mernest
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:51 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:58 pm

pbodyphoto wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
You forgot YYZ & YUL

pbodyphoto wrote:

AA still operates JFK to BWI, CVG, CLE, CMH, IND, BNA, ORF, PIT, and RDU. All non hub and all within the LGA perimeter. If you are asking about mainline then yes it appears that you are correct.


Since when did YYZ and YUL become domestic?


As YYZ and YUL both have preclearance, flights from those airports are not precluded from landing at LGA due to the lack of customs facilities there. The combination of that criterion and the perimeter were about distinguishing routes to JFK that could operate to LGA but AA chooses not to versus flights for which AA has no choice. (Indeed, AA serves BOTH LGA and JFK from YYZ and YUL.)
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:29 pm

tphuang wrote:
I took a look at the American Eagle operation out of JFK compared to last year and the year before. Pretty much everything else went from 50 seaters to 44 seaters. With the high operating cost of 44 seaters and beyond perimter routes getting cut left and right, I don't see how the MQ operation stays at current level. Not a surprise they are converting the eagle gates to a new widebody gate for BA.

AA started off by cutting some bad routes, which caused their relevance in JFK to drop and then some people to jump board. Now, routes that were marginal have started to bleed money. Would be interesting to see how much more go by this point next year. More and more routes will become marginal or loosing money as they cut more under performing routes.


Exactly--this winds up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Example: AA Eagle used to offer EMB-175 service on their BNA (where I live) - JFK flights, which I would take several times a year. While they still offer 2x daily (for now), both flights have been downgauged to EMB-145s, which I refuse to sit on for close to 3 hours. So I have been taking the BNA-LGA nonstop on the EMB-175 instead, even though I loathe LGA.

So the fewer people who take the BNA-JFK flight, the more willing AA is to downgauge it to a lower-quality product, which means even fewer people (i.e. business travelers) are willing to take it. I won't be surprised when the flight is dropped all together, sadly.
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:46 pm

It'd be nice if the on/off/on/off ATL-OAK flight finally sticks permanently, especially after DL dropped OAK-LAX (and has declined to start OAK-SEA)
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:05 pm

enilria wrote:
Well now it's completely gone
*AA JFK-MCO JUN 1.7>0[2] JUL 2>0[2] AUG 2>0[2] SEP 2>0[2] OCT 2>0[2] NOV 2>0[1.9]


No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.

enilria wrote:
*DL ATL-OAK AUG 0.3>0.6[0.3] SEP 0>0.6[0] OCT 0>0.5[0] NOV 0>0.6[0]


Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.

enilria wrote:
DL BOI-LAX JUN 1.0>1.8[1.0] JUL 1.0>2[1.0] AUG 1.0>2[1.0] SEP 1.0>2[1.0] OCT 1.0>2[1.0] NOV 1.0>2.0[1.0]


Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!

enilria wrote:
DL BUR-SLC SEP 4>5[4] OCT 4>5[4] NOV 4>5[4]


More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 277
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:37 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
Well now it's completely gone
*AA JFK-MCO JUN 1.7>0[2] JUL 2>0[2] AUG 2>0[2] SEP 2>0[2] OCT 2>0[2] NOV 2>0[1.9]


No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.

enilria wrote:
*DL ATL-OAK AUG 0.3>0.6[0.3] SEP 0>0.6[0] OCT 0>0.5[0] NOV 0>0.6[0]


Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.

enilria wrote:
DL BOI-LAX JUN 1.0>1.8[1.0] JUL 1.0>2[1.0] AUG 1.0>2[1.0] SEP 1.0>2[1.0] OCT 1.0>2[1.0] NOV 1.0>2.0[1.0]


Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!

enilria wrote:
DL BUR-SLC SEP 4>5[4] OCT 4>5[4] NOV 4>5[4]


More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!


I’m rather surprised by the DL BOI-LAX add. Although it is a nice option. Still wish Alaska would bring the route back. Apparently Allegiant is going three times a week at least for summer. In the past American also served the route.

I believe WN like most airlines at LAX has little room for growth so that’s why you see BOI/GEG-California adds to places other than LAX since they can easily route folks through numerous other airports rather than tying up a gate/plane at LAX.
 
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FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:48 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
I’m rather surprised by the DL BOI-LAX add. Although it is a nice option. Still wish Alaska would bring the route back. Apparently Allegiant is going three times a week at least for summer. In the past American also served the route.

I believe WN like most airlines at LAX has little room for growth so that’s why you see BOI/GEG-California adds to places other than LAX since they can easily route folks through numerous other airports rather than tying up a gate/plane at LAX.

I was surprised by this as well. Maybe they'll do the same with GEG-LAX in the future...
 
N649DL
Posts: 559
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:00 pm

N292UX wrote:
I'm stumped about what AA wants to to at JFK. They just announced a $300+ million renovation on T8, yet they keep cutting flights from JFK. Do they intend on cutting more markets from JFK, despite having the new facility, or do they plan on actually adding frequencies/markets from JFK?


I think it has more to do with T8 gradually becoming a consolidated OneWorld terminal. According to Wiki, BA is moving in soon too (odd since they own T7, unless they're knocking it down.)

There are routes that AA is strong on that I don't think will ever leave JFK like CDG, SAN, MAD, LAS etc. JFK-SAT begins shortly as well.
 
Justapax
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:31 am

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:04 am

UALFAson wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I took a look at the American Eagle operation out of JFK compared to last year and the year before. Pretty much everything else went from 50 seaters to 44 seaters. With the high operating cost of 44 seaters and beyond perimter routes getting cut left and right, I don't see how the MQ operation stays at current level. Not a surprise they are converting the eagle gates to a new widebody gate for BA.

AA started off by cutting some bad routes, which caused their relevance in JFK to drop and then some people to jump board. Now, routes that were marginal have started to bleed money. Would be interesting to see how much more go by this point next year. More and more routes will become marginal or loosing money as they cut more under performing routes.


Exactly--this winds up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Example: AA Eagle used to offer EMB-175 service on their BNA (where I live) - JFK flights, which I would take several times a year. While they still offer 2x daily (for now), both flights have been downgauged to EMB-145s, which I refuse to sit on for close to 3 hours. So I have been taking the BNA-LGA nonstop on the EMB-175 instead, even though I loathe LGA.

So the fewer people who take the BNA-JFK flight, the more willing AA is to downgauge it to a lower-quality product, which means even fewer people (i.e. business travelers) are willing to take it. I won't be surprised when the flight is dropped all together, sadly.


There are some on here who complain about "armchair CEO's" who don't understand airline economics. UALFASon, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. I won't fly the CR2s or E145s either. I know all about "right sizing" from reading A.net. The reality is, if an airline keeps cutting back larger, 2 cabin aircraft, until they are left with a bunch of 145s and CR2s flying routes that they were never designed to fly, that airline will wind up with fewer and fewer passengers.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 1104
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:50 am

Justapax wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I took a look at the American Eagle operation out of JFK compared to last year and the year before. Pretty much everything else went from 50 seaters to 44 seaters. With the high operating cost of 44 seaters and beyond perimter routes getting cut left and right, I don't see how the MQ operation stays at current level. Not a surprise they are converting the eagle gates to a new widebody gate for BA.

AA started off by cutting some bad routes, which caused their relevance in JFK to drop and then some people to jump board. Now, routes that were marginal have started to bleed money. Would be interesting to see how much more go by this point next year. More and more routes will become marginal or loosing money as they cut more under performing routes.


Exactly--this winds up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Example: AA Eagle used to offer EMB-175 service on their BNA (where I live) - JFK flights, which I would take several times a year. While they still offer 2x daily (for now), both flights have been downgauged to EMB-145s, which I refuse to sit on for close to 3 hours. So I have been taking the BNA-LGA nonstop on the EMB-175 instead, even though I loathe LGA.

So the fewer people who take the BNA-JFK flight, the more willing AA is to downgauge it to a lower-quality product, which means even fewer people (i.e. business travelers) are willing to take it. I won't be surprised when the flight is dropped all together, sadly.


There are some on here who complain about "armchair CEO's" who don't understand airline economics. UALFASon, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head. I won't fly the CR2s or E145s either. I know all about "right sizing" from reading A.net. The reality is, if an airline keeps cutting back larger, 2 cabin aircraft, until they are left with a bunch of 145s and CR2s flying routes that they were never designed to fly, that airline will wind up with fewer and fewer passengers.

I try to avoid the CR2, but I’ll fly the E140/5 on short hops, my bigger issue with the AA operation is reliability particularly on eagle out of LGA & JFK, compared to similarly timed DL & UA flights they’re significantly more likely to cancel or be late.. DL in particular has the CR9 on a lot of the 50 seater routes that AA & UA fly, I’m curious to see where UAL launches the CR550 from, EWR seems like a pretty logical choice to rotate out the ERJs
1.4mm and counting...
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5431
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:10 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
Well now it's completely gone
*AA JFK-MCO JUN 1.7>0[2] JUL 2>0[2] AUG 2>0[2] SEP 2>0[2] OCT 2>0[2] NOV 2>0[1.9]


No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.

enilria wrote:
*DL ATL-OAK AUG 0.3>0.6[0.3] SEP 0>0.6[0] OCT 0>0.5[0] NOV 0>0.6[0]


Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.

enilria wrote:
DL BOI-LAX JUN 1.0>1.8[1.0] JUL 1.0>2[1.0] AUG 1.0>2[1.0] SEP 1.0>2[1.0] OCT 1.0>2[1.0] NOV 1.0>2.0[1.0]


Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!

enilria wrote:
DL BUR-SLC SEP 4>5[4] OCT 4>5[4] NOV 4>5[4]


More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!


Just so we are clear:

More flights

More seats

More pax

From JFK to MCO than LGA MCO.

Please know facts, not a.net lore.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:19 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
Well now it's completely gone
*AA JFK-MCO JUN 1.7>0[2] JUL 2>0[2] AUG 2>0[2] SEP 2>0[2] OCT 2>0[2] NOV 2>0[1.9]


No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.

enilria wrote:
*DL ATL-OAK AUG 0.3>0.6[0.3] SEP 0>0.6[0] OCT 0>0.5[0] NOV 0>0.6[0]


Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.

enilria wrote:
DL BOI-LAX JUN 1.0>1.8[1.0] JUL 1.0>2[1.0] AUG 1.0>2[1.0] SEP 1.0>2[1.0] OCT 1.0>2[1.0] NOV 1.0>2.0[1.0]


Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!

enilria wrote:
DL BUR-SLC SEP 4>5[4] OCT 4>5[4] NOV 4>5[4]


More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!


Just so we are clear:

More flights

More seats

More pax

From JFK to MCO than LGA MCO.

Please know facts, not a.net lore.

I think the poster meant that all things being equal, LGA is the preferred airport for Florida over JFK. So not what is happening, but what would happen if both airports had free entry of capacity. Do you agree or disagree with that? I don't have an opinion.
 
evank516
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:57 pm

enilria wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:

No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.



Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.



Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!



More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!


Just so we are clear:

More flights

More seats

More pax

From JFK to MCO than LGA MCO.

Please know facts, not a.net lore.

I think the poster meant that all things being equal, LGA is the preferred airport for Florida over JFK. So not what is happening, but what would happen if both airports had free entry of capacity. Do you agree or disagree with that? I don't have an opinion.


For Long Islanders, the preferred airport for Florida is undoubtedly JFK. For example, between DL, B6, and AA there are 15 departures to MCO today, 4 on DL, 9 on B6, and 2 on AA. From LGA, there are 11 Departures to MCO today between DL, B6, AA, and F9. DL has 5, B6 has 4, AA has 1, and F9 has 1. So JFK has 4 more flights to MCO today than LGA has. I believe all of DL's NYC-MCO flights are on A321s now, as are the majority of B6's from JFK with A320s doing LGA-MCO for them. B6 spurred a lot of Florida demand from JFK that didn't exist prior to 2000, so I really can't see why you would say that LGA is the preferred airport.

I'd say that all things equal, LGA and JFK are equally preferred for flights to many areas of Florida, though LGA does have an edge on flights to PBI since DL only flies JFK-PBI on a seasonal basis now, and soon DAB (not sure about RSW, but I think JFK has more capacity with B6 flying mainline while DL flies RJs from LGA). Flights to MCO, TPA, FLL, and MIA are probably a draw.

JAX and SRQ seem to be more popular from JFK over LGA with DL flying mainline on JFK-JAX now for at least two of their 3 daily flights while LGA keeps all RJs, and B6 flying 3x A320s from JFK and nothing from LGA. SRQ sees 1x A320 on B6 while LGA sees 1x CR9 today though this changes depending on the time of year between mainline and RJs.
 
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enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9572
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:01 pm

evank516 wrote:
enilria wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

Just so we are clear:

More flights

More seats

More pax

From JFK to MCO than LGA MCO.

Please know facts, not a.net lore.

I think the poster meant that all things being equal, LGA is the preferred airport for Florida over JFK. So not what is happening, but what would happen if both airports had free entry of capacity. Do you agree or disagree with that? I don't have an opinion.


For Long Islanders, the preferred airport for Florida is undoubtedly JFK. For example, between DL, B6, and AA there are 15 departures to MCO today, 4 on DL, 9 on B6, and 2 on AA. From LGA, there are 11 Departures to MCO today between DL, B6, AA, and F9. DL has 5, B6 has 4, AA has 1, and F9 has 1. So JFK has 4 more flights to MCO today than LGA has. I believe all of DL's NYC-MCO flights are on A321s now, as are the majority of B6's from JFK with A320s doing LGA-MCO for them. B6 spurred a lot of Florida demand from JFK that didn't exist prior to 2000, so I really can't see why you would say that LGA is the preferred airport.

I'd say that all things equal, LGA and JFK are equally preferred for flights to many areas of Florida, though LGA does have an edge on flights to PBI since DL only flies JFK-PBI on a seasonal basis now, and soon DAB (not sure about RSW, but I think JFK has more capacity with B6 flying mainline while DL flies RJs from LGA). Flights to MCO, TPA, FLL, and MIA are probably a draw.

JAX and SRQ seem to be more popular from JFK over LGA with DL flying mainline on JFK-JAX now for at least two of their 3 daily flights while LGA keeps all RJs, and B6 flying 3x A320s from JFK and nothing from LGA. SRQ sees 1x A320 on B6 while LGA sees 1x CR9 today though this changes depending on the time of year between mainline and RJs.

This would probably require a leakage study to answer. I'm not sure the weighting of traffic between Long Island and the City.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:11 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
Well now it's completely gone
*AA JFK-MCO JUN 1.7>0[2] JUL 2>0[2] AUG 2>0[2] SEP 2>0[2] OCT 2>0[2] NOV 2>0[1.9]


No surprise there. LGA-MCO is probably far more popular with O&D travelers, while folks connecting to markets beyond JFK can easily be routed through other hubs.

enilria wrote:
*DL ATL-OAK AUG 0.3>0.6[0.3] SEP 0>0.6[0] OCT 0>0.5[0] NOV 0>0.6[0]


Interesting that LAX-OAK failed, but this is working out.

enilria wrote:
DL BOI-LAX JUN 1.0>1.8[1.0] JUL 1.0>2[1.0] AUG 1.0>2[1.0] SEP 1.0>2[1.0] OCT 1.0>2[1.0] NOV 1.0>2.0[1.0]


Another interesting development. WN can't make this route work (even seasonally), while DL and UA seem to have no trouble at all!

enilria wrote:
DL BUR-SLC SEP 4>5[4] OCT 4>5[4] NOV 4>5[4]


More good news for BUR. I wonder if DL is considering the addition of MSP-BUR at all. Such an addition would no doubt be very popular with LA transplants from not just Minnesota but the entire Midwest!




I believe WN like most airlines at LAX has little room for growth so that’s why you see BOI/GEG-California adds to places other than LAX since they can easily route folks through numerous other airports rather than tying up a gate/plane at LAX.

From GEG Southwest Airlines flies to Oakland, San Jose, and Sacramento with connections to LAX.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
laca773
Posts: 2080
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:39 pm

Seems like AA's lovely T8 @ JFK could very well become a One World Terminal. It seems like AA could easily have all their OW partners there. Currently, does AA use all the gates? It seems their usage is on the lower side when compared to the other JFK terminals.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5431
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: OAG Changes 2/10/2019:AA Exits JFK-MCO; DL Extends ATL-OAK

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:49 pm

As DL and B6 have built out JFK and post Airtrain arriving, many of the within LGA perimeter flights have shifted towards JFK...because there was (and is) room for growth.

No other option in a growing city.

LGA still holds a strangle hold on Midwest flying and high frequeny hub service within perimeter.

However, if Bluejet ever starts DFW, You will see American and Delta beef up their JFK Dallas services. This happened to ATL.

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