alfa164
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Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:37 am

Air New Zealand flight 289 to Shanghai was forced to return to Auckland after discovering it had a "permitting issue".

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1PZ033

That apparently the second time within a year the same flight number was forced to turn back, although not necessarily for the same issue. Are the Chinese really this strict about allowing landings, denying arrivals at the last minute? Is it most likely a minor paperwork issue, or did NZ screw-up royally?
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flylondon
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:45 am

It turned back close to New Caledonia, more like a quarter of the way to China
 
AirbusA322
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:05 pm

Dig Deeper and this is the 3rd time this has occurred.

I assume there is some issue going on between NZ/China Governments currently this is corruption at its finest. ANZ is just the guinea pig here.
 
B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:46 pm

AirbusA322 wrote:
Dig Deeper and this is the 3rd time this has occurred.

I assume there is some issue going on between NZ/China Governments currently this is corruption at its finest. ANZ is just the guinea pig here.



Are you suggesting some conspiracy theories here? I think that is just pure bad memories, so bad they forget to register, because no Chinese planes to New Zealand have to ditch in, say, Cairns, or Guam, for that particular reason.
 
csavel
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:38 pm

I am actually curious how this works. I mean if a scheduled flight from country A to country B goes the country B every day, I would think there would be some sort of blanket permission for that scheduled flight so you don't have to file paperwork and get permission for each and every flight. Of course that permission can be revoked in the case of the plane being unairworthy or a security risk.

What was the 'techicality' mentioned in the article. Really want to learn more how these sorts of things are generally handled.
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jfk777
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:49 pm

The Kiwis should make an Air China flight turn back halfway from Peking to Auckland just to see their reaction.
 
David_itl
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Elsewhere it is suggested that this particilar frame doesn't have approval to land in China. Maybe someone can clarify the Chinese regulations on whether airlines have to stipulate which aircraft will be operating there?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:26 pm

Not too uncommon for every individual frame to be permitted for ops in foreign countries esp for insurance and noise certification reasons.
Due paperwork logistics and cost, many airlines chose to only permit portions of fleet to certain airports or countries.
For example many EU airports have noise certification registry which must be maintained and renewed frequently and this can become an administrative headache so some foreign operators opt to only register portion of fleets for ops at these airports.
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alfa164
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:54 pm

B1168 wrote:
Are you suggesting some conspiracy theories here? I think that is just pure bad memories, so bad they forget to register, because no Chinese planes to New Zealand have to ditch in, say, Cairns, or Guam, for that particular reason.


Forgot to register? Do you have any evidence to support that? They fly this route daily; it seems unlikely.

I hope someone can shed some light on the actual Chinese regulations in play here - and whether they are enforced capriciously or arbitrarily.
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coolian2
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:20 pm

flylondon wrote:
It turned back close to New Caledonia, more like a quarter of the way to China

I suggest an atlas for you
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B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:20 pm

alfa164 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
Are you suggesting some conspiracy theories here? I think that is just pure bad memories, so bad they forget to register, because no Chinese planes to New Zealand have to ditch in, say, Cairns, or Guam, for that particular reason.


Forgot to register? Do you have any evidence to support that? They fly this route daily; it seems unlikely.

I hope someone can shed some light on the actual Chinese regulations in play here - and whether they are enforced capriciously or arbitrarily.


Yes, they forget to register the plane operating the flight in China. As reported, the plane “doesn’t have regulatory approvals” to land in China.

Source: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/austr ... na-landing
 
B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:56 pm

To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.
 
smi0006
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:34 pm

B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Epic fail on NZs behalf then. Doesn’t sound like the Chinese did anything wrong, just Nz trying to shift blame
 
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:00 pm

smi0006 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Epic fail on NZs behalf then. Doesn’t sound like the Chinese did anything wrong, just Nz trying to shift blame


Scheduled dumbest reason for flight return of the year.
That is exactly how the local Internet users comment the entire thing,
 
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:27 pm

B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Does that particular aircraft fly everywhere else in NZ's network but never China - but suddenly it was the only aircraft available to fly the flight and they simply forgot that it isn't supposed to fly to China?
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B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:37 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Does that particular aircraft fly everywhere else in NZ's network but never China - but suddenly it was the only aircraft available to fly the flight and they simply forgot that it isn't supposed to fly to China?


Based on my knowledge, the plane never flew to mainland China. They flew to HK, but CAAC regulations don’t apply in HK.
 
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:49 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Does that particular aircraft fly everywhere else in NZ's network but never China - but suddenly it was the only aircraft available to fly the flight and they simply forgot that it isn't supposed to fly to China?



That particular configuration currently regularly does long haul to ORD/HKG/SIN they do go elsewhere when required, previously they went to IAH which is now a 777.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:56 pm

smi0006 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Epic fail on NZs behalf then. Doesn’t sound like the Chinese did anything wrong, just Nz trying to shift blame


Or it could be a last minute sub & NZ's route planners tried to request special dispensation from the authorities while the plane was en route, subsequently failing because China's authorities are not flexible.

Happens all the time to other airlines. A friend of mine who did route planning for MH a while back once shared how India denied flight rights to an MH flight operating to BOM because the plane they used was a last minute A333 sub, not an A332 (the old ones MH flew back in the early 2010s) that was registered in the approval application.
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B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
To be exact, that plane is not listed in CCAR-129 clause for Air New Zealand, which means it will not be eligible for operation in a China.


Epic fail on NZs behalf then. Doesn’t sound like the Chinese did anything wrong, just Nz trying to shift blame


Or it could be a last minute sub & NZ's route planners tried to request special dispensation from the authorities while the plane was en route, subsequently failing because China's authorities are not flexible.

Happens all the time to other airlines. A friend of mine who did route planning for MH a while back once shared how India denied flight rights to an MH flight operating to BOM because the plane they used was a last minute A333 sub, not an A332 (the old ones MH flew back in the early 2010s) that was registered in the approval application.


I suggest that this process will only take 2-3 weeks, if done in advance, say when delivered. To put it simply, the plane is never meant by NZ to fly to China, so it never registered.
It’s like you can’t use a non ETOPS-certified 73G to substitute AC’s YYT-LHR flight usually operated by an ETOPS certified 737 Max 8 just because it (theoretically) can.
If NZ plane allocation groups know that particular plane isn’t certified to fly to China, they shouldn’t let it do so. That is the real problem, that they have little to know idea what their planes can and can’t do.
Last edited by B1168 on Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:20 am

itisi wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The Kiwis should make an Air China flight turn back halfway from Peking to Auckland just to see their reaction.


What an idiot....


When you use any media in US...
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:21 am

B1168 wrote:
AirbusA322 wrote:
Dig Deeper and this is the 3rd time this has occurred.

I assume there is some issue going on between NZ/China Governments currently this is corruption at its finest. ANZ is just the guinea pig here.



Are you suggesting some conspiracy theories here? I think that is just pure bad memories, so bad they forget to register, because no Chinese planes to New Zealand have to ditch in, say, Cairns, or Guam, for that particular reason.


I am suggesting there is a conspiracy! That's all!!
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Megatop747-412
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:22 am

B1168 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Epic fail on NZs behalf then. Doesn’t sound like the Chinese did anything wrong, just Nz trying to shift blame


Or it could be a last minute sub & NZ's route planners tried to request special dispensation from the authorities while the plane was en route, subsequently failing because China's authorities are not flexible.

Happens all the time to other airlines. A friend of mine who did route planning for MH a while back once shared how India denied flight rights to an MH flight operating to BOM because the plane they used was a last minute A333 sub, not an A332 (the old ones MH flew back in the early 2010s) that was registered in the approval application.


I suggest that this process will only take 2-3 weeks, if done in advance, say when delivered. To put it simply, the plane is never meant by NZ to fly to China, so it never registered.
It’s like you can’t use a non ETOPS-certified 73G to substitute AC’s YYT-LHR flight usually operated by an ETOPS certified 737 Max 8 just because it (theoretically) can.
If NZ plane allocation groups know that particular plane isn’t certified to fly to China, they shouldn’t let it do so. That is the real problem, that they have little to know idea what their planes can and can’t do.


As a few others of mentioned, the plane is a "Code 2", 787-9 with a "premium heavy" config, which was not originally scheduled to operate into China. Too add to that, according to FR24, the plane operating the flight was ZK-NZQ, Air NZ's newest Dreamliner, having only been delivered in Sept 2018 - about 5 months old. Records, again from FR24 and as far back as I could retrieve, have not shown it operating into China previously, although I believe they have used other Code 2 frame to PVG before...
 
B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:41 am

Megatop747-412 wrote:
B1168 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Or it could be a last minute sub & NZ's route planners tried to request special dispensation from the authorities while the plane was en route, subsequently failing because China's authorities are not flexible.

Happens all the time to other airlines. A friend of mine who did route planning for MH a while back once shared how India denied flight rights to an MH flight operating to BOM because the plane they used was a last minute A333 sub, not an A332 (the old ones MH flew back in the early 2010s) that was registered in the approval application.


I suggest that this process will only take 2-3 weeks, if done in advance, say when delivered. To put it simply, the plane is never meant by NZ to fly to China, so it never registered.
It’s like you can’t use a non ETOPS-certified 73G to substitute AC’s YYT-LHR flight usually operated by an ETOPS certified 737 Max 8 just because it (theoretically) can.
If NZ plane allocation groups know that particular plane isn’t certified to fly to China, they shouldn’t let it do so. That is the real problem, that they have little to know idea what their planes can and can’t do.


As a few others of mentioned, the plane is a "Code 2", 787-9 with a "premium heavy" config, which was not originally scheduled to operate into China. Too add to that, according to FR24, the plane operating the flight was ZK-NZQ, Air NZ's newest Dreamliner, having only been delivered in Sept 2018 - about 5 months old. Records, again from FR24 and as far back as I could retrieve, have not shown it operating into China previously, although I believe they have used other Code 2 frame to PVG before...


The filing of planes under the CAAC regulation is done in an individual basis. That is, each and every foreign plane is to be registered to enter Chinese airspace. So, I suppose other Code2 frames have registered, but not this one.
As I mentioned before, NZ can register the plane within weeks of delivery, well beyond the 5 month range. So case closed, probably firing the entire scheduling team by the way.
 
danj555
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:43 am

so it sounds like it was a scheduling error on AZ part. They scheduled and flew the wrong plane into China.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:59 am

B1168 wrote:
The filing of planes under the CAAC regulation is done in an individual basis. That is, each and every foreign plane is to be registered to enter Chinese airspace. So, I suppose other Code2 frames have registered, but not this one.
As I mentioned before, NZ can register the plane within weeks of delivery, well beyond the 5 month range. So case closed, probably firing the entire scheduling team by the way.


I don't get the need to certify individual aircraft, as opposed to certifying an individual type. And by individual type, I mean individual variants - like in the case of 737s you certify 738s non-ETOPS, 738s ETOPS & 738 Max 8 separately.

Doing so would mean less bureaucratic hassles in the case of last minute subs. As long as the plane being subbed is of the certificated variant then it is ok.
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ubeema
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Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 am

First time I ever heard of this circumstance. Wonder what would have happened if the flight made it all the way?

Edited: apparently this not unique CAAC
Last edited by ubeema on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:12 am

B1168 wrote:
Megatop747-412 wrote:
B1168 wrote:

I suggest that this process will only take 2-3 weeks, if done in advance, say when delivered. To put it simply, the plane is never meant by NZ to fly to China, so it never registered.
It’s like you can’t use a non ETOPS-certified 73G to substitute AC’s YYT-LHR flight usually operated by an ETOPS certified 737 Max 8 just because it (theoretically) can.
If NZ plane allocation groups know that particular plane isn’t certified to fly to China, they shouldn’t let it do so. That is the real problem, that they have little to know idea what their planes can and can’t do.


As a few others of mentioned, the plane is a "Code 2", 787-9 with a "premium heavy" config, which was not originally scheduled to operate into China. Too add to that, according to FR24, the plane operating the flight was ZK-NZQ, Air NZ's newest Dreamliner, having only been delivered in Sept 2018 - about 5 months old. Records, again from FR24 and as far back as I could retrieve, have not shown it operating into China previously, although I believe they have used other Code 2 frame to PVG before...


The filing of planes under the CAAC regulation is done in an individual basis. That is, each and every foreign plane is to be registered to enter Chinese airspace. So, I suppose other Code2 frames have registered, but not this one.
As I mentioned before, NZ can register the plane within weeks of delivery, well beyond the 5 month range. So case closed, probably firing the entire scheduling team by the way.


It's worth pointing out this isn't in any way unique to China. All air operator certificates (and, by extension, foreign air operator certificates) require their holder to specifically list each of their aircraft (or, for a foreign AOC, all of the holder's aircraft which will operate to that country) and the ports to which each of those aircraft will be operating. Without going into detail, I am aware of at least one other B787 which, despite others identical to it within the same fleet, was not permitted to operate to the USA for a period of time when it was relatively new because the same paperwork had not been processed. The carrier had to make changes to its scheduling to accommodate an aircraft that could only operate a small number of routes. NZ needs to take responsibility for this situation - if it isn't listed on the AOC and foreign AOC, they've no business dispatching it there.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:16 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B1168 wrote:
The filing of planes under the CAAC regulation is done in an individual basis. That is, each and every foreign plane is to be registered to enter Chinese airspace. So, I suppose other Code2 frames have registered, but not this one.
As I mentioned before, NZ can register the plane within weeks of delivery, well beyond the 5 month range. So case closed, probably firing the entire scheduling team by the way.


I don't get the need to certify individual aircraft, as opposed to certifying an individual type. And by individual type, I mean individual variants - like in the case of 737s you certify 738s non-ETOPS, 738s ETOPS & 738 Max 8 separately.

Doing so would mean less bureaucratic hassles in the case of last minute subs. As long as the plane being subbed is of the certificated variant then it is ok.


Because individuals within a type have different equipment and specifications. The requirement to certify each aircraft to operate particular routes or ports is intended to ensure that all necessary regulatory requirements have been met.

Example: if QF was able to simply certify all its B738s to operate across its B738 network, they would be legally permitted (though obviously not stupid enough) to dispatch a low-MTOW, low-thrust individual without proper overwater operations equipment to destinations like DPS, NOU, NAN and New Zealand. As a regulator, that would not be a defensible position.
 
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:22 am

Deleted
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B1168
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:27 am

ubeema wrote:
First time I ever heard of this circumstance. Wonder what would have happened if the flight made it all the way?

Edited: apparently this not unique CAAC


I guess they will be banned from opening doors. They will get fuel and go to somewhere it is certified to go to, say Tokyo, fill up what the plane needs to return to New Zealand, and get the passengers delivered to PVG by (most likely) ANA.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:53 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
Because individuals within a type have different equipment and specifications. The requirement to certify each aircraft to operate particular routes or ports is intended to ensure that all necessary regulatory requirements have been met.

Example: if QF was able to simply certify all its B738s to operate across its B738 network, they would be legally permitted (though obviously not stupid enough) to dispatch a low-MTOW, low-thrust individual without proper overwater operations equipment to destinations like DPS, NOU, NAN and New Zealand. As a regulator, that would not be a defensible position.


This is why I advocate separate certs for variants. Surely in this example QF would have more than one low-MTOW, low thrust B738s in the fleet. Have separate certs for the variants in the B738 model designator and it would still be less of a bureaucratic hassle than certifying individual planes.
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ELBOB
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:44 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
The requirement to certify each aircraft to operate particular routes or ports is intended to ensure that all necessary regulatory requirements have been met.


But surely it's not for the 'receiving' regulator to worry about that, that is the responsibility of the 'sender'.

For example Aeroflot used to fly Il-62s and Il-96s to the USA, but neither type was certificated by the FAA. So the FAA had no way to verify that they met regulations, that was delegated to the Soviet Ministry of Aviation.
 
smartplane
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:11 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
B1168 wrote:
The filing of planes under the CAAC regulation is done in an individual basis. That is, each and every foreign plane is to be registered to enter Chinese airspace. So, I suppose other Code2 frames have registered, but not this one.
As I mentioned before, NZ can register the plane within weeks of delivery, well beyond the 5 month range. So case closed, probably firing the entire scheduling team by the way.


I don't get the need to certify individual aircraft, as opposed to certifying an individual type. And by individual type, I mean individual variants - like in the case of 737s you certify 738s non-ETOPS, 738s ETOPS & 738 Max 8 separately.

Doing so would mean less bureaucratic hassles in the case of last minute subs. As long as the plane being subbed is of the certificated variant then it is ok.

Chinese registration of foreign aircraft is managed by the military, as they control the majority of the airspace, and collect / manage fees.

Not like China has just introduced these rules.
 
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Faro
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:21 am

A fascinating insight into the bureaucracy of international air transport...very interesting indeed...


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ro1960
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:50 am

coolian2 wrote:
flylondon wrote:
It turned back close to New Caledonia, more like a quarter of the way to China

I suggest an atlas for you


Flylondon is right. Just look at the flight playback on fr24.
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coolian2
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:00 am

There's no way it's an 8 hour flight. I also believe the IFE photos of the turn back over PNG.
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
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classicjets
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Re: Air New Zealand flight turns back half-way to China

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:43 am

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110525 ... -to-taiwan
Being reported that it was due to references made by Air New Zealand to Taiwan being independent from China, though based on what has already been posted here, I think this sounds like a stretch.

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