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keesje
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Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:14 pm

It seems John Ostrower has some information RR is working with Airbus to implement the new geared Ultrafan engine.

Apparently they let go the variable pitch fan. Which doesn't surprise me at all, in terms of mechanical, thermodynamic & aerodynamic complexity.

By 2025, around 1500 Trent XWB's should have left the RR assembly line. Apparently the geared technology is worth the new engine..

Image

https://theaircurrent.com/engine-development/airbus-and-rolls-royce-plot-ultrafan-for-a350neo/

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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:24 pm

So this will make it the A350neo, right?
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:25 pm

That's pretty quick, but in line with earlier rumors.

Wonder how Boeing will respond. Will RR make a bleedless version of the Ultrafan? Or will we see a GENx with a large CMC content?

Or is this the Airbus/RR response to GE developing a CMC version of the GENx?
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:39 pm

so if RR's ultrafan is ready by 2025, when does boeing NEO the 787?
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:46 pm

So many questions.
  • What kind of sfc delta?
  • Will this help them get on the 797? An future A321 (the rewinged version)? The 787?
  • Could this impact project Sunrise? I'm aware it's too late, but could we see an A350 purchase for 2021 which is then rolled back into the fleet to be replace by denser "NEO's" post 2025?
  • Could this be an enabler for the A350-1100? With the planned MTOW increases for the -1000 coupled with a fuel burn reduction, a "Straight Stretch" would seem more viable?
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:54 pm

It is great to have the unofficial news that A350 is likely to be the first commercial application for the UltraFan.

The way it is phrased it seems Jon doesn't think we'll see RR win the proposal to put UltraFan on NMA.

keesje wrote:
Apparently they let go the variable pitch fan. Which doesn't surprise me at all, in terms of mechanical, thermodynamic & aerodynamic complexity.

Yes, that was posted in a tech-ops thread but it's nice to have more confirmation.

Hopefully some day they do get around to doing variable pitch.

I agree it's complex, but in theory at least it should allow them to get rid of thrust reversers which also add weight and complexity and cost.

zkojq wrote:
So this will make it the A350neo, right?

Yep. It also shows that one CAN learn something from job adverts ( ref: viewtopic.php?t=1408963 ).

Next up: an all new CRFP narrow body from Airbus! :bigthumbsup:
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:56 pm

The variable pitch is what set this project apart. So its another GTF engine (soon all the three major players will have GTF engines). The variable pitch was to allow the engine not have thrust reverse doors or clamshells thus saving weight.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:56 pm

Could these go on the a380 too?

a380NEO to be announced tomorrow?

:stirthepot: :duck:
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:18 pm

So that would be an engine reaching up to 90..95klbs thrust or even beyond?
Quite the step.
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:19 pm

BaconButty wrote:
  • Could this be an enabler for the A350-1100? With the planned MTOW increases for the -1000 coupled with a fuel burn reduction, a "Straight Stretch" would seem more viable?


I would think so - and if the news about the A380's demise is true, then this may also hasten any decision to make a larger A350 variant with the re-engine.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:19 pm

william wrote:
The variable pitch is what set this project apart. So its another GTF engine (soon all the three major players will have GTF engines). The variable pitch was to allow the engine not have thrust reverse doors or clamshells thus saving weight.


The UltraFan as initially presented was quite ambitious I thought. So many new technologies packed into one engine. Dropping the variable pitch fan is probably a good idea till they perfect the other aspects first. One step at a time...
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:24 pm

I guess RR will offer the new engine technology for the A330, 787, A380, C929, 777, 797, any WB application, like they did with previous engines.

Any existing or new platform, why not the investments must be regained.

Image

For the A350 they can leave out the A350-800 thrust class and expand to 110k lbs, presenting it to 777-9 airline customers. Like the PW GTF's, it will probably be a very quiet engine. Which is totally relevant in the newly noise restricted airport environments.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:28 pm

william wrote:
The variable pitch is what set this project apart. So its another GTF engine (soon all the three major players will have GTF engines). The variable pitch was to allow the engine not have thrust reverse doors or clamshells thus saving weight.


Once bitten, twice shy.

The fan on the RB211 already killed the company once. Ever since, RR have been understandably reticent to take much risk with the fan.

Varying the pitch does all sorts of things nasty things to loading. Would a CFRP blade be lighter than a Ti blade given the variation in loading? What about FOD when your blade is at various pitches?

An Ultrafan that is dependent on the VP fan is one risk too far. An Ultrafan that is already a step improvement and can be upgraded with a VP fan (if they get it working) sounds much safer to me.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:42 pm

I feel like when it comes time to slap new engines on the 787 and A350, it would greatly benefit the 787 more than the A350. Depending on efficiency improvements it could put the 787 in a position to eat up on the A350.

It’s already a lighter aircraft that operates at lower weights and can operate on routes the A350 can. Plus hasn’t it been said the 787 fuselage is a bit overbuilt? If Boeing manages to shave off some weight in a addition to fuel savings I’m not sure what to think of an A350neo.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:55 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I feel like when it comes time to slap new engines on the 787 and A350, it would greatly benefit the 787 more than the A350. Depending on efficiency improvements it could put the 787 in a position to eat up on the A350.

It’s already a lighter aircraft that operates at lower weights and can operate on routes the A350 can. Plus hasn’t it been said the 787 fuselage is a bit overbuilt? If Boeing manages to shave off some weight in a addition to fuel savings I’m not sure what to think of an A350neo.


You are assuming that the A350 cannot be further improved or made lighter. I’m sure it can be improved just as much as the 787 can.

In any case I see the A350 and 787 as being differently optimised.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:01 pm

Kindanew wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I feel like when it comes time to slap new engines on the 787 and A350, it would greatly benefit the 787 more than the A350. Depending on efficiency improvements it could put the 787 in a position to eat up on the A350.

It’s already a lighter aircraft that operates at lower weights and can operate on routes the A350 can. Plus hasn’t it been said the 787 fuselage is a bit overbuilt? If Boeing manages to shave off some weight in a addition to fuel savings I’m not sure what to think of an A350neo.


You are assuming that the A350 cannot be further improved or made lighter. I’m sure it can be improved just as much as the 787 can.

In any case I see the A350 and 787 as being differently optimised.


The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:02 pm

keesje wrote:
For the A350 they can leave out the A350-800 thrust class and expand to 110k lbs, presenting it to 777-9 airline customers. Like the PW GTF's, it will probably be a very quiet engine. Which is totally relevant in the newly noise restricted airport environments.


Doesnt GE have exclusivity on the 777x?

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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:05 pm

Sounds like they went from "Advance (that no one wanted) --> VP ultrafan" to "utrafan without VP --> ultrafan with VP" but then on a slightly later schedule. Seems to make sense.

I would be really interested to know what MTOW, thurst levels and engine diameter such an A350NEO would have.
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:06 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.

Lower fuel burn could mean longer range or higher payload as the aircraft does not need to carry unnecessary fuel. That will make the A350Neo very flexible as it can trade range with payload.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:06 pm

A A350neo shifts the A350 “sweet spot” up to larger variants (-1000, eventually a further stretch). Major engine improvements for the 787 will cause the -9 and -10 to eat into the current A350-900 market. It will be up to a A330neoneo or new replacement to deal with that market. My guess is by 2025 Airbus will be gearing up to launch a A330 replacement for late 2020s/early 2030s EIS.

flee wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.

Lower fuel burn could mean longer range or higher payload as the aircraft does not need to carry unnecessary fuel. That will make the A350Neo very flexible as it can trade range with payload.


There is a practical limit to that though. At some point on a route with a given pax load you don’t need more payload, unless you are constantly carrying lead blocks or something.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:24 pm

BaconButty wrote:
So many questions.
  • What kind of sfc delta?
  • Will this help them get on the 797? An future A321 (the rewinged version)? The 787?
  • Could this impact project Sunrise? I'm aware it's too late, but could we see an A350 purchase for 2021 which is then rolled back into the fleet to be replace by denser "NEO's" post 2025?
  • Could this be an enabler for the A350-1100? With the planned MTOW increases for the -1000 coupled with a fuel burn reduction, a "Straight Stretch" would seem more viable?

The GTF will cut fuel burn 5.5%, plus, if you look at the video, it is a higher Mach # booster compressor and HPC. Add in the more efficient low turbine tech and we're talking 10% reduction.

Plus cheaper overhauls.

Possibly lighter engine (unless pressure ratio really boosted).

Pratt will bid a GTF for the 797. Don't get too excited about what is now mainstream tech.

What variable cycle tech is going in the engine? The LEAP has variable turbine cooling. CMCs? The GE9x will already have them.
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:27 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Possibly lighter engine (unless pressure ratio really boosted).


But then higher combustion efficiency and even slightly better sfo, right?

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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:28 pm

It's interesting how all the ultrafan speculations were for them to be on the A380neo, but then Airbus goes ahead and ends A380 production and gets those engines on the A350 instead.

Airbus is going through a huge strategy transformation.

ikolkyo wrote:

The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.



But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

If DL hauls a 50 ton payload on a 12 hr flight with a TOW of 275t on an A359 that didn't even have the latest aerodynamics/winglet improvements, then the 280t A359neo would be able carry a 50-ton payload on a what? 14-15 hr flight? That's just a different market segment than what the 789neo can do. The 789neo would be more suitable for other missions of course
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:39 pm

Polot wrote:
A A350neo shifts the A350 “sweet spot” up to larger variants (-1000, eventually a further stretch). Major engine improvements for the 787 will cause the -9 and -10 to eat into the current A350-900 market. It will be up to a A330neoneo or new replacement to deal with that market. My guess is by 2025 Airbus will be gearing up to launch a A330 replacement for late 2020s/early 2030s EIS.

True. However, more than 800 777-300ERs have been built and the majority of those will have to be replaced around 2025 to 2030. At least the A350-1000 should do fine. Certainly Boeing is hoping to grab some of that with the 777-9 but so far, few airlines have gone that way. Further, the 787 just recently received a major engine upgrade in form of the Trent 1000-TEN. I'm not sure how much there is left to gain without a completely new engine, i. e. a 787max.

One thing Airbus desperately needs, though, is a lower production cost of the A350. Boeing has cut costs aggresively on the 787 and will do the same for the 797. Airbus has to chatch up. Maybe they can divert some resources from the ending A380 program towards a more efficient A350 production.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:44 pm

Interesting news! It makes me wonder now if DL didn't delay its last batch of A350s with the expectation they'll be able to get the UltraFan on those birds.
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:47 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I feel like when it comes time to slap new engines on the 787 and A350, it would greatly benefit the 787 more than the A350. Depending on efficiency improvements it could put the 787 in a position to eat up on the A350.

It’s already a lighter aircraft that operates at lower weights and can operate on routes the A350 can. Plus hasn’t it been said the 787 fuselage is a bit overbuilt? If Boeing manages to shave off some weight in a addition to fuel savings I’m not sure what to think of an A350neo.


You are assuming that the A350 cannot be further improved or made lighter. I’m sure it can be improved just as much as the 787 can.

In any case I see the A350 and 787 as being differently optimised.


The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.


Your reasoning ignores the fact that the A350 can carry a larger payload.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:54 pm

OA412 wrote:
Interesting news! It makes me wonder now if DL didn't delay its last batch of A350s with the expectation they'll be able to get the UltraFan on those birds.


Agreed. Could it be this is how they are keeping the EY order? EY wouldn't refuse. They also get to wait 7+ years before they have to get the new frames. All the time to manage their CAPEX.


After A350 lost EK and AA orders, Airbus must've got a wake up call not to lose another major order.
Last edited by Eyad89 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:57 pm

OA412 wrote:
Interesting news! It makes me wonder now if DL didn't delay its last batch of A350s with the expectation they'll be able to get the UltraFan on those birds.


Wonder what UA will decide regarding its own A350 order.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:05 pm

Erebus wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Interesting news! It makes me wonder now if DL didn't delay its last batch of A350s with the expectation they'll be able to get the UltraFan on those birds.


Wonder what UA will decide regarding its own A350 order.

Negotiate* :wink:

This seems like exciting news and as was pointed out earlier in he thread this was news initially leaked via job advert as was the previous MTOW increase for the A330. It seems like there are interesting tactics of information handling going on with Beth airbus and Boeing lately.

Maybe tomorrow’s announcement isn’t of a shutting down of the A380 program after all ...

Either way I think tonight would be a good time to buy some shares in airbus even if just for a short term.

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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Using the name "neo"... it has precedent, primarily in models that are probably their last iteration. Does anyone think this will be the last engine option on the A350? What tag would they use next? "NewerEO?" (this is a joke)
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

Vs the -9. Don’t forget about the -10. SFC improvements will boost that plane’s range, and eventually it could get to a point where it’s range is good enough for most missions in that size arena (similar to A333 vs 77E).

mxaxai wrote:
Polot wrote:
A A350neo shifts the A350 “sweet spot” up to larger variants (-1000, eventually a further stretch). Major engine improvements for the 787 will cause the -9 and -10 to eat into the current A350-900 market. It will be up to a A330neoneo or new replacement to deal with that market. My guess is by 2025 Airbus will be gearing up to launch a A330 replacement for late 2020s/early 2030s EIS.

True. However, more than 800 777-300ERs have been built and the majority of those will have to be replaced around 2025 to 2030. At least the A350-1000 should do fine. Certainly Boeing is hoping to grab some of that with the 777-9 but so far, few airlines have gone that way. Further, the 787 just recently received a major engine upgrade in form of the Trent 1000-TEN. I'm not sure how much there is left to gain without a completely new engine, i. e. a 787max.

I mean this is a thread about A350s receiving completely new engines, and the TXWB we are talking about replacing is newer than most 787 engines.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:24 pm

Polot wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

Vs the -9. Don’t forget about the -10. SFC improvements will boost that plane’s range, and eventually it could get to a point where it’s range is good enough for most missions in that size arena (similar to A333 vs 77E).

mxaxai wrote:
Polot wrote:
A A350neo shifts the A350 “sweet spot” up to larger variants (-1000, eventually a further stretch). Major engine improvements for the 787 will cause the -9 and -10 to eat into the current A350-900 market. It will be up to a A330neoneo or new replacement to deal with that market. My guess is by 2025 Airbus will be gearing up to launch a A330 replacement for late 2020s/early 2030s EIS.

True. However, more than 800 777-300ERs have been built and the majority of those will have to be replaced around 2025 to 2030. At least the A350-1000 should do fine. Certainly Boeing is hoping to grab some of that with the 777-9 but so far, few airlines have gone that way. Further, the 787 just recently received a major engine upgrade in form of the Trent 1000-TEN. I'm not sure how much there is left to gain without a completely new engine, i. e. a 787max.

I mean this is a thread about A350s receiving completely new engines, and the TXWB we are talking about replacing is newer than most 787 engines.



Did you miss the part where 787 can't put enough larger diameter engines because of its lower weight ?
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:30 pm

Has anyone asked the simple question whether 2025 is a reasonable timing for a new engine considering the level of backlog they have today?
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 pm

VV wrote:
Has anyone asked the simple question whether 2025 is a reasonable timing for a new engine considering the level of backlog they have today?


2025 can mean anything, it could be the start of testing and maybe EIS in 2027 and the current edition selling until 2030 at least.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:38 pm

WIederling wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Higher bypass ratios require bigger engine diameter and as can be seen here , the current 787 engine is hugging the ground.
https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default ... 1516638007


Forward and UP. They already know how to do MCAS :-)

Yep, another MAX. The added engine weight will just have to be much less than the saved fuel burn.

As optimal as the A350 with ultra? Does it have to be with the lighter weight? ;)

The A vs. B has a long way to go.

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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:42 pm

Vladex wrote:
VV wrote:
Has anyone asked the simple question whether 2025 is a reasonable timing for a new engine considering the level of backlog they have today?


2025 can mean anything, it could be the start of testing and maybe EIS in 2027 and the current edition selling until 2030 at least.


RR has stated several times that EIS for the Ultrafan will be 2025. That goal hasn't shifted. Yet, anyway.
 
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:44 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
It's interesting how all the ultrafan speculations were for them to be on the A380neo, but then Airbus goes ahead and ends A380 production and gets those engines on the A350 instead.

Airbus is going through a huge strategy transformation.

ikolkyo wrote:

The A350 is always going to be a heavier aircraft. Just look at the operating weights for example. The 787 tops out at 254t and the A359 at 280t. The A350 and 787 already have some long legs and new engines and improvements to both will make them even longer. At that point the lighter aircraft would make more sense economically. But it’s too early tell, no one knows any details about either but that is just my quick take on the matter.



But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

If DL hauls a 50 ton payload on a 12 hr flight with a TOW of 275t on an A359 that didn't even have the latest aerodynamics/winglet improvements, then the 280t A359neo would be able carry a 50-ton payload on a what? 14-15 hr flight? That's just a different market segment than what the 789neo can do. The 789neo would be more suitable for other missions of course


keesje pointed out that it will be offered on the A380.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 pm

The bigger question is whether Airbus will attempt to make it an A350 exclusive for say five years or something before it can trickle down to something 787/797 can hang from its wings.

And the even bigger bigger question is what does GE have cooking, other than CMCs, after buying all the GTF IP... You all think they're really going to sit on their butt and let PW and RR have all the geared fun?
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:48 pm

Vladex wrote:
VV wrote:
Has anyone asked the simple question whether 2025 is a reasonable timing for a new engine considering the level of backlog they have today?


2025 can mean anything, it could be the start of testing and maybe EIS in 2027 and the current edition selling until 2030 at least.


I can think of a few more ways around it:

- Increase near term production rates
- Introduce a stretch version first in 2025, A350-1100, and then phase-in the smaller variants in the following years.
- Get customers to convert
- Some orders get cancelled, e.g. EY?
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:49 pm

VV wrote:
Has anyone asked the simple question whether 2025 is a reasonable timing for a new engine considering the level of backlog they have today?

They have been working on it in the background and so don’t need normal ramp up times. This the right thread? :duck:

Fred


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Polot
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:51 pm

Vladex wrote:
Polot wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

Vs the -9. Don’t forget about the -10. SFC improvements will boost that plane’s range, and eventually it could get to a point where it’s range is good enough for most missions in that size arena (similar to A333 vs 77E).

mxaxai wrote:
True. However, more than 800 777-300ERs have been built and the majority of those will have to be replaced around 2025 to 2030. At least the A350-1000 should do fine. Certainly Boeing is hoping to grab some of that with the 777-9 but so far, few airlines have gone that way. Further, the 787 just recently received a major engine upgrade in form of the Trent 1000-TEN. I'm not sure how much there is left to gain without a completely new engine, i. e. a 787max.

I mean this is a thread about A350s receiving completely new engines, and the TXWB we are talking about replacing is newer than most 787 engines.



Did you miss the part where 787 can't put enough larger diameter engines because of its lower weight ?

My mistake. I missed the part where you are the complete expert in both the 787 and all future engine developments, and know 100% what can and cannot go on the plane. You are right though, it is impossible to ever put a better engine on the 787. All future engine development is for engines too large to fit a 787, or too large to modify a 787 to make it work. GE and RR have zero incentive to ever try an improve a jet that will have ~1300 frames sold with a large installed customer base.
 
bhill
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:45 pm

"Variable pitch?" How much? It would seem to me that something spinning that fast would not like to change pitch direction all that much without some serious stress on the fan..
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:55 pm

keesje wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
It's interesting how all the ultrafan speculations were for them to be on the A380neo, but then Airbus goes ahead and ends A380 production and gets those engines on the A350 instead.

Airbus is going through a huge strategy transformation.




But the A359 can simply seat 10% more passengers. They don't always have to go head to head.

If DL hauls a 50 ton payload on a 12 hr flight with a TOW of 275t on an A359 that didn't even have the latest aerodynamics/winglet improvements, then the 280t A359neo would be able carry a 50-ton payload on a what? 14-15 hr flight? That's just a different market segment than what the 789neo can do. The 789neo would be more suitable for other missions of course


keesje pointed out that it will be offered on the A380.


:liar:


:lol:

keesje wrote:
I guess RR will offer the new engine technology for the A330, 787, A380, C929, 777, 797, any WB application, like they did with previous engines.

Any existing or new platform, why not the investments must be regained.

Image

For the A350 they can leave out the A350-800 thrust class and expand to 110k lbs, presenting it to 777-9 airline customers. Like the PW GTF's, it will probably be a very quiet engine. Which is totally relevant in the newly noise restricted airport environments.


My bad if I got that wrong. I assumed you got the info from behind the paywall.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:07 pm

If I were Boeing, this would solidify my desire to get NMA into the air ASAP.

An A350neo means a 787 re-engine is coming too. It will be interesting to see whether Airbus persuades RR to go exclusive on the A350, ceding the market for re-engined 787s to GE, or whether RR brings this technology to the 787 along the same timeframe. In either event, expect a GE response. Who knows if it will be characterized as a major PIP for the GEnx or as something new.

The 787 re-engine will give the 787-10 sufficient range to fly all mainstream intercontinental routes, turn the 787-9 into a ULH product, and render the 787-8 superfluous. That will open up some space for double-stretched and/or heavier versions of NMA.
 
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par13del
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:11 pm

seabosdca wrote:
It will be interesting to see whether Airbus persuades RR to go exclusive on the A350,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't RR already exclusive on the A350?
Unless you mean RR new tech will never be on a Boeing product, if GTF is the way of the future, its not a specific engine but primary engine technology.
 
LDRA
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:17 pm

It is aimmed at 777X
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:40 pm

par13del wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
It will be interesting to see whether Airbus persuades RR to go exclusive on the A350,

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't RR already exclusive on the A350?
Unless you mean RR new tech will never be on a Boeing product, if GTF is the way of the future, its not a specific engine but primary engine technology.


Technically RR only has exclusivity on the A350-1000.

On the 900, Airbus wanted GE on board but they refused to provide something which met the fuel consumption airbus wanted.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:02 pm

par13del wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't RR already exclusive on the A350?
Unless you mean RR new tech will never be on a Boeing product, if GTF is the way of the future, its not a specific engine but primary engine technology.


Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that RR would exclusively offer the new engine technology to Airbus, at least for some period of time. The question is whether the 787 re-engine will be RR + GE or GE only.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:17 pm

seabosdca wrote:
par13del wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't RR already exclusive on the A350?
Unless you mean RR new tech will never be on a Boeing product, if GTF is the way of the future, its not a specific engine but primary engine technology.


Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that RR would exclusively offer the new engine technology to Airbus, at least for some period of time. The question is whether the 787 re-engine will be RR + GE or GE only.


IMO the Ultrafan will be offered on the 787, but at a later time.
The Ultrafan is a scalable design, so the whole purpose should be to scale it for as many types as possible for good ROI and low maintenance costs. I think Airbus would only get exclusivity rights for a limited time period.
 
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kmz
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Re: Airbus A350 to have RR Ultrafan Engines from ~2025, Ostrower

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:37 pm

Isn't 2025 also the planned EIS for the NMA? Maybe Airbus wants to create engineering constraints at Boeing by opening a front which was not anticipated? And tomorrow they will announce the A380 UltraFan... :stirthepot:

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