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J343
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Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:04 pm

This question was probably asked a million times but can't seem to find answers. But why did CX not order the B787?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:06 pm

Because they didn't see the need, it didn't fit their plan, it was too expansive. Pick one.
 
Arion640
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:09 pm

Was the 787 or the A350. Was a famous scoop of John Leahy that they bought the A350 instead. I also think the A350 probably slightly suits their business better.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:10 pm

Probably too small for their long haul routes. But the -10 would be ideal for their regional routes; maybe their regional planes are not ready for replacement. Or they want something bigger to replace the 773s.
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flee
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:15 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Was the 787 or the A350. Was a famous scoop of John Leahy that they bought the A350 instead. I also think the A350 probably slightly suits their business better.

They usually say that the aircraft they buy must fit in with their network's requirement.

Like many Asian carriers, cargo capability is quite an important metric at CX. That was why the A380 did not meet their needs. The A359 and A35K are probably a better fit in their network compared to the B787 family.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:23 pm

That's interesting, since right now, CX/KA seems to have a need to replace at least the 12 212t A333s and 13 230t A333s (CX and KA together operate 58 A330-300 planes). That fleet includes the first A330-300 ever built, B-HLJ, and the second, B-HLK (both were Airbus test frames for 5 years). That order could come soon as those 212t A333s could time out soon.

The B787 is not an adequate long-haul replacement though except for maybe flights to Japan, as only the B78X is big enough to get in a B77W-sized 4-class cabin.
 
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flee
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:37 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That's interesting, since right now, CX/KA seems to have a need to replace at least the 12 212t A333s and 13 230t A333s (CX and KA together operate 58 A330-300 planes). That fleet includes the first A330-300 ever built, B-HLJ, and the second, B-HLK (both were Airbus test frames for 5 years). That order could come soon as those 212t A333s could time out soon.

Yes, the A330s are used on their regional network - it is normal practice for CX to hand over their old frames to KA. B-HLJ/K are now flying for KA. If normal practice continues, CX will hand over its A333s to KA when there is a need. With many of KA's fleet now over 20 years old, replacements should be coming sooner rather than later.

CX's has 3 A333s that are over 20 years old but the rest are still young enough to be transferred to KA.

What would be interesting to see is what CX will select for its regional fleet. A330Neo, A350 and B787s will surely be fighting for this order.
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:38 pm

J343 wrote:
This question was probably asked a million times but can't seem to find answers. But why did CX not order the B787?


Yet. The plane is still in production.
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StTim
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:40 pm

You know it is possible for an airline to choose a product other than the 787 and for it to be the best choice for them and not just anti Boeing/a give away by Airbus.
 
raylee67
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:40 pm

The decision to go with A350 probably is influenced by the very positive experience with the A330 too. CX was one of the first to order the A330 and it was the launch customer of RR-powered A330. From there, it sees constant and continuous improvement for the A330. In 1994, when the first was delivered, A330 can only be used to fly to E. Asia and India. Gradually, their range was extended to cover Middle East, and then West Australia, and then all of Australia, and CX/KA just keep ordering more. The type underpins the exponential growth of CX's network and business.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That's interesting, since right now, CX/KA seems to have a need to replace at least the 12 212t A333s and 13 230t A333s (CX and KA together operate 58 A330-300 planes). That fleet includes the first A330-300 ever built, B-HLJ, and the second, B-HLK (both were Airbus test frames for 5 years). That order could come soon as those 212t A333s could time out soon.

The B787 is not an adequate long-haul replacement though except for maybe flights to Japan, as only the B78X is big enough to get in a B77W-sized 4-class cabin.


I am sure Airbus is fighting for that A333 replacement order with the A330-900NEO. That would offer continuity of crew training, certification, maintenance and even customer experience. While Boeing for sure is trying to sell the 787-10 to CX for this, it would face a tough competition. But given CX's focus on cutting backs on costs, it probably is not ready to make a large order just yet.
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Ziyulu
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:54 pm

If cargo was important, they would have ordered the 748.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:06 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
If cargo was important, they would have ordered the 748.


And they DO have 748...freighters that is.

As for the OP's question - basically it came down to 350 vs. 787, and A350 won out. It's no different than DL not ordering 787s anyway (Ok, there's a difference - i.e. CX long-haul fleet in 77W is much larger).

As for "regional" plane replacement - they can, at least on short term, "abuse" some of their older 77Ws, use up the remaining life of those 773A (They just got 5 second-hand one from EK for that), and go from there. It would not surprised me if they order some derated A359s/A35Ks for "regional" route eventually also (A330neo is also a possibility, and of course, they can always pull a SQ and order a bunch of 787-10 to replace all their A333/B773A).
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:07 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
If cargo was important, they would have ordered the 748.


I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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flee
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:34 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
If cargo was important, they would have ordered the 748.


Yes, and their fleet is 14 strong!
 
airzona11
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:48 pm

The 787 will be in production for long time to come, very possible they will order it in the coming decade.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:20 pm

Probably same reason why LH didn't. The -8 & -9 were too small for their large home markets and the -10 didn't have the payload-range they wanted (or hadn't been available at the time). The more capable A350 & 777-9 just fit their network better. For example, the 787-10 would probably struggle on HKG-US east coast routes.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:03 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Probably same reason why LH didn't. The -8 & -9 were too small for their large home markets and the -10 didn't have the payload-range they wanted (or hadn't been available at the time). The more capable A350 & 777-9 just fit their network better. For example, the 787-10 would probably struggle on HKG-US east coast routes.


You mean beyond range! The B779 (and A359/35K) would replace B77W Service there, depending on if first class is needed.

KA also has some old narrow-body planes needing replacement.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:13 pm

J343 wrote:
This question was probably asked a million times but can't seem to find answers. But why did CX not order the B787?


At the time of the decision, forum member zeke, who flies for CX, noted that one of the factors that influenced CX to choose the A350 was they wished to offer a common passenger experience across their widebody fleet in terms of seat width and pitch. The A330/A340 and 777 were configured with 18" seat widths (at 2+4+2 and 3+3+3, respectively) and the A350 could offer the same whereas the 787 was limited to 17" in the planned 3+3+3 configuration.

(And yes, at the time CX flew the 747-400 in 3+4+3 at 17" but that fleet was planned to eventually be withdrawn from service.)
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:15 pm

It's almost as if the A350 makes more sense than the 787 in certain scenarios?

Could this be true?
 
jfk777
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:15 am

The 787-9 was not big enough for Cathay. They wanted a larger airplane and the A350-900 a better fit. What replaces the A330-300 regionally is going to be interesting since the A350 & 777 are too big, regional use would be a miss-use. The 787-10 is probably the better fit but regionally configured A350 could be the answer with a proper medium haul J class. Flying only A350 and 777-9 keeps the CX fleet simple
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:18 am

[list=][/list]
SEPilot wrote:
Probably too small for their long haul routes. But the -10 would be ideal for their regional routes; maybe their regional planes are not ready for replacement. Or they want something bigger to replace the 773s.

For regional routes they acquired some second hand 773s. And I think 787-10 is still too small compared to 773s. Future A350 variants, if developed, will probably be closer to CX's needs
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:36 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Probably same reason why LH didn't. The -8 & -9 were too small for their large home markets and the -10 didn't have the payload-range they wanted (or hadn't been available at the time). The more capable A350 & 777-9 just fit their network better. For example, the 787-10 would probably struggle on HKG-US east coast routes.


You mean beyond range! The B779 (and A359/35K) would replace B77W Service there, depending on if first class is needed.

KA also has some old narrow-body planes needing replacement.


The narrowbody replacement is set, with 32x A321neo replacing 15x A320 and 8x A321(ceo).

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

c933103 wrote:
[list=][/list]
SEPilot wrote:
Probably too small for their long haul routes. But the -10 would be ideal for their regional routes; maybe their regional planes are not ready for replacement. Or they want something bigger to replace the 773s.

For regional routes they acquired some second hand 773s. And I think 787-10 is still too small compared to 773s. Future A350 variants, if developed, will probably be closer to CX's needs


Those ex-EK 773A I would say is more of a “bridge” solution anyway. CX does need new planes for their high capacity regional flying eventually.

They already use those 359 (and 35K) on busy routes like HKG-TPE/BKK/ICN/SIN/TYO/KIX, though, along with 77Ws, so maybe CX is just going to “abuse” their long-haul fleets on “regional” routes like EK does with their 77W and A380s.
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:43 am

They may still do it at some point. It just didn't make sense for them for whatever business reason that I'm sure they've thoroughly researched and decided on.
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juliuswong
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:46 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Probably same reason why LH didn't. The -8 & -9 were too small for their large home markets and the -10 didn't have the payload-range they wanted (or hadn't been available at the time). The more capable A350 & 777-9 just fit their network better. For example, the 787-10 would probably struggle on HKG-US east coast routes.


You mean beyond range! The B779 (and A359/35K) would replace B77W Service there, depending on if first class is needed.

KA also has some old narrow-body planes needing replacement.

Yes, the B77X and A359/A35K will eventually replace all the B773A/B77W. B77X will be premium heavy, maybe a new generation of F, J class and A359/A35K with lesser premium. However CX is well known to run their fleet to ground before retiring them or next heavy check is due. They are also open to take in second hand aircraft like what we have witnessed with SQ B744 fleet, now EK B773A. So, there don't see any urgent need to add B787 for the moment. Somehow I have a hunch they will place an order for B787-10 A330 fleet replacement in long run, it stands a good chance against A339neo. However Airbus will fight tooth-and-nail for it. The price tag may easily sway the decision.

CX Group has placed an order for 32 A321neo as A320ceo/A321ceo replacement, back in 2017. https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:49 am

Do all airlines have to order the 787?! I'm happy that CX, LH & DL didn't order it and hope they'll remain 787-free carriers. There's nothing worse than the crew dimming the windows while you're enjoying the view, a nightmare scenario that could only happen on the Dreamliner! :mad:
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:04 am

L0VE2FLY wrote:
Do all airlines have to order the 787?! I'm happy that CX, LH & DL didn't order it and hope they'll remain 787-free carriers. There's nothing worse than the crew dimming the windows while you're enjoying the view, a nightmare scenario that could only happen on the Dreamliner! :mad:

I must say I agree with you about the windows. I love to look out them; at least on the 77W I can sneak a peek every now and then as long as I am willing to withstand the withering, angry glances (and sometimes words) from the flight attendants. I guess on the 787 I would not have that option.
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J343
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:41 am

Thanks for the interesting responses everyone! For their older A330s, it would probably make more sense for CX to order the A330-900 as a replacement
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:07 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Probably same reason why LH didn't. The -8 & -9 were too small for their large home markets and the -10 didn't have the payload-range they wanted (or hadn't been available at the time). The more capable A350 & 777-9 just fit their network better. For example, the 787-10 would probably struggle on HKG-US east coast routes.


You mean beyond range! The B779 (and A359/35K) would replace B77W Service there, depending on if first class is needed.

KA also has some old narrow-body planes needing replacement.


The narrowbody replacement is set, with 32x A321neo replacing 15x A320 and 8x A321(ceo).

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

c933103 wrote:
[list=][/list]
SEPilot wrote:
Probably too small for their long haul routes. But the -10 would be ideal for their regional routes; maybe their regional planes are not ready for replacement. Or they want something bigger to replace the 773s.

For regional routes they acquired some second hand 773s. And I think 787-10 is still too small compared to 773s. Future A350 variants, if developed, will probably be closer to CX's needs


Those ex-EK 773A I would say is more of a “bridge” solution anyway. CX does need new planes for their high capacity regional flying eventually.

They already use those 359 (and 35K) on busy routes like HKG-TPE/BKK/ICN/SIN/TYO/KIX, though, along with 77Ws, so maybe CX is just going to “abuse” their long-haul fleets on “regional” routes like EK does with their 77W and A380s.


Regional 330 will be mostly replaced by 77W, which being replaced by 350 from long haul flights
 
a19901213
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:17 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

You mean beyond range! The B779 (and A359/35K) would replace B77W Service there, depending on if first class is needed.

KA also has some old narrow-body planes needing replacement.


The narrowbody replacement is set, with 32x A321neo replacing 15x A320 and 8x A321(ceo).

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

c933103 wrote:
[list=][/list]
For regional routes they acquired some second hand 773s. And I think 787-10 is still too small compared to 773s. Future A350 variants, if developed, will probably be closer to CX's needs


Those ex-EK 773A I would say is more of a “bridge” solution anyway. CX does need new planes for their high capacity regional flying eventually.

They already use those 359 (and 35K) on busy routes like HKG-TPE/BKK/ICN/SIN/TYO/KIX, though, along with 77Ws, so maybe CX is just going to “abuse” their long-haul fleets on “regional” routes like EK does with their 77W and A380s.


Regional 330 will be mostly replaced by 77W, which being replaced by 350 from long haul flights



Source?

77W is way larger than 330 and too much performances for short haul flights.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:17 am

SEPilot wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
Do all airlines have to order the 787?! I'm happy that CX, LH & DL didn't order it and hope they'll remain 787-free carriers. There's nothing worse than the crew dimming the windows while you're enjoying the view, a nightmare scenario that could only happen on the Dreamliner! :mad:

I must say I agree with you about the windows. I love to look out them; at least on the 77W I can sneak a peek every now and then as long as I am willing to withstand the withering, angry glances (and sometimes words) from the flight attendants. I guess on the 787 I would not have that option.


And don't forget about the narrow 3-3-3 seating on the 787.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:43 am

CX has a slot-restricted home airport, which favors larger jets. The A350 provided them with replacement + upgauge for longer-range A330 as well as A340 operations, AND an ultimate replacement for their three-class 777 fleet.

I can see CX being interested in the 787-10 for regional operations, but for the time being they have A330s and 777-300s for that role. And the 777-300s are bigger, which means they're more suited to the HKIA environment at present.
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:27 am

Stitch wrote:
J343 wrote:
This question was probably asked a million times but can't seem to find answers. But why did CX not order the B787?


At the time of the decision, forum member zeke, who flies for CX, noted that one of the factors that influenced CX to choose the A350 was they wished to offer a common passenger experience across their widebody fleet in terms of seat width and pitch. The A330/A340 and 777 were configured with 18" seat widths (at 2+4+2 and 3+3+3, respectively) and the A350 could offer the same whereas the 787 was limited to 17" in the planned 3+3+3 configuration.

(And yes, at the time CX flew the 747-400 in 3+4+3 at 17" but that fleet was planned to eventually be withdrawn from service.)


What's old is new again, with the 77Ws and 773s undergoing the 3-4-3 densification that will mean 17.2in seats. In March 2018 the airline said all of the fleet should be completed by the end of this year, but I'm not sure how on-track that is. All to say, seat width will probably play a smaller role in replacing the A330s than may have been originally thought.

A330 replacement will come onto the radar in some time, but as stated by others the fleet cascade taking place from the longhaul fleet into regional work will mean that it's not a major requirement yet. Perhaps more of the high-volume, shorthaul flying will transfer across to Cathay Dragon or (purely speculatively) a new budget unit. It seems that at the moment the management is focused on near-term restructuring, but I'm guessing that longer-term Cathay's fleet and how it operates may change, and that will change the type of aircraft that they require.
 
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flee
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:04 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
CX has a slot-restricted home airport, which favors larger jets. The A350 provided them with replacement + upgauge for longer-range A330 as well as A340 operations, AND an ultimate replacement for their three-class 777 fleet.

I can see CX being interested in the 787-10 for regional operations, but for the time being they have A330s and 777-300s for that role. And the 777-300s are bigger, which means they're more suited to the HKIA environment at present.

CX will be taking some ex-EK 777-300s too - I believe they are undergoing some reconfiguration at the moment.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:21 am

Ziyulu wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
Do all airlines have to order the 787?! I'm happy that CX, LH & DL didn't order it and hope they'll remain 787-free carriers. There's nothing worse than the crew dimming the windows while you're enjoying the view, a nightmare scenario that could only happen on the Dreamliner! :mad:

I must say I agree with you about the windows. I love to look out them; at least on the 77W I can sneak a peek every now and then as long as I am willing to withstand the withering, angry glances (and sometimes words) from the flight attendants. I guess on the 787 I would not have that option.


And don't forget about the narrow 3-3-3 seating on the 787.


With CX going 3-4-3 on the 777 fleet, the same 32"/17.2" seat can be replicated on the Dreamliners. CX could also go at least 350 total seats on the B78X, as I doubt any would fly a 10 hour mission. (The A350s are coming with 32"/18" seats and I suspect that the 777X will as well.) Are there any CX routes where 438 seats are really needed? (Oh, and as for the B773, CX was the launch customer of the non-ER version.)
 
drdisque
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:11 am

I can see them pitting the 787-10 against the A330-800 for replacement of their A330 fleet. The need isn't urgent so they can press for the best deal.
 
VRHNM
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:46 am

flee wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
CX has a slot-restricted home airport, which favors larger jets. The A350 provided them with replacement + upgauge for longer-range A330 as well as A340 operations, AND an ultimate replacement for their three-class 777 fleet.

I can see CX being interested in the 787-10 for regional operations, but for the time being they have A330s and 777-300s for that role. And the 777-300s are bigger, which means they're more suited to the HKIA environment at present.

CX will be taking some ex-EK 777-300s too - I believe they are undergoing some reconfiguration at the moment.


CX has already taken delivery of 2 ex-EK 773s, B-HNS and B-HNU (ex A6-EMR/T). They've been reconfigured into the 438 '77P' layout with 10 abreast economy class.
They are intended to replace the (originally) 5 777-200As. So far two have left the fleet already (B-HNL and B-HNB).
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:44 am

The main reason is the still have a relatively young A330 fleet. A lot of MSN1000+ in the fleet.

The ex-EK 773As probably helped absorbed some capacity. Also, CX is not doing as well as before due to the rise of Chinese airlines.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:10 am

CX Group could equally follow SQ and EI and order the A350 Regional. A lower MTOW and derated version which would offer commonality with the longhaul fleet.
 
tonystan
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:31 am

Having literally just landed back into DUB this morning on a CX A350 having completed DUB-HKG-MEL-HKG-DUB all on the aircraft I am delighted they went with it. It was a far better experience than any longhaul I have completed on a B787 and perfect for a trip from Europe all the way to Australia!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:02 pm

I agree that likely the 77W will move to regional flights. CX already flies them regionally between Long haul flights and their previous decisions with regional aircraft is often moving them from long haul to short haul ie 747, A340. However they will likely also need a few specific regional planes in about 10 years to replace a330s and 772/3
 
J343
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
I agree that likely the 77W will move to regional flights. CX already flies them regionally between Long haul flights and their previous decisions with regional aircraft is often moving them from long haul to short haul ie 747, A340. However they will likely also need a few specific regional planes in about 10 years to replace a330s and 772/3


That's a fair point. I remember flying with CX to DPS from LHR and the DPS was on a 772 and had 100% load. CX occasionally sends their 773 to CEB. Just curious, is CEB really that big of a market for CX?
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 pm

Of 58 A330 in Cathay group, 14 of them built before 2000 and all in regional configuration.
Those aircrafts can be replaced by newer long-haul configuration a330 and the nwer a330 could be replaced by A359 & A35K

And i dont think they will place order before 2021, which will enter the fleet after HKG 3rd runway start operation
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Why didn't Cathay Pacific order the 787?

Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:34 pm

For long-haul, the 787 was too small (and the 17" seats may also have been a factor).

For regional, the A330-300 and 773A have filled the role to date, but A330-300 replacement will be an interesting order to watch. 787-10, A330-900, and derated A350-900 will all have advantages and disadvantages for CX. I suspect pricing will have an outsize effect on this particular order as a result.

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