marcogr12
Topic Author
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Why no LGW-FRA?

Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:53 pm

I have to admit i'm puzzled and amazed at the lack of flights to FRA from London's 2nd biggest airport..There are flights from LHR and LCY,as is to be expected, and then from STN by FR but not from LGW which is really strange..No BA,U2 or LH flying the route..The latter used to fly back in the 90s with the venerable 735s and 733s..But ever since..nix..I cant believe there is no demand to fly the route from LGW at least twice daily with either BA or U2..There are flights to MUC,HAM,STR,SXF,CGN but not to one of Europe's economic powerhouses??
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
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LH748
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 am

LCY is good for the business travelers and whoever wants to get to the city center quickly.
LHR is good for most BA and OW connections
LGW offers limited connections to vacation destinations and I don't really see the demand for a fourth London airport to get served.
LGW is a bit like ORY in my view and doesn't really need a connection to FRA
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bevan7
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:16 am

LH used to fly the route. I flew it in 2013
 
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flyer1225
Posts: 78
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:50 am

LH748 wrote:
LCY is good for the business travelers and whoever wants to get to the city center quickly.
LHR is good for most BA and OW connections
LGW offers limited connections to vacation destinations and I don't really see the demand for a fourth London airport to get served.
LGW is a bit like ORY in my view and doesn't really need a connection to FRA


Similarly, ORY has no connections to LHR, LGW, FRA, MUC, ZRH, and BRU.
6E/9W/AA/AF/AI/AS/B6/BA/DJ/DL/EK/FL/HA/IC/IT/JQ/LH/LX/OS/QF/S2/SG/UA/US/VS/VX/WN
 
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RWA380
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:51 am

marcogr12 wrote:
I have to admit i'm puzzled and amazed at the lack of flights to FRA from London's 2nd biggest airport..There are flights from LHR and LCY,as is to be expected, and then from STN by FR but not from LGW which is really strange..No BA,U2 or LH flying the route..The latter used to fly back in the 90s with the venerable 735s and 733s..But ever since..nix..I cant believe there is no demand to fly the route from LGW at least twice daily with either BA or U2..There are flights to MUC,HAM,STR,SXF,CGN but not to one of Europe's economic powerhouses??


LGW is a huge O/D airport, it operates with just one runway & it's already a pretty busy place, with a demand that is just increasing. I can deduct with an obvious finite number of operations during any given period of time, air carriers must become more intentional where they fly from LGW.

With both LH & BA operating multiple flights a day between LCY / LHR & FRA, why saturate the market & cannibalize traffic you can press through LHR or LCY, where they must operate for the all important business travelers? BA & LH obtain a premium out of LHR vs LGW, I have booked many a client & for the length, it's pretty expensive.

Which makes it appear as if any carrier could eventually end up discounting fares to attract enough traffic that is already used to alternate London area airports. I don't live there & I understand both are a couple of the largest metros in the World, but the logic I think stands to itself. I've booked it for decades & flown a few times, never to Gatwick, always Heathrow for the number of choices.
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factsonly
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:24 am

LH748 wrote:
LCY is good for the business travelers and whoever wants to get to the city center quickly.
LHR is good for most BA and OW connections
LGW offers limited connections to vacation destinations and I don't really see the demand for a fourth London airport to get served.
LGW is a bit like ORY in my view and doesn't really need a connection to FRA


One could argue that a major business centre route as LON-FRA, is not all that different from a route like LON-AMS.

But it seems the devil is in the details:

2017 CAA Route data:

- LHR-AMS = 1.689.924 passengers
- LHR-FRA = 1.501.134

- LGW-AMS= 1.074.208 passengers
- LGW-FRA = 89

- LCY-AMS = 598.424 passengers
- LCY-FRA = 247 322

- LTN-AMS = 785.646 passengers
- LTN-FRA = 15

- STN-AMS = 338.839 passengers
- STN-FRA = 54 861

- SEN-AMS = 190.836 passengers
- SEN-FRA = 31

Overall 2017:
- LON-AMS = 4.677.877
- LON-FRA = 1.803.452

So one could conclude from these numbers, that a market needs to be significantly bigger than LON-FRA at 1.8 Million passengers annually, to be served by all SIX London airports.
 
Andy33
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:33 am

Amsterdam is a major leisure destination for short breaks from the UK, as well as having significant business and connecting traffic. Frankfurt has the business and connecting traffic too, but is much less leisure-oriented. LGW airport and the airlines that serve it tend to be more focussed on the leisure traveller, though obviously they'll handle business travel too if it finds the flight times suitable.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:42 am

Frankfurt is nothing like Amsterdam.

Frankfurt during weekends is a ghost town. Amsterdam is one of the most popular city-break / stag party destinations in Europe. With Ryanair flying STN-FRA, FR already takes whatever non-business / bottom of the barrel traffic between London and Frankfurt.
 
TC957
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:01 am

LH have started and stopped FRA - LGW at least twice if not 3 times in the last 30 or so years. But it is odd that CGN, STR and soon DUS will all be served from LGW but not FRA. I'm sure the business community in the SE of England would welcome not having to endure the M25 to catch a FRA flight.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
Posts: 144
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:03 am

EasyJet have applied for slots at Frankfurt for many years for a LGW-FRA, maybe with the new low-cost terminal it might work.
 
factsonly
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:12 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Frankfurt is nothing like Amsterdam.

Frankfurt during weekends is a ghost town. Amsterdam is one of the most popular city-break / stag party destinations in Europe. With Ryanair flying STN-FRA, FR already takes whatever non-business / bottom of the barrel traffic between London and Frankfurt.


Completely missing the point !!

It is not about Amsterdam!!

The data indicate that a market needs a certain size to permit direct service from multiple LON airports, no more.

FRA just is not that size.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:18 am

factsonly wrote:
It is not about Amsterdam!!

The data indicate that a market needs a certain size to permit direct service from multiple LON airports, no more.

FRA just is not that size.


As usual, you post just data but you are unable to analyse it.

There are tons of destinations served from multiple London airports that have far fewer passengers than Frankfurt. You can "analyse" many Mediterranean airports in Spain (AGP, ALC, PMI, IBZ), Venice, etc.

London-Frankfurt is very business-heavy so there is little room for anything that does not involve LHR/LCY and Ryanair serves that market via STN. That easy.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:22 am

TC957 wrote:
LH have started and stopped FRA - LGW at least twice if not 3 times in the last 30 or so years. But it is odd that CGN, STR and soon DUS will all be served from LGW but not FRA. I'm sure the business community in the SE of England would welcome not having to endure the M25 to catch a FRA flight.


I don't find it surprising. With LON - FRA being so business - heavy, that means that during "off-peak" (e.g. weekends) times, BA and LH need to discount those flights. For instance, if you look at cheap flights from LHR on BA, very often destinations like BRU or LUX come on top during weekends, bank holidays, etc.

So easyJet would not be able to charge a lot for a "weekend city-break" for someone from Frankfurt flying to London because there is BA happy to sell those left-over Saturday FRA-LHR for peanuts.

In MAD-FRA you can see this often. Air Europa, LATAM and Iberia (Lufthansa usually has higher prices) sell that route very cheap in non-business days or holiday periods.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:22 am

TC957 wrote:
LH have started and stopped FRA - LGW at least twice if not 3 times in the last 30 or so years. But it is odd that CGN, STR and soon DUS will all be served from LGW but not FRA. I'm sure the business community in the SE of England would welcome not having to endure the M25 to catch a FRA flight.


However those cities all got much more leisure traffic than Frankfurt. They all got city centers that are good for sightseeing and spending a short city trip there. Frankfurt it not like that, other than business it has nothing. Nobody wants to go on a city trip to Frankfurt when there are so much better cities around in Germany.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 334
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:55 am

Perhaps worth remembering as well that a very large amount of Lufthansa's LHR-FRA passengers base is actually connecting traffic. If all other things being equal, we imagine that Lufthansa had their hub in Cologne instead of Frankfurt, would Lufthansa still operate so many flights on LHR-FRA ? I imagine the number would be a lot less

Note as well that Frankfurt is not actually *that* big a city in terms of population
 
ba319-131
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:57 am

BA used to fly to FRA from LGW, not sure when they discontinued the service, I flew it in 1994 according to my records.
111,732,733,734,735,736,73G,738,739,7M8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312,313,318,319,320,20N,321,332,333,342,343,345,346,388,CS1,CS3,I86,154,SSJ,CRJ,CR7,CR9,145,170,175,220
 
AIRT0M
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:00 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
TC957 wrote:
LH have started and stopped FRA - LGW at least twice if not 3 times in the last 30 or so years. But it is odd that CGN, STR and soon DUS will all be served from LGW but not FRA. I'm sure the business community in the SE of England would welcome not having to endure the M25 to catch a FRA flight.


However those cities all got much more leisure traffic than Frankfurt. They all got city centers that are good for sightseeing and spending a short city trip there. Frankfurt it not like that, other than business it has nothing. Nobody wants to go on a city trip to Frankfurt when there are so much better cities around in Germany.


Not true anymore. Frankfurt had enormous gains in tourist numbers (we're speaking about city tourism here, not just business travelers) in recent years. It is already number 3 in terms of stays after Berlin and Munich. Of course it's nothing compared to a world tourist hot spot like Amsterdam though.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:29 pm

From LCY BA CityFlyer has daily flights to FRA: 3 (Monday-Thursday), 2 (Friday), 1 (Sunday). Any tourism increase hasn't made it worthwhile to operate additional weekend flights. And CJ isn't just about business traffic as it flies to tourism-heavy places such as IBZ and PMI.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:45 pm

AIRT0M wrote:
Not true anymore. Frankfurt had enormous gains in tourist numbers (we're speaking about city tourism here, not just business travelers) in recent years. It is already number 3 in terms of stays after Berlin and Munich. Of course it's nothing compared to a world tourist hot spot like Amsterdam though.


Umm I wonder how many of those tourists are Chinese on a Central Europe / German tour flying to/from FRA spending a night in the city just heading to Goethestraße for some luxury shopping. Quite irrelevant for European "city breakers".
 
Andy33
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:21 pm

gunnerman wrote:
From LCY BA CityFlyer has daily flights to FRA: 3 (Monday-Thursday), 2 (Friday), 1 (Sunday). Any tourism increase hasn't made it worthwhile to operate additional weekend flights. And CJ isn't just about business traffic as it flies to tourism-heavy places such as IBZ and PMI.

Don't forget that LCY is closed from midday Saturday to early Sunday afternoon. Yes, there's no Saturday morning flight to FRA, but for it to return before the curfew starts would mean an unreasonably early departure from LCY, otherwise it's a night stop unless they an empty sector from FRA to a different UK airport and a leisure flight from there.
 
djb77
Posts: 258
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:34 pm

LGW>FRA was, I think, originally a British Caledonian and/or Dan-Air route (served by One-Eleven) that BA absorbed when they took over either BCal and/or Dan-Air. It was served by BA for many, many years, I (and my parents) used to take it regularly connecting to/from ABZ and FRA as of 1994. I think that the route was marketed by BCal and BA as being a connector to their their oil route to Houston, Texas. The route was originally flown by BA One-Eleven latterly by 737-300 and 737-400, also by Avro RJ100, up to three times per daily. My records show that I flew the route for the last time in 2002, that was on the Avro. I don't know when it was dropped by BA.
 
djb77
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 4:00 pm

Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:45 pm

djb77 wrote:
LGW>FRA was, I think, originally a British Caledonian and/or Dan-Air route (served by One-Eleven) that BA absorbed when they took over either BCal and/or Dan-Air. It was served by BA for many, many years, I (and my parents) used to take it regularly connecting to/from ABZ and FRA as of 1994. I think that the route was marketed by BCal and BA as being a connector to their their oil route to Houston, Texas. The route was originally flown by BA One-Eleven latterly by 737-300 and 737-400, also by Avro RJ100, up to three times per daily. My records show that I flew the route for the last time in 2002, that was on the Avro. I don't know when it was dropped by BA.


Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_C ... _the_1980s says: More routes to Europe

Following BA's decision to abandon the short-haul routes it had been operating from London Gatwick at low frequencies since 1978 and to surrender a number of unused licences to the CAA, BCal, Laker Airways and Dan-Air requested the CAA to transfer these licences to themselves.

BCal applied to take over BA's London Gatwick—Frankfurt route and its dormant Gatwick—Geneva[43] licence. BCal was awarded licences for both routes.[44][45][46]

The fairly liberal bilateral air services agreements between the UK and Germany as well as between the UK and Switzerland enabled BCal to commence double daily flights to Frankfurt and 10 services a week to Geneva within a relatively short time span following the award of the licences. This was the first time since 1974 that BCal was able to launch new routes from Gatwick to Europe. These were BCal's first scheduled services to Germany and Switzerland, which were going to be important sources of feeder traffic for the airline's long-haul services from Gatwick.

The launch of the two new routes coincided with the introduction of a dedicated business class cabin on all of BCal's short-haul flights to Europe, the first time the airline had offered two classes on its short-haul routes since its inception, with the exception of a brief period in the early 1970s during which it had offered a first class on the Gatwick—Paris route. BCal used the Executive Class brand for both its new European and its longer established long-haul business class.
 
santos
Posts: 526
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Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:11 pm

gunnerman wrote:
From LCY BA CityFlyer has daily flights to FRA: 3 (Monday-Thursday), 2 (Friday), 1 (Sunday). Any tourism increase hasn't made it worthwhile to operate additional weekend flights. And CJ isn't just about business traffic as it flies to tourism-heavy places such as IBZ and PMI.


After a quick research it looks like 5x Daily MON-FRI
 
marcogr12
Topic Author
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:47 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
AIRT0M wrote:
Not true anymore. Frankfurt had enormous gains in tourist numbers (we're speaking about city tourism here, not just business travelers) in recent years. It is already number 3 in terms of stays after Berlin and Munich. Of course it's nothing compared to a world tourist hot spot like Amsterdam though.


Umm I wonder how many of those tourists are Chinese on a Central Europe / German tour flying to/from FRA spending a night in the city just heading to Goethestraße for some luxury shopping. Quite irrelevant for European "city breakers".


You'll be surprised at how many european tourists spend weekend in Frankfurt and the Rhein area..I went in May and it was packed, which surprised as i thought it would be empty..Frankfurt may not be Berlin,Ams or London but it has gone up more than a notch as a city break destination offering a wide range of restos,bars and clubs and has a lot of fantastic museums with splendid exhibitions on both sides of the river,plus a lot of parks and green spaces..Not just Goethe's house..The skyline is great at night ,that's why they jokingly call it Mainhattan, and dont forget a lot of people visit Heidelberg and Baden Baden which are close by..And this from a guy who thought Frankfurt would be a boring finance city like the City in London with nothing to see and do..
Now as some guys pointed out BA and LH have scooped up the premium heavy traffic from LHR/LCY and FR the..remains of it,so why would any company (re)start flights from LGW? But shouldn't Easy have beaten FR to the punch already? Besides they charge heavily on business routes from LGW during weekdays..Would it be a lost cause? They have made CDG work when everybody thought it'd be a flop because of LHR and the connecting traffic, the Eurostar and boats off Calais..And Norwegian has got all the routes from LGW to Scandi cities competing daily against BA,SAS from LHR,LCY
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
fishmeal
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 1:40 am

Re: Why no LGW-FRA?

Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:34 pm

In 2007 three of us had to pay over 100 pounds for the bus between LHR and LGW in order to continue our trip from Frankfurt to DFW. That was good for somebody's bottom line since there were no direct flights.

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