TTraider95
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How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:46 am

Hello Everybody,

Once the merger between American and TWA was completed in December 2001 I was wondering how long it took American to repaint the planes, replace the interiors and, any other branding that might have needed to be taken care of?

I suspect any plans they had to retire the brand as quickly as possible but following 9/11 and their following financial problems changed them and AA moved slower.

Thanks Everybody!
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:57 am

The most recent photo I can find in the database here is from November 2002:



V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
BAINY3
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:03 am

There's an MD-80 cabin view pic on here that has a TWA bulkhead design with globes taken in July 2003.

 
tmu101
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:42 am

The last TWA livery was one of the nicest liveries out there IMHO.
 
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September11
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:50 am

well, have you see this plane?
Airliners.net of the Future
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:07 am

BAINY3 wrote:
There's an MD-80 cabin view pic on here that has a TWA bulkhead design with globes taken in July 2003.



Those seat covers are hideous!
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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CARST
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:16 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
BAINY3 wrote:
There's an MD-80 cabin view pic on here that has a TWA bulkhead design with globes taken in July 2003.



Those seat covers are hideous!


It's a classic mid 90s "you see no dirt and stains" design. Very similar seat covers were adopted by many arilines around the same, as well as rail companies for their train-seats, as well as in busses.
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:39 am

I feel like the TWA-AA merger was accomplished much more quickly than the more recent ones (DL/NW, UA/CO, and US/AA), even if you take into account the difference in sizes of the airlines involved. The acquisition of TWA by American was announced in mid-April 2001, and just under 8 months later on December 1, 2001 was TWA's last day. The ceremonial last flight was TWA 220 from MCI-STL, operated by the MD-80 named the "Wings of Pride" and flown by TWA's CEO Captain Bill Compton. At midnight that night, flights changed to AA flight numbers and AA callsigns. By early 2002, TWA crews were receiving and wearing AA uniforms.

TWA planes began receiving the short-lived TWA-AA hybrid paintjob very quickly after the merger was announced, even before the final day in December. The first photo in the database here is dated July 2001. This was an AA fuselage and stripes, with TWA lettering on the forward upper fuselage and up the tail, as well as "An American Airlines Company" lettering on the white cheatline underneath the TWA lettering. This hybrid paintjob was applied to the B717, B757, and MD-80.

In July 2003, my dad was going to fly his last flight before getting furloughed by AA after having been a pilot with TWA since 1990. At age 10, I didn't really understand what was going on, but I did know that I was excited to go to work with him for my very first time. Our flight was on an older (analog cockpit) MD-80. The interior was still TWA-era and the double-globe bulkhead carpeting (as shown in CARST's post above) was still present.

By that time, although all signage, airplanes, reservation systems, and flight numbers all showed as AA, the crewing operations were still split. In other words, TWA crews only flew TW planes on TW routes, and same with AA crews/planes/routes. The details of when this finally finished get messy, though, and I'm not clear on them. It is noteworthy to mention, though, that AA did allow some TWA Captains to retain their CA seats out of seniority (after having been stapled), but only in STL and only on the MD-80. This lasted approximately a decade, but then the STL crew based was finally closed.

I probably droned on about more than you asked for, but hopefully this helps shed some light and was helpful!

-------------

PS - This is not directly related to your question, but here's some info on what TWA's fleet was like there near the end and what happened to it all:

In December 2001, TWA's fleet consisted of B717, B757, B767-300, and MD-80. The B767-200 and DC-9 had been retired in mid-2001 (maybe expedited by AA? I'm not sure), and the B727s had been retired in September 2000.

The B717s were sold back to Boeing, and many of them got bought by AirTran and are now flying with Delta today. AirTran changed their registrations to N***AT, though, so they're not as easy to spot.

The B757s were retained for a few years and made it into full AA paint, but AA then dumped them because of the engine differences (TWA's had Pratts while AA's had Rolls Royces). I know I had seen an ex-TWA 757 in AA colors as late as 2007. Most of these are now still flying strong with Delta, and retain their N7**TW registrations.

The B767-300s were sold back to the leasing company by AA in 2002. Like the 757s, they had different engines than the rest of AA's fleet, but they bit the dust much quicker than the 757s did. The 767s stayed in TWA colors... in fact, a single one was even still in the 1980s red stripe paintjob into 2002!

Lastly, the vast majority of the MD-80s were kept around by AA for years. In fact, nearly all of the AA MD-80s still flying today are TWA birds, as TWA got some of the last ones off the line, including the very last MD-80 ever produced.


-Nick
 
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:50 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
Those seat covers are hideous!


They looked WAY better in person. I agree that they look terrible in the pic, though!
In person, these and the other color variations on the similar theme actually looked very trendy.
As an AA passenger at the time, I remember stepping on to my first TWA flights after the merger and thinking that the cabins looked far better than a lot of what AA was flying around.

On topic, the exteriors were updated much sooner than the interiors. TWA interiors soldiered on for years and years, as I recall.

Their fleet was pretty meager by that point:
Some 717's even got the merger paint scheme, though many didn't bother.
The DC-9's were parked very quickly, perhaps (memory fuzzy) even before the merger, but I want to say a FEW were left.
The MD-80s obviously stuck around, as well they should have, being the last ones built and only 2 years old at the time.
The handful of 757s, some got painted, almost all went to Delta.
The handful of 767s, I don't think were ever painted. AA ordered new ones to replace them.
AS for TWA's 50-strong, PW8000-powered A318 fleet... well, we all know how that went!
 
blacksoviet
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:38 am

AA737-823 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Those seat covers are hideous!


They looked WAY better in person. I agree that they look terrible in the pic, though!
In person, these and the other color variations on the similar theme actually looked very trendy.
As an AA passenger at the time, I remember stepping on to my first TWA flights after the merger and thinking that the cabins looked far better than a lot of what AA was flying around.

On topic, the exteriors were updated much sooner than the interiors. TWA interiors soldiered on for years and years, as I recall.

Their fleet was pretty meager by that point:
Some 717's even got the merger paint scheme, though many didn't bother.
The DC-9's were parked very quickly, perhaps (memory fuzzy) even before the merger, but I want to say a FEW were left.
The MD-80s obviously stuck around, as well they should have, being the last ones built and only 2 years old at the time.
The handful of 757s, some got painted, almost all went to Delta.
The handful of 767s, I don't think were ever painted. AA ordered new ones to replace them.
AS for TWA's 50-strong, PW8000-powered A318 fleet... well, we all know how that went!

Why did AA refuse to operate the TWA 767s?
 
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Polot
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:57 am

blacksoviet wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Those seat covers are hideous!


They looked WAY better in person. I agree that they look terrible in the pic, though!
In person, these and the other color variations on the similar theme actually looked very trendy.
As an AA passenger at the time, I remember stepping on to my first TWA flights after the merger and thinking that the cabins looked far better than a lot of what AA was flying around.

On topic, the exteriors were updated much sooner than the interiors. TWA interiors soldiered on for years and years, as I recall.

Their fleet was pretty meager by that point:
Some 717's even got the merger paint scheme, though many didn't bother.
The DC-9's were parked very quickly, perhaps (memory fuzzy) even before the merger, but I want to say a FEW were left.
The MD-80s obviously stuck around, as well they should have, being the last ones built and only 2 years old at the time.
The handful of 757s, some got painted, almost all went to Delta.
The handful of 767s, I don't think were ever painted. AA ordered new ones to replace them.
AS for TWA's 50-strong, PW8000-powered A318 fleet... well, we all know how that went!

Why did AA refuse to operate the TWA 767s?

Similar reason as to why they got rid of TWA’s 757s- different engine type than the AA fleet (PWs vs GE) and a different exit layout (on some of the 767s, TWA’s were not all consistent as some were acquired second hand).

Nowadays AA would probably just deal with having two engine types, but back then when AA was smaller, power by the hour deals were less common, and AA was trying to cut costs post 9/11 so that made the planes less attractive.
 
MLIAA
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:12 am

How big of a deal are different engine types though? In 2013 AA ordered separate engine types on the A319/A321 order. United doesn’t mind 2 engine types on 757/767/777 either.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
blacksoviet
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:13 am

Polot wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:

They looked WAY better in person. I agree that they look terrible in the pic, though!
In person, these and the other color variations on the similar theme actually looked very trendy.
As an AA passenger at the time, I remember stepping on to my first TWA flights after the merger and thinking that the cabins looked far better than a lot of what AA was flying around.

On topic, the exteriors were updated much sooner than the interiors. TWA interiors soldiered on for years and years, as I recall.

Their fleet was pretty meager by that point:
Some 717's even got the merger paint scheme, though many didn't bother.
The DC-9's were parked very quickly, perhaps (memory fuzzy) even before the merger, but I want to say a FEW were left.
The MD-80s obviously stuck around, as well they should have, being the last ones built and only 2 years old at the time.
The handful of 757s, some got painted, almost all went to Delta.
The handful of 767s, I don't think were ever painted. AA ordered new ones to replace them.
AS for TWA's 50-strong, PW8000-powered A318 fleet... well, we all know how that went!

Why did AA refuse to operate the TWA 767s?

Similar reason as to why they got rid of TWA’s 757s- different engine type than the AA fleet (PWs vs GE) and a different exit layout (on some of the 767s, TWA’s were not all consistent as some were acquired second hand).

Nowadays AA would probably just deal with having two engine types, but back then when AA was smaller, power by the hour deals were less common, and AA was trying to cut costs post 9/11 so that made the planes less attractive.

So what is power by the hour?
 
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Polot
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:25 am

MLIAA wrote:
How big of a deal are different engine types though? In 2013 AA ordered separate engine types on the A319/A321 order. United doesn’t mind 2 engine types on 757/767/777 either.

Back then when airlines were doing more of their maintenance in house having consistent engine types across a fleet was a big deal. Nowadays the legacies are at least twice as big as they were approximately, and outsourcing engine maintenance is more common among legacies. That makes having multiple engine types less of an issue as long as you can find someone to service them cheaply. In 2013 it was all about who gave AA the best deal/financing since they were in Chapter 11.

You have to remember this was almost 20 years ago and immediately post 9/11, airlines’ mindset were not completely the same as now when there are only 3 legacies rather than 6 and they are making tons of money.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 12:13 pm

I remember flying an MD-83 ORD-PVD in 2004 that had AA paint job & seat covers and the TWA bulkheads.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 pm

It was all very rushed by 9/11

The JFK hub never reopened post 9/11.

Hangar, terminal, operation shut down that day

AA took over MCO and a second CDG frequency and not much else

757s...i worked for AA at the time. This was perhaps Americans biggest blunder. I insisted that they couldn’t fly this fleet of planes and sold them to Delta. delta, in turn, use them to greatly expand the JFK hub with thin routes to Europe.

This directly impaled AAs NYC ops.

767s: Leased with unfavorable terms...returned quite quickly. this was also a small fleet of like 12 airplanes at the end

717s: Also dumped fairly quickly due to unfavorable finance terms
 
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AA777223
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 12:58 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
It was all very rushed by 9/11

. I insisted that they couldn’t fly this fleet of planes and sold them to Delta.

"I insisted"? We're you an AA exec/fleet planner at the time? I'm sure you have great stories.

I remember this era quite well. This was in my youth and my love of aviation was burgeoning. I lived in Dallas while growing up, and my family travelled on AA to Europe every holiday. I love learning as much as I can about this era in their history. My family had many friends affected by the AA/TWA merger. Such a different company than the AA we have today, and a totally different merger than the AA/US transaction.
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175/190, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
slider
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 1:00 pm

Another acquisition AA cocked up.

RIP TWA.
 
Dominion301
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 1:22 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
Those seat covers are hideous!


They looked WAY better in person. I agree that they look terrible in the pic, though!
In person, these and the other color variations on the similar theme actually looked very trendy.
As an AA passenger at the time, I remember stepping on to my first TWA flights after the merger and thinking that the cabins looked far better than a lot of what AA was flying around.

On topic, the exteriors were updated much sooner than the interiors. TWA interiors soldiered on for years and years, as I recall.

Their fleet was pretty meager by that point:
Some 717's even got the merger paint scheme, though many didn't bother.
The DC-9's were parked very quickly, perhaps (memory fuzzy) even before the merger, but I want to say a FEW were left.
The MD-80s obviously stuck around, as well they should have, being the last ones built and only 2 years old at the time.
The handful of 757s, some got painted, almost all went to Delta.
The handful of 767s, I don't think were ever painted. AA ordered new ones to replace them.
AS for TWA's 50-strong, PW8000-powered A318 fleet... well, we all know how that went!


The 717s got the hybrid as the original plan for AA was to keep them as I recall...but then 9/11 happened.
 
tmu101
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:04 pm

Still wish we'd see that latest TWA livery flying around - still one of the prettiest IMHO.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:56 pm

AA didn't buy the entire airline. It wasn't a merger, so integration went quicker. It was an asset sale. AA bought those parts of TWA they wanted and didn't take what they didn't want.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:08 pm

AA777223 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
It was all very rushed by 9/11

. I insisted that they couldn’t fly this fleet of planes and sold them to Delta.

"I insisted"? We're you an AA exec/fleet planner at the time? I'm sure you have great stories.

I remember this era quite well. This was in my youth and my love of aviation was burgeoning. I lived in Dallas while growing up, and my family travelled on AA to Europe every holiday. I love learning as much as I can about this era in their history. My family had many friends affected by the AA/TWA merger. Such a different company than the AA we have today, and a totally different merger than the AA/US transaction.



That should be “they insisted” typo!

I wish I was an executive!
 
sketch
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 6:13 pm

FlySail2015 wrote:
Lastly, the vast majority of the MD-80s were kept around by AA for years. In fact, nearly all of the AA MD-80s still flying today are TWA birds, as TWA got some of the last ones off the line, including the very last MD-80 ever produced.

And that last MD-80, N984TW, is still flying with AA today. I was lucky enough to fly on it myself a few weeks ago, DFW-MSY.
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 8:30 pm

Long enough to screw over the employees who worked at TW.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
AA didn't buy the entire airline. It wasn't a merger, so integration went quicker. It was an asset sale. AA bought those parts of TWA they wanted and didn't take what they didn't want.


I love the reminiscing here about the once-mighty TWA; however, this response is the best answer to the OP's question.

TWA was already, for all intents and purposes, dead. Their bankruptcy filing was (if I remember correctly), Chapter 7, and not Chapter 13, which, in the U.S., means immediate liquidation instead of reorganization.

Because it was an asset sale and not a merger or acquisition, Carl Icahn lost his desperate appeals to force Karabu upon AA.

Because it was an asset sale, TWA employees' roster was simply stapled to the bottom of American's employee roster.

The only place that held onto a "grudge", if you will, was Israel, as their laws state that TWA owed Israeli employees money, and whoever took over that route authority - however long that took - had to pay that bill before any new carrier from the U.S. could begin service. AA eventually paid it, and that settled the matter.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:22 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Because it was an asset sale and not a merger or acquisition, Carl Icahn lost his desperate appeals to force Karabu upon AA.


I didn't know about Karabu, so I found this oldie but goodie thread from 2000(!!) that explains it nicely

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39409
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
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Moose135
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:31 pm

September11 wrote:
well, have you see this plane?

That's an abomination and an insult to the proud TWA employees...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 1:41 am

slider wrote:
Another acquisition AA cocked up.

RIP TWA.

RIP TWA, you were truly one of the last greats.
 
cruiseshipcrew
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 1:44 am

FlySail2015 wrote:
I feel like the TWA-AA merger was accomplished much more quickly than the more recent ones (DL/NW, UA/CO, and US/AA), even if you take into account the difference in sizes of the airlines involved. The acquisition of TWA by American was announced in mid-April 2001, and just under 8 months later on December 1, 2001 was TWA's last day. The ceremonial last flight was TWA 220 from MCI-STL, operated by the MD-80 named the "Wings of Pride" and flown by TWA's CEO Captain Bill Compton. At midnight that night, flights changed to AA flight numbers and AA callsigns. By early 2002, TWA crews were receiving and wearing AA uniforms.

TWA planes began receiving the short-lived TWA-AA hybrid paintjob very quickly after the merger was announced, even before the final day in December. The first photo in the database here is dated July 2001. This was an AA fuselage and stripes, with TWA lettering on the forward upper fuselage and up the tail, as well as "An American Airlines Company" lettering on the white cheatline underneath the TWA lettering. This hybrid paintjob was applied to the B717, B757, and MD-80.

In July 2003, my dad was going to fly his last flight before getting furloughed by AA after having been a pilot with TWA since 1990. At age 10, I didn't really understand what was going on, but I did know that I was excited to go to work with him for my very first time. Our flight was on an older (analog cockpit) MD-80. The interior was still TWA-era and the double-globe bulkhead carpeting (as shown in CARST's post above) was still present.

By that time, although all signage, airplanes, reservation systems, and flight numbers all showed as AA, the crewing operations were still split. In other words, TWA crews only flew TW planes on TW routes, and same with AA crews/planes/routes. The details of when this finally finished get messy, though, and I'm not clear on them. It is noteworthy to mention, though, that AA did allow some TWA Captains to retain their CA seats out of seniority (after having been stapled), but only in STL and only on the MD-80. This lasted approximately a decade, but then the STL crew based was finally closed.

I probably droned on about more than you asked for, but hopefully this helps shed some light and was helpful!

-------------

PS - This is not directly related to your question, but here's some info on what TWA's fleet was like there near the end and what happened to it all:

In December 2001, TWA's fleet consisted of B717, B757, B767-300, and MD-80. The B767-200 and DC-9 had been retired in mid-2001 (maybe expedited by AA? I'm not sure), and the B727s had been retired in September 2000.

The B717s were sold back to Boeing, and many of them got bought by AirTran and are now flying with Delta today. AirTran changed their registrations to N***AT, though, so they're not as easy to spot.

The B757s were retained for a few years and made it into full AA paint, but AA then dumped them because of the engine differences (TWA's had Pratts while AA's had Rolls Royces). I know I had seen an ex-TWA 757 in AA colors as late as 2007. Most of these are now still flying strong with Delta, and retain their N7**TW registrations.

The B767-300s were sold back to the leasing company by AA in 2002. Like the 757s, they had different engines than the rest of AA's fleet, but they bit the dust much quicker than the 757s did. The 767s stayed in TWA colors... in fact, a single one was even still in the 1980s red stripe paintjob into 2002!

Lastly, the vast majority of the MD-80s were kept around by AA for years. In fact, nearly all of the AA MD-80s still flying today are TWA birds, as TWA got some of the last ones off the line, including the very last MD-80 ever produced.


-Nick


Nick thank you so much for your thorough and detailed information. Very interesting and appreciated!
James - Road Warrior
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 1:49 am

When were the TWA DC-9s finally retired? I thought they were still around for a bit into 2002?
The last aircraft I thought to wear TWA colors were the 767s?
 
Moosefire
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:02 am

Aurantiaco wrote:
slider wrote:
Another acquisition AA cocked up.

RIP TWA.

RIP TWA, you were truly one of the last greats.


There was absolutely nothing great about the last decade of TWA aside from a paint job.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:12 am

I get why the B763s were returned to the lessors...unfavorable lease terms. Had the TWA B752s been RR-powered, would AA have kept them?

To answer "power by the hour", if an aircraft lease is by that, the airline pays the lessor only based on when the plane is in the air, and only parking fees are paid while on the ground.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:42 am

Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 3:14 am

Moosefire wrote:
Aurantiaco wrote:
slider wrote:
Another acquisition AA cocked up.

RIP TWA.

RIP TWA, you were truly one of the last greats.


There was absolutely nothing great about the last decade of TWA aside from a paint job.

I meant it’s “golden age.” The Lockheed constellation comes to mind.
 
robsaw
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 4:54 am

DarthLobster wrote:
Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.


They actually didn't buy the airline, AMR bought the assets out of the 3rd time Ch11 filing by TWA. You have to remember that this purchase happened just months before 9/11, which precipitated massive layoffs across the airline industry resulting in many former TWA people losing jobs that were not intended to be cut by AA.

I fail to see how having those staff lose their jobs even sooner with a liquidation would have been "kinder".
 
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chepos
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 5:10 am

robsaw wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.


They actually didn't buy the airline, AMR bought the assets out of the 3rd time Ch11 filing by TWA. You have to remember that this purchase happened just months before 9/11, which precipitated massive layoffs across the airline industry resulting in many former TWA people losing jobs that were not intended to be cut by AA.

I fail to see how having those staff lose their jobs even sooner with a liquidation would have been "kinder".


Some posters on this site seem to get some joy in seeing airlines fold, it seems.

I know a few ex TWA peeps at AA today, that have been around since the TWA asset purchase. 9/11 dictated some of the actions with regards to how that acquisition went. No one in the airline industry knew 9/11 was going to happen. Had TWA been around as a standalone during 9/11, it would have closed shop in a matter of days. Every single person at TWA would have been worst off under that scenario.


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USAirKid
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 5:57 am

DarthLobster wrote:
Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.


Umm. There was this small thing called September 11th that happened that derailed lots of plans in the airline business. I’m sure that wasn’t AA’s initial plan when they bought the TWA assets, but things changed quickly.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:08 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.



The last half of your sentence is exactly what happened. The company died a natural death and was liquidated.
 
beerbus
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 3:02 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
DarthLobster wrote:
Bought the airline, parked the planes, laid off the employees, and closed the hubs. How in the hell this got past regulators is still beyond me. Letting the company die a natural death and get liquidated would have been kinder.



This didn't get past regulators- in-fact, it was controlled by the regulators: AKA: United States Bankruptcy Court

When a company goes into Chapter 7 Bankruptcy proceedings, its assets become an "estate" that is controlled by the Bankruptcy Court.

The estate is managed by a Court Appointed Trustee who then sells off the assets of the company that filed bankruptcy to satisfy people/businesses (creditors) owed money by the bankrupt company. All the Creditors file a claim to the Court stating what they are owed. All of the creditor claims get put into a pot, where they get paid on a pro-rata basis from the money derived from the liquidation. The claims are also prioritized via a formalized process in the courts. ie. bond holders (secured creditors) would get paid before a fuel supplier in STL.

In a simplified form- all the money collected through the sale off assets by the Trustee goes into a fund that is then distributed to creditors.

The Trustee takes offers for the assets of the bankrupt company to try to maximize the amount of revenue arising from the liquidation of the bankrupt company.

In the case of of an airline- some assets, like aircraft, are on equipment leases, and lacking payment- are returned to the lessee to with as they please. Stuff like owned aircraft, ramp equipment, and owned buildings, are sold or auctioned off, with proceeds going to the Trustee for distribution to creditors.

Sometimes package deals are developed between other companies, and the bankrupt estate. These package deals have to be approved by the Trustee, who again, is acting in the best interest of creditors.

In TW's case, AA went to the Banruptcy Trustee/Court and made an offer for a package of TW assets. The assets included certain gate leases, aircraft, and equipment. The assets they sought to purchase didn't include employees. Unfortunately, buying employees would have reduced the value of the assets. (bankruptcy is a heartless process) The offer was a public filing with courts. Available for all to see- which can sometimes stimulate a competitive bid for the assets of the dead company. That didn't happen with TW- AA was the only serious bidder for its assets.

The Trustee looks around for better offers- and if they don't see one, they seek approval to accept the offer from the creditors and court. If the both approve, the asset sale happens.

Remember- the Trustee is trying to maximize income derived from the liquidation which is then returned to creditors that have already been stiffed. (not paid)

A similar situation happened when DL purchased PA's route system, they bought routes and some aircraft, but didn't formally assume any PA employees.

NW acquired numerous DC-9's from the Trustee in the EA liquidation, and 727-200's via the Braniff liquidation.

Lastly, note TW was Chapter 7. That's liquidation. No more company.

The round of BK's in the late 2000's were Chapter 11- In that situation, a company with a good plan, is allowed to shed bad assets (non-competitive AC leases or labor contract for example), and go forward as a reorganized company. Creditors and sometimes employees get a hair cut on leases, debt and labor contracts, but the company is allowed to survive.
 
phllax
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 6:44 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The only place that held onto a "grudge", if you will, was Israel, as their laws state that TWA owed Israeli employees money, and whoever took over that route authority - however long that took - had to pay that bill before any new carrier from the U.S. could begin service. AA eventually paid it, and that settled the matter.


You know, AA has never come out and said publicly that it was paid, all they've said is that it was taken care of or a non-issue, with no specifics. Some theorize that it wasn't paid, and that is the reason why the PHL-TLV flight was cut so quickly after the merger.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Fri May 31, 2019 7:14 pm

phllax wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
The only place that held onto a "grudge", if you will, was Israel, as their laws state that TWA owed Israeli employees money, and whoever took over that route authority - however long that took - had to pay that bill before any new carrier from the U.S. could begin service. AA eventually paid it, and that settled the matter.


You know, AA has never come out and said publicly that it was paid, all they've said is that it was taken care of or a non-issue, with no specifics. Some theorize that it wasn't paid, and that is the reason why the PHL-TLV flight was cut so quickly after the merger.


Definitely a possibility; however, given that PHL-TLV operated even once means the Israeli government considers the matter closed.

TLV-United States non-stop is a tough nut to crack. Other than the NYC area, there's not a lot of demand for a non-stop - and the competition to TLV (and subsequent number of one-stops) makes me think this route won't re-appear.
 
Ryanair01
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:56 pm

TTraider95 wrote:
Hello Everybody,

Once the merger between American and TWA was completed in December 2001 I was wondering how long it took American to repaint the planes, replace the interiors and, any other branding that might have needed to be taken care of?

I suspect any plans they had to retire the brand as quickly as possible but following 9/11 and their following financial problems changed them and AA moved slower.

Thanks Everybody!


Starting summer 2001 I believe aircraft that stayed were fairly quickly repainted and some service item changes (e.g. inflight entertainment content). However I gather the cabins were left until they needed refurbishment. All other branding was gone on day one. There were however aircraft that were leaving the fleet flying around in TWA livery for at least a year.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:07 pm

As late as Fall 2002, AA was still using the TWA safety video on the 757-231. TWA LLC was operating separately under another certificate.
 
Wacker1000
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:34 pm

Aurantiaco wrote:
Long enough to screw over the employees who worked at TW.


By giving the soon to be unemployed jobs?
 
gen2stew
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:01 pm

No matter what kind of incontrovertible facts are put forward there will always be the TWA DERANGEMENT SYNDROME of "TWA was on the way back and needed just a little more time" or the "employees got screwed by that wicked AA and APFA". The airline was going to be gone and it was The Worst Airline at the end. No money for payroll, sky high lease rates, a shadow of a network, and 9/11.... AA AQUIRED That Worthless Airline and should have backed out and saved itself a long lingering mess. The sour grapes flight attendants sued APFA numerous times and LOST EVERY SINGLE CASE. Move on and leave memories where they belong. In the past.
 
USAirKid
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:19 am

robsaw wrote:
They actually didn't buy the airline, AMR bought the assets out of the 3rd time Ch11 filing by TWA.


beerbus wrote:
When a company goes into Chapter 7 Bankruptcy proceedings, its assets become an "estate" that is controlled by the Bankruptcy Court.

...

Lastly, note TW was Chapter 7. That's liquidation. No more company.


Robsaw is correct, the final TWA bankruptcy was a Chapter 11 bankruptcy. From a AA January 2001, press release:

As announced separately, TWA and certain operating subsidiaries have voluntarily filed petitions in the U.S. District Court in Wilmington, Delaware for protection under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy code. In conjunction with the Chapter 11 filing, American will provide TWA with $200 million in debtor-in-possession financing to ensure TWA's ability to maintain its operations throughout the completion of this transaction.
 
N983AN
Posts: 101
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:22 pm

Aurantiaco wrote:
Long enough to screw over the employees who worked at TW.


AMR did not screw the LLCers, their own bargaining representatives waived the successorship labor protective provisions in order for the deal to go through. Blame the IAM, not the company who extended them full company seniority. Had they not backed down APFA and TWU would have had to work through and honor a SLI. Why should AA unions honor a deal their own unions backed out of? The only groups that were outright staple jobs were the FAs and passenger service/reservation (unorganized at AA at time of transaction).

Throughout the AA systems nAAtives on all levels had our seniority cheapened as a result of this acquisition of a distressed worthless carrier. Buying LHR slots at a fire sale in 1991 under Crandall made great sense, an ego motivated purchase of the carcass in April 2001 under Carty much less so.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:20 pm

September11 wrote:
well, have you see this plane?

Do you understand the difference between a retrojet painted to reflect one of the previous companies that make the current AA, and the last "original" TWA-painted aircraft???
 
N649DL
Posts: 515
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:33 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
When were the TWA DC-9s finally retired? I thought they were still around for a bit into 2002?
The last aircraft I thought to wear TWA colors were the 767s?


Departed Flights has an AA/TWA Timetable from Summer 2001 and the DC9s were still operating out of STL to places like ORF, DAY, PIT, MSY. There were a whole bunch with 1-2x frequencies each.
 
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September11
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Re: How Long Did It Take American to Retire the TWA Brand?

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:34 am

WayexTDI wrote:
September11 wrote:
well, have you see this plane?

Do you understand the difference between a retrojet painted to reflect one of the previous companies that make the current AA, and the last "original" TWA-painted aircraft???


I think you don't understand. My post was in reference to post #4.
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