of cooperation with UA? Their flight doesn't come up as an option if I book through united.com...

So, while there's a bit of a gap (mostly between Star Alliance and the other two), DL's flight follows the same timing pattern as the majority of the other LAX-TYO flights, and is therefore reasonably competitive.


I'm talking about strength into certain markets. If I'm flying to tokyo a lot, DL/ST wouldn't be much carrier of choice. I might actually intentionally pick SQ at NRT more often if I think their product is that good. When I travel internationally, I like being able to try out numerous carriers and then boast about it latter. And *A gives that option. That makes them more attractive to Tokyo than OW imo.

tphuang wrote:
Shanghai is simply not where big western banks put their primary TPAC office. They are there to serve the Chinese market, but due to monetary restrictions inside China, you simply can't do more than serve domestic market. It's funny that in other argument, you bring up PRISM, but here you don't discuss the corporate account travel expenses from NYC/LA to Asia market. I'd be shocked if Tokyo isn't top of the list with Hong Kong and Singapore after them.


You seem to be very narrowly focused on the Finance industry. Shanghai and Seoul have significant non-finance traffic (auto, manufacturing, tech, etc.), and to many more U.S. destinations than just LAX and NYC. If we were able to look at the volume of all business travel between the U.S. and East Asia, I'd be shocked if Singapore was higher than Seoul or Shanghai.

Star Alliance is absolutely the strongest in the U.S. to East Asia market, but SkyTeam is by no means weak when you consider the full picture.


well, finance industry are the biggest corporate accounts from NYC. SF might be different due to tech industry, but that's a market owned by UA, so it's kind of irrelevant in the discussion here.

I look at demand to Asia in 3 groups.
Legacy fortress hubs with TPAC service - cities dominated by one legacy carrier. All hub carriers are the dominant to Asia from their fortress hub markets.

non-legacy fortress hub cities with significant TPAC service - that would be NYC/LAX/SEA (ORD borderline on this list). So there is actually competition here to see which legacy carrier/network is the best option. NYC/LAX obviously have the most demand demand here, that's why I looked at them. Again, *A is the strongest here. If we consider local industries, I'd say OW is a little better than ST given the importance of Tokyo and HK. Again, I use this to think about where the high value demands are going to
http://3rjfy21znlo631twxe405qqvzc4-wpen ... AAEerl.jpg

cities without TPAC service - This you have to look at the 1-stop options. For example, someone living in Philly might pick *A instead of AA if they do mostly TPAC flying because service to Asia either by driving to EWR or connecting through YYZ would be more convenient than what AA could offer. And when you look at the best TPAC hubs for Americans to connect at, they are all *A hubs (YYZ/YVR/SFO/EWR). OW to me is the weakest, since there is no convenient airport to connect at if you want to go to India or Singapore or Seoul or most of China. ST is a little better, but you still can't get to Singapore or India or hong kong or Taiwan with 1-stop option. *A is simply so much more convenient than the other 2.
 
c933103
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:20 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=DOT-OST-2019-0014-0081

Guam objects the allocations, asks for DOT to give UA one HND-Guam slot.

It would have make sense for Guam to get Haneda flight as that would match the stated goal of Haneda slot right expansion, which was supposed to enhance connection to short distance destinations.


What party had that as a stated goal?

Japanese government
This is a placeholder.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3280
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:34 am

Guam complaining is like Dayton, OH complaining about the Amazon HQ2 process.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
YYZORD
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:35 pm

Never said they'd choose DEN over IAH, they can add IAH replacing their NRT route with HND. DEN and EWR would be new NH routes from HND along with a YYZ-NRT route to compliment the AC YYZ-HND route.

LAXdude1023 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Any chance for NH to add HND-DEN & HND-EWR with their 6 slots?


Why would NH ever choose DEN-HND over IAH-HND?
 
UA857
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:20 am

Will AA relaunch JFK-HND?
 
77H
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:02 am

compensateme wrote:
Guam complaining is like Dayton, OH complaining about the Amazon HQ2 process.


Not remotely similar and I’d wager you know that.

Dayton is a tertiary city in the rust belt of the US with little hope of attracting a massive tech, retail and logistics company.

The other is a popular tourist destination for much of East Asia, the majority of which originate from greater Tokyo and Japan at large.
Delving deeper, UA’s JV partner NH, who uses HND as a primary domestic hub allows for countless, seamless, 1-stop connections throughout Japan, connecting markets not large enough to justify nonstop service. Hence, “Japan at large”.

GUM pushing for UA service from HND is no different than HI and HA pushing for allocations to HNL and KOA. To that point, I imagine if GUM were to be included in JP-US market demand figures as detailed in above posts, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it rank above many of the “lanes” awarded to other carriers this go-around. It could also be argued that the economic gain for GUM would be greater than the economic gains to be realized in markets that were awarded.
If we analyze the HND slots awarded to date from a wholistic approach, what we’ve seen is that few airlines have been able to make HND work outside pacific tourist destinations and a handfull of routes off rhe West Coast.

77H
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5192
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:23 am

77H wrote:
GUM pushing for UA service from HND is no different than HI and HA pushing for allocations to HNL and KOA. To that point, I imagine if GUM were to be included in JP-US market demand figures as detailed in above posts, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see it rank above many of the “lanes” awarded to other carriers this go-around.


GUM is smaller in total international arrivals than DTW, PHL, CLT or MSP. See us-international-air-passenger-and-freight-statistics-september-2018 by the DOT.
 
kavok
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:07 pm

The biggest reason GUM didn’t get selected is because UA ranked them 6 of 6 in their choice preference. If you look at the DOT’s selection process (for all of the airlines), they followed the requested order for every carrier.

Point being, had UA put GUM (or IAH) in their top 4, GUM (or IAH) probably would have been selected over UAs listed fourth choice in LAX.

You can make all the arguments in the world why GUM did or didn’t get selected, but the main reason they didn’t get chosen was because UA put them #6 of 6 on their list.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5675
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Updated: US DOT awards Haneda slots

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:45 pm

UA857 wrote:
Will AA relaunch JFK-HND?


No. They showed they have no interest or they would have applied for it.
Religion is the root of evil...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos