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scbriml
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:18 am

Carpethead wrote:
Just the same as back in late 1960s and 1970s to gear up for the 747. What's your point?
Most of it is money well spent whether the A380s is a regular or occasional visitor at that particular airport.


:checkmark:

Exactly! Trying to "blame" Airbus for airports making independent infrastructure decisions is ludicrous.
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Carpethead
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:34 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I wonder if any airports were upgraded for the A380 but ended up not having A380 service?

I found a list that says CVG is A380 capable but I don’t know if they actually had to make any upgrades.

CVG sees the 748F on a regular basis and is in the same class as the A380, Code F.
Furthermore, a good diversion airport for those going to IAH/DFW etc. with a large airport footprint and relatively light operations that one can park without adversely affecting airport operation.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:42 pm

The strengthened taxiways and runway will come handy in the future, because wheel loading is going up in all sizes of planes.
 
Noshow
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:44 pm

AFAIK 777-300ER and A340-600 gears put higher loads on the apron than the A380.
 
douwd20
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:54 pm

DarkKnight5 wrote:
“In use for ten plus years” does not mean net profit. Similarly writing down costs / amortizing /depreciating does not mean no one cares anymore. A loss is a loss is a loss. All relative of course, but to say “who cares if they spent a billion dollars i’m looking at a thirty year period” is just stupid. An honest calculation must include the cost of doing something with the benefit of doing something vs the cost of doing nothing with the POTENTIAL loss of Opportunity of not doing anything. Since no airline seems interested in using the A380 vs other widebosies, it seems the whole world has decided that money spent to accommodate the plane is poorly allocated.


Exactly. The money that went to build out an infrastructure for an airplane that will now vanish seems misguided in retrospect. Airports spent billions expanding their infrastructure. What better uses for that money could have been done.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:22 pm

douwd20 wrote:
Airports spent billions expanding their infrastructure.


You'd have a point if that infrastructure was never used. But it has been and will continue to be used for a good few years yet.
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ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:29 pm

seahawk wrote:
The strengthened taxiways and runway will come handy in the future, because wheel loading is going up in all sizes of planes.

The strengthening was for overall weight. The 77W has the heaviest wheel loading. Not the A388. Bridges had to be strengthened to support the 1.25 million pounds of the A380.

There will never be a new commercial transport with as high a MTOW as the A388. It’s 25% heavier than the 748, which is 25% heavier than the 77W, which is 10% heavier than the A350-1000.

The trend is for aircraft to get lighter.
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bikerthai
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:37 pm

Don't forget that most of the time when you spend billions for infrastructures, the money may be spent, but you are still paying for it for years or decades through re-payment of bonds or loans. How do you pay? By earning money from the landing rights of the aiplane that the infrastructure was built for.

Someone should estimate the fees earned by one A380 at a gate vs one or two smaller plane(s) at the same gate and see the difference.

Then we can see the real impact to those airports from the termination of the A380 line.

bt
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jumbojet
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:40 pm

Stitch wrote:
scbriml wrote:
[When launched, Boeing expected the freighter to represent just 25% of sales. They saw the passenger version outselling freighters 3 to 1. You could argue they were as wrong as Airbus.


However, Boeing quickly halted development of the Intercontinental when the initial responses were only from cargo operators and one or two VIP customers. It was not until LH agreed to order 20 that Boeing formally went forward with the Intercontinental, spending over $300 million to complete the design engineering.


The entirety of the Boeing 747 program was a huge success that spanned many decades, hundreds of airports and probably hundreds of operators. The Boeing 747-8 intercontinental falls within the purview of the 747 program and family of jets. The entirely of the A380 program was nothing short of a complete and utter failure.
 
douwd20
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
Airports spent billions expanding their infrastructure.


You'd have a point if that infrastructure was never used. But it has been and will continue to be used for a good few years yet.


Oh yeah considering landing and taxiing to the terminal, waiting on the stand, unloading passengers and baggage, cleaning, refuelling, re-loading, taxiing and take-off. It also means reviewing the check-in, security, boarding and baggage processes.

For example, an A380 needs three bridges at the stand for passengers to disembark, instead of the usual two. This has a knock-on effect on the position and movements of ground support equipment like catering trucks and refuelling equipment – more ground support equipment is required for an A380, sometimes up to 30 vehicles and those vehicles can’t simply take up the same positions that they would for a smaller aircraft.

When 615 passengers all arrive at the terminal at once, there’s a risk of longer queues at immigration, passport control, and the baggage carousels. So the airport needs to provide more desks, more staff and a larger baggage collection area.

So yeah all that is huuum well be of dubious value (none) when the masses of passengers expected to land don't show up.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:04 pm

IF Airbus had chosen to be more practical back at concept - possible 1 seat narrower on both decks, the - designed with a payload for range stretch, not more capability resulting in a peak efficient model (see 789 & -10 for a better model match up) at both sizes - it would still be in production

IF the 77W hadn't found the real sweet spot where it was really the preferred plane for economics, the 748i and A380 both would be in production. At the time of the launch of the 748's even Boeing didn't see what the hit the 77W would be, otherwise they would not have launched.

IF Airbus had waited to launch by 3 to 4 years, it would have gotten the Trent 1000 engines similar to what the 748 GEnX engines occurred. So instead of a low volume engine, a tie in to a high volume engine with lots of PIPs - the A380 would still be in production or would have been stillborn.
 
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:13 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Don't forget that most of the time when you spend billions for infrastructures, the money may be spent, but you are still paying for it for years or decades through re-payment of bonds or loans. How do you pay? By earning money from the landing rights of the aiplane that the infrastructure was built for.

Someone should estimate the fees earned by one A380 at a gate vs one or two smaller plane(s) at the same gate and see the difference.

Then we can see the real impact to those airports from the termination of the A380 line.

bt


The entity that owns the airport, like Port of Seattle owns SEATAC receives requests from airlines for service and capabilities - new gates, new hangers, runways, etc Airlines did request that SEATAC be modified to accept the A380. They determined that for the frequency of A380's, a max of say 4 per day would not generate sufficient fees to cover the cost, and a lot of the work did not provide a general benefit to the total operation - they found that other projects where more important and chose to not upgrade for the A380.

An airport like LAX chose to do the upgrades and receives quite a number of them, but a fraction of what was estimated to occur. The money is spent but it throws cold water on the next review process. They could ask from here on to pay up front for the improvements. Airlines build (or pay for) gates and the like all the time.

The A380 improvements are there now, just not an efficient expenditure, it is sort of like at the end of steam locomotives where every bridge needed to be massive. Now the locomotives weigh far less and with a lot less impact too.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:45 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Don't forget that most of the time when you spend billions for infrastructures, the money may be spent, but you are still paying for it for years or decades through re-payment of bonds or loans. How do you pay? By earning money from the landing rights of the aiplane that the infrastructure was built for.

Someone should estimate the fees earned by one A380 at a gate vs one or two smaller plane(s) at the same gate and see the difference.

Then we can see the real impact to those airports from the termination of the A380 line.

bt


The entity that owns the airport, like Port of Seattle owns SEATAC receives requests from airlines for service and capabilities - new gates, new hangers, runways, etc Airlines did request that SEATAC be modified to accept the A380. They determined that for the frequency of A380's, a max of say 4 per day would not generate sufficient fees to cover the cost, and a lot of the work did not provide a general benefit to the total operation - they found that other projects where more important and chose to not upgrade for the A380.

An airport like LAX chose to do the upgrades and receives quite a number of them, but a fraction of what was estimated to occur. The money is spent but it throws cold water on the next review process. They could ask from here on to pay up front for the improvements. Airlines build (or pay for) gates and the like all the time.

The A380 improvements are there now, just not an efficient expenditure, it is sort of like at the end of steam locomotives where every bridge needed to be massive. Now the locomotives weigh far less and with a lot less impact too.

Think of the train bridge in reverse. The diesel electric came later.

But airports designed runway and taxiway bridges with the future in mind, but not everyone saw the future at over 500 tons Taxi weight. The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over. Boeing kept the 748 below 500 tons, in order to make it far more compatible.

Yes, the 748 had long wings which would cause some disruptions at airports without proper spacing, and it could eat into neighbor gate space just enough vs 744 to force the next gate to have a smaller jet there, but it didn’t need any real airport mods. Boeing’s drawings showed how a terminal set up for all 744s in a row as many newer airports were could fit 748/772/748/77W/748/763 etc. The 748 can fit a typical international mix by simply repainting lines and some more careful planning.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:58 pm

ikramerica wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Don't forget that most of the time when you spend billions for infrastructures, the money may be spent, but you are still paying for it for years or decades through re-payment of bonds or loans. How do you pay? By earning money from the landing rights of the aiplane that the infrastructure was built for.

Someone should estimate the fees earned by one A380 at a gate vs one or two smaller plane(s) at the same gate and see the difference.

Then we can see the real impact to those airports from the termination of the A380 line.

bt


The entity that owns the airport, like Port of Seattle owns SEATAC receives requests from airlines for service and capabilities - new gates, new hangers, runways, etc Airlines did request that SEATAC be modified to accept the A380. They determined that for the frequency of A380's, a max of say 4 per day would not generate sufficient fees to cover the cost, and a lot of the work did not provide a general benefit to the total operation - they found that other projects where more important and chose to not upgrade for the A380.

An airport like LAX chose to do the upgrades and receives quite a number of them, but a fraction of what was estimated to occur. The money is spent but it throws cold water on the next review process. They could ask from here on to pay up front for the improvements. Airlines build (or pay for) gates and the like all the time.

The A380 improvements are there now, just not an efficient expenditure, it is sort of like at the end of steam locomotives where every bridge needed to be massive. Now the locomotives weigh far less and with a lot less impact too.

Think of the train bridge in reverse. The diesel electric came later.

But airports designed runway and taxiway bridges with the future in mind, but not everyone saw the future at over 500 tons Taxi weight. The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over. Boeing kept the 748 below 500 tons, in order to make it far more compatible.

Yes, the 748 had long wings which would cause some disruptions at airports without proper spacing, and it could eat into neighbor gate space just enough vs 744 to force the next gate to have a smaller jet there, but it didn’t need any real airport mods. Boeing’s drawings showed how a terminal set up for all 744s in a row as many newer airports were could fit 748/772/748/77W/748/763 etc. The 748 can fit a typical international mix by simply repainting lines and some more careful planning.


50 years ago airports were faced with a larger plane than before, the 747. Mostly the gates and hangers as it was 10 meters larger each way, not a lot of difference on the taxi and runways. Over time that investment paid off.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:12 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

The entity that owns the airport, like Port of Seattle owns SEATAC receives requests from airlines for service and capabilities - new gates, new hangers, runways, etc Airlines did request that SEATAC be modified to accept the A380. They determined that for the frequency of A380's, a max of say 4 per day would not generate sufficient fees to cover the cost, and a lot of the work did not provide a general benefit to the total operation - they found that other projects where more important and chose to not upgrade for the A380.

An airport like LAX chose to do the upgrades and receives quite a number of them, but a fraction of what was estimated to occur. The money is spent but it throws cold water on the next review process. They could ask from here on to pay up front for the improvements. Airlines build (or pay for) gates and the like all the time.

The A380 improvements are there now, just not an efficient expenditure, it is sort of like at the end of steam locomotives where every bridge needed to be massive. Now the locomotives weigh far less and with a lot less impact too.

Think of the train bridge in reverse. The diesel electric came later.

But airports designed runway and taxiway bridges with the future in mind, but not everyone saw the future at over 500 tons Taxi weight. The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over. Boeing kept the 748 below 500 tons, in order to make it far more compatible.

Yes, the 748 had long wings which would cause some disruptions at airports without proper spacing, and it could eat into neighbor gate space just enough vs 744 to force the next gate to have a smaller jet there, but it didn’t need any real airport mods. Boeing’s drawings showed how a terminal set up for all 744s in a row as many newer airports were could fit 748/772/748/77W/748/763 etc. The 748 can fit a typical international mix by simply repainting lines and some more careful planning.


50 years ago airports were faced with a larger plane than before, the 747. Mostly the gates and hangers as it was 10 meters larger each way, not a lot of difference on the taxi and runways. Over time that investment paid off.

The 747 was also far taller which added even more to the hangar cost and didn’t allow for parking nose first under awnings to board like the 707. It also required all new ground handling equipment in the form of tugs, air stairs, lifts, baggage loaders, catering trucks, container loaders, container carts, pallets, etc.
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Finn350
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:15 am

ikramerica wrote:
But airports designed runway and taxiway bridges with the future in mind, but not everyone saw the future at over 500 tons Taxi weight. The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over. Boeing kept the 748 below 500 tons, in order to make it far more compatible.


A380 MTOW is 575 tons. Where do you get “well over 600 tons” from?
 
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:48 am

douwd20 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
Airports spent billions expanding their infrastructure.


You'd have a point if that infrastructure was never used. But it has been and will continue to be used for a good few years yet.


Oh yeah considering landing and taxiing to the terminal, waiting on the stand, unloading passengers and baggage, cleaning, refuelling, re-loading, taxiing and take-off. It also means reviewing the check-in, security, boarding and baggage processes.

For example, an A380 needs three bridges at the stand for passengers to disembark, instead of the usual two. This has a knock-on effect on the position and movements of ground support equipment like catering trucks and refuelling equipment – more ground support equipment is required for an A380, sometimes up to 30 vehicles and those vehicles can’t simply take up the same positions that they would for a smaller aircraft.

When 615 passengers all arrive at the terminal at once, there’s a risk of longer queues at immigration, passport control, and the baggage carousels. So the airport needs to provide more desks, more staff and a larger baggage collection area.

So yeah all that is huuum well be of dubious value (none) when the masses of passengers expected to land don't show up.


Right. So which airports built all those triple bridge gates in expectation of A380 service, then didn't get it? Name them.

As for the 615 passenger nonsense, have you been at a major international airport when two 77W arrive within minutes of each other? No different, possibly worse because most A380s have comfortably less than 615 passengers.

ikramerica wrote:
The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over.


Come on, you're just making stuff up now! A380 MTOW is 575t.
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JustSomeDood
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:02 am

scbriml wrote:


ikramerica wrote:
The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over.


Come on, you're just making stuff up now! A380 MTOW is 575t.


Implying that stretches and increases in MTOW (which never panned out), but was nevertheless highly hinted at by Airbus circa 2005, was not factored in to airport construction projects to fit the A380 family.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:11 am

ARN got last year an A380 3-bridge gate (F66). They don’t have yet A380 service, but EK will likely upgrade their service to A380 in coming years.
 
musman9853
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:12 am

scbriml wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

You'd have a point if that infrastructure was never used. But it has been and will continue to be used for a good few years yet.


Oh yeah considering landing and taxiing to the terminal, waiting on the stand, unloading passengers and baggage, cleaning, refuelling, re-loading, taxiing and take-off. It also means reviewing the check-in, security, boarding and baggage processes.

For example, an A380 needs three bridges at the stand for passengers to disembark, instead of the usual two. This has a knock-on effect on the position and movements of ground support equipment like catering trucks and refuelling equipment – more ground support equipment is required for an A380, sometimes up to 30 vehicles and those vehicles can’t simply take up the same positions that they would for a smaller aircraft.

When 615 passengers all arrive at the terminal at once, there’s a risk of longer queues at immigration, passport control, and the baggage carousels. So the airport needs to provide more desks, more staff and a larger baggage collection area.

So yeah all that is huuum well be of dubious value (none) when the masses of passengers expected to land don't show up.


Right. So which airports built all those triple bridge gates in expectation of A380 service, then didn't get it? Name them.

As for the 615 passenger nonsense, have you been at a major international airport when two 77W arrive within minutes of each other? No different, possibly worse because most A380s have comfortably less than 615 passengers.

ikramerica wrote:
The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over.


Come on, you're just making stuff up now! A380 MTOW is 575t.



MCO spent millions on expanding for the a380, I think only a couple have ever landed here.
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ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:14 am

JustSomeDood wrote:
scbriml wrote:


ikramerica wrote:
The A380 is over 600 tons. Well over.


Come on, you're just making stuff up now! A380 MTOW is 575t.


Implying that stretches and increases in MTOW (which never panned out), but was nevertheless highly hinted at by Airbus circa 2005, was not factored in to airport construction projects to fit the A380 family.


Correct. The airports had to be upgraded to support what Airbus said was the potential max out of the A380-900 and A380F. The A380-800 was a “shrunk” of the baseline.

What would the point of strengthening to only support the base model A380-800.

Then of course, there is max TAXI weight which is a bit more than MTOW. And a factor of safety.

Design load well over 600 tons.

I have a degree in civil engineering with emphasis on structures. I know what I’m talking about. I can’t design an aircraft but I can design a bridge.
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ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:26 am

ikramerica wrote:
JustSomeDood wrote:
scbriml wrote:




Come on, you're just making stuff up now! A380 MTOW is 575t.


Implying that stretches and increases in MTOW (which never panned out), but was nevertheless highly hinted at by Airbus circa 2005, was not factored in to airport construction projects to fit the A380 family.


Correct. The airports had to be upgraded to support what Airbus said was the potential max out of the A380-900 and A380F. The A380-800 was a “shrunk” of the baseline.

What would the point of strengthening to only support the base model A380-800.

Then of course, there is max TAXI weight which is a bit more than MTOW. And a factor of safety.

Design load well over 600 tons.

I have a degree in civil engineering with emphasis on structures. I know what I’m talking about. I can’t design an aircraft but I can design a bridge.


Edit: and BTW in the USA, where I live and design structures, and where LAX is located, a ton is 2000lbs and the A380-800 is 600 tons. A METRIC TONNE is 1000kg.
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Lootess
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:00 am

IslandRob wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Delta CEO Ed Bastian gave some insight on the A380 shut down to Yahoo this morning when he talked about their fleet if anyone is interested:

https://twitter.com/YahooFinance/status/1096082726887710720


Thanks for link! To save a.netters some time, the portion of interest begins at time mark 5:05.

Bastian certainly has a lot of candid and interesting things to say about the A380 (e.g., "It's a good airplane to fly on. I've flown on the 380s. Delta doesn't have any, thank God.").

-ir


Can't forget after all Ed got to block Qatar from using the A380 gate in ATL, that had to been fun.

But alas I'm sure he's glad VS cancelled their A380 order and is getting A350s.
 
uta999
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:42 am

The original 388 design and its old tech engines were the equivalent of a 747SP. The fuselage length could have been the -900. It is way too much aeroplane for only a small gain in seats on the 77W. In the end most orders went to Boeing as planes got smaller not bigger.

Without the EK Effect of pulling in other carriers, the A380 would have sold a similar number of frames as the SP. If AB had chosen the bigger plane, I am convinced the whole project would have been cancelled before EIS.
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Aircellist
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:17 pm

YUL adapted to the A380, only to receive AF's for one or two summer seasons… Already long gone.
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WIederling
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:05 pm

seahawk wrote:
The strengthened taxiways and runway will come handy in the future, because wheel loading is going up in all sizes of planes.


much less strengthened than widened. A380 is relatively "soft footed". So gain in that domain may be marginal.
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WIederling
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:06 pm

uta999 wrote:
The original 388 design and its old tech engines were the equivalent of a 747SP. The fuselage length could have been the -900. It is way too much aeroplane for only a small gain in seats on the 77W. In the end most orders went to Boeing as planes got smaller not bigger.

Without the EK Effect of pulling in other carriers, the A380 would have sold a similar number of frames as the SP. If AB had chosen the bigger plane, I am convinced the whole project would have been cancelled before EIS.


How many frames had Airbus sold to EK before EIS ? :-)
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ikramerica
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:23 pm

WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The strengthened taxiways and runway will come handy in the future, because wheel loading is going up in all sizes of planes.


much less strengthened than widened. A380 is relatively "soft footed". So gain in that domain may be marginal.

Again, not wheel loading but overal weight. 77W has the most wheel loading and was causing some issues around the world. But fixing pavement loading issues isn’t in the same league as strengthening a bridge for 25% greater point load at center span.

Widening taxi and runway spacing is beneficial to airport ops in general. Increasing taxiway space behind gates is beneficial to ops in general. But strengthening a bridge to carry the weight of an A389/F only for that plane to be canceled, the number of A388s limited and actually declining, and no future aircraft ever (at least in the lifespan of the bridge) coming close to 1.3 million pounds makes those reinforcements truly wasted. It’s like retrofitting a roof in Las Vegas to carry the snow loads of Denver. It’s simply wasted money.

Edit: and what’s ironic is that some of those reinforcements may not have even been needed for the A388 If frequency of use was known to be limited. Just like aircraft suffer fatigue, so do bridges. Just like aircraft need inspection for cracks, so do bridges. But if it was known that bridge X would see only 10 A388 crossings per week over 15 years, calculations could be made to determine that the bridge will withstand the abuse and a simple inspection schedule created with possible corrective measures to address any local issues. But that same bridge wouldn’t be able to handle 24 A380 crossings per week for 30 years...
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Boof02671
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:08 am

What will happen with the new Belugas?
 
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Finn350
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:18 am

Boof02671 wrote:
What will happen with the new Belugas?


They will ferry parts for 110 A350s or so and countless A320s a year and won't ferry parts for 6 A380s a year or so after 2021.
 
marcelh
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:22 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
"Who cares"? Well tens of millions were spent building out an infrastructure that was billed as the future of aviation not a 10-20 year temporary enhancement. Those costs can now be arguably called a waste.


Not at all. Those facilities have already been in use for ten years and might be for another 20. The money has been spent, used and written off.

ikramerica wrote:
So a HUGE waste of money and inconvenience in extended time to modify the south complex.


Sounds like a bad decision by LAX. But I doubt anyone's losing sleep over it.

neutronstar73 wrote:
Scbriml, you can try to sell that nonsensical "Boeing were as wrong as Airbus", but, really, no one (but you) are buying your brand.


Despite their 'superior' market projections, Boeing still went ahead and built another passenger VLA. Go figure! :wink2:

Guess what, if they hadn't, 747 sales would be around 30-odd less than today because all those freight 747-8s would have been 747-400Fs instead.

exmike wrote:
I'm not sure smaller airports that see only intermittent A380 (or perhaps anticipatory) service would shrug at the 10's of millions they spent.


See above. It's spent, has been used and will continue to be used. Nobody cares.

“In use for ten plus years” does not mean net profit. Similarly writing down costs / amortizing /depreciating does not mean no one cares anymore. A loss is a loss is a loss. All relative of course, but to say “who cares if they spent a billion dollars i’m looking at a thirty year period” is just stupid. An honest calculation must include the cost of doing something with the benefit of doing something vs the cost of doing nothing with the POTENTIAL loss of Opportunity of not doing anything. Since no airline seems interested in using the A380 vs other widebosies, it seems the whole world has decided that money spent to accommodate the plane is poorly allocated.

Sue those pesky leftist Europeans
 
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seahawk
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:58 am

ikramerica wrote:
WIederling wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The strengthened taxiways and runway will come handy in the future, because wheel loading is going up in all sizes of planes.


much less strengthened than widened. A380 is relatively "soft footed". So gain in that domain may be marginal.

Again, not wheel loading but overal weight. 77W has the most wheel loading and was causing some issues around the world. But fixing pavement loading issues isn’t in the same league as strengthening a bridge for 25% greater point load at center span.

Widening taxi and runway spacing is beneficial to airport ops in general. Increasing taxiway space behind gates is beneficial to ops in general. But strengthening a bridge to carry the weight of an A389/F only for that plane to be canceled, the number of A388s limited and actually declining, and no future aircraft ever (at least in the lifespan of the bridge) coming close to 1.3 million pounds makes those reinforcements truly wasted. It’s like retrofitting a roof in Las Vegas to carry the snow loads of Denver. It’s simply wasted money.

Edit: and what’s ironic is that some of those reinforcements may not have even been needed for the A388 If frequency of use was known to be limited. Just like aircraft suffer fatigue, so do bridges. Just like aircraft need inspection for cracks, so do bridges. But if it was known that bridge X would see only 10 A388 crossings per week over 15 years, calculations could be made to determine that the bridge will withstand the abuse and a simple inspection schedule created with possible corrective measures to address any local issues. But that same bridge wouldn’t be able to handle 24 A380 crossings per week for 30 years...


But as we know, a new bridge is still nice to have. Reinforced concrete bridges that are approaching 40 years of age are often needing lots of inspections and costly overhauls more often than not. Especially while the calculated maximum load was still sufficient pre A380, the frequency of heavy planes using those taxiway bridges has way passed expectations made in the 70ies or 80ies.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:54 am

I forget, was it Leahy who put the guns to the heads of the Airport CEOs or was it Enders?

You pays your money, you takes your choice.
Your projections say there'll be loads of A380's and there isn't? Welcome to life Kiddo!

Fred
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WIederling
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:05 am

Finn350 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
What will happen with the new Belugas?


They will ferry parts for 110 A350s or so and countless A320s a year and won't ferry parts for 6 A380s a year or so after 2021.


which A380 parts were actually carried by Beluga ? ( afaik not much )
Murphy is an optimist
 
VV
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:45 am

Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:20 pm

VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.


It's easy to defend an obvious point.
It takes vision to explore new horizons.
The A380 was the fruit of vision and a small carrier from the sandpit used it as a tool to make itself the third largest airline in the world in the span of 8 years, while wiping away billions of potential profits from its competitors and forcing some of them like QF to capitulate and join forces.

I predict that within 10 years technology will come out that can make the A380 a twin with a small loss of range and better economics than any other aircraft.
It's not rocket science, the current A330neo has the same range as the original A343, so it is possible.

But by then Enders will be at the beach and playing with his grandchildren while the executives at Airbus bite their nails off at the lost opportunities from Enders ending the A380 program prematurely instead of putting it in the freezer.
Enders is making a huge mistake and I'm telling you so.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:32 pm

You know that thrust requirements are the limiting problem for a twin that size. The one engine out scenario is the commanding problem.
 
VV
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:47 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.


It's easy to defend an obvious point.
It takes vision to explore new horizons.
The A380 was the fruit of vision and a small carrier from the sandpit used it as a tool to make itself the third largest airline in the world in the span of 8 years, while wiping away billions of potential profits from its competitors and forcing some of them like QF to capitulate and join forces.

I predict that within 10 years technology will come out that can make the A380 a twin with a small loss of range and better economics than any other aircraft.
It's not rocket science, the current A330neo has the same range as the original A343, so it is possible.

But by then Enders will be at the beach and playing with his grandchildren while the executives at Airbus bite their nails off at the lost opportunities from Enders ending the A380 program prematurely instead of putting it in the freezer.
Enders is making a huge mistake and I'm telling you so.


I am not sure if you are serious or being sarcastic.

Would you please confirm whether what you said is serious? Thank you.
 
texl1649
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:04 pm

A tri-jet flying wing is almost certainly the next iteration of an actual VLA, but sadly I think it's at least 20 years off. Surely waterbomber was typing in jest.

Leahy hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, I note, but I do think one of his best sales jobs was convincing Airbus leadership to proceed with this aircraft. He was an amazing closer, no argument.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:14 pm

VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.

I've been trying to rub it in to people on here, the same people who said I was wrong. My posts get deleted and I received a warning.

It was fine for me to get called a Boeing fanboy every time I spoke negative about the A380 for years and the admins sat silent.

I'm enjoying this quite a bit.

On a positive note I made a personal bet with a work collegue regarding the A380 and I just won $5000 :bouncy:
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:23 pm

VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding?! They've been yelling "we tell you so" for TWENTY YEARS already!

(and don't flame me, but it honestly looked more like they bashed anyone who dared to defend the A380 than the other way round)
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
VV
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:08 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding?! They've been yelling "we tell you so" for TWENTY YEARS already!

(and don't flame me, but it honestly looked more like they bashed anyone who dared to defend the A380 than the other way round)


They can day, "I told you so." starting from last week only. What the heck?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:30 pm

VV wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding?! They've been yelling "we tell you so" for TWENTY YEARS already!

(and don't flame me, but it honestly looked more like they bashed anyone who dared to defend the A380 than the other way round)


They can day, "I told you so." starting from last week only. What the heck?


They DO say it, they DID say it, they NEVER STOP saying it. You make out like they suffered in silence.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Nickd19
Posts: 3
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A380

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:03 pm

With Airbus announcing the stop in production of A380 what are emirates going to do about fairly short routes to slot restricted airports. E.G LHR They already send up to 7 A380 surely long term this is just going to increase passengers cost. This shows 3 x A380 alone. https://youtu.be/vrlLJEbl-88
 
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Revelation
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:04 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
VV wrote:
Some bloggers have always had a consistent opinion on the market for big quads. The have all been bashed by all sorts of people.
They could potentially say, "I told you so.", But they don't say it.

It's easy to defend an obvious point.
It takes vision to explore new horizons.

Wisdom has to be factored in too.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The A380 was the fruit of vision and a small carrier from the sandpit used it as a tool to make itself the third largest airline in the world in the span of 8 years, while wiping away billions of potential profits from its competitors and forcing some of them like QF to capitulate and join forces.

I predict that within 10 years technology will come out that can make the A380 a twin with a small loss of range and better economics than any other aircraft.
It's not rocket science, the current A330neo has the same range as the original A343, so it is possible.

But by then Enders will be at the beach and playing with his grandchildren while the executives at Airbus bite their nails off at the lost opportunities from Enders ending the A380 program prematurely instead of putting it in the freezer.
Enders is making a huge mistake and I'm telling you so.

The thing you and fans of relics like 757 don't account for is the cost involved in waiting those 10 years.

Enders was fully aware of those costs as was Faury and they rethought that whole "digestible losses" thing.

There was no guarantee of profits if they waited ten years.

In fact there was the need to get an engine manufacturer to invest billions of dollars for a bespoke engine as well as them investing $0.5-1B or so to do everything to get to entry to service, then the need to find the sales to recover those costs and a healthy profit.

Instead they can take the ten years time, and all the resources that were tied up over that ten years, and redirect them to things they know are more profitable than A380 or future investments with more upside than A380.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:09 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
VV wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding?! They've been yelling "we tell you so" for TWENTY YEARS already!

(and don't flame me, but it honestly looked more like they bashed anyone who dared to defend the A380 than the other way round)


They can day, "I told you so." starting from last week only. What the heck?


They DO say it, they DID say it, they NEVER STOP saying it. You make out like they suffered in silence.

That's because they were right and continue to be right.

It's hard to understand the continued defending of the path that has been proven to be the wrong one.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Lewton
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:11 pm

So what will be the biggest model Airbus can offer?
Can the A350 be stretched further that the A35K?
 
VV
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:12 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
VV wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you kidding?! They've been yelling "we tell you so" for TWENTY YEARS already!

(and don't flame me, but it honestly looked more like they bashed anyone who dared to defend the A380 than the other way round)


They can day, "I told you so." starting from last week only. What the heck?


They DO say it, they DID say it, they NEVER STOP saying it. You make out like they suffered in silence.



What the heck? The "proof" happens only now. So they can say "I told you say" starting last week when Airbus confirmed the end of A380 production.

During years the others only said, "I warn you it will be a failure." And they got bashed. Only today they can say "I told you so."

I hope you can understand that. Otherwise I cannot help you.
 
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par13del
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:21 pm

VV wrote:
During years the others only said, "I warn you it will be a failure." And they got bashed. Only today they can say "I told you so."

I think we all know the genuine detractors of the A380 who always tried to give reasons for their opinion versus those who like you say, just wanted it to fail, unfortunately, we do a disservice to the forum when we lump them all together.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Official: Airbus announces A380 production to end in 2021

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:44 pm

The A380 launched 19 DEC 00, the B77W was launched on 29 FEB 00 so the big long range twin was already in the design space. On 14 NOV 05 Boeing launched the 748F anticipating 300 orders of both P and F. My point is that both manufacturers did not see the 77W being the tiger it became, but also the A380 design should have adjusted to the 77W threat as well as most VLA's prior to 2000 were purchased for their range not capacity.

The 748 could carry 410 in 3 class configuration, the A380 555. Had the 380 been designed more at the 500 typical pax level without a stretch in mind with full range using an engine common with another plane (the 744 used 4 of the same engines that were on the 767) a lot more efficiency could have been rung out. But Airbus bet the farm on the really big project. It is sad to see them miss so bad on this project's market case, now they can put a money maker into this production line.

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